I could be wrong (probably am) but aren't Canada's taxes cheaper than ours in the US? I think the income tax is much lower...yet somehow they still manage an amazing health care system.
Nope....I believe that they are indeed higher in the Great White North than what we pay down here.
i believe you are correct, and beyond that....even WITH higher income taxes to subsidize healthcare and whatever else, i bet in the end we pay *more* due to our fucked health insurance industry.
oh and as to the lotto discussion....um....it's income, pure and simple. you make $$$ in the stock market, you pay tax, you make $$$ winning the lottery, you pay tax. and so it goes. passive income is passive income. and hey, at least you get the first $600 tax free. :P
i believe you are correct, and beyond that....even WITH higher income taxes to subsidize healthcare and whatever else, i bet in the end we pay *more* due to our fucked health insurance industry.
Right on sista!
~I want to realize brotherhood or identity not merely with the beings called human, but I want to realize identity with all life, even with such things as crawl upon earth.~
Mohandas K. Gandhi
~I once had a sparrow alight upon my shoulder for a moment, while I was hoeing in a village garden, and I felt that I was more distinguished by that circumstance than I should have been by any epaulette I could have worn.~
Henry David Thoreau
Look All I did was post a doctors opinion ok fucking get over your self :x
no, that's not all you did. you posted the doctors opinion, and when people provided facts as to why certain things he said were incorrect, you said this...
Look All I did was post a doctors opinion ok fucking get over your self :x
no, that's not all you did. you posted the doctors opinion, and when people provided facts as to why certain things he said were incorrect, you said this...
Since this thread seems to address doctors' opinions of the current healthcare system, here's another interesting article written by a physician. Sorry for the length, but it's a good read, and eloquently written. It was published in 2005 in the newsletter of a university hospital, and written in part to explain why he was resigning.
One of the most rewarding aspects in patient care is the privilege to hear stories. These stories can often inform us about our own lives as well as developments in society around us. So listen as I tell you of my experience.
In the late 1990’s, there was a graduate student who took a year off from training in order to spend time with his young family. He worked a series of part time jobs to pay the bills. They lived in a slow rural setting and enjoyed the respite that the year off was giving them. During this time, his wife became pregnant with their second child. Their first child, a daughter, was born healthy. However, a prenatal ultrasound showed a potential problem with their daughter’s kidneys. Remember that this occurs in the early days of the widespread application of ultrasound to routine healthy pregnancies. There was still much that was not known. And medicine being what it is, any abnormality is considered a problem until proven otherwise. In this case, all the subsequent testing turned out to be normal. But it came at the expense of pain and discomfort to their newborn daughter, a prolonged stay in the hospital and the worry of her parents and extended family. For any of you that have been through anything like this, you know that no matter the outcome, these events in your life are not insignificant. So with the second pregnancy, they wanted to take a different approach—which they did. Along with their obstetrician, they agreed to try and avoid any unnecessary testing unless there was a clear medical indication.
The clear crisp days of autumn with the changing leaves turned to winter with occasional snowfall which turned to a vibrant spring full of daffodils, tulips and blooming dogwood trees. Life, and the seasons that usher it along, was taking its course. And by this time the second pregnancy was blooming too. But around the 38th week, there were some subtle changes that might indicate a problem. They could also be a variant of normal. Clearly there was no emergency. But was there an important message here?
Despite some trepidation that there could be another false positive this time around, an ultrasound was ordered and performed. There was indeed a problem. A maternal-fetal medicine and genetics consult were obtained. Myriad specialists became involved. Things quickly became even more intense. Two days later, labor was induced. And after three days of a pitocin drip, a baby boy was born. Less than 72 hours after the birth, this baby boy died. There were no mistakes in this case. All the appropriate medical care was provided. As tragic as it was, it was simply one of the cruelties of Mother Nature. Everyone involved in this case grieved. But life moved on. On some level the death took its toll on the marriage, and the parents divorced several years later. But before their divorce, the family had two additional children, and all three children are healthy and thriving today.
The family involved in this story is mine. I was a 25-year-old medical school graduate taking a year off before starting residency. I didn’t have health insurance because I was unable to get it. We were approached about finances while we were in the hospital. Our financial information was taken, and we later made a payment plan and paid our bill in full. But at no time during this story was I told that unless I could pay at least 50% of the anticipated cost of my care I might have to reschedule either the ultrasound or the consultation. This is the current policy of this medical center for non-emergent care for self-pay patients or for patients who don’t have their co-pay. At the earliest sign of the problems in the pregnancy in my story, there was no emergency. No one could have known the extent of the problem until the ultrasound was performed. Early intervention was the key in my case from preventing an awful situation from becoming a fullblown tragedy. It might have saved another life. At the very least, it saved a lot of money. Since we knew the diagnosis going in, we had some time to plan for the care of our son. We elected comfort care, not the ICU, since the outcome was certain. Having this time was a godsend. We could plan to deliver higher quality care appropriate for the circumstances without using more costly resources inappropriately.
Confronting someone up front with the dollar amount of his or her pain is an enormous barrier that I think few of us have experienced. But now we can no longer avoid the issue. Clerks are scripted to tell patients “Co-pays and/or down payments are expected to be paid at the time of service. If you cannot make this payment, you may be rescheduled.” This seems innocuous enough, and there is an option to have a nurse triage you. But how many times have we seen a triage note describe one thing, and it turns out to be something completely different that we would have never known if we hadn’t had an actual face-to-face encounter? The truth is, we cannot know unless we are there to ask. I know that there will be people who will read this and angrily denounce my analogy saying that such a thing would never happen here. But those of us on the front lines know that it happens all the time. It’s one thing to discriminate based on sound medical judgment. It’s another to do so primarily for financial reasons. We take an oath that in effect pledges us not to.
I do not believe that providing healthcare requires you to do something for nothing. I am a very strong believer in personal responsibility. And I don’t like it when people take advantage of me. But our current policy is prejudicial. It assumes that people can’t or won’t pay. A senior leader in our institution recently told a large group of physicians and administrators that the institution has no obligation to help self-pay patients unless they are in our emergency room. I heard another say that healthcare is a commodity much like car maintenance or buying bread at the store. It should be paid for at the time of purchase. It seems easier these days to blame the people like I was—a person without health insurance—for our institutional debts. We seem to have shifted from placing responsibility on our elected leaders for a failing national system of healthcare to placing responsibility on individuals in our community who don’t have insurance or public assistance.
I think we can do a better job balancing our fiscal and ethical responsibilities. What if we told patients, “Your health is important to us. Unfortunately, we cannot offer you these services for free. So we will require you to meet with a financial counselor to help you pay for the cost of your care after your doctor determines what is medically necessary. There may be assistance programs that you can apply for. But today, your health is the most important thing.” This is the approach we took when I ran a clinic in one of the poorest counties in the state. I had patients driving from other counties and across the Arizona border to receive care at my clinic. Some of them had insurance, but most did not. There was no county indigent program. We had very few people that abused this system. Patients knew first and foremost that we cared about them. They also knew that they had a responsibility to keep the clinic afloat. There was a genuine partnership between the community and the health center. And every year we turned a profit and expanded our operations until we were the largest non-governmental employer in the county.
I don’t understand why we aren’t having more institutional discussions about the larger national health care crisis that is in large part responsible for our dilemma. Why aren’t we, as a research institution, researching ways to provide high-quality, low-cost care to the uninsured? Instead we seem to be handed only one solution that lays much of the blame at the feet of the poor. We are encouraged to create a two-tiered system of care. This sets a dangerous precedent for the institution. And I don’t know how to role model this for our students.
I am troubled enough by this that after working here for eight years, it has become a significant part of
my decision to leave the institution. It’s a tough call. But as a rank and file faculty member without any particular authority or influence, I don’t feel empowered to change this situation or even to offer up any solutions that can be taken seriously. And I am tired of wrestling with my conscience. I want to wake up each day being able to act upon it. This story is an attempt to do just that. My hope is, without diminishing the importance of the financial problems we face, to generate wider discussion and more creative solutions for our uninsured patients. I intend to do what I can in the remaining few months that I have here. But then it will be up to you to help people that, as my story illustrates, are not too different
from me.
Nice story. Thanks for sharing. Doctors in Canada don't make nearly what the doctors in the U.S. do, but they are not forced to wrestle with a situation like that. And they still make a pretty nice salary. Comfortable living to say the least.
Look All I did was post a doctors opinion ok fucking get over your self :x
no, that's not all you did. you posted the doctors opinion, and when people provided facts as to why certain things he said were incorrect, you said this...
with all due respect I will agree with the doc. Over you any day when it comes to healthcare
educate yourself. one doctors opinion, does not = facts.
what facts ? I see nothing as far as facts go. no links to anything you posted just your opinion :roll:
the 47 million uninsured is the working number that they have established over the last 1.5 years. turn on any tv news channel (other than fox) and you will hear that number several times a day. for sure.
also did you see the poll tht said something like 11% of canadiens are not happy with their healthcare system but 88% of those polled would not switch to the private for profit system that is in the US? i will try to find a link. i saw it on a few sites yesterday. many of the rest of these posts in this thread are anecdotal and qualitative in nature, which are experiences from people from the US and other countries, as well as those from health care workers in both systems. there is validity in peoples' experiences, and you don't need a ton of links for that. you can learn from talking to other people just as well as from reading links.
"You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry." - Lincoln
Nice story. Thanks for sharing. Doctors in Canada don't make nearly what the doctors in the U.S. do, but they are not forced to wrestle with a situation like that. And they still make a pretty nice salary. Comfortable living to say the least.
It's interesting that I just ran across this newsletter tonight as I was cleaning out some boxes. I think it's also timely that, over dinner with two physician friends last night, both of them told similar stories (and one actually cried) about how this system doesn't allow them to provide the care they've devoted their lives to providing.
Comments
i believe you are correct, and beyond that....even WITH higher income taxes to subsidize healthcare and whatever else, i bet in the end we pay *more* due to our fucked health insurance industry.
oh and as to the lotto discussion....um....it's income, pure and simple. you make $$$ in the stock market, you pay tax, you make $$$ winning the lottery, you pay tax. and so it goes. passive income is passive income. and hey, at least you get the first $600 tax free. :P
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
Mohandas K. Gandhi
~I once had a sparrow alight upon my shoulder for a moment, while I was hoeing in a village garden, and I felt that I was more distinguished by that circumstance than I should have been by any epaulette I could have worn.~
Henry David Thoreau
educate yourself. one doctors opinion, does not = facts.
also did you see the poll tht said something like 11% of canadiens are not happy with their healthcare system but 88% of those polled would not switch to the private for profit system that is in the US? i will try to find a link. i saw it on a few sites yesterday. many of the rest of these posts in this thread are anecdotal and qualitative in nature, which are experiences from people from the US and other countries, as well as those from health care workers in both systems. there is validity in peoples' experiences, and you don't need a ton of links for that. you can learn from talking to other people just as well as from reading links.
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
It's interesting that I just ran across this newsletter tonight as I was cleaning out some boxes. I think it's also timely that, over dinner with two physician friends last night, both of them told similar stories (and one actually cried) about how this system doesn't allow them to provide the care they've devoted their lives to providing.