Please post your views on religion, if you personally are religious, and your views on why their is or isnt a God?
My own story: My mom's side of the family are typical Italian Catholics. They were raised catholic, attended church and went to Catholic schools.
I never or hardly ever went to church as a kid, and if we did it was just for Easter or Christmas.
My beliefs tend to fall in line with Buddhist or Taoist ideas. Or Native American ideas The idea that God is everywhere and in everything, a blade of grass, or flowers, or trees and so on. But I dont think I would pin myself as one specific religion. I dont attend any church though.
I have major problems with religion in terms of how it is used to justify horrendous things like war, murder, sexism and homophobia.
Lately I have been tending towards the Modest Mouse school of ideology. Just questioning, and thinking, how I feel its kind of insane for people to waste their lives on earth wondering and worrying about getting into heaven or hell, two places that may or may not exist, all the while ignoring the only thing that is for sure, the now, the present.
As a Marxist I also think religion is harmful in some sense. Beyond the wars and violence committed in its name, I think you have people, coming together, banding together in a common cause, raising their hands up. They feel lost. They are down and out. And they are praying to this individual who may or may not exist. More powerful results would come, I think, by banding together and forming a political organization, or activist group.
I also wonder, if God existed, why would he allow all the death, destruction and murder to occur? Why the wars? The rape? Assaults? Racism? What type of God would allow that to occur?
Eckhart Tolle, author of the Power of Now, suggested that, the reason why wars, death and violence occur, is that it forces us to choose, forces us to look at ourselves, to become who we really want to be, to wake up. I think thats an interesting idea.
So whats your view on it all?
I believe in God. If people followed Gods word we wouldnt have war, murders ect. Death is nothing, we have to die to get to heaven or hell. People freak out about death but its ok because we must die to live forever. Man makes his own choice in life. Life is about following God, not doing what you want. He wants faithful worshipers and he gives us the choice to follow him or burn in hell. Man creates wars, man rapes, man causes racism. If man followed God it would be a great world to live in. But people these days people try to take God out of our lives. People are to busy watching tv or reading books that mean nothing in this life and looking in the mirror. Helping your fellow man and following God is what life is about.
My beliefs tend to fall in line with Buddhist or Taoist ideas. Or Native American ideas The idea that God is everywhere and in everything, a blade of grass, or flowers, or trees and so on. But I dont think I would pin myself as one specific religion. I dont attend any church though.
This is where I stand...the more I read on Buddhism, the more I feel that it makes sense...the gods (yes, "gods" plural and with a lower case g) are everywhere, and in everything
im still, fergenst it. but i do have a gripe with some reasoning pro-god people give. They maintain that someone had to create everything, but they want to shy away from the answer of what created god. it seems there are always double standards on how these questions can be answered coming from the religious.
I wish I believed in God. Having faith is a beautiful thing. I'm way too much of a skeptic. I think if you feel like you're trying to believe in something, you're probably fooling yourself.
I believe in God. If people followed Gods word we wouldnt have war, murders ect. Death is nothing, we have to die to get to heaven or hell. People freak out about death but its ok because we must die to live forever. Man makes his own choice in life. Life is about following God, not doing what you want. He wants faithful worshipers and he gives us the choice to follow him or burn in hell. Man creates wars, man rapes, man causes racism. If man followed God it would be a great world to live in. But people these days people try to take God out of our lives. People are to busy watching tv or reading books that mean nothing in this life and looking in the mirror. Helping your fellow man and following God is what life is about.
I wish I believed in God. Having faith is a beautiful thing. I'm way too much of a skeptic. I think if you feel like you're trying to believe in something, you're probably fooling yourself.
I respect those who believe.
me too, until I'm told I'll burn for eternity if I believe othewise.
I'm with you....WAY too skeptical. I dont BELIEVE in...well....anything, really...let alone something so intangible...there were a lot of people that believed the earth was flat...
me too, until I'm told I'll burn for eternity if I believe othewise.
Agreed...but I've met so few of THOSE people. Amazing how much they stand out though.
I have no desire to try to convince anyone that God doesn't exist. That's not my place.
I teach my children about many different religions and in the end, it's up to them to decide. When my son asked if I believed in God and heaven I said "No, I don't. But a lot of people do." He told me he does (as did I when I was six too). I told him that it's one of the greatest mysteries about the world, and that I think it's great if he believes in God. We all need to show a little more respect for each others beliefs.
me too, until I'm told I'll burn for eternity if I believe othewise.
Agreed...but I've met so few of THOSE people. Amazing how much they stand out though.
I have no desire to try to convince anyone that God doesn't exist. That's not my place.
I teach my children about many different religions and in the end, it's up to them to decide. When my son asked if I believed in God and heaven I said "No, I don't. But a lot of people do." He told me he does (as did I when I was six too). I told him that it's one of the greatest mysteries about the world, and that I think it's great if he believes in God. We all need to show a little more respect for each others beliefs.
yup. I encourage my kids to find their own way, and frame my responses to their questions in ways that are open to interpretation, or at least not definitive 'yes or no' answers...
And ya, no point trying to disprove someone's faith....faith is very personal and not really a debatable topic. I do, at times, have trouble accepting that people 'believe' in something because of....well...their belief in it. faith is just not logical to me - it's circular reasoning. For some reason I'm picturing that Slayer fan youtube vid fanch posted last week...'you know.....you just know'
No I don't believe in god. We're on the 21st century and people still believe in bronze age gods, why people belive weird things is a much fun question.
"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it"
Neil deGrasse Tyson
I have been struggling lately and laying awake at night fearing death. I was never brought up around religeon. Im not sure if I really believe all that stuff, and Im not really that educated in it. It all sounds too vague and is based too much in faith. I am more of a facts/tangibility kind of guy.
It sucks. I really hope there is some sort of afterlife and once you go, it isnt it.
I'm Agnostic.... who am I to say what happens in the afterlife? I'll know it when I get there (or, I won't know anything because I will have ceased to exist).
As long as one doesn't try to push their religious beliefs on me, I have no problems with religion in and of itself. I do however, have issues with the rip off artist evangelicals who claim to be the second coming of Christ... or the ones that spend an hour yelling "praise Jesus" and begging for cash. Unfortunately, the ones that tend to get sucked in the most by those so called "chosen ones" are lower income households. Those preachers don't believe half of what they preach, they just believe in the mighty pocketbook.
And don't even get me started on those crazy cults (i.e. Scientology, etc...), those all belong under the definition of "scam" or "bat shit crazy".
Has anyone ever seen "Ancient Aliens"? There is more circumstantial evidence that the early civilizations were visited by Aliens than there is anything regarding God's existence. Now to me that is interesting... although I don't necessarily believe it, it's powerful enough to make me at least wonder a bit. I haven't wondered about religion since I was maybe 10 years old.
Pitt 98, Pitt 00, Cleveland 03, Pitt 03, State College 03, Toledo 04, Toronto 05, Pitt 05, Cleveland 06, Pitt 06 & Chicago 07, Chicago 1&2 09, Philly 2,3,4 09, Cleveland 10, Columbus 10, Alpine Valley 1& 2 11
Man-made empiricism might provide tools to deconstruct the dogma, tenets and narratives of organised religion. However, when we stop anthropomorphising or localising concepts of a vast, interdimensional network of extra-universal consciousness and behold the notion of God as something intrinsic to our pre-linguistic understanding, then we are probably coming closer to realising the supreme nature of ourselves and our spiritual potentiality beyond language, beyond dictates of reason, and into the Infinite.
Please post your views on religion, if you personally are religious, and your views on why their is or isnt a God?
My own story: My mom's side of the family are typical Italian Catholics. They were raised catholic, attended church and went to Catholic schools.
I never or hardly ever went to church as a kid, and if we did it was just for Easter or Christmas.
My beliefs tend to fall in line with Buddhist or Taoist ideas. Or Native American ideas The idea that God is everywhere and in everything, a blade of grass, or flowers, or trees and so on. But I dont think I would pin myself as one specific religion. I dont attend any church though.
I have major problems with religion in terms of how it is used to justify horrendous things like war, murder, sexism and homophobia.
Lately I have been tending towards the Modest Mouse school of ideology. Just questioning, and thinking, how I feel its kind of insane for people to waste their lives on earth wondering and worrying about getting into heaven or hell, two places that may or may not exist, all the while ignoring the only thing that is for sure, the now, the present.
As a Marxist I also think religion is harmful in some sense. Beyond the wars and violence committed in its name, I think you have people, coming together, banding together in a common cause, raising their hands up. They feel lost. They are down and out. And they are praying to this individual who may or may not exist. More powerful results would come, I think, by banding together and forming a political organization, or activist group.
I also wonder, if God existed, why would he allow all the death, destruction and murder to occur? Why the wars? The rape? Assaults? Racism? What type of God would allow that to occur?
Eckhart Tolle, author of the Power of Now, suggested that, the reason why wars, death and violence occur, is that it forces us to choose, forces us to look at ourselves, to become who we really want to be, to wake up. I think thats an interesting idea.
So whats your view on it all?
I believe in God. If people followed Gods word we wouldnt have war, murders ect. Death is nothing, we have to die to get to heaven or hell. People freak out about death but its ok because we must die to live forever. Man makes his own choice in life. Life is about following God, not doing what you want. He wants faithful worshipers and he gives us the choice to follow him or burn in hell. Man creates wars, man rapes, man causes racism. If man followed God it would be a great world to live in. But people these days people try to take God out of our lives. People are to busy watching tv or reading books that mean nothing in this life and looking in the mirror. Helping your fellow man and following God is what life is about.
Have you read the Old Testament?
If everyone followed the Ten Commandments, there probably wouldn't be all those stories in the Old Testament.
"In the age of darkness
want to be enlightened"
0
g under p
Surfing The far side of THE Sombrero Galaxy Posts: 18,200
It appears to me more people across this planet believe in a God of their choosing than those who do NOT. To the point where they will kill brother against brother in that religion, to which to no end I don't understand. This reminds of the lyrics to.....Megadeth's
Brother will kill brother
Spilling blood across the land
Killing for religion
Something I don't understand
Fools like me, who cross the sea
And come to foreign lands
Ask the sheep, for their beliefs
Do you kill on God's command?
A country that's divided
Surely will not stand
My past erased, no more disgrace
No foolish naive stand
The end is near, it's crystal clear
Part of the master plan
Don't look now to Israel
It might be your homeland
Upon my podium, as the
Know it all scholar
Down in my seat of judgement
Gavel's bang, uphold the law
Up on my soapbox, a leader
Out to change the world
Down in my pulpit as the holier
Than-thou-could-be-messenger of God
Wage the war on organized crime
Sneak attacks, repel down the rocks
Behind the lines
Some people risk to employ me
Some people live to destroy me
Either way they die. they die
They killed my wife and my baby,
With hopes to enslave me
First mistake... last mistake
Paid by the alliance, to slay all the giants
Next mistake... no more mistakes!
Fill the cracks in, with judicial granite
Because I don't say it, don't mean I ain't
Thinkin' it.
Next thing you know, they'll take my thoughts away
I know what I said, now I must scream of the overdose
And the lack of mercy killings.
mercy killings
mercy killings
killings!!
killings!!
killings!!
next thing you know
they'll take my thoughts away!
Peace
*We CAN bomb the World to pieces, but we CAN'T bomb it into PEACE*...Michael Franti
*MUSIC IS the expression of EMOTION.....and that POLITICS IS merely the DECOY of PERCEPTION*
.....song_Music & Politics....Michael Franti
*The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite INSANE*....Nikola Tesla(a man who shaped our world of electricity with his futuristic inventions)
What about the catholic church's molestation and abuse of children. How do practicing Catholic's reconcile that, with their faith? Goes back to the questions I posed earlier, what sort of God, would allow 10-20,000 children to be molested, not by regular people per say, but by priests, and church staff, IN CHURCH'S! In God's house, literally.
I still dont understand that whole thing. And it was so massive too. It wasnt just a few Church's that engaged in it. And whats so odd, is how the people who were supposed to stop it, when it was reported to them, did absolutely nothing, they swept it under the rug, or moved the priests to new church's. How sick do you have to be, to know abuse is going on, abuse of children, and you have the power to expose it, and say "this jerk worked in our church, but he will no longer be employed here, and we and the child's family will pursue legal action", and NOTHING LIKE THAT HAPPENED! How messed up must one be to know about something like that, and not do anything about it.
Thats what I dont really like about the current "hot religion to hate", being scientology. Yes, scientilogy has problems, but lest us not forget the indiscrections of Catholocism and Judaism, and Christianity, and the Muslim Faith, and all religions.
I'm Agnostic.... who am I to say what happens in the afterlife? I'll know it when I get there (or, I won't know anything because I will have ceased to exist).
As long as one doesn't try to push their religious beliefs on me, I have no problems with religion in and of itself. I do however, have issues with the rip off artist evangelicals who claim to be the second coming of Christ... or the ones that spend an hour yelling "praise Jesus" and begging for cash. Unfortunately, the ones that tend to get sucked in the most by those so called "chosen ones" are lower income households. Those preachers don't believe half of what they preach, they just believe in the mighty pocketbook.
And don't even get me started on those crazy cults (i.e. Scientology, etc...), those all belong under the definition of "scam" or "bat shit crazy".
Has anyone ever seen "Ancient Aliens"? There is more circumstantial evidence that the early civilizations were visited by Aliens than there is anything regarding God's existence. Now to me that is interesting... although I don't necessarily believe it, it's powerful enough to make me at least wonder a bit. I haven't wondered about religion since I was maybe 10 years old.
Does Scientology have major problems, absolutely, but if your gonna suggest its a cult, you, to be fair have to include Christianity, and all other religions as well. This is my point. Its fine to criticize Scientilogy, but do it wisely. To suggest that what they believe is crazy, I think you have to call what Christians believe crazy as well. I mean, really, a bearded white guy who parted the sea? A guy who fed thousands with a single loaf of bread and a fish? Really? A guy who was crucified, died, and came back alive from the dead? If you want to believe these things, fine, I am not suggesting its wrong or not true, but come on people, its not like the examples I just gave are completely sane.
And don't even get me started on those crazy cults (i.e. Scientology, etc...), those all belong under the definition of "scam" or "bat shit crazy".
Does Scientology have major problems, absolutely, but if your gonna suggest its a cult, you, to be fair have to include Christianity, and all other religions as well. This is my point. Its fine to criticize Scientilogy, but do it wisely. To suggest that what they believe is crazy, I think you have to call what Christians believe crazy as well. I mean, really, a bearded white guy who parted the sea? A guy who fed thousands with a single loaf of bread and a fish? Really? A guy who was crucified, died, and came back alive from the dead? If you want to believe these things, fine, I am not suggesting its wrong or not true, but come on people, its not like the examples I just gave are completely sane.
I consider Scientology to be a scam, plain and simple. The church forces one to pay to be a part of it and then they gather personal information about their members and blackmail them if they want to leave. That is a scam and in no way has anything to do with religious belief.
If a church doesn't make you pay to pray, then I see nothing wrong with it. If it makes a person happy to be a member, there is no harm done. I would however, consider some sects of the Christian faith to be cult like. Have you ever watched the documentary, "Jesus Camp"? It's probably one of the most frightening documentaries that I've ever seen.
As for the stories in the bible, they are just that... some people take them at face value while others believe every word, it's all up to their interpretation. I guess how one interprets the bible (or any other religious text) has a lot to do with how one perceives their own religion. It doesn't matter if they are Christian, Catholic, Mormon, Muslim, or whatever... there will always be "cult" like followers at the fringe of most religions.
I will offer this advice though, if you ever come across members of any organization that all live together on a compound and dress alike, and one day you find yourself at their "new member" orientation... don't drink the punch.
Pitt 98, Pitt 00, Cleveland 03, Pitt 03, State College 03, Toledo 04, Toronto 05, Pitt 05, Cleveland 06, Pitt 06 & Chicago 07, Chicago 1&2 09, Philly 2,3,4 09, Cleveland 10, Columbus 10, Alpine Valley 1& 2 11
It's difficult for me to see how someone would believe there isn't a God.
Please expand. Why are you a christian and why do you believe in god? Why do you feel its difficult to see how someone couldnt believe in god?
What do you think of the criticisms I made of religion in my original post?
As a christian and someone who believes in god, how do you explain wars, violence, rape, murder etc...? Why would God allow things like that to happen? Especially if you believe in the power of prayer. If you believe in prayer, why would god "grant" some people those wishes, but in other cases, people might die in car accidents, or die of heart attacks or be murdered in their sleep etc.. Why?
I believe it's pretty simple minded to apply human logic and our extremely limited intelligence and perspective on things to an omnisicient God. It's kind of like a third grader trying to explain nuclear fission except on a much, much grander scale. If you understood all of God's reasons and knowledge, then you might as well be God.
Furthermore, I think our lives on earth are not even an extremely fast blink of an eye compared to eternity and that the things you mention do not have as much importance when viewed from a much larger perspective.
Regarding the existence of God, I do not understand how someone can look at the world, nature, outer space, all individual human, etc., and all of the intricacies of their creation and existence and not know there is a God that created them.
I am a Christian because I've searched my heart and soul and the world and know that there is a God who loves me more than I probably even love myself and that's a good thing.
The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
oh scary... 40000 morbidly obese christians wearing fanny packs invading europe is probably the least scariest thing since I watched an edited version of The Care Bears movie in an extremely brightly lit cinema.
Comments
Have you read the Old Testament?
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This is where I stand...the more I read on Buddhism, the more I feel that it makes sense...the gods (yes, "gods" plural and with a lower case g) are everywhere, and in everything
Whatever you are, be a good one --Lincoln
God? Not so much.
I respect those who believe.
.....but he loves you.
I'm with you....WAY too skeptical. I dont BELIEVE in...well....anything, really...let alone something so intangible...there were a lot of people that believed the earth was flat...
Agreed...but I've met so few of THOSE people. Amazing how much they stand out though.
I have no desire to try to convince anyone that God doesn't exist. That's not my place.
I teach my children about many different religions and in the end, it's up to them to decide. When my son asked if I believed in God and heaven I said "No, I don't. But a lot of people do." He told me he does (as did I when I was six too). I told him that it's one of the greatest mysteries about the world, and that I think it's great if he believes in God. We all need to show a little more respect for each others beliefs.
Thats true...no one knows for sure
people who believe thats fine just don't push it on me
The ONLY thing better than a glass of beer is tea with Miss McGill
A protuberance of flesh above the waistband of a tight pair of trousers
And ya, no point trying to disprove someone's faith....faith is very personal and not really a debatable topic. I do, at times, have trouble accepting that people 'believe' in something because of....well...their belief in it. faith is just not logical to me - it's circular reasoning. For some reason I'm picturing that Slayer fan youtube vid fanch posted last week...'you know.....you just know'
Neil deGrasse Tyson
Why not (V) (°,,,,°) (V) ?
It sucks. I really hope there is some sort of afterlife and once you go, it isnt it.
As long as one doesn't try to push their religious beliefs on me, I have no problems with religion in and of itself. I do however, have issues with the rip off artist evangelicals who claim to be the second coming of Christ... or the ones that spend an hour yelling "praise Jesus" and begging for cash. Unfortunately, the ones that tend to get sucked in the most by those so called "chosen ones" are lower income households. Those preachers don't believe half of what they preach, they just believe in the mighty pocketbook.
And don't even get me started on those crazy cults (i.e. Scientology, etc...), those all belong under the definition of "scam" or "bat shit crazy".
Has anyone ever seen "Ancient Aliens"? There is more circumstantial evidence that the early civilizations were visited by Aliens than there is anything regarding God's existence. Now to me that is interesting... although I don't necessarily believe it, it's powerful enough to make me at least wonder a bit. I haven't wondered about religion since I was maybe 10 years old.
Neil deGrasse Tyson
Why not (V) (°,,,,°) (V) ?
*Passes the spliff your way*
+1!!
want to be enlightened"
HOLY WARS
Brother will kill brother
Spilling blood across the land
Killing for religion
Something I don't understand
Fools like me, who cross the sea
And come to foreign lands
Ask the sheep, for their beliefs
Do you kill on God's command?
A country that's divided
Surely will not stand
My past erased, no more disgrace
No foolish naive stand
The end is near, it's crystal clear
Part of the master plan
Don't look now to Israel
It might be your homeland
Upon my podium, as the
Know it all scholar
Down in my seat of judgement
Gavel's bang, uphold the law
Up on my soapbox, a leader
Out to change the world
Down in my pulpit as the holier
Than-thou-could-be-messenger of God
Wage the war on organized crime
Sneak attacks, repel down the rocks
Behind the lines
Some people risk to employ me
Some people live to destroy me
Either way they die. they die
They killed my wife and my baby,
With hopes to enslave me
First mistake... last mistake
Paid by the alliance, to slay all the giants
Next mistake... no more mistakes!
Fill the cracks in, with judicial granite
Because I don't say it, don't mean I ain't
Thinkin' it.
Next thing you know, they'll take my thoughts away
I know what I said, now I must scream of the overdose
And the lack of mercy killings.
mercy killings
mercy killings
killings!!
killings!!
killings!!
next thing you know
they'll take my thoughts away!
Peace
*MUSIC IS the expression of EMOTION.....and that POLITICS IS merely the DECOY of PERCEPTION*
.....song_Music & Politics....Michael Franti
*The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite INSANE*....Nikola Tesla(a man who shaped our world of electricity with his futuristic inventions)
I still dont understand that whole thing. And it was so massive too. It wasnt just a few Church's that engaged in it. And whats so odd, is how the people who were supposed to stop it, when it was reported to them, did absolutely nothing, they swept it under the rug, or moved the priests to new church's. How sick do you have to be, to know abuse is going on, abuse of children, and you have the power to expose it, and say "this jerk worked in our church, but he will no longer be employed here, and we and the child's family will pursue legal action", and NOTHING LIKE THAT HAPPENED! How messed up must one be to know about something like that, and not do anything about it.
Thats what I dont really like about the current "hot religion to hate", being scientology. Yes, scientilogy has problems, but lest us not forget the indiscrections of Catholocism and Judaism, and Christianity, and the Muslim Faith, and all religions.
Does Scientology have major problems, absolutely, but if your gonna suggest its a cult, you, to be fair have to include Christianity, and all other religions as well. This is my point. Its fine to criticize Scientilogy, but do it wisely. To suggest that what they believe is crazy, I think you have to call what Christians believe crazy as well. I mean, really, a bearded white guy who parted the sea? A guy who fed thousands with a single loaf of bread and a fish? Really? A guy who was crucified, died, and came back alive from the dead? If you want to believe these things, fine, I am not suggesting its wrong or not true, but come on people, its not like the examples I just gave are completely sane.
I consider Scientology to be a scam, plain and simple. The church forces one to pay to be a part of it and then they gather personal information about their members and blackmail them if they want to leave. That is a scam and in no way has anything to do with religious belief.
If a church doesn't make you pay to pray, then I see nothing wrong with it. If it makes a person happy to be a member, there is no harm done. I would however, consider some sects of the Christian faith to be cult like. Have you ever watched the documentary, "Jesus Camp"? It's probably one of the most frightening documentaries that I've ever seen.
As for the stories in the bible, they are just that... some people take them at face value while others believe every word, it's all up to their interpretation. I guess how one interprets the bible (or any other religious text) has a lot to do with how one perceives their own religion. It doesn't matter if they are Christian, Catholic, Mormon, Muslim, or whatever... there will always be "cult" like followers at the fringe of most religions.
I will offer this advice though, if you ever come across members of any organization that all live together on a compound and dress alike, and one day you find yourself at their "new member" orientation... don't drink the punch.
I believe it's pretty simple minded to apply human logic and our extremely limited intelligence and perspective on things to an omnisicient God. It's kind of like a third grader trying to explain nuclear fission except on a much, much grander scale. If you understood all of God's reasons and knowledge, then you might as well be God.
Furthermore, I think our lives on earth are not even an extremely fast blink of an eye compared to eternity and that the things you mention do not have as much importance when viewed from a much larger perspective.
Regarding the existence of God, I do not understand how someone can look at the world, nature, outer space, all individual human, etc., and all of the intricacies of their creation and existence and not know there is a God that created them.
I am a Christian because I've searched my heart and soul and the world and know that there is a God who loves me more than I probably even love myself and that's a good thing.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
Wow - talk about a leap of faith.
Nothing in science can be proven. Anything that science knows can be overturned with new evidence that turns up.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
yes it can. unlike god.
Neil deGrasse Tyson
Why not (V) (°,,,,°) (V) ?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeSSwKffj9o