How About A Total Abortion Ban?

JR8805

Along with the total abortion ban, let's ban IQs above 40. We could criminalize both--anyone having an abortion would receive capital punishment and anyone displaying an iota of intelligence above 40 would also also receive capital punishment. Oh, and Obama wasn't born in the US. I think I'm ready to become a right wing Republican wingnut.

decides2dream

know1 wrote:

scb wrote:

know1 wrote:

Regarding BC, I'm totally for it except for the morning after pill. I think that starts to tread on abortion grounds.

:? :? :?

How so?

Maybe I'm just ignorant of how it works and not really against it. My assumption when I said that I was against it was that it was terminating an egg that was likely fertilized at that point. If there is NO question that it is NOT fertilized, then I do not oppose it (even though I'm not necessarily a fan of it either).

sadly, i think FAR too many are 'ignorant of how it works' and yet, are STILL against it, and that is the problem. given that it works as BC pills work, and other hormonal methods (as i explained in the other thread you don't want to look at, and i may've here too...i don't recall) work....no one who is in support of these methods of BC really should have a problem with the morning after pill.

it may or may not be fertilized, just like it may or may not be fertilized when using any of the other hormonal forms of BC....that's the point. you just don't know....it all depends on where in the menstrual cycle the woman may be, when intercourse occurred, etc. one may well opt to use the morning after pill 'just in case' and not even be pregnant!

however, if you are ok with the BC pill that may prevent fertiization OR implantation of a fertilized egg, why differeniate for the morning after pill? that was my Q. they are the same treatment, just a larger dosage. above you said it's not the metod, but the timing....so that would lead me to think it's more on judgements and not about actual fertilization. if i am incorrect tho, do please clarify.

know1

decides2dream wrote:

know1 wrote:

Maybe I'm just ignorant of how it works and not really against it. My assumption when I said that I was against it was that it was terminating an egg that was likely fertilized at that point. If there is NO question that it is NOT fertilized, then I do not oppose it (even though I'm not necessarily a fan of it either).

sadly, i think FAR too many are 'ignorant of how it works' and yet, are STILL against it, and that is the problem. given that it works as BC pills work, and other hormonal methods (as i explained in the other thread you don't want to look at, and i may've here too...i don't recall) work....no one who is in support of these methods of BC really should have a problem with the morning after pill.

it may or may not be fertilized, just like it may or may not be fertilized when using any of the other hormonal forms of BC....that's the point. you just don't know....it all depends on where in the menstrual cycle the woman may be, when intercourse occurred, etc. one may well opt to use the morning after pill 'just in case' and not even be pregnant!

however, if you are ok with the BC pill that may prevent fertiization OR implantation of a fertilized egg, why differeniate for the morning after pill? that was my Q. they are the same treatment, just a larger dosage. above you said it's not the metod, but the timing....so that would lead me to think it's more on judgements and not about actual fertilization. if i am incorrect tho, do please clarify.

Then I guess I don't oppose it and never have. I can't remember ever in my life having been asked whether I opposed it or not until today and I made a statement based upon an ignorant assumption.

I will say that I'm not a big fan of it either from the standpoint that I think these "safety nets" diminish the responsibility that people need to demonstrate to have responsible adult sexual lives (let the blasting begin on this one, but I don't have the time to elaborate). That is another example of why I oppose abortion. I think people should have communication about their sex lives and a long term (i.e. married) committed relationship and be in agreement on their stance on birth control, abortion, children, etc. BEFORE they have sex with someone. And yes, I know, someone's going to say that's not realistic for everyone, blah, blah, blah...

The tie-in to BC (not the morning after) is that someone on birth control has obviously thought about the consequences of their actions and made a decision. The use of the morning after pill (not for rape) implies they did something they consider a mistake.

I truly feel - and recognize this is an extremely minority position that will encourage people to bash me - that having easily available outlets to avoid the consequences of bad decisions leads to more bad decisions.

(and I'm not talking about rape here. I'm talking about people who were not raped who either took the morning after pill or had an abortion because they made what they later decided was a bad decision)

cincybearcat

JR8805 wrote:

I think I'm ready to become a right wing Republican wingnut.

You'd better try hippie lefist nutjob if you want to survive in the society you just mentioned.

decides2dream

know1 wrote:

decides2dream wrote:

know1 wrote:

Maybe I'm just ignorant of how it works and not really against it. My assumption when I said that I was against it was that it was terminating an egg that was likely fertilized at that point. If there is NO question that it is NOT fertilized, then I do not oppose it (even though I'm not necessarily a fan of it either).

sadly, i think FAR too many are 'ignorant of how it works' and yet, are STILL against it, and that is the problem. given that it works as BC pills work, and other hormonal methods (as i explained in the other thread you don't want to look at, and i may've here too...i don't recall) work....no one who is in support of these methods of BC really should have a problem with the morning after pill.

it may or may not be fertilized, just like it may or may not be fertilized when using any of the other hormonal forms of BC....that's the point. you just don't know....it all depends on where in the menstrual cycle the woman may be, when intercourse occurred, etc. one may well opt to use the morning after pill 'just in case' and not even be pregnant!

however, if you are ok with the BC pill that may prevent fertiization OR implantation of a fertilized egg, why differeniate for the morning after pill? that was my Q. they are the same treatment, just a larger dosage. above you said it's not the metod, but the timing....so that would lead me to think it's more on judgements and not about actual fertilization. if i am incorrect tho, do please clarify.

know1 wrote:

Then I guess I don't oppose it and never have. I can't remember ever in my life having been asked whether I opposed it or not until today and I made a statement based upon an ignorant assumption.

cool.

know1 wrote:

I will say that I'm not a big fan of it either from the standpoint that I think these "safety nets" diminish the responsibility that people need to demonstrate to have responsible adult sexual lives (let the blasting begin on this one, but I don't have the time to elaborate). That is another example of why I oppose abortion. I think people should have communication about their sex lives and a long term (i.e. married) committed relationship and be in agreement on their stance on birth control, abortion, children, etc. BEFORE they have sex with someone. And yes, I know, someone's going to say that's not realistic for everyone, blah, blah, blah...

i understand your personal pov, against sex before marriage and all that, and i respect that as a choice....for YOU. i DO agree people should have communication about BC and abortion, especially in long-term relationships....and i think BC should ALWAYS be utilized when pregnancy is not desired.....tho you're right, i will say....we don't live in a perfect world #1, and #2...many do not share your same morality in regards to sex, and i am a-ok with that.

and me, i am all FOR safety nets...b/c i think they help rectify 'mistakes'...and can also lead to more responsible choices after such an experience/scare, etc. however, we have VERY different views on intercourse in general, and i certainly do not expect you or anyone to share my pov on it.

know1 wrote:

The tie-in to BC (not the morning after) is that someone on birth control has obviously thought about the consequences of their actions and made a decision. The use of the morning after pill (not for rape) implies they did something they consider a mistake.

and the use of the morning after pill can imply a LOT of things, not just the one you mention. i gave a VERy likely scenario above...a condom break. failure of BC is a common reason for the use of the morning after pill and of abortion. and sure, others may use it as their only means. however, to imply that all are casual and/or irresponsible, is just wrong imo....and beyond that, again, we are imperfect and we all make bad judgements and mistakes. ihow we believe one should choose to deal with those consequences are where we most differ. don't we all want to correct our mistkes if/when we can? so i see no difference there in regards to the morning after pill.


and i also would think if someone's main objective is to limit abortion (not merely push their morality on others) than support of BC INCLUDING the morning after pill would be viewed as a GOOD thing, b/c ultimately, with ease of access, education AND removal of stigmas...perhaps more would utilize this choice, and thus greatly reduce the amount of abortions. all good things imo...

know1 wrote:

I truly feel - and recognize this is an extremely minority position that will encourage people to bash me - that having easily available outlets to avoid the consequences of bad decisions leads to more bad decisions.

(and I'm not talking about rape here. I'm talking about people who were not raped who either took the morning after pill or had an abortion because they made what they later decided was a bad decision)

and...no bashing. i can absolutely disagree with someone, and yet offer respect for their opion and pov, especially when explained so well. i appreciate your candor. again, i disagree with much of it...but i do always like to gain more understanding for various perspectives, especially when they are so outside my own pov.

cincybearcat

decides2dream wrote:

[ their opion and pov, especially when explained so well. when they are so outside my own pov.

omg, idk ur pov.

Man, I found myself cringing reading your text speak. I'd like to abort it.

decides2dream

cincybearcat wrote:

decides2dream wrote:

[ their opion and pov, especially when explained so well. when they are so outside my own pov.

omg, idk ur pov.

Man, I found myself cringing reading your text speak. I'd like to abort it.

cringe and abort away! remember, i am about choice. :P
funny, i try and be respectful...and yet you still can't help yourself but find 'fault' with something...;)
also, i rarely....as in almost never.....text. so it's not my 'text-speak'...it's merely 'posting-speak.'
glad you pulled something of value from the discussion tho.

spearhead

cincybearcat said:

I already said what I thought. But if you must see it again, I'm not for a total ban. And I think the OP was trying to sensationalize what anti-abortion people think , which, in my opinion, really hurts discussion on the matter.

DAMN!

I thought I'd better weigh in, since I was the OP ...

I really didn't intend to "sensationalize what anti-abortion people think," and it sure doesn't seem to have hurt this "discussion on the matter" very much, nor did I mean to post and run, but I am just now being able to get back on line and see what a shit storm this post caused ... I think, after going through all of these responses, that I have learned something, and I thank this intelligent and passionate group of people for such an important and informative dialogue ... at least we agree on one thing: Pearl Jam is great!!! But, seriously, I now see how counter productive ANY absolute rule is, whether it's against abortion or smoking marijuana ... I think the really intelligent, and most effective approach might be to make abortion almost completely legal while working towards making it as rare as possible. If you're right about why a woman shouldn't abort that baby she is pregnant with because her father or her kidnapper raped her, or because she knows it will be born brain dead, then you have a right to attempt to convince her of that. If you're successful, then you've made a difference.