I also just had someone tell me about a movie called "Food Inc". She is not organic or veggie and the movie made a huge impact on her and her family's eating habits. I'm going to check into it.
Another great source for learning about your food is your locally owned health food store. Some of the chain health food stores might not be the most trustworthy sources, but your locally owned guys are pretty straight up about their animal products AND produce etc. since they stay in business by word of mouth and not huge advertising budgets. For most of the local guys, it's a way of life and they're happy to talk about what they sell.
that movie has been on my netflix queue since i first heard of it. i don't think it'll be out on DVD for awhile, but it's on my saved list for when it is. we don't actually have any 'health FOOD' stores in our area anymore...amazingly. we have lots of nutrition places, but no health foods. of course, we have whole foods and things like it, but again...not quite the same.
anyhoo...i really appreciate all the information presented here!
and ty.....see, it seems like ya just can't win. :evil: but there just HAS to be a better, less cruel, way than factory farming.
and ty.....see, it seems like ya just can't win. :evil: but there just HAS to be a better, less cruel, way than factory farming.
For every give, there's take...yes, it's true.
All the world will be your enemy, Prince with a thousand enemies, and whenever they catch you, they will kill you. But first they must catch you, digger, listener, runner, prince with the swift warning. Be cunning and full of tricks and your people shall never be destroyed.
i love grass fed beef and buy it when i can just my 2 cents. i think grain fed beef was designed by hitler himself
Nature did not design cows to eat corn. It makes the cows sick. I read in either Fast Food Nation or in Pollen's Ominovore's Dilemmma that if the animals were not slaughtered when they are, their corn diet would lead them to die at high rates as their stomachs deteriorated. A lot of animals are being fed things they were not designed by nature to eat. Man is among them. Look at our hydogenatated fats, which without doubt are linked to diabetes and coronary disease in a variety of well-respected studies. Look at the PBAs in our plastic bottles, etc. They leech into our food. And when they do, after enough exposure through the years, it begins to look like they are contributing to our skyrocketing cases of cancer.
As an aside, cats are being fed corn. I had no idea. I got my first cat and began to feed it a popular commercial brand thinking that cat food makers know what they're doing. (They do. They know how to turn a profit.) The cat began to vomit all the time for days at a time. I finally checked the label on the food it was eating. One of the main ingredients in the food was corn. Cats are not vegetarians. I switched the cat to a diet far more closely resembling what nature intended, and within hours it stopped the vomiting routine. The cat graphically served as reinforcement to me that when people go against nature in their food choices, sickness and disease are not far behind.
My father had a little saying, "There are no infirmities of old age; they are the sins of our youth." He heard this from a doctor he liked. I think that doctor was pretty much right on, and that we often pay for sins we have no idea that we've been committing--like switching from butter to margarine in an effort to improve our health (up to 1/2 the stick of margarine is trans fat, way worse than the saturated fat in the butter we were trying to avoid). It is something to think about.
A diet that includes doses of antibiotics to us through the meats we consume is not what nature intended. It cannot be good for us.
Also, keep in mind that it takes alot more acreage per head to feed free-range livestock than it does in a confined operation.
yeah ... but there's the flip side to that ... disease, suffering, etc.
Always a flip side, yes indeed.....free-range chickens are more vulnerable to the various strains of bird flu due to possible interaction with wild birds.
i've not heard of health issues related to free-range chickens ...
After reading "An Omnivore's Dilemna" my eyes were totally opened. Among other changes in my lifestyle, I buy grass fed organic beef whenever possible. If more farms were ran like Joel Salatin's the world would be a much better, healthier, and more humane place.
i'll have to look into this book. idk anything about joel salatin's farming practices, but if it is a free-range farm and all.....i agree. i am really going to have to try and see how we can fit organic in our already crazy expensive food budget, and also to convince my husband of it.
90% of the whole "organic" movement is just marketing bullshit and has absolutely no basis in any scientific reality.
It is a scientific reality that ingesting pesticides is not ideal. Human beings have not evolved to thrive on a steady diet of pesticides and antibiotics.
see, and that's the part that makes me hesitant to lay out the $$$ for organic, b/c how do i know?
and the pessimist/little faith in humanity of my husband ...he thinks it's all a bunch of hooey. i know there are the labels, but as you say.....there is still grey area within that. however, i do still want to now more about it, and hope for better choices/solutions in the future.
***
Organic is more expensive up front, but I think it pays off in the long run. It would be ideal to have everything free range, truly free range, as the chickens where I grew up were, but it is better to have an organically-fed animal than one commercially raised. I think it's easy to get into an all or nothing mentality--you know, gotta run six miles every day, or might as well lay on the couch and eat six cheeseburgers thing. But the truth generally is that even little changes all made in the right direction often Yield very positive outcomes. Sure, it's cheaper to eat off the dollar menu at the fast food drive up today, but if you keep doing it, your bypass is going to cost you way more down the line. And you know, the way health insurance is going, like mine is, right now I'm being charged 20% of any procedure I end up having. A $300,000 surgery is going to directly cost you--out of your pocket--$60,000. If there's no further inflation. The dollar menu starts not to look all that cheap when you look at it like this.
My point is, I think it's important to eat organic where it makes sense (like the "Dirty Dozen" list http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13737389/page/2/), to try to keep up with the latest on what is being shown to be highly suspicious or outright bad for your health from reputable sources, to exercise--walking is good!, to not eat to excess, and to stay away from too much alcohol and tobacco. I think that in doing these things, you can live longer and have a higher quality of life until you do die.
I'd like to amend this: I think it is possible to drink so that it doesn't really have a negative affect on human health--lightly; but, I'm not at all sure the same is true of tobacco consumption. I don't think too many studies will come out showing benefit to health from smoking, whereas, there have been studies showing that light alcohol consumption can have some positive outcomes.
see, and that's the part that makes me hesitant to lay out the $$$ for organic, b/c how do i know?
and the pessimist/little faith in humanity of my husband ...he thinks it's all a bunch of hooey. i know there are the labels, but as you say.....there is still grey area within that. however, i do still want to now more about it, and hope for better choices/solutions in the future.
***
Organic is more expensive up front, but I think it pays off in the long run. It would be ideal to have everything free range, truly free range, as the chickens where I grew up were, but it is better to have an organically-fed animal than one commercially raised. I think it's easy to get into an all or nothing mentality--you know, gotta run six miles every day, or might as well lay on the couch and eat six cheeseburgers thing. But the truth generally is that even little changes all made in the right direction often Yield very positive outcomes. Sure, it's cheaper to eat off the dollar menu at the fast food drive up today, but if you keep doing it, your bypass is going to cost you way more down the line. And you know, the way health insurance is going, like mine is, right now I'm being charged 20% of any procedure I end up having. A $300,000 surgery is going to directly cost you--out of your pocket--$60,000. If there's no further inflation. The dollar menu starts not to look all that cheap when you look at it like this.
My point is, I think it's important to eat organic where it makes sense (like the "Dirty Dozen" list http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13737389/page/2/), to try to keep up with the latest on what is being shown to be highly suspicious or outright bad for your health from reputable sources, to exercise--walking is good!, to not eat to excess, and to stay away from too much alcohol and tobacco. I think that in doing these things, you can live longer and have a higher quality of life until you do die.
i do agree...and believe me, i eat as healthfully as i can, sans going organic/free-range.....yet - tho in the summer we do grow a lot of our own produce, and try to hit up farmer's markets when we can. i was really referencing tybird's post above, saying that free-range birds are more susceptible to bird flu.
and absolutely, all or nothing is not a good approach for most things, and lawd knows i'd never do a damn thing if that was my lifestyle of choice. and my main impetus for free-range is it being far more crulety-free than factory farming, tho i know i would personally benefit from such as well.
i've not heard of health issues related to free-range chickens ...
great post JR8805
It is a potential that exists...the chickens in Asia ,while not what we define as "free range", did have access to the outside environment that factory-style chickens in the U.S. do not have.
All the world will be your enemy, Prince with a thousand enemies, and whenever they catch you, they will kill you. But first they must catch you, digger, listener, runner, prince with the swift warning. Be cunning and full of tricks and your people shall never be destroyed.
Organic is more expensive up front, but I think it pays off in the long run.
The problem is that when you live from paycheck to paycheck.....looking out for the long run is something that you may not be able to rationalize at the up front.
All the world will be your enemy, Prince with a thousand enemies, and whenever they catch you, they will kill you. But first they must catch you, digger, listener, runner, prince with the swift warning. Be cunning and full of tricks and your people shall never be destroyed.
i've not heard of health issues related to free-range chickens ...
great post JR8805
It is a potential that exists...the chickens in Asia ,while not what we define as "free range", did have access to the outside environment that factory-style chickens in the U.S. do not have.
sure ... but the overwhelming negatives of factory farming don't come close to any potential impacts of free range chickens ...
the case against factory farming is damming not only in terms of health but sustainability
i've not heard of health issues related to free-range chickens ...
great post JR8805
It is a potential that exists...the chickens in Asia ,while not what we define as "free range", did have access to the outside environment that factory-style chickens in the U.S. do not have.
sure ... but the overwhelming negatives of factory farming don't come close to any potential impacts of free range chickens ...
the case against factory farming is damming not only in terms of health but sustainability
Never said I was for it...and I believe that my record would bear that out..just looking at all sides of the puzzle. Don't have to drive to far to see the chicken farms and processing plants....still know the smell of the processing plant real well.
All the world will be your enemy, Prince with a thousand enemies, and whenever they catch you, they will kill you. But first they must catch you, digger, listener, runner, prince with the swift warning. Be cunning and full of tricks and your people shall never be destroyed.
i do agree...and believe me, i eat as healthfully as i can, sans going organic/free-range.....yet - tho in the summer we do grow a lot of our own produce, and try to hit up farmer's markets when we can. i was really referencing tybird's post above, saying that free-range birds are more susceptible to bird flu.
and absolutely, all or nothing is not a good approach for most things, and lawd knows i'd never do a damn thing if that was my lifestyle of choice. and my main impetus for free-range is it being far more crulety-free than factory farming, tho i know i would personally benefit from such as well.[/quote]
***
Growing your own produce is always good! I don't think that free-range birds would be more susceptible to bird flu than those in cramped quarters. Antibiotics don't do anything against viruses. If the bird flu were to come to a factory-farmed coop in the US, those birds would go down with flu like tinder to a flame. They can't get away from each other. If one gets the flu, they'll all have it in short order, especially since they might tend to be more of a "monoculture" (more genetically the same) than a typical chicken might be. In a free-range chicken (a truly free range chicken--it does actually walk out the door), if a chicken were to contract the flu, it would be far less likely to infest the entire coop since the chicken would have some room. Why aren't wild birds dropping in countries where the avian flu is? Some must be. But, it's not droves of them. Why? Again, I think it's room. The birds are not all squashed together. If individuals get sick and die, they do. But they don't take down 1000s upon 1000s of birds with them every time they do. The birds going down are the "cramped" birds--the farmed birds. People getting the flu, with few exceptions so far, are people who are in very close contact with these farmed birds, often sleeping above the sick animals. (People actually getting the flu from other people so far as I know have also been from a "monoculture" of sorts--relatives of those who got the flu from birds.)
This fall, I'm fully expecting to see waves of "swine flu" sweep through cramped places--like classrooms and malls. If you breathe the same air 30 others or 100s of others, you're going to get sick.
Back to the chickens...I'm not for cruelty to animals, and I agree that free range is less cruel than factory. At least, theoretically it should be. Factory farms have another terrible effect...pollution. When you put 250,000 animals on a property, their waste will foul streams, rivers, etc. That waste is a potent toxin. But, for those people who don't care about other animals that much--and I admit to liking to be blind myself so I can eat my pork chop occasionally--a little self-interest could be a good motivator that might also result in a better life for the entire food chain involved.
I'm not for cruelty to animals, and I agree that free range is less cruel than factory. At least, theoretically it should be. Factory farms have another terrible effect...pollution. When you put 250,000 animals on a property, their waste will foul streams, rivers, etc. That waste is a potent toxin. But, for those people who don't care about other animals that much--and I admit to liking to be blind myself so I can eat my pork chop occasionally--a little self-interest could be a good motivator that might also result in a better life for the entire food chain involved
VERY true!
whatever works, and benefits, the most....and not so homo-sapien specific or at least not always.
also, as tybird pointed out elsewhere....benefits the full food web.
i do agree...and believe me, i eat as healthfully as i can, sans going organic/free-range.....yet - tho in the summer we do grow a lot of our own produce, and try to hit up farmer's markets when we can. i was really referencing tybird's post above, saying that free-range birds are more susceptible to bird flu.
and absolutely, all or nothing is not a good approach for most things, and lawd knows i'd never do a damn thing if that was my lifestyle of choice. and my main impetus for free-range is it being far more crulety-free than factory farming, tho i know i would personally benefit from such as well.
***
Growing your own produce is always good! I don't think that free-range birds would be more susceptible to bird flu than those in cramped quarters. Antibiotics don't do anything against viruses. If the bird flu were to come to a factory-farmed coop in the US, those birds would go down with flu like tinder to a flame. They can't get away from each other. If one gets the flu, they'll all have it in short order, especially since they might tend to be more of a "monoculture" (more genetically the same) than a typical chicken might be. In a free-range chicken (a truly free range chicken--it does actually walk out the door), if a chicken were to contract the flu, it would be far less likely to infest the entire coop since the chicken would have some room. Why aren't wild birds dropping in countries where the avian flu is? Some must be. But, it's not droves of them. Why? Again, I think it's room. The birds are not all squashed together. If individuals get sick and die, they do. But they don't take down 1000s upon 1000s of birds with them every time they do. The birds going down are the "cramped" birds--the farmed birds. People getting the flu, with few exceptions so far, are people who are in very close contact with these farmed birds, often sleeping above the sick animals. (People actually getting the flu from other people so far as I know have also been from a "monoculture" of sorts--relatives of those who got the flu from birds.)[/quote]
The issue with the flu is not the conditions in which they, the chickens, live....as in cramped, dirty or unclean...it's possible exposure to WILD birds carrying the flu virus. Factory raised chickens have zero exposure to the outside environment other than being driven down the interstate on the chicken truck. Granted, it's a slight risk in any free range fowl...but it is a risk.
All the world will be your enemy, Prince with a thousand enemies, and whenever they catch you, they will kill you. But first they must catch you, digger, listener, runner, prince with the swift warning. Be cunning and full of tricks and your people shall never be destroyed.
90% of the whole "organic" movement is just marketing bullshit and has absolutely no basis in any scientific reality.
I was never subject to any "marketing bullshit" for organic food while living in Rhode Island in 2005. After reading many books that I borrowed from the local library, I decided to try it. I was not expecting any physical consequence. Yet after eating organic food for five months, I began losing weight. I lost 26 pounds in all! It was amazing! I ate ginormous amounts of chocolate. I ate pasta, cheese, whatever the hell I wanted. That may not be a "scientific reality," but it is my life experience.
The change from common to organic food was so profound, that even though I now struggle to afford food, I still insist on eating mostly organic. I buy the more boring, cheaper options like brown rice from the bulk dispenser bins at Whole Foods Market. And the most delicious corn flakes I have ever tasted are sold by Trader Joe's. Just $2.39 for a large box of organic cereal, contains added A, B, C, D, and iron to help when I can't buy supplements.
(I tried adding your response to my earlier post as a second "re:" here, but I have not yet learned.) Regarding the outbreak of e coli among organic herds- The superbug affects all creatures. It is not limited to factory farms. Antibiotics caused the previously harmless intestinal bacteria of cattle to mutate into the modern deadly form. So all cows can carry it, whether they are raised organically or by the hormone and chemical route.
90% of the whole "organic" movement is just marketing bullshit and has absolutely no basis in any scientific reality.
I was never subject to any "marketing bullshit" for organic food while living in Rhode Island in 2005. After reading many books that I borrowed from the local library, I decided to try it. I was not expecting any physical consequence. Yet after eating organic food for five months, I began losing weight. I lost 26 pounds in all! It was amazing! I ate ginormous amounts of chocolate. I ate pasta, cheese, whatever the hell I wanted. That may not be a "scientific reality," but it is my life experience.
The change from common to organic food was so profound, that even though I now struggle to afford food, I still insist on eating mostly organic. I buy the more boring, cheaper options like brown rice from the bulk dispenser bins at Whole Foods Market. And the most delicious corn flakes I have ever tasted are sold by Trader Joe's. Just $2.39 for a large box of organic cereal, contains added A, B, C, D, and iron to help when I can't buy supplements.
(I tried adding your response to my earlier post as a second "re:" here, but I have not yet learned.) Regarding the outbreak of e coli among organic herds- The superbug affects all creatures. It is not limited to factory farms. Antibiotics caused the previously harmless intestinal bacteria of cattle to mutate into the modern deadly form. So all cows can carry it, whether they are raised organically or by the hormone and chemical route.
that's awesome!
and it's also so sad that for many of us this:
"The change from common to organic food was so profound, that even though I now struggle to afford food, I still insist on eating mostly organic."
is more than likely the reality, and for a great many, simply outside their reach. it just seems so wrong that what is best for us, best for animals, best for the planet...is so unaffordable for so many. i do understand the 'whys' of it, but it would be great to see that change for the better.
I agree, it IS sad. Even the organic cat food is outrageously priced. Two years ago I could afford to give it to my cats and I've got to tell you, their coats were unbelievably soft, shiny and beautiful. After I lost my job, I moved down gradually to the regular stuff until finally I've got them on the store brands.
They started throwing up more often but I just learned from an earlier poster that it was due to corn content. They are still "pretty boys" but their coats lack the lustre and depth they had on the organic stuff.
This is a great thread. I've learned a LOT! Thanks everyone.
And I don't believe a word about the organics being no healthier. I have my own health and physical history to disprove that theory.
~I want to realize brotherhood or identity not merely with the beings called human, but I want to realize identity with all life, even with such things as crawl upon earth.~
Mohandas K. Gandhi
~I once had a sparrow alight upon my shoulder for a moment, while I was hoeing in a village garden, and I felt that I was more distinguished by that circumstance than I should have been by any epaulette I could have worn.~
Henry David Thoreau
i do agree...and believe me, i eat as healthfully as i can, sans going organic/free-range.....yet - tho in the summer we do grow a lot of our own produce, and try to hit up farmer's markets when we can. i was really referencing tybird's post above, saying that free-range birds are more susceptible to bird flu.
and absolutely, all or nothing is not a good approach for most things, and lawd knows i'd never do a damn thing if that was my lifestyle of choice. and my main impetus for free-range is it being far more crulety-free than factory farming, tho i know i would personally benefit from such as well.
***
Growing your own produce is always good! I don't think that free-range birds would be more susceptible to bird flu than those in cramped quarters. Antibiotics don't do anything against viruses. If the bird flu were to come to a factory-farmed coop in the US, those birds would go down with flu like tinder to a flame. They can't get away from each other. If one gets the flu, they'll all have it in short order, especially since they might tend to be more of a "monoculture" (more genetically the same) than a typical chicken might be. In a free-range chicken (a truly free range chicken--it does actually walk out the door), if a chicken were to contract the flu, it would be far less likely to infest the entire coop since the chicken would have some room. Why aren't wild birds dropping in countries where the avian flu is? Some must be. But, it's not droves of them. Why? Again, I think it's room. The birds are not all squashed together. If individuals get sick and die, they do. But they don't take down 1000s upon 1000s of birds with them every time they do. The birds going down are the "cramped" birds--the farmed birds. People getting the flu, with few exceptions so far, are people who are in very close contact with these farmed birds, often sleeping above the sick animals. (People actually getting the flu from other people so far as I know have also been from a "monoculture" of sorts--relatives of those who got the flu from birds.)
The issue with the flu is not the conditions in which they, the chickens, live....as in cramped, dirty or unclean...it's possible exposure to WILD birds carrying the flu virus. Factory raised chickens have zero exposure to the outside environment other than being driven down the interstate on the chicken truck. Granted, it's a slight risk in any free range fowl...but it is a risk.[/quote]
Maybe the avian flu originated with wild birds. I don't know. However, I do know that you don't read about massive deaths of wild birds from the flu. So, crowded conditions do have something to do with the flu passing around, just like crowded conditions at the mall encourage disease to spread. Another big factor in the flu is that chickens kept in captivity appear to be the only "reliable" in the whole picture. I don't think that free-range chickens would be at any more risk than factory farmed ones. Most free range chickens never leave their coops, anyway. Only the old-style, family farm scenarios have chickens that actually ever leave the barn.
In addition, organic foods have almost no pesticide residues (since pesticides aren't used in growing them) and they are more environmentally friendly since runoff from organic farms doesn't involve the pesticides, either.
Many of the studies show that organics are no different than conventionally grown foods have been funded by big agriculture/the chemical industry. The studies showing organics are better, are miraculously provided by the organic side of the fence. What to believe? I'm biased toward "the logical side." If farming is depleting your top soil, like conventional farming is, little by little, it seems to me you also have to be degrading your plant, and therefore your nutrition. I believe that tiny amounts of nutrients can make a huge overall impact on your diet. We don't know all there is to know about nutrients and which are essential to us. A few years ago, pet food for cats did not include taurine, because no one knew it was important. Now it's recognized as a critical component for their health. Micronutrients may have the same sort of role in a human diet. I don't know this to be true. It just makes sense to me.
Many of the studies show that organics are no different than conventionally grown foods have been funded by big agriculture/the chemical industry. The studies showing organics are better, are miraculously provided by the organic side of the fence. What to believe? I'm biased toward "the logical side." If farming is depleting your top soil, like conventional farming is, little by little, it seems to me you also have to be degrading your plant, and therefore your nutrition. I believe that tiny amounts of nutrients can make a huge overall impact on your diet. We don't know all there is to know about nutrients and which are essential to us. A few years ago, pet food for cats did not include taurine, because no one knew it was important. Now it's recognized as a critical component for their health. Micronutrients may have the same sort of role in a human diet. I don't know this to be true. It just makes sense to me.
That's the problem. Nobody wants to believe the science anymore. Whether it's the loonies skeptical of Global Warming, or those warning of the "supposed" dangers of agricultural chemicals. It's all the same. If the science disagrees with your beliefs, then deny the science.
Rock me Jesus, roll me Lord...
Wash me in the blood of Rock & Roll
Maybe the avian flu originated with wild birds. I don't know. However, I do know that you don't read about massive deaths of wild birds from the flu. So, crowded conditions do have something to do with the flu passing around, just like crowded conditions at the mall encourage disease to spread. Another big factor in the flu is that chickens kept in captivity appear to be the only "reliable" in the whole picture. I don't think that free-range chickens would be at any more risk than factory farmed ones. Most free range chickens never leave their coops, anyway. Only the old-style, family farm scenarios have chickens that actually ever leave the barn.
Yes, it originated with wild birds.....it's very hard to keep a live census on wild birds, much less one on birds that have died and even less likely why they died across Asia (flashpoint for recent avian flu outbreaks)...much less the globe...I have been involved in many a wild bird census, and it is science...but not a very exact one...many, many things eat dead birds, so they can be hard to go by in the field...then again many wild birds are simply carriers..the flu jumps from wild birds to domestic birds, so domestic birds with open and regular access to the outside world are at risk. Period
If a virus is introduced into domestic birds under factory farm conditions, yes...it will spread easier and at an accelerated rate. However, the avian flu that we have seen in the last couple years is unlikely to jump from a wild population to the factory farmed population because there is no contact between them.
All the world will be your enemy, Prince with a thousand enemies, and whenever they catch you, they will kill you. But first they must catch you, digger, listener, runner, prince with the swift warning. Be cunning and full of tricks and your people shall never be destroyed.
And I don't believe a word about the organics being no healthier. I have my own health and physical history to disprove that theory.
Placebo effect, nothing more. If you think you're healthier, you probably are.
I surmised that would be your comeback. You can use that reasoning for just about anything under the sun. You're entitled to your opinion, but I know better from my own skin, nails, hair, body odor etc AND lessened ailments. Here's an example, most non-organic food utilizes some form or other of preservative. It just so happens that preservatives are triggers for migraine headaches. I've controlled the ingestion of preservatives by not eating at fast food or other restaurants where the food is not prepared individually to order, and by reading the labels on everything I buy to ingest.
Before I started going thru this exercise, I would suffer from three or four migraines a week. Now? If I drink wine or alcohol, or eat chocolate I know I'll get one. Other than that, no migraines from food sources. Organics have made a huge difference in my life. Granted, not all triggers can be controlled, there's still stress and environmental factors. However organic foods and juices have made a phenomenal difference. If I ingest something with preservatives in it, I know it in less than 10 minutes. A blanket statement that organics make no difference whatsoever is just plain incorrect.
~I want to realize brotherhood or identity not merely with the beings called human, but I want to realize identity with all life, even with such things as crawl upon earth.~
Mohandas K. Gandhi
~I once had a sparrow alight upon my shoulder for a moment, while I was hoeing in a village garden, and I felt that I was more distinguished by that circumstance than I should have been by any epaulette I could have worn.~
Henry David Thoreau
Before I started going thru this exercise, I would suffer from three or four migraines a week. Now? If I drink wine or alcohol, or eat chocolate I know I'll get one. Other than that, no migraines from food sources. Organics have made a huge difference in my life. Granted, not all triggers can be controlled, there's still stress and environmental factors. However organic foods and juices have made a phenomenal difference. If I ingest something with preservatives in it, I know it in less than 10 minutes. A blanket statement that organics make no difference whatsoever is just plain incorrect.
But what would happen if you ate "organic" chocolate? You know, organically processed cocoa, pure cane sugar, etc. I bet you'd get a migraine. Because (IIRC) it's the naturally-occurring theobromine in chocolate, and red wine, that causes migraines. It has nothing to do with organic or processed.
Rock me Jesus, roll me Lord...
Wash me in the blood of Rock & Roll
Before I started going thru this exercise, I would suffer from three or four migraines a week. Now? If I drink wine or alcohol, or eat chocolate I know I'll get one. Other than that, no migraines from food sources. Organics have made a huge difference in my life. Granted, not all triggers can be controlled, there's still stress and environmental factors. However organic foods and juices have made a phenomenal difference. If I ingest something with preservatives in it, I know it in less than 10 minutes. A blanket statement that organics make no difference whatsoever is just plain incorrect.
But what would happen if you ate "organic" chocolate? You know, organically processed cocoa, pure cane sugar, etc. I bet you'd get a migraine. Because (IIRC) it's the naturally-occurring theobromine in chocolate, and red wine, that causes migraines. It has nothing to do with organic or processed.
Yes, I knew about the problem with red wine and chocolate. I drink white wine, but the sulfites mess me up.
Can't win on that one. :(
~I want to realize brotherhood or identity not merely with the beings called human, but I want to realize identity with all life, even with such things as crawl upon earth.~
Mohandas K. Gandhi
~I once had a sparrow alight upon my shoulder for a moment, while I was hoeing in a village garden, and I felt that I was more distinguished by that circumstance than I should have been by any epaulette I could have worn.~
Henry David Thoreau
Now this news, focusing on the juices people...not the "sports drinks":
Juices, tea and energy drinks erode teeth
updated 2:02 p.m. EDT, Wed July 29, 2009
By Madison Park
CNN
(CNN) -- For years, dentists have warned patients about the decaying effects of cola and sugary, fizzy drinks on their teeth.
Acidic drinks that are healthier than soda caused tooth erosion in dental experiments.
Acidic drinks that are healthier than soda caused tooth erosion in dental experiments.
Research shows that other drinks thought to be better --fruit juices, teas and energy drinks-- can also have harmful effects on teeth, turning the pearly whites to shrinking, spotted yellows marred with pockmarks.
Dentists say sipping fluorescent-colored sports drinks, carbonated beverages and citric fruit juices bathe the teeth in harmful acids. The constant exposure strips the hard, protective layer of the tooth called the enamel and could dissolve the entire tooth.
"We all became aware of the sugar on your teeth. What most of us don't know is the acid," said Dr. Mohamed Bassiouny, a restorative dentistry professor at Temple University. "Cavities form when bacteria in the mouth mixes with sugar, leading to decay. Erosion occurs when chemicals strip the mineral off the teeth.
"The seriousness of the erosion is far more than decay," said Bassiouny. "Erosion affects all teeth at once, as you can imagine acidic fluid is running through the entire mouth."
This causes hypersensitivity, discoloration and cracks on the teeth. Serious cases require crowns or even dentures if entire teeth have disintegrated.
Research in Europe has linked that acidic beverage consumption to increasing tooth erosion. A person who has bulimia or acid reflux disease could get tooth erosion, because of stomach acids in their mouth, but the more common culprits are often beverages, Bassiouny said. Here are some of them:
Energy drinks
Researchers at the University of Iowa's College of Dentistry found that energy drinks and sports drinks, such as Gatorade and Red Bull, eroded the enamel more than soda and fruit juices. In a 2008 study published in the journal Nutritional Research, the dentists soaked extracted human teeth in various liquids for 25 hours, and then measured the structural changes, or lesions.
"Power drinks can be quite acidic, usually because there is an addition of citric acid to those to give it tartness that is desired by some consumers," said Dr. Clark Stanford, the associate dean for research at the University of Iowa College of Dentistry. "It's important to look at the label and see if citric acid has been added."
Soda (including diet)
Dentists have warned for years the perils of carbonated beverages. But don't disregard diet drinks. The lack of sugar in these products doesn't mean they don't erode the teeth, Bassiouny said. Carbonation could make the drink more acidic, he said.
A patient whom Bassiouny examined had drunk a liter of diet soda every day for the last three years. He likened her teeth to those of a methamphetamine user. The corrosive chemicals from the drug can cause extensive oral damage commonly known as "meth mouth," in which teeth decay, crack and crumble.
Citric juices
A study published this year in the Journal of Dentistry showed that orange juice decreased enamel hardness by 84 percent. Lemon, orange and grapefruit juice can strip away the enamel with their acidity.
"We encourage adults if they're going to have kids drink fruit juices, which is good in a way, that they consume it all at once instead of sipping on it all day long," Stanford said.
Lemon juice showed the highest erosion, according to Bassiouny's study, which was published in the May-June issue of General Dentistry.
"We're not saying, 'Don't drink orange juice," Bassiouny said. "Don't drink orange juice then go to the office, then have a diet soda at lunchtime. You are asking for trouble because of the frequency of the contact and the challenge of the acid contact to your teeth."
Tea
The drink sometimes considered a super food because of its antioxidant content can cause tooth erosion, but not as much as citric juices, soda and energy and sports drinks.
In Bassiouny's study, human teeth were soaked in unsweetened green and black tea, and they did not erode until the 16th week. Teeth soaked in lemon juice, vinegar, and soda showed physical changes by the second week. Teeth soaked in black tea eroded more rapidly than those in green tea.
Don't Miss
* Using dentists as dope dealers
"Tea is controversial," Stanford said. "Certain types of tea can actually stabilize the amount of tooth loss or demineralization of the surface. Others, if they have a low pH, can cause natural erosion of the tooth surface."
This doesn't mean people should avoid tea or citric juices, Bassiouny said. The key is to practice moderation. He suggested keeping acidic beverages to fewer than five servings a week and avoiding sugary canned teas.
Limitations
Dentists acknowledge that the methodology of the erosion studies have flaws. The teeth were soaked in beverages because it's impossible to re-create the human mouth in a laboratory. And the experiments do not take into consideration the natural defense humans have against acid -- their saliva.
"Saliva naturally protects teeth to reverse the acid attack," Stanford said.
While the studies have limitations, this should not discount the findings, Bassiouny said. The dental studies attempt to show the accelerated effect of a person drinking common beverages. "We adopted a lab setup to simulate the number of hours that the patient has been exposed to that challenge and to magnify that," he said.
Basic tips to avoid tooth erosion
# Drink the acidic beverage at once, instead of sipping it all day
# Use a straw to avoid the teeth from being immersed in liquid
# Substitute acidic beverages with water
# Rinse mouth with water after drinking acidic beverage instead of brushing. The bristles of the toothbrush may damage the enamel.
All the world will be your enemy, Prince with a thousand enemies, and whenever they catch you, they will kill you. But first they must catch you, digger, listener, runner, prince with the swift warning. Be cunning and full of tricks and your people shall never be destroyed.
And I don't believe a word about the organics being no healthier. I have my own health and physical history to disprove that theory.
Placebo effect, nothing more. If you think you're healthier, you probably are.
i've read of people switching to an organic diet and whole foods, not processed, and reversing the effects of autism and other things
don't compete; coexist
what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?
"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama
when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
Now this news, focusing on the juices people...not the "sports drinks":
Juices, tea and energy drinks erode teeth
updated 2:02 p.m. EDT, Wed July 29, 2009
By Madison Park
CNN
(CNN) -- For years, dentists have warned patients about the decaying effects of cola and sugary, fizzy drinks on their teeth.
Acidic drinks that are healthier than soda caused tooth erosion in dental experiments.
Acidic drinks that are healthier than soda caused tooth erosion in dental experiments.
Research shows that other drinks thought to be better --fruit juices, teas and energy drinks-- can also have harmful effects on teeth, turning the pearly whites to shrinking, spotted yellows marred with pockmarks.
Dentists say sipping fluorescent-colored sports drinks, carbonated beverages and citric fruit juices bathe the teeth in harmful acids. The constant exposure strips the hard, protective layer of the tooth called the enamel and could dissolve the entire tooth.
"We all became aware of the sugar on your teeth. What most of us don't know is the acid," said Dr. Mohamed Bassiouny, a restorative dentistry professor at Temple University. "Cavities form when bacteria in the mouth mixes with sugar, leading to decay. Erosion occurs when chemicals strip the mineral off the teeth.
"The seriousness of the erosion is far more than decay," said Bassiouny. "Erosion affects all teeth at once, as you can imagine acidic fluid is running through the entire mouth."
This causes hypersensitivity, discoloration and cracks on the teeth. Serious cases require crowns or even dentures if entire teeth have disintegrated.
Research in Europe has linked that acidic beverage consumption to increasing tooth erosion. A person who has bulimia or acid reflux disease could get tooth erosion, because of stomach acids in their mouth, but the more common culprits are often beverages, Bassiouny said. Here are some of them:
Energy drinks
Researchers at the University of Iowa's College of Dentistry found that energy drinks and sports drinks, such as Gatorade and Red Bull, eroded the enamel more than soda and fruit juices. In a 2008 study published in the journal Nutritional Research, the dentists soaked extracted human teeth in various liquids for 25 hours, and then measured the structural changes, or lesions.
"Power drinks can be quite acidic, usually because there is an addition of citric acid to those to give it tartness that is desired by some consumers," said Dr. Clark Stanford, the associate dean for research at the University of Iowa College of Dentistry. "It's important to look at the label and see if citric acid has been added."
Soda (including diet)
Dentists have warned for years the perils of carbonated beverages. But don't disregard diet drinks. The lack of sugar in these products doesn't mean they don't erode the teeth, Bassiouny said. Carbonation could make the drink more acidic, he said.
A patient whom Bassiouny examined had drunk a liter of diet soda every day for the last three years. He likened her teeth to those of a methamphetamine user. The corrosive chemicals from the drug can cause extensive oral damage commonly known as "meth mouth," in which teeth decay, crack and crumble.
Citric juices
A study published this year in the Journal of Dentistry showed that orange juice decreased enamel hardness by 84 percent. Lemon, orange and grapefruit juice can strip away the enamel with their acidity.
"We encourage adults if they're going to have kids drink fruit juices, which is good in a way, that they consume it all at once instead of sipping on it all day long," Stanford said.
Lemon juice showed the highest erosion, according to Bassiouny's study, which was published in the May-June issue of General Dentistry.
"We're not saying, 'Don't drink orange juice," Bassiouny said. "Don't drink orange juice then go to the office, then have a diet soda at lunchtime. You are asking for trouble because of the frequency of the contact and the challenge of the acid contact to your teeth."
Tea
The drink sometimes considered a super food because of its antioxidant content can cause tooth erosion, but not as much as citric juices, soda and energy and sports drinks.
In Bassiouny's study, human teeth were soaked in unsweetened green and black tea, and they did not erode until the 16th week. Teeth soaked in lemon juice, vinegar, and soda showed physical changes by the second week. Teeth soaked in black tea eroded more rapidly than those in green tea.
Don't Miss
* Using dentists as dope dealers
"Tea is controversial," Stanford said. "Certain types of tea can actually stabilize the amount of tooth loss or demineralization of the surface. Others, if they have a low pH, can cause natural erosion of the tooth surface."
This doesn't mean people should avoid tea or citric juices, Bassiouny said. The key is to practice moderation. He suggested keeping acidic beverages to fewer than five servings a week and avoiding sugary canned teas.
Limitations
Dentists acknowledge that the methodology of the erosion studies have flaws. The teeth were soaked in beverages because it's impossible to re-create the human mouth in a laboratory. And the experiments do not take into consideration the natural defense humans have against acid -- their saliva.
"Saliva naturally protects teeth to reverse the acid attack," Stanford said.
While the studies have limitations, this should not discount the findings, Bassiouny said. The dental studies attempt to show the accelerated effect of a person drinking common beverages. "We adopted a lab setup to simulate the number of hours that the patient has been exposed to that challenge and to magnify that," he said.
Basic tips to avoid tooth erosion
# Drink the acidic beverage at once, instead of sipping it all day
# Use a straw to avoid the teeth from being immersed in liquid
# Substitute acidic beverages with water
# Rinse mouth with water after drinking acidic beverage instead of brushing. The bristles of the toothbrush may damage the enamel.
what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?
"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama
when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
wow, i heart scott niblett, EXCELLENT thread!!!!
i agree with most of the posts so far.
- read omnivore's dilemma.
-i also have food, inc on my netflix cue.
- weenie, i think you are i are related. i found that eating healthier makes a HUGE difference in the way i feel. i can also tell within minutes if a food i ate is going to cause me problems. i too, had bad migranes, had brain scans, was on various migraine medications, etc, but i STILL got migraines. my doctor suggested changed my diet. this is a board certified physician. first he said to cut out all sugar and foods with preservatives. within a few weeks i felt better. now i try to eat as healthy as i can.
Comments
that movie has been on my netflix queue since i first heard of it.
anyhoo...i really appreciate all the information presented here!
and ty.....see, it seems like ya just can't win. :evil: but there just HAS to be a better, less cruel, way than factory farming.
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
Nature did not design cows to eat corn. It makes the cows sick. I read in either Fast Food Nation or in Pollen's Ominovore's Dilemmma that if the animals were not slaughtered when they are, their corn diet would lead them to die at high rates as their stomachs deteriorated. A lot of animals are being fed things they were not designed by nature to eat. Man is among them. Look at our hydogenatated fats, which without doubt are linked to diabetes and coronary disease in a variety of well-respected studies. Look at the PBAs in our plastic bottles, etc. They leech into our food. And when they do, after enough exposure through the years, it begins to look like they are contributing to our skyrocketing cases of cancer.
As an aside, cats are being fed corn. I had no idea. I got my first cat and began to feed it a popular commercial brand thinking that cat food makers know what they're doing. (They do. They know how to turn a profit.) The cat began to vomit all the time for days at a time. I finally checked the label on the food it was eating. One of the main ingredients in the food was corn. Cats are not vegetarians. I switched the cat to a diet far more closely resembling what nature intended, and within hours it stopped the vomiting routine. The cat graphically served as reinforcement to me that when people go against nature in their food choices, sickness and disease are not far behind.
My father had a little saying, "There are no infirmities of old age; they are the sins of our youth." He heard this from a doctor he liked. I think that doctor was pretty much right on, and that we often pay for sins we have no idea that we've been committing--like switching from butter to margarine in an effort to improve our health (up to 1/2 the stick of margarine is trans fat, way worse than the saturated fat in the butter we were trying to avoid). It is something to think about.
A diet that includes doses of antibiotics to us through the meats we consume is not what nature intended. It cannot be good for us.
i've not heard of health issues related to free-range chickens ...
great post JR8805
It is a scientific reality that ingesting pesticides is not ideal. Human beings have not evolved to thrive on a steady diet of pesticides and antibiotics.
and the pessimist/little faith in humanity of my husband
***
Organic is more expensive up front, but I think it pays off in the long run. It would be ideal to have everything free range, truly free range, as the chickens where I grew up were, but it is better to have an organically-fed animal than one commercially raised. I think it's easy to get into an all or nothing mentality--you know, gotta run six miles every day, or might as well lay on the couch and eat six cheeseburgers thing. But the truth generally is that even little changes all made in the right direction often Yield very positive outcomes. Sure, it's cheaper to eat off the dollar menu at the fast food drive up today, but if you keep doing it, your bypass is going to cost you way more down the line. And you know, the way health insurance is going, like mine is, right now I'm being charged 20% of any procedure I end up having. A $300,000 surgery is going to directly cost you--out of your pocket--$60,000. If there's no further inflation. The dollar menu starts not to look all that cheap when you look at it like this.
My point is, I think it's important to eat organic where it makes sense (like the "Dirty Dozen" list http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13737389/page/2/), to try to keep up with the latest on what is being shown to be highly suspicious or outright bad for your health from reputable sources, to exercise--walking is good!, to not eat to excess, and to stay away from too much alcohol and tobacco. I think that in doing these things, you can live longer and have a higher quality of life until you do die.
I'd like to amend this: I think it is possible to drink so that it doesn't really have a negative affect on human health--lightly; but, I'm not at all sure the same is true of tobacco consumption. I don't think too many studies will come out showing benefit to health from smoking, whereas, there have been studies showing that light alcohol consumption can have some positive outcomes.
i do agree...and believe me, i eat as healthfully as i can, sans going organic/free-range.....yet - tho in the summer we do grow a lot of our own produce, and try to hit up farmer's markets when we can. i was really referencing tybird's post above, saying that free-range birds are more susceptible to bird flu.
and absolutely, all or nothing is not a good approach for most things, and lawd knows i'd never do a damn thing if that was my lifestyle of choice.
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
sure ... but the overwhelming negatives of factory farming don't come close to any potential impacts of free range chickens ...
the case against factory farming is damming not only in terms of health but sustainability
and absolutely, all or nothing is not a good approach for most things, and lawd knows i'd never do a damn thing if that was my lifestyle of choice.
***
Growing your own produce is always good! I don't think that free-range birds would be more susceptible to bird flu than those in cramped quarters. Antibiotics don't do anything against viruses. If the bird flu were to come to a factory-farmed coop in the US, those birds would go down with flu like tinder to a flame. They can't get away from each other. If one gets the flu, they'll all have it in short order, especially since they might tend to be more of a "monoculture" (more genetically the same) than a typical chicken might be. In a free-range chicken (a truly free range chicken--it does actually walk out the door), if a chicken were to contract the flu, it would be far less likely to infest the entire coop since the chicken would have some room. Why aren't wild birds dropping in countries where the avian flu is? Some must be. But, it's not droves of them. Why? Again, I think it's room. The birds are not all squashed together. If individuals get sick and die, they do. But they don't take down 1000s upon 1000s of birds with them every time they do. The birds going down are the "cramped" birds--the farmed birds. People getting the flu, with few exceptions so far, are people who are in very close contact with these farmed birds, often sleeping above the sick animals. (People actually getting the flu from other people so far as I know have also been from a "monoculture" of sorts--relatives of those who got the flu from birds.)
This fall, I'm fully expecting to see waves of "swine flu" sweep through cramped places--like classrooms and malls. If you breathe the same air 30 others or 100s of others, you're going to get sick.
Back to the chickens...I'm not for cruelty to animals, and I agree that free range is less cruel than factory. At least, theoretically it should be. Factory farms have another terrible effect...pollution. When you put 250,000 animals on a property, their waste will foul streams, rivers, etc. That waste is a potent toxin. But, for those people who don't care about other animals that much--and I admit to liking to be blind myself so I can eat my pork chop occasionally--a little self-interest could be a good motivator that might also result in a better life for the entire food chain involved.
VERY true!
whatever works, and benefits, the most....and not so homo-sapien specific or at least not always.
also, as tybird pointed out elsewhere....benefits the full food web.
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
***
Growing your own produce is always good! I don't think that free-range birds would be more susceptible to bird flu than those in cramped quarters. Antibiotics don't do anything against viruses. If the bird flu were to come to a factory-farmed coop in the US, those birds would go down with flu like tinder to a flame. They can't get away from each other. If one gets the flu, they'll all have it in short order, especially since they might tend to be more of a "monoculture" (more genetically the same) than a typical chicken might be. In a free-range chicken (a truly free range chicken--it does actually walk out the door), if a chicken were to contract the flu, it would be far less likely to infest the entire coop since the chicken would have some room. Why aren't wild birds dropping in countries where the avian flu is? Some must be. But, it's not droves of them. Why? Again, I think it's room. The birds are not all squashed together. If individuals get sick and die, they do. But they don't take down 1000s upon 1000s of birds with them every time they do. The birds going down are the "cramped" birds--the farmed birds. People getting the flu, with few exceptions so far, are people who are in very close contact with these farmed birds, often sleeping above the sick animals. (People actually getting the flu from other people so far as I know have also been from a "monoculture" of sorts--relatives of those who got the flu from birds.)[/quote]
The issue with the flu is not the conditions in which they, the chickens, live....as in cramped, dirty or unclean...it's possible exposure to WILD birds carrying the flu virus. Factory raised chickens have zero exposure to the outside environment other than being driven down the interstate on the chicken truck. Granted, it's a slight risk in any free range fowl...but it is a risk.
The change from common to organic food was so profound, that even though I now struggle to afford food, I still insist on eating mostly organic. I buy the more boring, cheaper options like brown rice from the bulk dispenser bins at Whole Foods Market. And the most delicious corn flakes I have ever tasted are sold by Trader Joe's. Just $2.39 for a large box of organic cereal, contains added A, B, C, D, and iron to help when I can't buy supplements.
(I tried adding your response to my earlier post as a second "re:" here, but I have not yet learned.) Regarding the outbreak of e coli among organic herds- The superbug affects all creatures. It is not limited to factory farms. Antibiotics caused the previously harmless intestinal bacteria of cattle to mutate into the modern deadly form. So all cows can carry it, whether they are raised organically or by the hormone and chemical route.
that's awesome!
and it's also so sad that for many of us this:
"The change from common to organic food was so profound, that even though I now struggle to afford food, I still insist on eating mostly organic."
is more than likely the reality, and for a great many, simply outside their reach. it just seems so wrong that what is best for us, best for animals, best for the planet...is so unaffordable for so many. i do understand the 'whys' of it, but it would be great to see that change for the better.
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/ ... o=newsnow&
Wash me in the blood of Rock & Roll
They started throwing up more often but I just learned from an earlier poster that it was due to corn content. They are still "pretty boys" but their coats lack the lustre and depth they had on the organic stuff.
This is a great thread. I've learned a LOT! Thanks everyone.
And I don't believe a word about the organics being no healthier. I have my own health and physical history to disprove that theory.
Mohandas K. Gandhi
~I once had a sparrow alight upon my shoulder for a moment, while I was hoeing in a village garden, and I felt that I was more distinguished by that circumstance than I should have been by any epaulette I could have worn.~
Henry David Thoreau
Placebo effect, nothing more. If you think you're healthier, you probably are.
Wash me in the blood of Rock & Roll
The issue with the flu is not the conditions in which they, the chickens, live....as in cramped, dirty or unclean...it's possible exposure to WILD birds carrying the flu virus. Factory raised chickens have zero exposure to the outside environment other than being driven down the interstate on the chicken truck. Granted, it's a slight risk in any free range fowl...but it is a risk.[/quote]
Maybe the avian flu originated with wild birds. I don't know. However, I do know that you don't read about massive deaths of wild birds from the flu. So, crowded conditions do have something to do with the flu passing around, just like crowded conditions at the mall encourage disease to spread. Another big factor in the flu is that chickens kept in captivity appear to be the only "reliable" in the whole picture. I don't think that free-range chickens would be at any more risk than factory farmed ones. Most free range chickens never leave their coops, anyway. Only the old-style, family farm scenarios have chickens that actually ever leave the barn.
And for every argument, a counter-argument.
http://www.alternet.org/healthwellness/81773/
http://www.foodnavigator.com/Science-Nu ... e-vitamins
In addition, organic foods have almost no pesticide residues (since pesticides aren't used in growing them) and they are more environmentally friendly since runoff from organic farms doesn't involve the pesticides, either.
Many of the studies show that organics are no different than conventionally grown foods have been funded by big agriculture/the chemical industry. The studies showing organics are better, are miraculously provided by the organic side of the fence. What to believe? I'm biased toward "the logical side." If farming is depleting your top soil, like conventional farming is, little by little, it seems to me you also have to be degrading your plant, and therefore your nutrition. I believe that tiny amounts of nutrients can make a huge overall impact on your diet. We don't know all there is to know about nutrients and which are essential to us. A few years ago, pet food for cats did not include taurine, because no one knew it was important. Now it's recognized as a critical component for their health. Micronutrients may have the same sort of role in a human diet. I don't know this to be true. It just makes sense to me.
That's the problem. Nobody wants to believe the science anymore. Whether it's the loonies skeptical of Global Warming, or those warning of the "supposed" dangers of agricultural chemicals. It's all the same. If the science disagrees with your beliefs, then deny the science.
Wash me in the blood of Rock & Roll
If a virus is introduced into domestic birds under factory farm conditions, yes...it will spread easier and at an accelerated rate. However, the avian flu that we have seen in the last couple years is unlikely to jump from a wild population to the factory farmed population because there is no contact between them.
I surmised that would be your comeback. You can use that reasoning for just about anything under the sun. You're entitled to your opinion, but I know better from my own skin, nails, hair, body odor etc AND lessened ailments. Here's an example, most non-organic food utilizes some form or other of preservative. It just so happens that preservatives are triggers for migraine headaches. I've controlled the ingestion of preservatives by not eating at fast food or other restaurants where the food is not prepared individually to order, and by reading the labels on everything I buy to ingest.
Before I started going thru this exercise, I would suffer from three or four migraines a week. Now? If I drink wine or alcohol, or eat chocolate I know I'll get one. Other than that, no migraines from food sources. Organics have made a huge difference in my life. Granted, not all triggers can be controlled, there's still stress and environmental factors. However organic foods and juices have made a phenomenal difference. If I ingest something with preservatives in it, I know it in less than 10 minutes. A blanket statement that organics make no difference whatsoever is just plain incorrect.
Mohandas K. Gandhi
~I once had a sparrow alight upon my shoulder for a moment, while I was hoeing in a village garden, and I felt that I was more distinguished by that circumstance than I should have been by any epaulette I could have worn.~
Henry David Thoreau
But what would happen if you ate "organic" chocolate? You know, organically processed cocoa, pure cane sugar, etc. I bet you'd get a migraine. Because (IIRC) it's the naturally-occurring theobromine in chocolate, and red wine, that causes migraines. It has nothing to do with organic or processed.
Wash me in the blood of Rock & Roll
Yes, I knew about the problem with red wine and chocolate. I drink white wine, but the sulfites mess me up.
Can't win on that one. :(
Mohandas K. Gandhi
~I once had a sparrow alight upon my shoulder for a moment, while I was hoeing in a village garden, and I felt that I was more distinguished by that circumstance than I should have been by any epaulette I could have worn.~
Henry David Thoreau
Juices, tea and energy drinks erode teeth
updated 2:02 p.m. EDT, Wed July 29, 2009
By Madison Park
CNN
(CNN) -- For years, dentists have warned patients about the decaying effects of cola and sugary, fizzy drinks on their teeth.
Acidic drinks that are healthier than soda caused tooth erosion in dental experiments.
Acidic drinks that are healthier than soda caused tooth erosion in dental experiments.
Research shows that other drinks thought to be better --fruit juices, teas and energy drinks-- can also have harmful effects on teeth, turning the pearly whites to shrinking, spotted yellows marred with pockmarks.
Dentists say sipping fluorescent-colored sports drinks, carbonated beverages and citric fruit juices bathe the teeth in harmful acids. The constant exposure strips the hard, protective layer of the tooth called the enamel and could dissolve the entire tooth.
"We all became aware of the sugar on your teeth. What most of us don't know is the acid," said Dr. Mohamed Bassiouny, a restorative dentistry professor at Temple University. "Cavities form when bacteria in the mouth mixes with sugar, leading to decay. Erosion occurs when chemicals strip the mineral off the teeth.
"The seriousness of the erosion is far more than decay," said Bassiouny. "Erosion affects all teeth at once, as you can imagine acidic fluid is running through the entire mouth."
This causes hypersensitivity, discoloration and cracks on the teeth. Serious cases require crowns or even dentures if entire teeth have disintegrated.
Research in Europe has linked that acidic beverage consumption to increasing tooth erosion. A person who has bulimia or acid reflux disease could get tooth erosion, because of stomach acids in their mouth, but the more common culprits are often beverages, Bassiouny said. Here are some of them:
Energy drinks
Researchers at the University of Iowa's College of Dentistry found that energy drinks and sports drinks, such as Gatorade and Red Bull, eroded the enamel more than soda and fruit juices. In a 2008 study published in the journal Nutritional Research, the dentists soaked extracted human teeth in various liquids for 25 hours, and then measured the structural changes, or lesions.
"Power drinks can be quite acidic, usually because there is an addition of citric acid to those to give it tartness that is desired by some consumers," said Dr. Clark Stanford, the associate dean for research at the University of Iowa College of Dentistry. "It's important to look at the label and see if citric acid has been added."
Soda (including diet)
Dentists have warned for years the perils of carbonated beverages. But don't disregard diet drinks. The lack of sugar in these products doesn't mean they don't erode the teeth, Bassiouny said. Carbonation could make the drink more acidic, he said.
A patient whom Bassiouny examined had drunk a liter of diet soda every day for the last three years. He likened her teeth to those of a methamphetamine user. The corrosive chemicals from the drug can cause extensive oral damage commonly known as "meth mouth," in which teeth decay, crack and crumble.
Citric juices
A study published this year in the Journal of Dentistry showed that orange juice decreased enamel hardness by 84 percent. Lemon, orange and grapefruit juice can strip away the enamel with their acidity.
"We encourage adults if they're going to have kids drink fruit juices, which is good in a way, that they consume it all at once instead of sipping on it all day long," Stanford said.
Lemon juice showed the highest erosion, according to Bassiouny's study, which was published in the May-June issue of General Dentistry.
"We're not saying, 'Don't drink orange juice," Bassiouny said. "Don't drink orange juice then go to the office, then have a diet soda at lunchtime. You are asking for trouble because of the frequency of the contact and the challenge of the acid contact to your teeth."
Tea
The drink sometimes considered a super food because of its antioxidant content can cause tooth erosion, but not as much as citric juices, soda and energy and sports drinks.
In Bassiouny's study, human teeth were soaked in unsweetened green and black tea, and they did not erode until the 16th week. Teeth soaked in lemon juice, vinegar, and soda showed physical changes by the second week. Teeth soaked in black tea eroded more rapidly than those in green tea.
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"Tea is controversial," Stanford said. "Certain types of tea can actually stabilize the amount of tooth loss or demineralization of the surface. Others, if they have a low pH, can cause natural erosion of the tooth surface."
This doesn't mean people should avoid tea or citric juices, Bassiouny said. The key is to practice moderation. He suggested keeping acidic beverages to fewer than five servings a week and avoiding sugary canned teas.
Limitations
Dentists acknowledge that the methodology of the erosion studies have flaws. The teeth were soaked in beverages because it's impossible to re-create the human mouth in a laboratory. And the experiments do not take into consideration the natural defense humans have against acid -- their saliva.
"Saliva naturally protects teeth to reverse the acid attack," Stanford said.
While the studies have limitations, this should not discount the findings, Bassiouny said. The dental studies attempt to show the accelerated effect of a person drinking common beverages. "We adopted a lab setup to simulate the number of hours that the patient has been exposed to that challenge and to magnify that," he said.
Basic tips to avoid tooth erosion
# Drink the acidic beverage at once, instead of sipping it all day
# Use a straw to avoid the teeth from being immersed in liquid
# Substitute acidic beverages with water
# Rinse mouth with water after drinking acidic beverage instead of brushing. The bristles of the toothbrush may damage the enamel.
http://www.cnn.com/2009/HEALTH/07/23/te ... index.html
i've read of people switching to an organic diet and whole foods, not processed, and reversing the effects of autism and other things
what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?
"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama
when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
man, what the fuck is juice?? give me some grape drink, sugar, water, purple!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b5OBNhkQZyk
what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?
"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama
when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
i agree with most of the posts so far.
- read omnivore's dilemma.
-i also have food, inc on my netflix cue.
- weenie, i think you are i are related. i found that eating healthier makes a HUGE difference in the way i feel. i can also tell within minutes if a food i ate is going to cause me problems. i too, had bad migranes, had brain scans, was on various migraine medications, etc, but i STILL got migraines. my doctor suggested changed my diet. this is a board certified physician. first he said to cut out all sugar and foods with preservatives. within a few weeks i felt better. now i try to eat as healthy as i can.