70 percent of the antibioticsin US are fed to farm animals

polaris_x

arthurdent wrote:

Also, keep in mind that it takes alot more acreage per head to feed free-range livestock than it does in a confined operation.

yeah ... but there's the flip side to that ... disease, suffering, etc.

gabers

This website is a great resource for those that are interested in eating more healthy, especially if you are a meat eater (like myself). I also highly suggest reading "An Omnivore's Dilemna" to help paint the full picture of what truly entails factory farming, organic, and the like.

http://www.eatwild.com/

decides2dream

gabers wrote:

This website is a great resource for those that are interested in eating more healthy, especially if you are a meat eater (like myself). I also highly suggest reading "An Omnivore's Dilemna" to help paint the full picture of what truly entails factory farming, organic, and the like.

http://www.eatwild.com/

thanks!
i AM very interested, so i appreciate the information.


however, since you do seem knowledgeable...do you know, does organic meat necessarily entail free- range? or at least, far better living conditions than factory farming?

decides2dream

gabers wrote:

This website is a great resource for those that are interested in eating more healthy, especially if you are a meat eater (like myself). I also highly suggest reading "An Omnivore's Dilemna" to help paint the full picture of what truly entails factory farming, organic, and the like.

http://www.eatwild.com/

question - which book are you recommending?

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_b_0_1 ... nivore%27s


the straight-up "the omnivore's dilemma"....and not the other variations?
just curious.

gabers

decides2dream wrote:

gabers wrote:

This website is a great resource for those that are interested in eating more healthy, especially if you are a meat eater (like myself). I also highly suggest reading "An Omnivore's Dilemna" to help paint the full picture of what truly entails factory farming, organic, and the like.

http://www.eatwild.com/

thanks!
i AM very interested, so i appreciate the information.


however, since you do seem knowledgeable...do you know, does organic meat necessarily entail free- range? or at least, far better living conditions than factory farming?

No, organic does not necessarily mean free range. That's the catch a lot of people I think don't realize. Hypothetically, you could be eating organic beef that was not fully grass fed. In that case, you're more than likely eating meat from an animal that was very sick before it died, since cattle did not evolve to digest the grains we feed them, and they weren't given the drugs and antibiotics to attempt and make it feel a bit better before it was slaughtered. True grass fed beef is usually organic and often organic is grass fed, but not always. With chickens the term "free range" is also abused becaused by FDA rules, the label only requires access to free range. Many so called "free range" chickens are actually kept in a coop like most of the non free rangers, they just have an open door at the end of the facility with a small patch of grass to roam around on, which due to logistics means virtually none of the chickens actually leave their confines.

decides2dream

gabers wrote:

decides2dream wrote:

gabers wrote:

This website is a great resource for those that are interested in eating more healthy, especially if you are a meat eater (like myself). I also highly suggest reading "An Omnivore's Dilemna" to help paint the full picture of what truly entails factory farming, organic, and the like.

http://www.eatwild.com/

thanks!
i AM very interested, so i appreciate the information.


however, since you do seem knowledgeable...do you know, does organic meat necessarily entail free- range? or at least, far better living conditions than factory farming?

No, organic does not necessarily mean free range. That's the catch a lot of people I think don't realize. Hypothetically, you could be eating organic beef that was not fully grass fed. In that case, you're more than likely eating meat from an animal that was very sick before it died, since cattle did not evolve to digest the grains we feed them, and they weren't given the drugs and antibiotics to attempt and make it feel a bit better before it was slaughtered. True grass fed beef is usually organic and often organic is grass fed, but not always. With chickens the term "free range" is also abused becaused by FDA rules, the label only requires access to free range. Many so called "free range" chickens are actually kept in a coop like most of the non free rangers, they just have an open door at the end of the facility with a small patch of grass to roam around on, which due to logistics means virtually none of the chickens actually leave their confines.

see, and that's the part that makes me hesitant to lay out the $$$ for organic, b/c how do i know?
and the pessimist/little faith in humanity of my husband ...he thinks it's all a bunch of hooey. i know there are the labels, but as you say.....there is still grey area within that. however, i do still want to now more about it, and hope for better choices/solutions in the future.

gabers

decides2dream wrote:

gabers wrote:

This website is a great resource for those that are interested in eating more healthy, especially if you are a meat eater (like myself). I also highly suggest reading "An Omnivore's Dilemna" to help paint the full picture of what truly entails factory farming, organic, and the like.

http://www.eatwild.com/

question - which book are you recommending?

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_b_0_1 ... nivore%27s


the straight-up "the omnivore's dilemma"....and not the other variations?
just curious.

I recommend reading any of Michael Pollen's books you can get a hold of, but I most recommend "The Omnivore''s Dilemna: A Natural History of Four Meals". I've also read "In Defense of Food: An Eater's Manifesto", which was also a very enlightening read and kind of follows the other.

decides2dream

gabers wrote:

decides2dream wrote:

gabers wrote:

This website is a great resource for those that are interested in eating more healthy, especially if you are a meat eater (like myself). I also highly suggest reading "An Omnivore's Dilemna" to help paint the full picture of what truly entails factory farming, organic, and the like.

http://www.eatwild.com/

question - which book are you recommending?

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_b_0_1 ... nivore%27s


the straight-up "the omnivore's dilemma"....and not the other variations?
just curious.

I recommend reading any of Michael Pollen's books you can get a hold of, but I most recommend "The Omnivore''s Dilemna: A Natural History of Four Meals". I've also read "In Defense of Food: An Eater's Manifesto", which was also a very enlightening read and kind of follows the other.

cool, thanks.
back in my younger, more involved animal rights days...i read a LOT of books about factory farming, hunting, general animal rights, etc. could be very hit or miss, tho overall....a great education. so you bet, i am always interested in recommended readings, and especially nowadays.....when i most definitely accept my omnivorous nature.

weenie

gabers wrote:

decides2dream wrote:

gabers wrote:

This website is a great resource for those that are interested in eating more healthy, especially if you are a meat eater (like myself). I also highly suggest reading "An Omnivore's Dilemna" to help paint the full picture of what truly entails factory farming, organic, and the like.

http://www.eatwild.com/

question - which book are you recommending?

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_b_0_1 ... nivore%27s


the straight-up "the omnivore's dilemma"....and not the other variations?
just curious.

I recommend reading any of Michael Pollen's books you can get a hold of, but I most recommend "The Omnivore''s Dilemna: A Natural History of Four Meals". I've also read "In Defense of Food: An Eater's Manifesto", which was also a very enlightening read and kind of follows the other.

I also just had someone tell me about a movie called "Food Inc". She is not organic or veggie and the movie made a huge impact on her and her family's eating habits. I'm going to check into it.

Another great source for learning about your food is your locally owned health food store. Some of the chain health food stores might not be the most trustworthy sources, but your locally owned guys are pretty straight up about their animal products AND produce etc. since they stay in business by word of mouth and not huge advertising budgets. For most of the local guys, it's a way of life and they're happy to talk about what they sell.

tybird

polaris_x wrote:

arthurdent wrote:

Also, keep in mind that it takes alot more acreage per head to feed free-range livestock than it does in a confined operation.

yeah ... but there's the flip side to that ... disease, suffering, etc.

Always a flip side, yes indeed.....free-range chickens are more vulnerable to the various strains of bird flu due to possible interaction with wild birds.

decides2dream

weenie wrote:

I also just had someone tell me about a movie called "Food Inc". She is not organic or veggie and the movie made a huge impact on her and her family's eating habits. I'm going to check into it.

Another great source for learning about your food is your locally owned health food store. Some of the chain health food stores might not be the most trustworthy sources, but your locally owned guys are pretty straight up about their animal products AND produce etc. since they stay in business by word of mouth and not huge advertising budgets. For most of the local guys, it's a way of life and they're happy to talk about what they sell.

that movie has been on my netflix queue since i first heard of it. i don't think it'll be out on DVD for awhile, but it's on my saved list for when it is. we don't actually have any 'health FOOD' stores in our area anymore...amazingly. we have lots of nutrition places, but no health foods. of course, we have whole foods and things like it, but again...not quite the same.


anyhoo...i really appreciate all the information presented here!





and ty.....see, it seems like ya just can't win. :evil: but there just HAS to be a better, less cruel, way than factory farming.

tybird

decides2dream wrote:

and ty.....see, it seems like ya just can't win. :evil: but there just HAS to be a better, less cruel, way than factory farming.

For every give, there's take...yes, it's true.

JR8805

noahgenda wrote:

i love grass fed beef and buy it when i can just my 2 cents. i think grain fed beef was designed by hitler himself

Nature did not design cows to eat corn. It makes the cows sick. I read in either Fast Food Nation or in Pollen's Ominovore's Dilemmma that if the animals were not slaughtered when they are, their corn diet would lead them to die at high rates as their stomachs deteriorated. A lot of animals are being fed things they were not designed by nature to eat. Man is among them. Look at our hydogenatated fats, which without doubt are linked to diabetes and coronary disease in a variety of well-respected studies. Look at the PBAs in our plastic bottles, etc. They leech into our food. And when they do, after enough exposure through the years, it begins to look like they are contributing to our skyrocketing cases of cancer.

As an aside, cats are being fed corn. I had no idea. I got my first cat and began to feed it a popular commercial brand thinking that cat food makers know what they're doing. (They do. They know how to turn a profit.) The cat began to vomit all the time for days at a time. I finally checked the label on the food it was eating. One of the main ingredients in the food was corn. Cats are not vegetarians. I switched the cat to a diet far more closely resembling what nature intended, and within hours it stopped the vomiting routine. The cat graphically served as reinforcement to me that when people go against nature in their food choices, sickness and disease are not far behind.

My father had a little saying, "There are no infirmities of old age; they are the sins of our youth." He heard this from a doctor he liked. I think that doctor was pretty much right on, and that we often pay for sins we have no idea that we've been committing--like switching from butter to margarine in an effort to improve our health (up to 1/2 the stick of margarine is trans fat, way worse than the saturated fat in the butter we were trying to avoid). It is something to think about.

A diet that includes doses of antibiotics to us through the meats we consume is not what nature intended. It cannot be good for us.

polaris_x

tybird wrote:

polaris_x wrote:

arthurdent wrote:

Also, keep in mind that it takes alot more acreage per head to feed free-range livestock than it does in a confined operation.

yeah ... but there's the flip side to that ... disease, suffering, etc.

Always a flip side, yes indeed.....free-range chickens are more vulnerable to the various strains of bird flu due to possible interaction with wild birds.

i've not heard of health issues related to free-range chickens ...

great post JR8805

JR8805

arthurdent wrote:

decides2dream wrote:

gabers wrote:

After reading "An Omnivore's Dilemna" my eyes were totally opened. Among other changes in my lifestyle, I buy grass fed organic beef whenever possible. If more farms were ran like Joel Salatin's the world would be a much better, healthier, and more humane place.

i'll have to look into this book. idk anything about joel salatin's farming practices, but if it is a free-range farm and all.....i agree. i am really going to have to try and see how we can fit organic in our already crazy expensive food budget, and also to convince my husband of it.

90% of the whole "organic" movement is just marketing bullshit and has absolutely no basis in any scientific reality.

It is a scientific reality that ingesting pesticides is not ideal. Human beings have not evolved to thrive on a steady diet of pesticides and antibiotics.

JR8805

see, and that's the part that makes me hesitant to lay out the $$$ for organic, b/c how do i know?
and the pessimist/little faith in humanity of my husband ...he thinks it's all a bunch of hooey. i know there are the labels, but as you say.....there is still grey area within that. however, i do still want to now more about it, and hope for better choices/solutions in the future.

***

Organic is more expensive up front, but I think it pays off in the long run. It would be ideal to have everything free range, truly free range, as the chickens where I grew up were, but it is better to have an organically-fed animal than one commercially raised. I think it's easy to get into an all or nothing mentality--you know, gotta run six miles every day, or might as well lay on the couch and eat six cheeseburgers thing. But the truth generally is that even little changes all made in the right direction often Yield very positive outcomes. Sure, it's cheaper to eat off the dollar menu at the fast food drive up today, but if you keep doing it, your bypass is going to cost you way more down the line. And you know, the way health insurance is going, like mine is, right now I'm being charged 20% of any procedure I end up having. A $300,000 surgery is going to directly cost you--out of your pocket--$60,000. If there's no further inflation. The dollar menu starts not to look all that cheap when you look at it like this.

My point is, I think it's important to eat organic where it makes sense (like the "Dirty Dozen" list http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13737389/page/2/), to try to keep up with the latest on what is being shown to be highly suspicious or outright bad for your health from reputable sources, to exercise--walking is good!, to not eat to excess, and to stay away from too much alcohol and tobacco. I think that in doing these things, you can live longer and have a higher quality of life until you do die.

I'd like to amend this: I think it is possible to drink so that it doesn't really have a negative affect on human health--lightly; but, I'm not at all sure the same is true of tobacco consumption. I don't think too many studies will come out showing benefit to health from smoking, whereas, there have been studies showing that light alcohol consumption can have some positive outcomes.

decides2dream

JR8805 wrote:

see, and that's the part that makes me hesitant to lay out the $$$ for organic, b/c how do i know?
and the pessimist/little faith in humanity of my husband ...he thinks it's all a bunch of hooey. i know there are the labels, but as you say.....there is still grey area within that. however, i do still want to now more about it, and hope for better choices/solutions in the future.

***

Organic is more expensive up front, but I think it pays off in the long run. It would be ideal to have everything free range, truly free range, as the chickens where I grew up were, but it is better to have an organically-fed animal than one commercially raised. I think it's easy to get into an all or nothing mentality--you know, gotta run six miles every day, or might as well lay on the couch and eat six cheeseburgers thing. But the truth generally is that even little changes all made in the right direction often Yield very positive outcomes. Sure, it's cheaper to eat off the dollar menu at the fast food drive up today, but if you keep doing it, your bypass is going to cost you way more down the line. And you know, the way health insurance is going, like mine is, right now I'm being charged 20% of any procedure I end up having. A $300,000 surgery is going to directly cost you--out of your pocket--$60,000. If there's no further inflation. The dollar menu starts not to look all that cheap when you look at it like this.

My point is, I think it's important to eat organic where it makes sense (like the "Dirty Dozen" list http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13737389/page/2/), to try to keep up with the latest on what is being shown to be highly suspicious or outright bad for your health from reputable sources, to exercise--walking is good!, to not eat to excess, and to stay away from too much alcohol and tobacco. I think that in doing these things, you can live longer and have a higher quality of life until you do die.

i do agree...and believe me, i eat as healthfully as i can, sans going organic/free-range.....yet - tho in the summer we do grow a lot of our own produce, and try to hit up farmer's markets when we can. i was really referencing tybird's post above, saying that free-range birds are more susceptible to bird flu.

and absolutely, all or nothing is not a good approach for most things, and lawd knows i'd never do a damn thing if that was my lifestyle of choice. and my main impetus for free-range is it being far more crulety-free than factory farming, tho i know i would personally benefit from such as well.

tybird

polaris_x wrote:

i've not heard of health issues related to free-range chickens ...

great post JR8805

It is a potential that exists...the chickens in Asia ,while not what we define as "free range", did have access to the outside environment that factory-style chickens in the U.S. do not have.

tybird

JR8805 wrote:

Organic is more expensive up front, but I think it pays off in the long run.

The problem is that when you live from paycheck to paycheck.....looking out for the long run is something that you may not be able to rationalize at the up front.

polaris_x

tybird wrote:

polaris_x wrote:

i've not heard of health issues related to free-range chickens ...

great post JR8805

It is a potential that exists...the chickens in Asia ,while not what we define as "free range", did have access to the outside environment that factory-style chickens in the U.S. do not have.

sure ... but the overwhelming negatives of factory farming don't come close to any potential impacts of free range chickens ...

the case against factory farming is damming not only in terms of health but sustainability