Medical Bankruptcies in the USA

Gern Blansten

http://www.pnhp.org/new_bankruptcy_stud ... y-2009.pdf

Using a conservative definition, 62.1% of all bankruptcies in 2007 were medical; 92% of these
medical debtors had medical debts over $5000, or 10% of pretax family income. The rest met criteria for
medical bankruptcy because they had lost significant income due to illness or mortgaged a home to pay medical
bills. Most medical debtors were well educated, owned homes, and had middle-class occupations. Three
quarters had health insurance. Using identical definitions in 2001 and 2007, the share of bankruptcies attributable
to medical problems rose by 49.6%. In logistic regression analysis controlling for demographic factors,
the odds that a bankruptcy had a medical cause was 2.38-fold higher in 2007 than in 2001.
CONCLUSIONS: Illness and medical bills contribute to a large and increasing share of US bankruptcies.

Interesting....75% had health insurance

_

Gern Blansten wrote:

http://www.pnhp.org/new_bankruptcy_study/Bankruptcy-2009.pdf

Using a conservative definition, 62.1% of all bankruptcies in 2007 were medical; 92% of these
medical debtors had medical debts over $5000, or 10% of pretax family income. The rest met criteria for
medical bankruptcy because they had lost significant income due to illness or mortgaged a home to pay medical
bills. Most medical debtors were well educated, owned homes, and had middle-class occupations. Three
quarters had health insurance. Using identical definitions in 2001 and 2007, the share of bankruptcies attributable
to medical problems rose by 49.6%. In logistic regression analysis controlling for demographic factors,
the odds that a bankruptcy had a medical cause was 2.38-fold higher in 2007 than in 2001.
CONCLUSIONS: Illness and medical bills contribute to a large and increasing share of US bankruptcies.

Interesting....75% had health insurance

I posted something like this not too long ago and it went pretty much ignored. People think if they don't acknowledge facts then they don't exist, I guess. :roll:

jlew24asu

so more evidence that UHC can bankrupt the US. cool

soulsinging

jlew24asu wrote:

so more evidence that UHC can bankrupt the US. cool

Or evidence that the current inflated costs our private health care system has created has already bankrupted the US. I guess it depends on whether you let the facts form your opinion or let your opinion dictate what the facts mean.

jlew24asu

soulsinging wrote:

jlew24asu wrote:

so more evidence that UHC can bankrupt the US. cool

Or evidence that the current inflated costs our private health care system has created has already bankrupted the US. I guess it depends on whether you let the facts form your opinion or let your opinion dictate what the facts mean.

you've been waiting to use that line for a long time havn't you?

WaveCameCrashin

I have to admit I have never been able to understand how one could go bankrupt from medical bills. Dont people set themselves up on some kind of payment plan. Every medical bill Iv'e always had that's what I did. I do realize that some peoples bills can be in the hundreds of thousands. So Is that why one would file for bankruptcy knowing that they will never to be able to pay it off ?

soulsinging

jlew24asu wrote:

soulsinging wrote:

jlew24asu wrote:

so more evidence that UHC can bankrupt the US. cool

Or evidence that the current inflated costs our private health care system has created has already bankrupted the US. I guess it depends on whether you let the facts form your opinion or let your opinion dictate what the facts mean.

you've been waiting to use that line for a long time havn't you?

Nope, just occurred instantly to me as I read your response, as the irony was pretty hard to miss.

Gern Blansten

jlew24asu wrote:

so more evidence that UHC can bankrupt the US. cool

As recently as 1981, only 8% of families filing for bankruptcy
did so in the aftermath of a serious medical problem.

from the link...

Gern Blansten

prfctlefts wrote:

I have to admit I have never been able to understand how one could go bankrupt from medical bills. Dont people set themselves up on some kind of payment plan. Every medical bill Iv'e always had that's what I did. I do realize that some peoples bills can be in the hundreds of thousands. So Is that why one would file for bankruptcy knowing that they will never to be able to pay it off ?

Bankruptcy is when your liabilities exceed your assets

there are basically two kinds of individual bankruptcy....Chapter 11 where the court determines you have $X to be distributed to all debtors and then all debts are discharged or Chapter 13 where court says you have $X available per month to pay debtors and then they have to agree to live within those parameters

Even on payment plans the amounts can be outrageous

know1

prfctlefts wrote:

I have to admit I have never been able to understand how one could go bankrupt from medical bills. Dont people set themselves up on some kind of payment plan. Every medical bill Iv'e always had that's what I did. I do realize that some peoples bills can be in the hundreds of thousands. So Is that why one would file for bankruptcy knowing that they will never to be able to pay it off ?

The answer is that their medical bills are probably only a part of why they really went bankrupt. If they didn't have thousands and thousands in credit card debt, many of them could probably afford to make payments on their medical bills.

It's called living below your means and saving money for a rainy day....i.e. medical bills.

People don't live below their means and save anymore. They just buy with credit cards and make payments.

soulsinging

know1 wrote:

prfctlefts wrote:

I have to admit I have never been able to understand how one could go bankrupt from medical bills. Dont people set themselves up on some kind of payment plan. Every medical bill Iv'e always had that's what I did. I do realize that some peoples bills can be in the hundreds of thousands. So Is that why one would file for bankruptcy knowing that they will never to be able to pay it off ?

The answer is that their medical bills are probably only a part of why they really went bankrupt. If they didn't have thousands and thousands in credit card debt, many of them could probably afford to make payments on their medical bills.

It's called living below your means and saving money for a rainy day....i.e. medical bills.

People don't live below their means and save anymore. They just buy with credit cards and make payments.

jlew would tell you that living within your means is a bad thing and that taking on debt is a good thing for our economy.

Gern Blansten

know1 wrote:

prfctlefts wrote:

I have to admit I have never been able to understand how one could go bankrupt from medical bills. Dont people set themselves up on some kind of payment plan. Every medical bill Iv'e always had that's what I did. I do realize that some peoples bills can be in the hundreds of thousands. So Is that why one would file for bankruptcy knowing that they will never to be able to pay it off ?

The answer is that their medical bills are probably only a part of why they really went bankrupt. If they didn't have thousands and thousands in credit card debt, many of them could probably afford to make payments on their medical bills.

It's called living below your means and saving money for a rainy day....i.e. medical bills.

People don't live below their means and save anymore. They just buy with credit cards and make payments.

to stay on topic 62.1% of the bankruptcies we are discussing were due to medical bills

know1

soulsinging wrote:

know1 wrote:

prfctlefts wrote:

I have to admit I have never been able to understand how one could go bankrupt from medical bills. Dont people set themselves up on some kind of payment plan. Every medical bill Iv'e always had that's what I did. I do realize that some peoples bills can be in the hundreds of thousands. So Is that why one would file for bankruptcy knowing that they will never to be able to pay it off ?

The answer is that their medical bills are probably only a part of why they really went bankrupt. If they didn't have thousands and thousands in credit card debt, many of them could probably afford to make payments on their medical bills.

It's called living below your means and saving money for a rainy day....i.e. medical bills.

People don't live below their means and save anymore. They just buy with credit cards and make payments.

jlew would tell you that living within your means is a bad thing and that taking on debt is a good thing for our economy.

Good for him. I don't agree.

decides2dream

scb wrote:

Gern Blansten wrote:

http://www.pnhp.org/new_bankruptcy_study/Bankruptcy-2009.pdf

Using a conservative definition, 62.1% of all bankruptcies in 2007 were medical; 92% of these
medical debtors had medical debts over $5000, or 10% of pretax family income. The rest met criteria for
medical bankruptcy because they had lost significant income due to illness or mortgaged a home to pay medical
bills. Most medical debtors were well educated, owned homes, and had middle-class occupations. Three
quarters had health insurance. Using identical definitions in 2001 and 2007, the share of bankruptcies attributable
to medical problems rose by 49.6%. In logistic regression analysis controlling for demographic factors,
the odds that a bankruptcy had a medical cause was 2.38-fold higher in 2007 than in 2001.
CONCLUSIONS: Illness and medical bills contribute to a large and increasing share of US bankruptcies.

Interesting....75% had health insurance

I posted something like this not too long ago and it went pretty much ignored. People think if they don't acknowledge facts then they don't exist, I guess. :roll:

i remember that post!
and yea, i think it was a post in one of those threads that just fly by - especially if concerning healthcare lately :P.....so it wasn't entirely ignored, i remember it well. it's so sad. and those who think they are immune....really, they are simply LUCKY. we all are. i know FAR too many people, who thankfully not bankrupt, but the amount of debt and/or simply funds they had to outlay for their treatments...prohibitive. when one is dealing with serious illness.....that's enough and then some in and of itself. add in all those financial concerns, and sweet bejeebus, i don't know how some handle it all. and no, it's not just those w/o insurance, or those with low wages, educations, no savings, etc. it is scarily EASY to wipe out your nest egg, keep tapping your home equity, etc.....to pay for medical bills. so even if you do everything *right*.....serious illness can wreak havoc on your life...and on your finances.....both, horribly....

know1

Gern Blansten wrote:

to stay on topic 62.1% of the bankruptcies we are discussing were due to medical bills

The only way that could be true is if medical bills were the ONLY bills the person has.

For example, if a person is scraping by - means not bankrupt - with a couple of cars they are making payments on, a bunch of credit card debt and a house payment that's too high for their income and they suddenly have a serious medical condition and decide to file for bankruptcy because they can't afford the medical bills (ON TOP OF THEIR OTHER BILLS), then is it REALLY DUE to medical bills?

jlew24asu

soulsinging wrote:

jlew would tell you that living within your means is a bad thing and that taking on debt is a good thing for our economy.

what is it with you lately posts like these?

jlew24asu

know1 wrote:

Good for him. I don't agree.

I dont know why soul is saying such things lately but thats not what I would tell you. but I would go into debt IF it meant providing needed care for my child that I couldnt afford out of pocket.

soulsinging

jlew24asu wrote:

soulsinging wrote:

jlew would tell you that living within your means is a bad thing and that taking on debt is a good thing for our economy.

what is it with you lately posts like these?

It's frustration. Anytime we seem to be getting somewhere, it's like a wall goes up and you shut down. Here we have compelling evidence that we're being bankrupted by the health care system, and you refuse to discuss it as intelligently as you have many other things. People post their real life experiences and you say you think they're making it up (since we were bandying comparisons to one nameless poster, he likes to do that kind of thing too ). In many debates you've asked for hard numbers and studies, and then 2-3 different threads with hard numbers and studies get posted and go completely ignored. And then the trump card... the bootstraps argument. Take out a several thousand dollar loan like it's no big deal, whether or not you can pay it, work harder and pull yourself up by the bootstraps (which you admitted immediately is not exactly simple)... it's an attitude I guess I though you were above. That whole tired song and dance is as unrealistic and impractical as you (mostly rightly) say communism is and you know that. I hold you to a higher standard than most, so when I see you being deliberately obtuse or flippantly dismissive, it's annoying.

And it was another topic (something about regulating the financial industry), but I do recall you saying that debt is a good thing our economy.

But above all I'm about one week from the bar exam and I'm losing my mind. I think this is what women on the rag feel like... I occasionally burst out laughing for no apparent reason and occasionally feel like running to Canada to get free room and board in a nuthouse!

jlew24asu

soulsinging wrote:

It's frustration. Anytime we seem to be getting somewhere, it's like a wall goes up and you shut down. Here we have compelling evidence that we're being bankrupted by the health care system, and you refuse to discuss it as intelligently as you have many other things. People post their real life experiences and you say you think they're making it up (since we were bandying comparisons to one nameless poster, he likes to do that kind of thing too ). In many debates you've asked for hard numbers and studies, and then 2-3 different threads with hard numbers and studies get posted and go completely ignored.

because there is nothing to discuss. I have always said the system needs improvement. it's my opinion however that UHC will bankrupt our government over time.

soulsinging wrote:

And then the trump card... the bootstraps argument. Take out a several thousand dollar loan like it's no big deal,

stop putting words in my mouth please. I NEVER said it was no big deal. when it comes to healthcare debt, a few thousand dollars is doable because of the multitude of payment options. such as the amount being negotiated down and interest free low payments that can fit someones budget.

soulsinging wrote:

whether or not you can pay it, work harder and pull yourself up by the bootstraps (which you admitted immediately is not exactly simple)... it's an attitude I guess I though you were above.

when did I say anything is easy? Life is not easy. I dont feel sorry for those who refuse to work hard to better themselves. I came from nothing and didnt wait around for someone to take pity on me.

soulsinging wrote:

That whole tired song and dance is as unrealistic and impractical as you (mostly rightly) say communism is and you know that. I hold you to a higher standard than most, so when I see you being deliberately obtuse or flippantly dismissive, it's annoying.

And it was another topic (something about regulating the financial industry), but I do recall you saying that debt is a good thing our economy.

debt is a good thing any economy. it allows economies to grow. but, like anything else, it needs to be within means.

soulsinging wrote:

But above all I'm about one week from the bar exam and I'm losing my mind. I think this is what women on the rag feel like... I occasionally burst out laughing for no apparent reason and occasionally feel like running to Canada to get free room and board in a nuthouse!

ah, I've been meaning to ask you about that. good luck brotha.

Pepe Silvia

and don't forget there's MORE uninsured americans than the entire population of Canada

_

I heart Scout Niblett wrote:

and don't forget there's MORE uninsured americans than the entire population of Canada

And let's not forget all the UNDERinsured people we have and how most of those whose medical bills drove them to bankruptcy actually had insurance!

decides2dream

know1 wrote:

Gern Blansten wrote:

to stay on topic 62.1% of the bankruptcies we are discussing were due to medical bills

The only way that could be true is if medical bills were the ONLY bills the person has.

For example, if a person is scraping by - means not bankrupt - with a couple of cars they are making payments on, a bunch of credit card debt and a house payment that's too high for their income and they suddenly have a serious medical condition and decide to file for bankruptcy because they can't afford the medical bills (ON TOP OF THEIR OTHER BILLS), then is it REALLY DUE to medical bills?

i know you like to think *everyone* except for you of course, is up their eyeballs in debt and doesn't handle their $$$ well. yes, obviously, there ARe a LOT of people like that. however, there ALSO are people who DO live within their means - such as yourself, and sorry...you're not alone there - have no real debt outside of say a mortgage, save for a rainy day and all that.....and yet, medical bills can easily bankrupt them. we all know how prohibitively expensive medical procedures and treatments can be. honestly. so yes, while it is true what you say, it is also not the only scenario. also figure in those who 'scrape by'.....live within their meager means, but their means are meager....thus not much, if any to save....couple that with perhaps not having health insurance....and it is EASY to see this problem. does one really need to lose EVERYTHING they worked so hard for, saved for th future, etc......for healthcare? there HAS to be a better way. our system is far too dependent on where and who you work for, rather than simply a system that makes sure we all are covered.

know1

decides2dream wrote:

know1 wrote:

Gern Blansten wrote:

to stay on topic 62.1% of the bankruptcies we are discussing were due to medical bills

The only way that could be true is if medical bills were the ONLY bills the person has.

For example, if a person is scraping by - means not bankrupt - with a couple of cars they are making payments on, a bunch of credit card debt and a house payment that's too high for their income and they suddenly have a serious medical condition and decide to file for bankruptcy because they can't afford the medical bills (ON TOP OF THEIR OTHER BILLS), then is it REALLY DUE to medical bills?

i know you like to think *everyone* except for you of course, is up their eyeballs in debt and doesn't handle their $$$ well. yes, obviously, there ARe a LOT of people like that. however, there ALSO are people who DO live within their means - such as yourself, and sorry...you're not alone there - have no real debt outside of say a mortgage, save for a rainy day and all that.....and yet, medical bills can easily bankrupt them. we all know how prohibitively expensive medical procedures and treatments can be. honestly. so yes, while it is true what you say, it is also not the only scenario. also figure in those who 'scrape by'.....live within their meager means, but their means are meager....thus not much, if any to save....couple that with perhaps not having health insurance....and it is EASY to see this problem. does one really need to lose EVERYTHING they worked so hard for, saved for th future, etc......for healthcare? there HAS to be a better way. our system is far too dependent on where and who you work for, rather than simply a system that makes sure we all are covered.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.....

You're not seeing the forest for the trees. The point is - and I stated it right up front - you can't say that a bankruptcy was due just to a medical debt when there are literally hundreds of factors at play in people's lives that contributed to it. Whatever their personal scenario happens to be, it cannot be that a single thing caused their bankruptcy.

Gern Blansten

of course it could....that's the topic of this thread....that medical costs force thousands of bankruptcies

do you deny that?

_

know1 wrote:

Gern Blansten wrote:

to stay on topic 62.1% of the bankruptcies we are discussing were due to medical bills

The only way that could be true is if medical bills were the ONLY bills the person has.

So, let me get this straight.... You're saying that even if I'm a millionaire who lives within my means, as long as I have bills (doesn't EVERYONE have bills?), then even a billion dollar medical bill couldn't be blamed if I have to declare bankruptcy? Like maybe it's that $100/month cell phone bill that REALLY did me in?

soulsinging

know1 wrote:

Yeah, yeah, yeah.....

You're not seeing the forest for the trees. The point is - and I stated it right up front - you can't say that a bankruptcy was due just to a medical debt when there are literally hundreds of factors at play in people's lives that contributed to it. Whatever their personal scenario happens to be, it cannot be that a single thing caused their bankruptcy.

Sounds a bit disingenuousness to me. If you're humming along, finances are good, life is going smooth, then you get cancer and a $150k medical bill and file for bankruptcy... how can you possibly say the illness and health costs did not cause that bankruptcy? Who has a couple hundred thousand dollars stockpiled for a rainy day that isn't in the top 2-3% of earners in this country? We should all live like Buddhist monks just to ensure that if we ever get sick, we have the finances covered?

Gern Blansten

soulsinging wrote:

know1 wrote:

Yeah, yeah, yeah.....

You're not seeing the forest for the trees. The point is - and I stated it right up front - you can't say that a bankruptcy was due just to a medical debt when there are literally hundreds of factors at play in people's lives that contributed to it. Whatever their personal scenario happens to be, it cannot be that a single thing caused their bankruptcy.

Sounds a bit disingenuousness to me. If you're humming along, finances are good, life is going smooth, then you get cancer and a $150k medical bill and file for bankruptcy... how can you possibly say the illness and health costs did not cause that bankruptcy? Who has a couple hundred thousand dollars stockpiled for a rainy day that isn't in the top 2-3% of earners in this country? We should all live like Buddhist monks just to ensure that if we ever get sick, we have the finances covered?

exactly....

These people fail to think out of the box....they have this Rush Limbaugh inspired attitude that we are all on our own (or should be)....they don't see the big picture

decides2dream

know1 wrote:

decides2dream wrote:

know1 wrote:

The only way that could be true is if medical bills were the ONLY bills the person has.

For example, if a person is scraping by - means not bankrupt - with a couple of cars they are making payments on, a bunch of credit card debt and a house payment that's too high for their income and they suddenly have a serious medical condition and decide to file for bankruptcy because they can't afford the medical bills (ON TOP OF THEIR OTHER BILLS), then is it REALLY DUE to medical bills?

i know you like to think *everyone* except for you of course, is up their eyeballs in debt and doesn't handle their $$$ well. yes, obviously, there ARe a LOT of people like that. however, there ALSO are people who DO live within their means - such as yourself, and sorry...you're not alone there - have no real debt outside of say a mortgage, save for a rainy day and all that.....and yet, medical bills can easily bankrupt them. we all know how prohibitively expensive medical procedures and treatments can be. honestly. so yes, while it is true what you say, it is also not the only scenario. also figure in those who 'scrape by'.....live within their meager means, but their means are meager....thus not much, if any to save....couple that with perhaps not having health insurance....and it is EASY to see this problem. does one really need to lose EVERYTHING they worked so hard for, saved for th future, etc......for healthcare? there HAS to be a better way. our system is far too dependent on where and who you work for, rather than simply a system that makes sure we all are covered.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.....

You're not seeing the forest for the trees. The point is - and I stated it right up front - you can't say that a bankruptcy was due just to a medical debt when there are literally hundreds of factors at play in people's lives that contributed to it. Whatever their personal scenario happens to be, it cannot be that a single thing caused their bankruptcy.

and you simply refuse to live in reality on this topic. of course everyone has other factors...one has to pya their bills and live too. THAT is the whole point. someone is living their life, paying their bills, providing for their family, hopefully saving for the future....being responsibile for themselves....and then, BAM! massive medical emeregency.....tons of medical bills....the average person - even WITH savings - cannot pay for it all. massive debt from it, danger of losing their home, everything they worked for, saved for, etc....for healthcare!? i sincerely hope it never happens to you know1....b/c you would see, even with all your savings and smart financial decisions, you too could well be faced with losing everything simply to pay for your cancer tretments, extensive hospital stays, prescription drugs, etc.

you seem to be the one not seeing the forest for the trees.

whenever someone files for bankruptcy there is a *reason*...an overlying reason why they could afford their life, and now can't afford their life. and this discussion is about how over 60% of bankrupcies today are now b/c of medical expenses.

blackredyellow

soulsinging wrote:

know1 wrote:

Yeah, yeah, yeah.....

You're not seeing the forest for the trees. The point is - and I stated it right up front - you can't say that a bankruptcy was due just to a medical debt when there are literally hundreds of factors at play in people's lives that contributed to it. Whatever their personal scenario happens to be, it cannot be that a single thing caused their bankruptcy.

Sounds a bit disingenuousness to me. If you're humming along, finances are good, life is going smooth, then you get cancer and a $150k medical bill and file for bankruptcy... how can you possibly say the illness and health costs did not cause that bankruptcy? Who has a couple hundred thousand dollars stockpiled for a rainy day that isn't in the top 2-3% of earners in this country? We should all live like Buddhist monks just to ensure that if we ever get sick, we have the finances covered?

Yeah.... And don't forget younger people... When I was in my early 20's working my first real full time job with health insurance, I hurt my shoulder. Luckily it was just separated and there was no damage, but what young adult could have afforded the ER vist, x-rays, pain meds, the follow up visit with an orthopedic doctor and MRI without insurance? Imagine if I needed surgery? I would have either been bankrupt, or paying off medical bills my entire life.

decides2dream

soulsinging wrote:

know1 wrote:

Yeah, yeah, yeah.....

You're not seeing the forest for the trees. The point is - and I stated it right up front - you can't say that a bankruptcy was due just to a medical debt when there are literally hundreds of factors at play in people's lives that contributed to it. Whatever their personal scenario happens to be, it cannot be that a single thing caused their bankruptcy.

Sounds a bit disingenuousness to me. If you're humming along, finances are good, life is going smooth, then you get cancer and a $150k medical bill and file for bankruptcy... how can you possibly say the illness and health costs did not cause that bankruptcy? Who has a couple hundred thousand dollars stockpiled for a rainy day that isn't in the top 2-3% of earners in this country? We should all live like Buddhist monks just to ensure that if we ever get sick, we have the finances covered?

and even beyond that....say you ARE fortunate in that yes, you can tap your home equity, or your retirement savings, or sure....you even DID save enough that you can cover it....is THAT a the system of 'healthcare' we want for us all? how does it even make sense? seriously? even amongst those who do 'everything right'.....save their money, live a healthy lifestyle.....still get stricken with life-threatening and expensive diseases......and run the risk of losing EVERYthing....their lives, and all they worked for. is THAT the system we want? i sure as shit don't.

Gern Blansten

I have a good example for you....happened about one year ago to a kid in my town

He was about 16 and developed leukemia....began treatments, covered under his father's insurance so no problem right?

Wrong

Turns out there was a $2,000,000 cap on the insurance policy....they burned through that in a year

Got an email that just about made me cry...from the mother...sending a plea to everyone she knew to please help them...the hospital wanted a check for $500,000 before they would begin treatment for a bone marrow transplant

Unbelievably they raised like $800,000 within a week or 10 days

This poor kid ended up dying a few months later....did that delay have anything to do with it???

This is what is wrong with our system....there are no excuses for this

Talk your way out of this one jlew