Libertarians

VINNY GOOMBAVINNY GOOMBA Posts: 1,818
edited July 2009 in A Moving Train
Is anyone on here a member of the Libertarian Party, or if not, consider themselves Libertarian-minded when describing your political beliefs?

Count me in.
Post edited by Unknown User on
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  • AnonAnon Posts: 11,175
    I'm actually a registered Democrat, but I'm now a Libertarian. I switched and I just haven't re-registered.
  • normnorm Posts: 31,146
    yo!
  • lukin2006lukin2006 Posts: 9,087
    Is anyone on here a member of the Libertarian Party, or if not, consider themselves Libertarian-minded when describing your political beliefs?

    Count me in.
    Yes
    I have certain rules I live by ... My First Rule ... I don't believe anything the government tells me ... George Carlin

    "Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
  • RW81233RW81233 Posts: 2,393
    I'm 50% libertarian...100% on social issues, 0% on economic issues, it's hilarious when I take that online libertarian test.
  • soulsingingsoulsinging Posts: 13,202
    Is anyone on here a member of the Libertarian Party, or if not, consider themselves Libertarian-minded when describing your political beliefs?

    Count me in.

    I consider myself Libertarian-minded. I'm a registered democrat though, because the republicans scare me too much. Their absurd swaggering foreign policy and Jesus-fueled moral hypocrisy at home are far more of a threat than the democrats pose as far as I'm concerned.

    Generally though, I'm for less government, ESPECIALLY in my private life. I don't like drug regulation or outlawing prostitution, I don't like the Bible taught in classrooms. I don't like outdated religious-based prejudices depriving my fellow citizens of their rights.

    That said, I'm not a total free market acolyte. I think we let corporations and banks and the like have far too much power and influence and it's absurd that we allow them to have rights and engage in practices that a regular citizen would be arrested for doing. That's bullshit. You can't trust industry to regulate itself.

    I also think national health care is a pretty good idea and think we should phase out most other federal programs to fund it... like medicare, medicaid, the dept of education, 3-4 of our 20 diff intelligence agencies, etc.
  • RW81233RW81233 Posts: 2,393
    wow i never knew we agreed on so much soulsinging...first red sox nation sucks and second a belief that free markets don't necessarily work...crazy
  • JeanwahJeanwah Posts: 6,363
    No way. I don't associate myself to any one party but like some aspects of a few parties (green, working families, Independant). I have a thing against hard core Libertarianism, but won't bore you guys with details.
  • VINNY GOOMBAVINNY GOOMBA Posts: 1,818
    Jeanwah wrote:
    No way. I don't associate myself to any one party but like some aspects of a few parties (green, working families, Independant). I have a thing against hard core Libertarianism, but won't bore you guys with details.

    Too much freedom = the wild west?
  • RW81233RW81233 Posts: 2,393
    Jeanwah wrote:
    No way. I don't associate myself to any one party but like some aspects of a few parties (green, working families, Independant). I have a thing against hard core Libertarianism, but won't bore you guys with details.

    Too much freedom = the wild west?
    maybe it could be that, in practice, the unfettered, free-market economic system has failed spectacularly in every place it has ever been tried.
  • VINNY GOOMBAVINNY GOOMBA Posts: 1,818
    RW81233 wrote:
    Jeanwah wrote:
    No way. I don't associate myself to any one party but like some aspects of a few parties (green, working families, Independant). I have a thing against hard core Libertarianism, but won't bore you guys with details.

    Too much freedom = the wild west?
    maybe it could be that, in practice, the unfettered, free-market economic system has failed spectacularly in every place it has ever been tried.

    When do you think this was actually tried? I wasn't there, but the last time any type of system resembling free markets was in place (in America anyway) was probably when this land still belonged to the natives.
  • RW81233RW81233 Posts: 2,393
    New Zealand, Argentina, and especially Chile tried using it with massive influences coming from Milton Friedman and the Chicago school...basically it worked well for a minute then imploded. Of course nothing is a perfect free-market economy, but the things that we got closest to it broke. To keep pushing for it is akin to a communist saying that if we didn't have corrupt individuals then our system would work...maybe we should all just learn from Scandanavia.
  • VINNY GOOMBAVINNY GOOMBA Posts: 1,818
    RW81233 wrote:
    New Zealand, Argentina, and especially Chile tried using it with massive influences coming from Milton Friedman and the Chicago school...basically it worked well for a minute then imploded. Of course nothing is a perfect free-market economy, but the things that we got closest to it broke. To keep pushing for it is akin to a communist saying that if we didn't have corrupt individuals then our system would work...maybe we should all just learn from Scandanavia.

    I don't know enough about any of those countries' economic histories to be able to agree or disagree with you, or be able to agree or disagree whether or not they were really as "free-market" as you say. But, you've got me highly interested to do some research. Thanks, actually. I would like to know what the pitfalls were in this system, if it has any that are truly significant. It is true that free markets are prone to adjustments, but they are just that, adjustments, unlike the huge fake bubbles that are created and manipulated through over-regulation as you see here in America, which in turn leave half the country jumping on the bandwagon when it's ready to collapse.
  • RW81233RW81233 Posts: 2,393
    RW81233 wrote:
    New Zealand, Argentina, and especially Chile tried using it with massive influences coming from Milton Friedman and the Chicago school...basically it worked well for a minute then imploded. Of course nothing is a perfect free-market economy, but the things that we got closest to it broke. To keep pushing for it is akin to a communist saying that if we didn't have corrupt individuals then our system would work...maybe we should all just learn from Scandanavia.

    I don't know enough about any of those countries' economic histories to be able to agree or disagree with you, or be able to agree or disagree whether or not they were really as "free-market" as you say. But, you've got me highly interested to do some research. Thanks, actually. I would like to know what the pitfalls were in this system, if it has any that are truly significant. It is true that free markets are prone to adjustments, but they are just that, adjustments, unlike the huge fake bubbles that are created and manipulated through over-regulation as you see here in America, which in turn leave half the country jumping on the bandwagon when it's ready to collapse.
    Obviously this comes from and/or helps form my point of view (which is why I always say I'm 50% libertarian), but check out A Brief History of Neoliberalism by David Harvey. He basically criticizes how the free-market has been bastardized by various nations (China, US, England, and so on), and even when it's been taken on more openly it goes wrong (NZ, Argentina, Chile). I believe he is known as a "critical geographer" (he did a famous study of Baltimore), and definitely comes from a leftist perspective just as fair warning.
  • VINNY GOOMBAVINNY GOOMBA Posts: 1,818
    RW81233 wrote:
    RW81233 wrote:
    New Zealand, Argentina, and especially Chile tried using it with massive influences coming from Milton Friedman and the Chicago school...basically it worked well for a minute then imploded. Of course nothing is a perfect free-market economy, but the things that we got closest to it broke. To keep pushing for it is akin to a communist saying that if we didn't have corrupt individuals then our system would work...maybe we should all just learn from Scandanavia.

    I don't know enough about any of those countries' economic histories to be able to agree or disagree with you, or be able to agree or disagree whether or not they were really as "free-market" as you say. But, you've got me highly interested to do some research. Thanks, actually. I would like to know what the pitfalls were in this system, if it has any that are truly significant. It is true that free markets are prone to adjustments, but they are just that, adjustments, unlike the huge fake bubbles that are created and manipulated through over-regulation as you see here in America, which in turn leave half the country jumping on the bandwagon when it's ready to collapse.
    Obviously this comes from and/or helps form my point of view (which is why I always say I'm 50% libertarian), but check out A Brief History of Neoliberalism by David Harvey. He basically criticizes how the free-market has been bastardized by various nations (China, US, England, and so on), and even when it's been taken on more openly it goes wrong (NZ, Argentina, Chile). I believe he is known as a "critical geographer" (he did a famous study of Baltimore), and definitely comes from a leftist perspective just as fair warning.

    To me, whether something is considered a free market is very black and white. "Bastardized" definitely disqualifies it instantly. What I'm willing to wager, without knowing 100% factually is that none of NZ, Argentina, and Chile had truly sound money in their attempts at a real free market economy. That is, money that is 100% backed by gold, silver, or some other stable commodity that has endured the test of time as having actual value. This is one of the major cornerstones of a real market economy, and to my knowledge, no country has had this type of system in place for years.
  • JeanwahJeanwah Posts: 6,363
    Jeanwah wrote:
    No way. I don't associate myself to any one party but like some aspects of a few parties (green, working families, Independant). I have a thing against hard core Libertarianism, but won't bore you guys with details.

    Too much freedom = the wild west?
    The freedom thing I tend to love but think it's completely unrealistic. Hard-core Libs I've talked to basically want to live where they want and do whatever they please, including shutting off the rest of society and humankind. They're basically mad at not only gov't intervening with their lives and money, but also neighbors, community and society. They want to make their money and not pay taxes. Run a business as they please, and profit without taking any accountability in their position in their communities (not giving back to those who made them prosperous). Fine, ok.

    Now, I'm not one for rules or laws, in fact I tend to break them (an instinct I tend to have) and also have issues with authority. That said, I believe in community, sharing, and taking care of one another. The Libertarian idealism of "I don't want anyone to interfere with my life"...well, what do they plan on doing, living in a hole? Granted, this is extreme Libs, but that's what it would come to in a nation that had a Libertarian style gov't, not being involved at all. Also, I agree with SS:
    I think we let corporations and banks and the like have far too much power and influence and it's absurd that we allow them to have rights and engage in practices that a regular citizen would be arrested for doing. That's bullshit. You can't trust industry to regulate itself.

    I also think national health care is a pretty good idea and think we should phase out most other federal programs to fund it... like medicare, medicaid, the dept of education, 3-4 of our 20 diff intelligence agencies, etc.

    He's right, corps and banks will never regulate themselves. They need guidelines that follow covering environmental and human health sustainability. If we don't have rules prolonging the health of our own species, we're screwed and our time here is much shorter overall. I'm also for nat'l health care and set guidelines for businesses pertaining to worker health and time off (America is the most over-worked and stressed out country; we do not take care of ourselves). Some would call this Socialist behavior...It's simply recognizing who we are (social animals) and emphasizing human care. We can't live in a hole and prosper.
  • VINNY GOOMBAVINNY GOOMBA Posts: 1,818
    Jeanwah wrote:
    Jeanwah wrote:
    No way. I don't associate myself to any one party but like some aspects of a few parties (green, working families, Independant). I have a thing against hard core Libertarianism, but won't bore you guys with details.

    Too much freedom = the wild west?
    The freedom thing I tend to love but think it's completely unrealistic. Hard-core Libs I've talked to basically want to live where they want and do whatever they please, including shutting off the rest of society and humankind. They're basically mad at not only gov't intervening with their lives and money, but also neighbors, community and society.

    Jeanwah wrote:
    Now, I'm not one for rules or laws, in fact I tend to break them sometimes (an instinct I tend to have) and also have issues with authority. That said, I believe in community, sharing, and taking care of one another. The Libertarian idealism of "I don't want anyone to interfere with my life"...well, what do they plan on doing, living in a hole? Granted, this is extreme Libs, but that's what it would come to in a nation that had a Libertarian style gov't, not being involved at all. Also, I agree with SS:


    I admit that this sounds a bit extreme, but if they're that isolated, who cares? They obviously aren't hurting anyone, they aren't having any impact on anybody, really... Life doesn't change for you, and how you do things because these people want to be hermits, right? If our nation had a Libertarian style government everyone would be living in the way they saw fit, whether they wanted isolation or not. Libertarians have no problem with other people being straight communists. I would go so far as to say that we don't care if other people in the same country lived under communist conditions localized to their town / city if that's what the people in that town / city determined was best for them. Just don't let it infringe on my liberty and my wallet.
    I think we let corporations and banks and the like have far too much power and influence and it's absurd that we allow them to have rights and engage in practices that a regular citizen would be arrested for doing. That's bullshit. You can't trust industry to regulate itself.

    I also think national health care is a pretty good idea and think we should phase out most other federal programs to fund it... like medicare, medicaid, the dept of education, 3-4 of our 20 diff intelligence agencies, etc.
    Jeanwah wrote:
    He's right, corps and banks will never regulate themselves. They need guidelines that follow covering environmental and human health sustainability. If we don't have rules prolonging the health of our own species, we're screwed and our time here is much shorter overall. I'm also for nat'l health care and set guidelines for businesses pertaining to worker health and time off (America is the most over-worked and stressed out country; we do not take care of ourselves). Some would call this Socialist behavior...It's simply recognizing who we are (social animals) and emphasizing human care. We can't live in a hole and prosper.

    The problem is, is that the "regulators" are as corrupt as any business they attempt to regulate-- or in their attempt to "regulate" they only end up writing and enforcing laws that on the surface appear to be keeping these companies in check, but are really only stifling competition, and lining their own pockets. Their is this huge misconception that Libertarians are for anarchy. This is not true. Libertarians don't believe in lawlessness, they want just laws that ensure that people can do pretty much whatever they want so long as someone else isn't being harmed by these actions. Sounds fair doesn't it? I am of the belief that business can be "regulated" fairly enough under basic laws against theft and fraud. "Regulation" has legalized fraud in this country. "Regulation" has allowed banks to counterfeit money. Having an-all powerful authority capable of overseeing business is inherently corrupt. The business being regulated only needs to grease the palms of it's overseer so much for it to be completely ineffective. What are we left with then but paying more money to the government so they can reap the rewards of falsely overseeing corrupt big business? It is only the people and the market place itself that should 'police' business with their choices. The reason this never gets to happen is because too many of these conglomerate businesses have deep roots in a crony-capiltalistic system for far too long. Too many advantages have been thrown their way by way of government to ensure that they will always survive, namely at the expense of the people.
  • PearlJainPearlJain Posts: 565
    Is anyone on here a member of the Libertarian Party, or if not, consider themselves Libertarian-minded when describing your political beliefs?

    Count me in.

    I consider myself Libertarian-minded. I'm a registered democrat though, because the republicans scare me too much. Their absurd swaggering foreign policy and Jesus-fueled moral hypocrisy at home are far more of a threat than the democrats pose as far as I'm concerned.

    Generally though, I'm for less government, ESPECIALLY in my private life. I don't like drug regulation or outlawing prostitution, I don't like the Bible taught in classrooms. I don't like outdated religious-based prejudices depriving my fellow citizens of their rights.

    That said, I'm not a total free market acolyte. I think we let corporations and banks and the like have far too much power and influence and it's absurd that we allow them to have rights and engage in practices that a regular citizen would be arrested for doing. That's bullshit. You can't trust industry to regulate itself.

    I also think national health care is a pretty good idea and think we should phase out most other federal programs to fund it... like medicare, medicaid, the dept of education, 3-4 of our 20 diff intelligence agencies, etc.

    Your remarks are way TOO funny!. BOTH The Leftists and the Rightest "scare" me. Not a "Libertarian" though - or would be unable to vote here in Florida - for some elections. I remain Independent. And while my "leanings" may "scare" some of YOU - some of your "leanings" equally scare ME as well.!
    The greatness of a nation can be judged by the way its animals are treated - Gandhi

    "Empty pockets will Allow a greater Sense of wealth...." EV/ITW
  • PearlJainPearlJain Posts: 565
    PearlJain wrote:
    Is anyone on here a member of the Libertarian Party, or if not, consider themselves Libertarian-minded when describing your political beliefs?

    Count me in.

    I consider myself Libertarian-minded. I'm a registered democrat though, because the republicans scare me too much. Their absurd swaggering foreign policy and Jesus-fueled moral hypocrisy at home are far more of a threat than the democrats pose as far as I'm concerned.

    Generally though, I'm for less government, ESPECIALLY in my private life. I don't like drug regulation or outlawing prostitution, I don't like the Bible taught in classrooms. I don't like outdated religious-based prejudices depriving my fellow citizens of their rights.

    That said, I'm not a total free market acolyte. I think we let corporations and banks and the like have far too much power and influence and it's absurd that we allow them to have rights and engage in practices that a regular citizen would be arrested for doing. That's bullshit. You can't trust industry to regulate itself.

    I also think national health care is a pretty good idea and think we should phase out most other federal programs to fund it... like medicare, medicaid, the dept of education, 3-4 of our 20 diff intelligence agencies, etc.

    Your remarks are way TOO funny!. BOTH The Leftists and the Rightest "scare" me. Not a "Libertarian" though - or would be unable to vote here in Florida - for some elections. I remain Independent. And while my "leanings" may "scare" some of YOU - some of your "leanings" equally scare ME as well.!

    "Vinnie Goomba" That is such a funny "user name." You sound all "mafia."
    The greatness of a nation can be judged by the way its animals are treated - Gandhi

    "Empty pockets will Allow a greater Sense of wealth...." EV/ITW
  • JeanwahJeanwah Posts: 6,363
    Sorry Pearl Jain, but I can't help but hear Chris Farley when reading your posts now. :lol:
  • VINNY GOOMBAVINNY GOOMBA Posts: 1,818
    PearlJain wrote:

    "Vinnie Goomba" That is such a funny "user name." You sound all "mafia."

    "What" "mafia" "are" "you" "talking" "about?" "I" "don't" "know" "anything" "about" "this" "mafia" "you" "speak" "of..." ;)
  • CommyCommy Posts: 4,984
    count me in. whenever an individual or institution is given power they fuck it up. every time. we need to find a system that accounts for power corrupting, and libertarian is a good place to start.


    the problem is corporations are institutions with authority-companies like wallmart make more money than countries like Greece, and they don't sit on that power. they spread, like a goddamn virus.

    so libertarian capitalism is out. if there is any doubts as to whether or not the free market is best for society, study US history in the 1900's. it failed. the workers rights we enjoy today were paid for in blood.


    capitalism, where profit is more important than life or the environment. fuck all that.


    i'm a libertarian socialist, small government, share the wealth, etc.
  • WaveCameCrashinWaveCameCrashin Posts: 2,929
    Commy wrote:
    share the wealth, etc

    Hey commy, I was wondering if you would help me out with my rent this month Im a little short.
  • CommyCommy Posts: 4,984
    prfctlefts wrote:
    Commy wrote:
    share the wealth, etc

    Hey commy, I was wondering if you would help me out with my rent this month Im a little short.


    yeah because that makes sense.


    its about labor, and being compensated fairly for it.


    guaranteed the coal miners are sweating more for that coal than the fatcats in their offices. but the fatcats are the guys making all the profit. and fuck all that. that's what i was referring too.
  • VINNY GOOMBAVINNY GOOMBA Posts: 1,818
    Commy wrote:
    count me in. whenever an individual or institution is given power they fuck it up. every time. we need to find a system that accounts for power corrupting, and libertarian is a good place to start.


    the problem is corporations are institutions with authority-companies like wallmart make more money than countries like Greece, and they don't sit on that power. they spread, like a goddamn virus.

    so libertarian capitalism is out. if there is any doubts as to whether or not the free market is best for society, study US history in the 1900's. it failed. the workers rights we enjoy today were paid for in blood.


    capitalism, where profit is more important than life or the environment. fuck all that.


    i'm a libertarian socialist, small government, share the wealth, etc.

    It is my personal belief that if you first limit the size of government and leave more money in the hands of the people, that the people WILL be more charitable to the causes of their choice.
  • CommyCommy Posts: 4,984
    Commy wrote:
    count me in. whenever an individual or institution is given power they fuck it up. every time. we need to find a system that accounts for power corrupting, and libertarian is a good place to start.


    the problem is corporations are institutions with authority-companies like wallmart make more money than countries like Greece, and they don't sit on that power. they spread, like a goddamn virus.

    so libertarian capitalism is out. if there is any doubts as to whether or not the free market is best for society, study US history in the 1900's. it failed. the workers rights we enjoy today were paid for in blood.


    capitalism, where profit is more important than life or the environment. fuck all that.


    i'm a libertarian socialist, small government, share the wealth, etc.

    It is my personal belief that if you first limit the size of government and leave more money in the hands of the people, that the people WILL be more charitable to the causes of their choice.


    i wonder about that. its a good theory, and people for the most part are good, i believe, but if there is no motivation for doing something, most of the time that something doesn't get done. i believe.

    if people are compensated fairly for their labor, say under a libertarian socialist model, and if that labor benefits something other than a corporation or an individual, if that labor benefits a community instead, directly, a motivator emerges. its in an individuals best interest to help their neighbor, because their neighbor is laboring for the benefit of the community. you help the neighbor, you help the community- and ultimately yourself, which is kind of important.


    good theory, you could be right. i would leave nothing to chance, were it up to me.
  • PearlJainPearlJain Posts: 565
    Jeanwah wrote:
    Sorry Pearl Jain, but I can't help but hear Chris Farley when reading your posts now. :lol:

    Sorry to you as well - Jenwah - I want to do laundry and thoroughly clean/bleach my house when I read any of YOUR posts. FUNNY as hell - isn't it?
    The greatness of a nation can be judged by the way its animals are treated - Gandhi

    "Empty pockets will Allow a greater Sense of wealth...." EV/ITW
  • JeanwahJeanwah Posts: 6,363
    PearlJain wrote:
    Jeanwah wrote:
    Sorry Pearl Jain, but I can't help but hear Chris Farley when reading your posts now. :lol:

    Sorry to you as well - Jenwah - I want to do laundry and thoroughly clean/bleach my house when I read any of YOUR posts. FUNNY as hell - isn't it?
    You don't have much of a sense of humor, do you? Lighten up. :D
  • PearlJainPearlJain Posts: 565
    Of course I have a sense of humor. See the Chris Farley Flack I've been taking. I get it. I was not trying to be offensive to you. If you're going to dish it (when you agree and/or make a comment) then - please be able to take it. I'm just handing it back is all. Do I truly feel this way about you ( of course not) although the Chris Farley comments are still being made about me. It's all good. And it remains very funny - even to me!
    I will always be a Chris Farley fan! Much love to you. Seriously.
    The greatness of a nation can be judged by the way its animals are treated - Gandhi

    "Empty pockets will Allow a greater Sense of wealth...." EV/ITW
  • PearlJainPearlJain Posts: 565
    PearlJain wrote:

    "Vinnie Goomba" That is such a funny "user name." You sound all "mafia."

    "What" "mafia" "are" "you" "talking" "about?" "I" "don't" "know" "anything" "about" "this" "mafia" "you" "speak" "of..." ;)

    Because I'm Irish. I still think you rock!
    The greatness of a nation can be judged by the way its animals are treated - Gandhi

    "Empty pockets will Allow a greater Sense of wealth...." EV/ITW
  • PearlJainPearlJain Posts: 565
    PearlJain wrote:
    PearlJain wrote:

    "Vinnie Goomba" That is such a funny "user name." You sound all "mafia."

    "What" "mafia" "are" "you" "talking" "about?" "I" "don't" "know" "anything" "about" "this" "mafia" "you" "speak" "of..." ;)

    Because I'm Irish. I still think you rock!

    Your comments (like numerous others) make me laugh. I really like to laugh. Despite differences.
    The greatness of a nation can be judged by the way its animals are treated - Gandhi

    "Empty pockets will Allow a greater Sense of wealth...." EV/ITW
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