Could you forgive your son's killer?

soulsinging

cincybearcat wrote:

soulsinging wrote:

This thread is truly fascinating. The ones who swear they'd kill the guy in cold blood... all the conservative, religious folks who claim to follow Jesus, a man who famously preached forgiveness and turning the other cheek. All the people saying they would forgive... godless liberals.

Huh? I don't think you have that right. But once again, paint your pretty pictures of that dream world.

And I think it's much easier to say you'd forgive then it is to really think what you would do. I'd be willing to bet that the majority of those that say they would forgive wouldn't be able to if it happened to them.

Pray tell, what do I have wrong about that then? By my count, all the folks saying violent retribution are self-professed Christians. All the ones advocating forgiveness are self-avowed atheists, agnostics, or some hippy shit like wiccans. Whether or not they'd live up to their talk is another thing, but I think I've already covered my thoughts on that count.

In any event, of course it's easy to talk about forgiveness... almost as easy as it it to talk about how you'd go all Chuck Norris and kill the guy. :roll:

cincybearcat

soulsinging wrote:

Pray tell, what do I have wrong about that then? By my count, all the folks saying violent retribution are self-professed Christians. All the ones advocating forgiveness are self-avowed atheists, agnostics, or some hippy shit like wiccans. Whether or not they'd live up to their talk is another thing, but I think I've already covered my thoughts on that count.

In any event, of course it's easy to talk about forgiveness... almost as easy as it it to talk about how you'd go all Chuck Norris and kill the guy. :roll:

I'm not a self-professed Christian.

I just think your post was shitty. Sure it'd be hard to follow through with either forgiveness or retribution. But the feeling I got inside when trying to think what I would do if it was my daughter told me I would probably be unabel to control myself. Who the hell really knows unless you live it anyhow? I know for sure I would be FAR closer to taking matters into my own hands than I would be to forgive someone that killed my little girl. I also think that unless you currently have a child, you have even less of an understanding what you would be likely to do.

soulsinging

cincybearcat wrote:

soulsinging wrote:

Pray tell, what do I have wrong about that then? By my count, all the folks saying violent retribution are self-professed Christians. All the ones advocating forgiveness are self-avowed atheists, agnostics, or some hippy shit like wiccans. Whether or not they'd live up to their talk is another thing, but I think I've already covered my thoughts on that count.

In any event, of course it's easy to talk about forgiveness... almost as easy as it it to talk about how you'd go all Chuck Norris and kill the guy. :roll:

I'm not a self-professed Christian.

I just think your post was shitty. Sure it'd be hard to follow through with either forgiveness or retribution. But the feeling I got inside when trying to think what I would do if it was my daughter told me I would probably be unabel to control myself. Who the hell really knows unless you live it anyhow? I know for sure I would be FAR closer to taking matters into my own hands than I would be to forgive someone that killed my little girl. I also think that unless you currently have a child, you have even less of an understanding what you would be likely to do.

I was under the impression you were a Christian. My bad then.

You make the point I tried to get at in my post... who knows what they'd do? At least a few of the forgiveness people said they couldn't imagine what it'd be like but they'd try to forgive or at least hope they would. The retribution folks just started their 'string im up' nonsense. Hell, you went one further with your pathetically cliched empty internet tough talk threat:

"That's exactly what I said I'd do...and my way would be way more effective as it'd be 100% sure."

If that isn't dick-swinging bluster I don't know what is. Now you admit you don't know what you'd actually do. So you were just posturing like a tough guy. You only think my post is shitty because it called you out and made you look kinda foolish for all that macho bluster.

decides2dream

cincybearcat wrote:

soulsinging wrote:

Pray tell, what do I have wrong about that then? By my count, all the folks saying violent retribution are self-professed Christians. All the ones advocating forgiveness are self-avowed atheists, agnostics, or some hippy shit like wiccans. Whether or not they'd live up to their talk is another thing, but I think I've already covered my thoughts on that count.

In any event, of course it's easy to talk about forgiveness... almost as easy as it it to talk about how you'd go all Chuck Norris and kill the guy. :roll:

I'm not a self-professed Christian.

I just think your post was shitty. Sure it'd be hard to follow through with either forgiveness or retribution. But the feeling I got inside when trying to think what I would do if it was my daughter told me I would probably be unabel to control myself. Who the hell really knows unless you live it anyhow? I know for sure I would be FAR closer to taking matters into my own hands than I would be to forgive someone that killed my little girl. I also think that unless you currently have a child, you have even less of an understanding what you would be likely to do.

this has been my thought as reading this thread, and thus why i have refrained from comment. no one can truly know how or what they would think or do....but as someone without children, i think even moreso. however, that said...i do think, if it were not your child, but say, your spouse (something i do have)....would that make a difference in your mind? could you 'forgive' your wife's killer more 'easily' for lack of a better term, than your child's killer? as i said, i don't have children thus will never really know what my preliminary thoughts even would be. however, while i doubt i could ever 'forgive' someone for killing my spouse, i think i would never personally seek retribution, nor even support the death penalty but would absolutely be in favor of imprisonment for life. my husband disagrees, as this is one of the few issues we do disagree; as he is a supporter of the death penalty.

cincybearcat

soulsinging wrote:

I was under the impression you were a Christian. My bad then.

You make the point I tried to get at in my post... who knows what they'd do? At least a few of the forgiveness people said they couldn't imagine what it'd be like but they'd try to forgive or at least hope they would. The retribution folks just started their 'string im up' nonsense. Hell, you went one further with your pathetically cliched empty internet tough talk threat:

"That's exactly what I said I'd do...and my way would be way more effective as it'd be 100% sure."

If that isn't dick-swinging bluster I don't know what is. Now you admit you don't know what you'd actually do. So you were just posturing like a tough guy. You only think my post is shitty because it called you out and made you look kinda foolish for all that macho bluster.

Someone asked a question. I answered it based on how I felt about the situation.

You seriously need some help, you've become extremely bitter and confrontational for no reason.

Macho bluster? What ever. I believe as I feel it now that if my daughter was killed by some murdering asshat I would do what I said. I'm not talking about planning anything, am talking that if I came face to face with the person outside the jail, I honestly don't think I could control myself and I'm sure I would try to inflict bodily harm and I'm not sure if I coudl stop myself.

I agree with part of your premise regarding empty interent threats, but it's not the same. I'm not trying to posture or act tough against anyone here. I'm simply stating that I believe I would have so much rage that I wouldn't be in control, thus, not scared of legal retribution. You seem to be the guy with all the tough internet talk for others here.

cincybearcat

decides2dream wrote:

this has been my thought as reading this thread, and thus why i have refrained from comment. no one can truly know how or what they would think or do....but as someone without children, i think even moreso. however, that said...i do think, if it were not your child, but say, your spouse (something i do have)....would that make a difference in your mind? could you 'forgive' your wife's killer more 'easily' for lack of a better term, than your child's killer? as i said, i don't have children thus will never really know what my preliminary thoughts even would be. however, while i doubt i could ever 'forgive' someone for killing my spouse, i think i would never personally seek retribution, nor even support the death penalty but would absolutely be in favor of imprisonment for life. my husband disagrees, as this is one of the few issues we do disagree; as he is a supporter of the death penalty.

Interesting question, and I do think it is different. Just something about your child, more protective I guess. I think it is worse and my reaction would be harder to control.

cincybearcat

I'd also like to add that I think it's not a good thing that I don't think I could control myself. I think we should strive to forgive if people are being honest about their regret. But I don't think I'd ever believe that regret was real. That's a character flaw of mine.

dunkman

soulsinging wrote:

Austicman wrote:

I find it hard to believe that most people would seek their own retribution. I don't hear alot about people taking the law into their own hands when it comes to something like this. Sure there are a few examples of it occuring but it's the exception rather than the rule.

No shit. It's a bunch of dick-swinging bluster from a bunch of wannabe tough guys that talk a big game but wouldn't do shit if they were in this situation. They just feel the need to flaunt their masculinity to compensate for the fact that they know deep down they're too much of a law-abiding pussy to ever risk jailtime and don't want to admit that the amount of control they actually have over their lives is far less than they wish it was. They know deep down horrible things can happen and they can't do a damn thing about it cos there are always bigger and badder people than them out there, and so they talk about retribution casually to give them some sense of control.

I'm holding something in my hand... guess what it is... its really heavy.. i'll describe it as sort of steely... nah... bronzy... nah, wait... it's more like irony... thats it... its irony.

the question was 'could you forgive your son's killer' and i dont have a son... but if someone killed one of my kids then i'd never forgive them... i'd also say that i would want to kill that person in retribution... doubt i actually would, but you never know... if i came face to face with him 17 years after it and I dont know what i'd do. Hardly ball swinging machismo that... its a guttural and visceral instant reaction... which is what the OP was asking about.

It'd be like some internet tough guy, who incidentally won the most handsome pj fan ever award as voted for by the world sarcasm society, calling my wife and kids ugly, ... and then that person not understanding why i would then enjoy hitting him..

and i'm not scared of jail, i'm more scared of losing my children.

decides2dream

cincybearcat wrote:

decides2dream wrote:

this has been my thought as reading this thread, and thus why i have refrained from comment. no one can truly know how or what they would think or do....but as someone without children, i think even moreso. however, that said...i do think, if it were not your child, but say, your spouse (something i do have)....would that make a difference in your mind? could you 'forgive' your wife's killer more 'easily' for lack of a better term, than your child's killer? as i said, i don't have children thus will never really know what my preliminary thoughts even would be. however, while i doubt i could ever 'forgive' someone for killing my spouse, i think i would never personally seek retribution, nor even support the death penalty but would absolutely be in favor of imprisonment for life. my husband disagrees, as this is one of the few issues we do disagree; as he is a supporter of the death penalty.

Interesting question, and I do think it is different. Just something about your child, more protective I guess. I think it is worse and my reaction would be harder to control.

this is what i imagined, just wanted to hear it from a parent and not just think my assumption was right.
i also do wonder if this idea of loss of control or even the possible desire for retribution is the same across genders or if it differs between mothers and fathers. not that i necessarily believe there is a more forgiving gender or anything, just my own curiosity about this sort of thing.


either way, it's all such a horrible scenario, and i hope no one here is ever faced with such.

soulsinging

dunkman wrote:

i would want to kill that person in retribution... doubt i actually would.

Thanks for proving my point over again. That 2 for 2 now on the "I'll say I'd kill them, but I probably wouldn't" talk.

dunkman wrote:

and then that person not understanding why i would then enjoy hitting him..

On the topic of pathetically empty internet posturing...

cincybearcat

soulsinging wrote:

dunkman wrote:

i would want to kill that person in retribution... doubt i actually would.

Thanks for proving my point over again. That 2 for 2 now on the "I'll say I'd kill them, but I probably wouldn't" talk.

dunkman wrote:

and then that person not understanding why i would then enjoy hitting him..

On the topic of pathetically empty internet posturing...

You're the expert on pathetic internet posturing.

Funny thing, I look at my 1st post again...I said 'probably'. I admitted right from the start that I was in doubt. Meanwhilre keep tryng to bully people on the internet tough guy.

soulsinging

cincybearcat wrote:

soulsinging wrote:

dunkman wrote:

i would want to kill that person in retribution... doubt i actually would.

Thanks for proving my point over again. That 2 for 2 now on the "I'll say I'd kill them, but I probably wouldn't" talk.

dunkman wrote:

and then that person not understanding why i would then enjoy hitting him..

On the topic of pathetically empty internet posturing...

You're the expert on pathetic internet posturing.

Funny thing, I look at my 1st post again...I said 'probably'. I admitted right from the start that I was in doubt. Meanwhilre keep tryng to bully people on the internet tough guy.

:roll: Welcome to the playground.

Yours is the one with the... shell on it...

dunkman

soulsinging wrote:

dunkman wrote:

i would want to kill that person in retribution... doubt i actually would.

Thanks for proving my point over again. That 2 for 2 now on the "I'll say I'd kill them, but I probably wouldn't" talk.

dunkman wrote:

and then that person not understanding why i would then enjoy hitting him..

On the topic of pathetically empty internet posturing...

i didnt prove any point Clarence Darrow... my initial emotion would want to be retribution... my actual act? probably nothing, but it would mean i wouldnt want to.

as for the internet posturing... you are the master of self-aggrandising mr lover lover man style talk... you are the one who talks the talk, claims to be the misogynistic persona you think you are on here... but you're not.. you're just a student with one monumentally large fucking chip on his shoulder... bitter against women and people who have fucked you over... take a look in a mirror.

what kind of internet superhero calls 2 small kids 'ugly'.. only you... you are that internet tough guy that you are claiming to loathe... and only so you could act the hero, the tough guy.. thats the irony.... also the hypocrisy of you on this website.... its amusing

p.s. Cher called... she wonders if you want to star in Mask 2...

Byrnzie

dunkman wrote:

soulsinging wrote:

dunkman wrote:

i would want to kill that person in retribution... doubt i actually would.

Thanks for proving my point over again. That 2 for 2 now on the "I'll say I'd kill them, but I probably wouldn't" talk.

dunkman wrote:

and then that person not understanding why i would then enjoy hitting him..

On the topic of pathetically empty internet posturing...

i didnt prove any point Clarence Darrow... my initial emotion would want to be retribution... my actual act? probably nothing, but it would mean i wouldnt want to.

as for the internet posturing... you are the master of self-aggrandising mr lover lover man style talk... you are the one who talks the talk, claims to be the misogynistic persona you think you are on here... but you're not.. you're just a student with one monumentally large fucking chip on his shoulder... bitter against women and people who have fucked you over... take a look in a mirror.

what kind of internet superhero calls 2 small kids 'ugly'.. only you... you are that internet tough guy that you are claiming to loathe... and only so you could act the hero, the tough guy.. thats the irony.... also the hypocrisy of you on this website.... its amusing

p.s. Cher called... she wonders if you want to star in Mask 2...

:P

soulsinging

dunkman wrote:

p.s. Cher called... she wonders if you want to star in Mask 2...

What's Cher got to do with the Mask? Wasn't that a Jim Carrey movie?

Austicman

Well our 60 minutes had a story on these guys last night. It seems that the father hasn't actually "forgiven" the guy but has talked about what he is doing for him and how the guy lives his life now he is out of gaol as "The road to forgiveness". Him and his wife first met him about 10 years ago in gaol in what looked like a group of victims facing off aganist those who have wronged them. It looked as tense as a meeting like that could get. He was very angry and emotional when confronting him for the first time(as you would be). The father then kept coming to visit him ever since.
The father started an organisation for victims of violence called enough is enough. http://www.enoughisenough.org.au. The job he has offered his sons killer is working for this organisation trying to reform offenders young and old alike.

The other thing I found out watching last night was that this guy did not pull the trigger in his sons killing but was driving the getaway car. The guy that actually pull the trigger is also out of gaol but there was very little said about him or his whereabouts now.

The 60 minutes Story : http://sixtyminutes.ninemsn.com.au/arti ... ?id=830549

decides2dream

Austicman wrote:

Well our 60 minutes had a story on these guys last night. It seems that the father hasn't actually "forgiven" the guy but has talked about what he is doing for him and how the guy lives his life now he is out of gaol as "The road to forgiveness". Him and his wife first met him about 10 years ago in gaol in what looked like a group of victims facing off aganist those who have wronged them. It looked as tense as a meeting like that could get. He was very angry and emotional when confronting him for the first time(as you would be). The father then kept coming to visit him ever since.
The father started an organisation for victims of violence called enough is enough. http://www.enoughisenough.org.au. The job he has offered his sons killer is working for this organisation trying to reform offenders young and old alike.

The other thing I found out watching last night was that this guy did not pull the trigger in his sons killing but was driving the getaway car. The guy that actually pull the trigger is also out of gaol but there was very little said about him or his whereabouts now.

The 60 minutes Story : http://sixtyminutes.ninemsn.com.au/arti ... ?id=830549

i haven't looked at the links, just commenting on your post content...

this makes 'sense' to me on some level. i too cannot imagine anyone truly forgiving such an act, but absolutely, trying to work towards forgiveness is definitely a worthy/healthy goal. he, or any other in such a situation, may or may not ever get there....but it's the 'working on it' that more than likely helps to heal him, try to be in a healthy mindset, etc. living in negativity/anger long-term is simply not a healthy way to live...so even for himself, it is wise to try and do what he can to live with his loss and not live in total anger, even if not reaching forgiveness.