Could you forgive your son's killer?
Austicman
Posts: 1,328
http://www.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/s ... 21,00.html
Father greets son's killer with unbelievable forgiveness
By Adam Walters
HE had rehearsed it a thousand times in his head but Ken Marslew's meeting with his son's killer outside the gates of Goulburn jail yesterday strayed from the script.
Karl Kramer was released 15 minutes earlier than Mr Marslew expected.
"You're early," Mr Marslew said.
"Not really, 15 years," Kramer replied.
"Yeah - early," the grieving father said.
What started out as a reference to a Corrective Services Department error on the scheduled release of 10am soon had Ken Marslew wondering whether any sentence would be long enough to punish Kramer.
After his 18-year-old son Michael was shot while working at a Sutherland Shire pizza shop in 1994, Ken Marslew demanded the return of the death penalty.
It was an execution-style killing that catapulted Michael's father into a life-long mission to campaign against violence.
Yesterday, he shook hands with the killer but it was impossible to ignore the tension of an emotionally supercharged encounter.
"I can still see the twitch in your right eye - it's the same sort of rush of feelings that I'm going through," Kramer said.
That twitch, Mr Marslew explained later, was fear. "It was scary, I really had no idea which way it was going to go," he said.
"If he'd been stroppy I would have walked away - but he wasn't."
When they found their rhythm the dialogue between the two bounced as if script writers had crafted every word.
But it was raw, real and at times surreal.
"Are you ready for a new world?" Mr Marslew asked.
"Yeah. Very much," Kramer replied. "I've been thinking, planning, putting into practice what I can while I'm in here and it's just up to me to do the work."
Then there was a pause as Mr Marslew reflected on the last time he met Kramer in in the jail visitor's centre.
"Strange, last time it was plastic between us," he said. "It's far better to look eyeball to eyeball."
When the two met before inside the jail, Kramer agreed to work with Mr Marslew's Enough Is Enough anti-crime group, specialising in counselling services, education programs and supporting victims of crime.
The group's mission statement states: "The organisation, born out of tragedy, has established itself on the highest ideals of human behaviour. The vision of Enough Is Enough is to be the peak-performing grassroots organisation dealing in help, hope and healing."
Kramer's transformation from killer to crusader has become a highly personal project for Ken Marslew and he is confident his unlikely protege will follow through.
"You know you'll get support if you go in the right direction," he told him.
Kramer assured him: "I know where I'm going and hopefully we're going on the same path."
Referring to the absence of Kramer's prison clothes for the first time since 1994, Mr Marslew said: "You look different out of green." Once again the script was abandoned as Kramer admitted no amount of rehabilitation can rewrite his dark history.
"Still green on the inside though," Kramer replied. "I don't believe that for a second," Mr Marslew countered.
Kramer answered: "No I am. I spent most of my adult life in prison. My whole life and existence of who I am comes from the crime I committed and what I did to you and the rest of Michael's loved ones. Prison's a huge part of me and always will be. It's the place where I stripped bare and grew again."
Whether he can actually successfully work with Ken is a scenario that both men concede is uncertain.
But Kramer has sworn to give his anti-crime career his best shot.
"I believe I can work with him but like any relationship it depends," he said.
Kramer said he is ready for the challenge.
"For mental preparation and thought preparation - it's been 18 hours a day," he said. "I just know that in my chest and all through me is a surge of energy but I'm not a bull-at-a-gate type.
"The work starts now. There's a saying that spectacular achievement is achieved through unspectacular preparation and that's what I've had - the time."
Mr Marslew admitted he had mixed emotions. "I'm just hoping that something good will come out of this but only time will tell," he said.
The two spent the day together before it ended with Mr Marslew again clenching one of the hands involved in a murder that brought the two men together forever.
Father greets son's killer with unbelievable forgiveness
By Adam Walters
HE had rehearsed it a thousand times in his head but Ken Marslew's meeting with his son's killer outside the gates of Goulburn jail yesterday strayed from the script.
Karl Kramer was released 15 minutes earlier than Mr Marslew expected.
"You're early," Mr Marslew said.
"Not really, 15 years," Kramer replied.
"Yeah - early," the grieving father said.
What started out as a reference to a Corrective Services Department error on the scheduled release of 10am soon had Ken Marslew wondering whether any sentence would be long enough to punish Kramer.
After his 18-year-old son Michael was shot while working at a Sutherland Shire pizza shop in 1994, Ken Marslew demanded the return of the death penalty.
It was an execution-style killing that catapulted Michael's father into a life-long mission to campaign against violence.
Yesterday, he shook hands with the killer but it was impossible to ignore the tension of an emotionally supercharged encounter.
"I can still see the twitch in your right eye - it's the same sort of rush of feelings that I'm going through," Kramer said.
That twitch, Mr Marslew explained later, was fear. "It was scary, I really had no idea which way it was going to go," he said.
"If he'd been stroppy I would have walked away - but he wasn't."
When they found their rhythm the dialogue between the two bounced as if script writers had crafted every word.
But it was raw, real and at times surreal.
"Are you ready for a new world?" Mr Marslew asked.
"Yeah. Very much," Kramer replied. "I've been thinking, planning, putting into practice what I can while I'm in here and it's just up to me to do the work."
Then there was a pause as Mr Marslew reflected on the last time he met Kramer in in the jail visitor's centre.
"Strange, last time it was plastic between us," he said. "It's far better to look eyeball to eyeball."
When the two met before inside the jail, Kramer agreed to work with Mr Marslew's Enough Is Enough anti-crime group, specialising in counselling services, education programs and supporting victims of crime.
The group's mission statement states: "The organisation, born out of tragedy, has established itself on the highest ideals of human behaviour. The vision of Enough Is Enough is to be the peak-performing grassroots organisation dealing in help, hope and healing."
Kramer's transformation from killer to crusader has become a highly personal project for Ken Marslew and he is confident his unlikely protege will follow through.
"You know you'll get support if you go in the right direction," he told him.
Kramer assured him: "I know where I'm going and hopefully we're going on the same path."
Referring to the absence of Kramer's prison clothes for the first time since 1994, Mr Marslew said: "You look different out of green." Once again the script was abandoned as Kramer admitted no amount of rehabilitation can rewrite his dark history.
"Still green on the inside though," Kramer replied. "I don't believe that for a second," Mr Marslew countered.
Kramer answered: "No I am. I spent most of my adult life in prison. My whole life and existence of who I am comes from the crime I committed and what I did to you and the rest of Michael's loved ones. Prison's a huge part of me and always will be. It's the place where I stripped bare and grew again."
Whether he can actually successfully work with Ken is a scenario that both men concede is uncertain.
But Kramer has sworn to give his anti-crime career his best shot.
"I believe I can work with him but like any relationship it depends," he said.
Kramer said he is ready for the challenge.
"For mental preparation and thought preparation - it's been 18 hours a day," he said. "I just know that in my chest and all through me is a surge of energy but I'm not a bull-at-a-gate type.
"The work starts now. There's a saying that spectacular achievement is achieved through unspectacular preparation and that's what I've had - the time."
Mr Marslew admitted he had mixed emotions. "I'm just hoping that something good will come out of this but only time will tell," he said.
The two spent the day together before it ended with Mr Marslew again clenching one of the hands involved in a murder that brought the two men together forever.
I can't go the library anymore, everyone STINKS!!
Post edited by Unknown User on
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Comments
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No.
And if they didn't either a) sentence the killer to death or b) put the killer away for life in prison I woudl probably end up attempting to take matters into my own hands. Is it the right thing to do? Probably not, but I think I'd do it.hippiemom = goodness0 -
After 15 years, I honestly don't know...
But I my answer to that question now is "no"... I couldn't imagine losing a child, going your whole life thinking how old he/she would be now or thinking what they'd be doing at that stage in their life... And to know that someone is entirely responsible for all of that heartache, would make it impossible for me to forgive them.My whole life
was like a picture
of a sunny day
“We can complain because rose bushes have thorns, or rejoice because thorn bushes have roses.”
― Abraham Lincoln0 -
I think so.
The killer was a child once too.0 -
It would be incredibly difficult, but I would try my hardest to forgive someone who killed my child.0
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i dont think i could, and i think they killer in this scenario is just talking out his ass, hes got this sad man coming to him in jail, i think he is just tellin him what he wants to hear.0
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Not a chance if it was intentional.0
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My first instinct to someone who did this to my child would be to go medieval on them, but maybe with enough time and remorse separating the act I could forgive. But I could never forget.0
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Well the lastest is that he's giving this guy a job.
I find it hard to believe that most people would seek their own retribution. I don't hear alot about people taking the law into their own hands when it comes to something like this. Sure there are a few examples of it occuring but it's the exception rather than the rule. Likewise I don't think ever heard about a guy doing this. To meet the guy at the prison gates to talk and give the guy a job. I think he believe's it will help with the healing process for him and his family more than any other reason but also that he is personally doing his bit to take one killer off the street so to speak.
What better way to stop something like this happening to another family than by making sure the guy who murdered you son doesn't kill again once he's released from prison.
Personally I don't know what I would do. I can't imagine the intense emotions that would be involved but I wish this guy all the best. He obviously trying to make positive impact in what must be the most trying and testing time in his life.I can't go the library anymore, everyone STINKS!!0 -
i wouldn't seek retribution, but i definitely wouldn't be as gracious as this man. 15 years is a long time to grieve and try and come to some sort of peace with your loss, but in the back of my head would always be the thoughts that, because of him, my son was robbed a chance of a beautiful life.Austicman wrote:Well the lastest is that he's giving this guy a job.
I find it hard to believe that most people would seek their own retribution. I don't hear alot about people taking the law into their own hands when it comes to something like this. Sure there are a few examples of it occuring but it's the exception rather than the rule. Likewise I don't think ever heard about a guy doing this. To meet the guy at the prison gates to talk and give the guy a job. I think he believe's it will help with the healing process for him and his family more than any other reason but also that he is personally doing his bit to take one killer off the street so to speak.
What better way to stop something like this happening to another family than by making sure the guy who murdered you son doesn't kill again once he's released from prison.
Personally I don't know what I would do. I can't imagine the intense emotions that would be involved but I wish this guy all the best. He obviously trying to make positive impact in what must be the most trying and testing time in his life.
and i disagree that by giving him a job he is making sure he doesn't murder again. there are no guarantees.0 -
TriumphantAngel wrote:
i wouldn't seek retribution, but i definitely wouldn't be as gracious as this man. 15 years is a long time to grieve and try and come to some sort of peace with your loss, but in the back of my head would always be the thoughts that, because of him, my son was robbed a chance of a beautiful life.Austicman wrote:Well the lastest is that he's giving this guy a job.
I find it hard to believe that most people would seek their own retribution. I don't hear alot about people taking the law into their own hands when it comes to something like this. Sure there are a few examples of it occuring but it's the exception rather than the rule. Likewise I don't think ever heard about a guy doing this. To meet the guy at the prison gates to talk and give the guy a job. I think he believe's it will help with the healing process for him and his family more than any other reason but also that he is personally doing his bit to take one killer off the street so to speak.
What better way to stop something like this happening to another family than by making sure the guy who murdered you son doesn't kill again once he's released from prison.
Personally I don't know what I would do. I can't imagine the intense emotions that would be involved but I wish this guy all the best. He obviously trying to make positive impact in what must be the most trying and testing time in his life.
and i disagree that by giving him a job he is making sure he doesn't murder again. there are no guarantees.
No arguments there. Just saying that in his mind he's probably thinking that if he gets him to fly right it'll be a big step in stopping him from going back to his old ways.I can't go the library anymore, everyone STINKS!!0 -
I hoping I would be strong enough to forgive... But, i cannot honestly say what I would or would not do.
And Forgiveness is not the same as forgetting. And it is not the same as Justice. I'm hoping i can forgive... but, i won't forget... and I would still want there to be justice. Everyone needs to be held responsible and accountable to pay for the decisions they make.Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!0 -
This thread is truly fascinating. The ones who swear they'd kill the guy in cold blood... all the conservative, religious folks who claim to follow Jesus, a man who famously preached forgiveness and turning the other cheek. All the people saying they would forgive... godless liberals.0
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Austicman wrote:I find it hard to believe that most people would seek their own retribution. I don't hear alot about people taking the law into their own hands when it comes to something like this. Sure there are a few examples of it occuring but it's the exception rather than the rule.
No shit. It's a bunch of dick-swinging bluster from a bunch of wannabe tough guys that talk a big game but wouldn't do shit if they were in this situation. They just feel the need to flaunt their masculinity to compensate for the fact that they know deep down they're too much of a law-abiding pussy to ever risk jailtime and don't want to admit that the amount of control they actually have over their lives is far less than they wish it was. They know deep down horrible things can happen and they can't do a damn thing about it cos there are always bigger and badder people than them out there, and so they talk about retribution casually to give them some sense of control.0 -
why don't you tell us how you really feel, i think you might be holding back a little theresoulsinging wrote:Austicman wrote:I find it hard to believe that most people would seek their own retribution. I don't hear alot about people taking the law into their own hands when it comes to something like this. Sure there are a few examples of it occuring but it's the exception rather than the rule.
No shit. It's a bunch of dick-swinging bluster from a bunch of wannabe tough guys that talk a big game but wouldn't do shit if they were in this situation. They just feel the need to flaunt their masculinity to compensate for the fact that they know deep down they're too much of a law-abiding pussy to ever risk jailtime and don't want to admit that the amount of control they actually have over their lives is far less than they wish it was. They know deep down horrible things can happen and they can't do a damn thing about it cos there are always bigger and badder people than them out there, and so they talk about retribution casually to give them some sense of control.
Post edited by TriumphantAngel on0 -
soulsinging wrote:This thread is truly fascinating. The ones who swear they'd kill the guy in cold blood... all the conservative, religious folks who claim to follow Jesus, a man who famously preached forgiveness and turning the other cheek. All the people saying they would forgive... godless liberals.
I thought I was the one that painted everything in black and white?0 -
Austicman wrote:What better way to stop something like this happening to another family than by making sure the guy who murdered you son doesn't kill again once he's released from prison.
That's exactly what I said I'd do...and my way would be way more effective as it'd be 100% sure.hippiemom = goodness0 -
soulsinging wrote:This thread is truly fascinating. The ones who swear they'd kill the guy in cold blood... all the conservative, religious folks who claim to follow Jesus, a man who famously preached forgiveness and turning the other cheek. All the people saying they would forgive... godless liberals.
Huh? I don't think you have that right. But once again, paint your pretty pictures of that dream world.
And I think it's much easier to say you'd forgive then it is to really think what you would do. I'd be willing to bet that the majority of those that say they would forgive wouldn't be able to if it happened to them.hippiemom = goodness0 -
soulsinging wrote:Austicman wrote:I find it hard to believe that most people would seek their own retribution. I don't hear alot about people taking the law into their own hands when it comes to something like this. Sure there are a few examples of it occuring but it's the exception rather than the rule.
No shit. It's a bunch of dick-swinging bluster from a bunch of wannabe tough guys that talk a big game but wouldn't do shit if they were in this situation. They just feel the need to flaunt their masculinity to compensate for the fact that they know deep down they're too much of a law-abiding pussy to ever risk jailtime and don't want to admit that the amount of control they actually have over their lives is far less than they wish it was. They know deep down horrible things can happen and they can't do a damn thing about it cos there are always bigger and badder people than them out there, and so they talk about retribution casually to give them some sense of control.
Talk about a dick-swinging tough guy talk...you are the master.hippiemom = goodness0 -
double post/quotePost edited by soulsinging on0
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cincybearcat wrote:soulsinging wrote:Austicman wrote:I find it hard to believe that most people would seek their own retribution. I don't hear alot about people taking the law into their own hands when it comes to something like this. Sure there are a few examples of it occuring but it's the exception rather than the rule.
No shit. It's a bunch of dick-swinging bluster from a bunch of wannabe tough guys that talk a big game but wouldn't do shit if they were in this situation. They just feel the need to flaunt their masculinity to compensate for the fact that they know deep down they're too much of a law-abiding pussy to ever risk jailtime and don't want to admit that the amount of control they actually have over their lives is far less than they wish it was. They know deep down horrible things can happen and they can't do a damn thing about it cos there are always bigger and badder people than them out there, and so they talk about retribution casually to give them some sense of control.
Talk about a dick-swinging tough guy talk...you are the master.
Hardly. I'd not forgive the guy cos I don't get over shit very easy and carry grudges like only the Irish can. And I know I wouldn't touch him because I'm scared shitless of going to prison. I'd probably move. How's that for tough guy talk?Post edited by soulsinging on0
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