Could you forgive your son's killer?
Austicman
Posts: 1,327
http://www.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/s ... 21,00.html
Father greets son's killer with unbelievable forgiveness
By Adam Walters
HE had rehearsed it a thousand times in his head but Ken Marslew's meeting with his son's killer outside the gates of Goulburn jail yesterday strayed from the script.
Karl Kramer was released 15 minutes earlier than Mr Marslew expected.
"You're early," Mr Marslew said.
"Not really, 15 years," Kramer replied.
"Yeah - early," the grieving father said.
What started out as a reference to a Corrective Services Department error on the scheduled release of 10am soon had Ken Marslew wondering whether any sentence would be long enough to punish Kramer.
After his 18-year-old son Michael was shot while working at a Sutherland Shire pizza shop in 1994, Ken Marslew demanded the return of the death penalty.
It was an execution-style killing that catapulted Michael's father into a life-long mission to campaign against violence.
Yesterday, he shook hands with the killer but it was impossible to ignore the tension of an emotionally supercharged encounter.
"I can still see the twitch in your right eye - it's the same sort of rush of feelings that I'm going through," Kramer said.
That twitch, Mr Marslew explained later, was fear. "It was scary, I really had no idea which way it was going to go," he said.
"If he'd been stroppy I would have walked away - but he wasn't."
When they found their rhythm the dialogue between the two bounced as if script writers had crafted every word.
But it was raw, real and at times surreal.
"Are you ready for a new world?" Mr Marslew asked.
"Yeah. Very much," Kramer replied. "I've been thinking, planning, putting into practice what I can while I'm in here and it's just up to me to do the work."
Then there was a pause as Mr Marslew reflected on the last time he met Kramer in in the jail visitor's centre.
"Strange, last time it was plastic between us," he said. "It's far better to look eyeball to eyeball."
When the two met before inside the jail, Kramer agreed to work with Mr Marslew's Enough Is Enough anti-crime group, specialising in counselling services, education programs and supporting victims of crime.
The group's mission statement states: "The organisation, born out of tragedy, has established itself on the highest ideals of human behaviour. The vision of Enough Is Enough is to be the peak-performing grassroots organisation dealing in help, hope and healing."
Kramer's transformation from killer to crusader has become a highly personal project for Ken Marslew and he is confident his unlikely protege will follow through.
"You know you'll get support if you go in the right direction," he told him.
Kramer assured him: "I know where I'm going and hopefully we're going on the same path."
Referring to the absence of Kramer's prison clothes for the first time since 1994, Mr Marslew said: "You look different out of green." Once again the script was abandoned as Kramer admitted no amount of rehabilitation can rewrite his dark history.
"Still green on the inside though," Kramer replied. "I don't believe that for a second," Mr Marslew countered.
Kramer answered: "No I am. I spent most of my adult life in prison. My whole life and existence of who I am comes from the crime I committed and what I did to you and the rest of Michael's loved ones. Prison's a huge part of me and always will be. It's the place where I stripped bare and grew again."
Whether he can actually successfully work with Ken is a scenario that both men concede is uncertain.
But Kramer has sworn to give his anti-crime career his best shot.
"I believe I can work with him but like any relationship it depends," he said.
Kramer said he is ready for the challenge.
"For mental preparation and thought preparation - it's been 18 hours a day," he said. "I just know that in my chest and all through me is a surge of energy but I'm not a bull-at-a-gate type.
"The work starts now. There's a saying that spectacular achievement is achieved through unspectacular preparation and that's what I've had - the time."
Mr Marslew admitted he had mixed emotions. "I'm just hoping that something good will come out of this but only time will tell," he said.
The two spent the day together before it ended with Mr Marslew again clenching one of the hands involved in a murder that brought the two men together forever.
Father greets son's killer with unbelievable forgiveness
By Adam Walters
HE had rehearsed it a thousand times in his head but Ken Marslew's meeting with his son's killer outside the gates of Goulburn jail yesterday strayed from the script.
Karl Kramer was released 15 minutes earlier than Mr Marslew expected.
"You're early," Mr Marslew said.
"Not really, 15 years," Kramer replied.
"Yeah - early," the grieving father said.
What started out as a reference to a Corrective Services Department error on the scheduled release of 10am soon had Ken Marslew wondering whether any sentence would be long enough to punish Kramer.
After his 18-year-old son Michael was shot while working at a Sutherland Shire pizza shop in 1994, Ken Marslew demanded the return of the death penalty.
It was an execution-style killing that catapulted Michael's father into a life-long mission to campaign against violence.
Yesterday, he shook hands with the killer but it was impossible to ignore the tension of an emotionally supercharged encounter.
"I can still see the twitch in your right eye - it's the same sort of rush of feelings that I'm going through," Kramer said.
That twitch, Mr Marslew explained later, was fear. "It was scary, I really had no idea which way it was going to go," he said.
"If he'd been stroppy I would have walked away - but he wasn't."
When they found their rhythm the dialogue between the two bounced as if script writers had crafted every word.
But it was raw, real and at times surreal.
"Are you ready for a new world?" Mr Marslew asked.
"Yeah. Very much," Kramer replied. "I've been thinking, planning, putting into practice what I can while I'm in here and it's just up to me to do the work."
Then there was a pause as Mr Marslew reflected on the last time he met Kramer in in the jail visitor's centre.
"Strange, last time it was plastic between us," he said. "It's far better to look eyeball to eyeball."
When the two met before inside the jail, Kramer agreed to work with Mr Marslew's Enough Is Enough anti-crime group, specialising in counselling services, education programs and supporting victims of crime.
The group's mission statement states: "The organisation, born out of tragedy, has established itself on the highest ideals of human behaviour. The vision of Enough Is Enough is to be the peak-performing grassroots organisation dealing in help, hope and healing."
Kramer's transformation from killer to crusader has become a highly personal project for Ken Marslew and he is confident his unlikely protege will follow through.
"You know you'll get support if you go in the right direction," he told him.
Kramer assured him: "I know where I'm going and hopefully we're going on the same path."
Referring to the absence of Kramer's prison clothes for the first time since 1994, Mr Marslew said: "You look different out of green." Once again the script was abandoned as Kramer admitted no amount of rehabilitation can rewrite his dark history.
"Still green on the inside though," Kramer replied. "I don't believe that for a second," Mr Marslew countered.
Kramer answered: "No I am. I spent most of my adult life in prison. My whole life and existence of who I am comes from the crime I committed and what I did to you and the rest of Michael's loved ones. Prison's a huge part of me and always will be. It's the place where I stripped bare and grew again."
Whether he can actually successfully work with Ken is a scenario that both men concede is uncertain.
But Kramer has sworn to give his anti-crime career his best shot.
"I believe I can work with him but like any relationship it depends," he said.
Kramer said he is ready for the challenge.
"For mental preparation and thought preparation - it's been 18 hours a day," he said. "I just know that in my chest and all through me is a surge of energy but I'm not a bull-at-a-gate type.
"The work starts now. There's a saying that spectacular achievement is achieved through unspectacular preparation and that's what I've had - the time."
Mr Marslew admitted he had mixed emotions. "I'm just hoping that something good will come out of this but only time will tell," he said.
The two spent the day together before it ended with Mr Marslew again clenching one of the hands involved in a murder that brought the two men together forever.
I can't go the library anymore, everyone STINKS!!
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Comments
And if they didn't either a) sentence the killer to death or b) put the killer away for life in prison I woudl probably end up attempting to take matters into my own hands. Is it the right thing to do? Probably not, but I think I'd do it.
But I my answer to that question now is "no"... I couldn't imagine losing a child, going your whole life thinking how old he/she would be now or thinking what they'd be doing at that stage in their life... And to know that someone is entirely responsible for all of that heartache, would make it impossible for me to forgive them.
was like a picture
of a sunny day
“We can complain because rose bushes have thorns, or rejoice because thorn bushes have roses.”
― Abraham Lincoln
The killer was a child once too.
I find it hard to believe that most people would seek their own retribution. I don't hear alot about people taking the law into their own hands when it comes to something like this. Sure there are a few examples of it occuring but it's the exception rather than the rule. Likewise I don't think ever heard about a guy doing this. To meet the guy at the prison gates to talk and give the guy a job. I think he believe's it will help with the healing process for him and his family more than any other reason but also that he is personally doing his bit to take one killer off the street so to speak.
What better way to stop something like this happening to another family than by making sure the guy who murdered you son doesn't kill again once he's released from prison.
Personally I don't know what I would do. I can't imagine the intense emotions that would be involved but I wish this guy all the best. He obviously trying to make positive impact in what must be the most trying and testing time in his life.
and i disagree that by giving him a job he is making sure he doesn't murder again. there are no guarantees.
No arguments there. Just saying that in his mind he's probably thinking that if he gets him to fly right it'll be a big step in stopping him from going back to his old ways.
And Forgiveness is not the same as forgetting. And it is not the same as Justice. I'm hoping i can forgive... but, i won't forget... and I would still want there to be justice. Everyone needs to be held responsible and accountable to pay for the decisions they make.
Hail, Hail!!!
No shit. It's a bunch of dick-swinging bluster from a bunch of wannabe tough guys that talk a big game but wouldn't do shit if they were in this situation. They just feel the need to flaunt their masculinity to compensate for the fact that they know deep down they're too much of a law-abiding pussy to ever risk jailtime and don't want to admit that the amount of control they actually have over their lives is far less than they wish it was. They know deep down horrible things can happen and they can't do a damn thing about it cos there are always bigger and badder people than them out there, and so they talk about retribution casually to give them some sense of control.
I thought I was the one that painted everything in black and white?
That's exactly what I said I'd do...and my way would be way more effective as it'd be 100% sure.
Huh? I don't think you have that right. But once again, paint your pretty pictures of that dream world.
And I think it's much easier to say you'd forgive then it is to really think what you would do. I'd be willing to bet that the majority of those that say they would forgive wouldn't be able to if it happened to them.
Talk about a dick-swinging tough guy talk...you are the master.
Hardly. I'd not forgive the guy cos I don't get over shit very easy and carry grudges like only the Irish can. And I know I wouldn't touch him because I'm scared shitless of going to prison. I'd probably move. How's that for tough guy talk?
Pray tell, what do I have wrong about that then? By my count, all the folks saying violent retribution are self-professed Christians. All the ones advocating forgiveness are self-avowed atheists, agnostics, or some hippy shit like wiccans. Whether or not they'd live up to their talk is another thing, but I think I've already covered my thoughts on that count.
In any event, of course it's easy to talk about forgiveness... almost as easy as it it to talk about how you'd go all Chuck Norris and kill the guy. :roll:
I'm not a self-professed Christian.
I just think your post was shitty. Sure it'd be hard to follow through with either forgiveness or retribution. But the feeling I got inside when trying to think what I would do if it was my daughter told me I would probably be unabel to control myself. Who the hell really knows unless you live it anyhow? I know for sure I would be FAR closer to taking matters into my own hands than I would be to forgive someone that killed my little girl. I also think that unless you currently have a child, you have even less of an understanding what you would be likely to do.
I was under the impression you were a Christian. My bad then.
You make the point I tried to get at in my post... who knows what they'd do? At least a few of the forgiveness people said they couldn't imagine what it'd be like but they'd try to forgive or at least hope they would. The retribution folks just started their 'string im up' nonsense. Hell, you went one further with your pathetically cliched empty internet tough talk threat:
"That's exactly what I said I'd do...and my way would be way more effective as it'd be 100% sure."
If that isn't dick-swinging bluster I don't know what is. Now you admit you don't know what you'd actually do. So you were just posturing like a tough guy. You only think my post is shitty because it called you out and made you look kinda foolish for all that macho bluster.
this has been my thought as reading this thread, and thus why i have refrained from comment. no one can truly know how or what they would think or do....but as someone without children, i think even moreso. however, that said...i do think, if it were not your child, but say, your spouse (something i do have)....would that make a difference in your mind? could you 'forgive' your wife's killer more 'easily' for lack of a better term, than your child's killer? as i said, i don't have children thus will never really know what my preliminary thoughts even would be. however, while i doubt i could ever 'forgive' someone for killing my spouse, i think i would never personally seek retribution, nor even support the death penalty but would absolutely be in favor of imprisonment for life. my husband disagrees, as this is one of the few issues we do disagree; as he is a supporter of the death penalty.
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
Someone asked a question. I answered it based on how I felt about the situation.
You seriously need some help, you've become extremely bitter and confrontational for no reason.
Macho bluster? What ever. I believe as I feel it now that if my daughter was killed by some murdering asshat I would do what I said. I'm not talking about planning anything, am talking that if I came face to face with the person outside the jail, I honestly don't think I could control myself and I'm sure I would try to inflict bodily harm and I'm not sure if I coudl stop myself.
I agree with part of your premise regarding empty interent threats, but it's not the same. I'm not trying to posture or act tough against anyone here. I'm simply stating that I believe I would have so much rage that I wouldn't be in control, thus, not scared of legal retribution. You seem to be the guy with all the tough internet talk for others here.
Interesting question, and I do think it is different. Just something about your child, more protective I guess. I think it is worse and my reaction would be harder to control.
I'm holding something in my hand... guess what it is... its really heavy.. i'll describe it as sort of steely... nah... bronzy... nah, wait... it's more like irony... thats it... its irony.
the question was 'could you forgive your son's killer' and i dont have a son... but if someone killed one of my kids then i'd never forgive them... i'd also say that i would want to kill that person in retribution... doubt i actually would, but you never know... if i came face to face with him 17 years after it and I dont know what i'd do. Hardly ball swinging machismo that... its a guttural and visceral instant reaction... which is what the OP was asking about.
It'd be like some internet tough guy, who incidentally won the most handsome pj fan ever award as voted for by the world sarcasm society, calling my wife and kids ugly, ... and then that person not understanding why i would then enjoy hitting him..
and i'm not scared of jail, i'm more scared of losing my children.
this is what i imagined, just wanted to hear it from a parent and not just think my assumption was right.
i also do wonder if this idea of loss of control or even the possible desire for retribution is the same across genders or if it differs between mothers and fathers. not that i necessarily believe there is a more forgiving gender or anything, just my own curiosity about this sort of thing.
either way, it's all such a horrible scenario, and i hope no one here is ever faced with such.
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
Thanks for proving my point over again. That 2 for 2 now on the "I'll say I'd kill them, but I probably wouldn't" talk.
On the topic of pathetically empty internet posturing...