25% of the Worlds Prison Population is in the USA

danmac

"25% of the Worlds Prison Population is in the USA."

Amazing statistic, if true. Ive read it from a couple of sources, so if anyone can counter it as false, or erroneous, then i'm all ears!

If it is true, then does it show that America is the poorest of the so called "rich" countries. As if we needed another indicator of that.

Crime is generally directly related to poverty, (and before those who say, "well i'm poor, and i don't steal, or rob, or cheat," well good luck to you. Humans are not all the same) to lack of education, decent employment etc.

As a former habitee of that country, I can say I was shocked by the levels of poverty I found in what some idiots blindly call the greatest democracy on earth.

Literacy and numeracy levels are the lowest of any civilised nation. Racism is inherent throughout the nation (also shown by the prison statistics). More people live below the poverty line than in any other 'civilised' or 'free' nation.

The US system of 'freedom' and of 'democracy' does nothing but treat the majority of its (unpriveleged, white, black, hispanic, whatever) citizens like the proverbial sack of shit. The aftermath of Katrina showed this to the world.

If you're white, you may have chance, with the help of cheap credit and of white people getting better jobs and a better level of education, of keeping your head above water.

Really, I want good, solid reasons why some of you think the USA is "The Greatest Nation in the World." (TM)

Lists of inventions simply will not cut it.

Lets start with this; since 1798, the USA has barely gone a decade without being engaged, (starting) in conflict on a foriegn field.

Are these the actions of a great and just nation based on Liberty, justice or Equality?

1970RR

I think you will find that the United States incarceration rate is primarily associated with the prohibition of drugs.

danmac

1970RR wrote:

I think you will find that the United States incarceration rate is primarily associated with the prohibition of drugs.

All other nations have similar if not stricter rules on drugs.

Maybe Americans feel the need to get high and forget their misery stronger than do people of other more civilised nations?

1970RR

danmac wrote:

All other nations have similar if not stricter rules on drugs.

Maybe Americans feel the need to get high and forget their misery stronger than do people of other more civilised nations?

No, we have a paternalistic society that frowns on allowing people to make their own choices in life.

know1

I'm guessing that other factors involved include a better/more extensive prison system and more effective law enforcement. After all, if you don't have room to keep the prisoners, you can't keep them.

In fact, I think the U.S. prison system is overcrowded and they often let a lot of people go who should be in jail longer.

I'm curious, assuming that the prisoners are guilty of breaking laws - which laws should we remove from the books that would keep them out of prison? I know the easy answer is going to be drugs, but you already admitted that the drug laws in other countries are more strict.

danmac

1970RR wrote:

No, we have a paternalistic society that frowns on allowing people to make their own choices in life.

Same is true of all other Western societies. Why is the incarceration rate of the USA higher than China, the daddy of paternalistic societies that allows its citizens only to breathe shit and sleep?

If anything, I know the USA is more lenient with regards to breaking the law with alcohol. You drink drive here, you're lucky not to get put in prison. In America, it seemed like a slap on the wrists, a DWI, and on your way, sir, don't forget your Bud Lite.

I feel there is something much deeper, much more rotten at the core of the American Myth.

even flow?

know1 wrote:

I'm guessing that other factors involved include a better/more extensive prison system and more effective law enforcement. After all, if you don't have room to keep the prisoners, you can't keep them.

In fact, I think the U.S. prison system is overcrowded and they often let a lot of people go who should be in jail longer.

I'm curious, assuming that the prisoners are guilty of breaking laws - which laws should we remove from the books that would keep them out of prison? I know the easy answer is going to be drugs, but you already admitted that the drug laws in other countries are more strict.

I can't believe that people would turn to crime in the states especially when those people are so rich compared to the other 94% of the people of the world. Eh, know1???????

danmac

know1 wrote:

I'm guessing that other factors involved include a better/more extensive prison system and more effective law enforcement. After all, if you don't have room to keep the prisoners, you can't keep them.

In fact, I think the U.S. prison system is overcrowded and they often let a lot of people go who should be in jail longer.

I'm curious, assuming that the prisoners are guilty of breaking laws - which laws should we remove from the books that would keep them out of prison? I know the easy answer is going to be drugs, but you already admitted that the drug laws in other countries are more strict.

Interesting point no-one, but don't you feel that this approach is the wrong end of the right stick? Surely its better to be pro-active than reactive, and address the deeper social problems that cause people to commit crime, rather than simply changing the rules to accomodate the dissafected?

Drug crime is robbery, mugging, thievery etcetera. Surely you can't mean to decriminalise these activities? Decriminalising drugs will not remove the need for people to make the money to pay for those drugs. WIthout jobs and healthy social conditions, they will still steal and rob regardless of whether crack costs 20 bucks a rock or 5.

1970RR

danmac wrote:

Same is true of all other Western societies. Why is the incarceration rate of the USA higher than China, the daddy of paternalistic societies that allows its citizens only to breathe shit and sleep?

If anything, I know the USA is more lenient with regards to breaking the law with alcohol. You drink drive here, you're lucky not to get put in prison. In America, it seemed like a slap on the wrists, a DWI, and on your way, sir, don't forget your Bud Lite.

I feel there is something much deeper, much more rotten at the core of the American Myth.

If you call probation and license suspension and fines/costs for first offenders a slap on the wrist , then yes, I guess we are more lenient. And I have no problem with that.

polaris

there is money to be made in prisons ... look at the companies that run these prisons and their political contributions ... the american model of government spending is to spend on industries that support the current administration ...

1970RR

danmac wrote:

Interesting point no-one, but don't you feel that this approach is the wrong end of the right stick? Surely its better to be pro-active than reactive, and address the deeper social problems that cause people to commit crime, rather than simply changing the rules to accomodate the dissafected?

Drug crime is robbery, mugging, thievery etcetera. Surely you can't mean to decriminalise these activities? Decriminalising drugs will not remove the need for people to make the money to pay for those drugs. WIthout jobs and healthy social conditions, they will still steal and rob regardless of whether crack costs 20 bucks a rock or 5.

Robbery & muggings will always be crimes and prosecuted accordingly. Legalizing drugs would not solve the countrys problems, but it would lessen the negative consequences that are brought on by prohibition.
And clearly, the number of robberies & muggings needed to buy $5 of crack would be less than those needed to by $20.

know1

danmac wrote:

Interesting point no-one, but don't you feel that this approach is the wrong end of the right stick? Surely its better to be pro-active than reactive, and address the deeper social problems that cause people to commit crime, rather than simply changing the rules to accomodate the dissafected?

Drug crime is robbery, mugging, thievery etcetera. Surely you can't mean to decriminalise these activities? Decriminalising drugs will not remove the need for people to make the money to pay for those drugs. WIthout jobs and healthy social conditions, they will still steal and rob regardless of whether crack costs 20 bucks a rock or 5.

What approach do you think I'm taking? I'm not saying to decriminalize anything. I'm offering an explanation for why the U.S. prison population is so high - ie. more prisons and better law enforcement.

You can't tell me that there are worse job situations and worse social conditions in the U.S. than the rest of the world - especially in places like third world countries, India, China, etc.

danmac

know1 wrote:

What approach do you think I'm taking? I'm not saying to decriminalize anything. I'm offering an explanation for why the U.S. prison population is so high - ie. more prisons and better law enforcement.

You can't tell me that there are worse job situations and worse social conditions in the U.S. than the rest of the world - especially in places like third world countries, India, China, etc.

You said, "which laws should we remove from the books that would keep them out of prison?"

I think its the wrong approach, but slightly off topic. Good point about India and China, which leads me to think that its not maybe the social conditions, its the people, the way of America, of grab grag grab, greed, profit, better yourself, a race to the top, for the most, and fuck everybody else cos its every man for himself. Does this crime come from the capitalist drive, the corporate brain washing into making these people want something more than they should, products, money, cars etc?

Or is it social?

Or is it the American mentality? To take something at the point of a gun.

"Heck, if our leaders are doing it, why can't we?"

I think it has alot do with respect. Or the lack of it. By keeping people blind with consumerism, and fighting each other, the government (or the people, the masters of war behind the government) can go about their daily business of greed and acquisition.

melodious

1970RR wrote:

I think you will find that the United States incarceration rate is primarily associated with the prohibition of drugs.

WELCOME TO THE LARGEST OPEN AIRED PRISON IN THE WORLD.....oh land o free

soulsinging

1970RR wrote:

If you call probation and license suspension and fines/costs for first offenders a slap on the wrist , then yes, I guess we are more lenient. And I have no problem with that.

ive had 3 dui's. ive served a grand total of 6 days in jail and 1 year and 9 months of license suspension.

EvilToasterElf

know1 wrote:

I'm guessing that other factors involved include a better/more extensive prison system and more effective law enforcement. After all, if you don't have room to keep the prisoners, you can't keep them.

In fact, I think the U.S. prison system is overcrowded and they often let a lot of people go who should be in jail longer.

I'm curious, assuming that the prisoners are guilty of breaking laws - which laws should we remove from the books that would keep them out of prison? I know the easy answer is going to be drugs, but you already admitted that the drug laws in other countries are more strict.

10 Years for possession of marijuana - prison population declines by a third in the course of a year.

melodious

EvilToasterElf wrote:

10 Years for possession of marijuana - prison population declines by a third in the course of a year.

maybe not drop, becasue don't you know they're building detention camps for all the other felons....you know the ones with the brown skin...no..prison pop will never go down, just like gas prices wont. it's a big industry holding the prison guards union as one of the (if not #1) strongest in u.s.

herding people is the name of the game..

know1

danmac wrote:

You said, "which laws should we remove from the books that would keep them out of prison?"

I think its the wrong approach, but slightly off topic. Good point about India and China, which leads me to think that its not maybe the social conditions, its the people, the way of America, of grab grag grab, greed, profit, better yourself, a race to the top, for the most, and fuck everybody else cos its every man for himself. Does this crime come from the capitalist drive, the corporate brain washing into making these people want something more than they should, products, money, cars etc?

Or is it social?

Or is it the American mentality? To take something at the point of a gun.

"Heck, if our leaders are doing it, why can't we?"

I think it has alot do with respect. Or the lack of it. By keeping people blind with consumerism, and fighting each other, the government (or the people, the masters of war behind the government) can go about their daily business of greed and acquisition.

You don't "keep people blind" with anything. If people are blind, it's not someone else's fault.

know1

EvilToasterElf wrote:

10 Years for possession of marijuana - prison population declines by a third in the course of a year.

Again, I'm not justifying any particular laws. The thread topic is about the prison population of the U.S. being out of proportion with the rest of the world. My explanation is that we have a larger capacity and better law enforcement.

Do you not agree that if you have more prisons, you can hold more people?

For example if you have two countries with identical population and identical crime statistics, but one of them has 10 prisons and can hold 100,000 prisoners and the other only has one prison and can hold 10,000 prisoners, which one will have more prisoners?

floyd1975

danmac wrote:

You said, "which laws should we remove from the books that would keep them out of prison?"

I think its the wrong approach, but slightly off topic. Good point about India and China, which leads me to think that its not maybe the social conditions, its the people, the way of America, of grab grag grab, greed, profit, better yourself, a race to the top, for the most, and fuck everybody else cos its every man for himself. Does this crime come from the capitalist drive, the corporate brain washing into making these people want something more than they should, products, money, cars etc?

Or is it social?

Or is it the American mentality? To take something at the point of a gun.

"Heck, if our leaders are doing it, why can't we?"

I think it has alot do with respect. Or the lack of it. By keeping people blind with consumerism, and fighting each other, the government (or the people, the masters of war behind the government) can go about their daily business of greed and acquisition.

I think it has more to do with the fact that there is a mentality that has taken over the country that starts when people are children and continues throughout life. Our society (I see a lot of this on this board) is no longer willing to place responsibility for a person's crimes with the criminal. A post like this seems to me like part of the problem. When a crime is committed, there is a rush of academics looking to remove the blame from the criminal. This has created a mentality in people that their actions are not their own and the consequences are unfair.

InquisitiveOne

Imagine if there were no electricity.... all those friends of ours would come flooding back... yikes.

moeaholic

soulsinging wrote:

ive had 3 dui's. ive served a grand total of 6 days in jail and 1 year and 9 months of license suspension.

with your suspension, were you allowed to go back and forth to work and the store with your vehicle? i know people that had a lapse in insurance and their license was suspended for almost a year and weren't allowed to drive anywhere, including work, the store, even to the hospital in an emergency case. to me, that's fucked up.

**edit**
my opinion, a lot of the problems start at home. if you're not raised right, you're not going to make the right decisions. sure, there are some cases that contradict what i just wrote, but those are few and far between.

EvilToasterElf

know1 wrote:

Again, I'm not justifying any particular laws. The thread topic is about the prison population of the U.S. being out of proportion with the rest of the world. My explanation is that we have a larger capacity and better law enforcement.

Do you not agree that if you have more prisons, you can hold more people?

For example if you have two countries with identical population and identical crime statistics, but one of them has 10 prisons and can hold 100,000 prisoners and the other only has one prison and can hold 10,000 prisoners, which one will have more prisoners?

What I'm saying is the draconian and insanely overkill rockefellar drug laws is what allows the prison population to swell so much. We have all of those prisons because we can lock up minor drug offenders for a long time, when rapists, embezzlers, and serious felons are revolving in and out the door.

jammin1586

EvilToasterElf wrote:

What I'm saying is the draconian and insanely overkill rockefellar drug laws is what allows the prison population to swell so much. We have all of those prisons because we can lock up minor drug offenders for a long time, when rapists, embezzlers, and serious felons are revolving in and out the door.

Semi-agree with you, and some of the other posters.

The U.S. is MUCH stricter than other countries on drugs, its beyond compare danmac.

But I also think a part of it is that there is a huge gap between the rich and the poor in the U.S., so that the median income here is deceiving.

Basically though, there are so many causes and factors that have to be looked at to determine whether the huge U.S. prison population - that 25% number- is proof that America is the worst nation on the planet. In doing so, you just appear to be a spin artist.

floyd1975

jammin1586 wrote:

But I also think a part of it is that there is a huge gap between the rich and the poor in the U.S., so that the median income here is deceiving.

I don't see the gap as the problem. The problem is that too many of the "poor" criminals believe that they are owed something without having to work for it.

FiveB247x

We have a vengeance system - not a justice system.

blackredyellow

zstillings wrote:

I think it has more to do with the fact that there is a mentality that has taken over the country that starts when people are children and continues throughout life. Our society (I see a lot of this on this board) is no longer willing to place responsibility for a person's crimes with the criminal. A post like this seems to me like part of the problem. When a crime is committed, there is a rush of academics looking to remove the blame from the criminal. This has created a mentality in people that their actions are not their own and the consequences are unfair.

I agree, and it starts with kids... parents aren't teaching their children responsibility or the consequences of their actions, or maybe protecting them from consequenses.

flywallyfly

danmac wrote:

I think its the wrong approach, but slightly off topic. Good point about India and China, which leads me to think that its not maybe the social conditions, its the people, the way of America, of grab grag grab, greed, profit, better yourself, a race to the top, for the most, and fuck everybody else cos its every man for himself. Does this crime come from the capitalist drive, the corporate brain washing into making these people want something more than they should, products, money, cars etc?

Or is it social?

Or is it the American mentality? To take something at the point of a gun.

"Heck, if our leaders are doing it, why can't we?"

I think it has alot do with respect. Or the lack of it. By keeping people blind with consumerism, and fighting each other, the government (or the people, the masters of war behind the government) can go about their daily business of greed and acquisition.

Those are all good points. I guess Britain wants to be just like their big brother according to these statistics. First the best in Europe, next the world!! Welcome aboard, danny !

"With a prison population rate of 142 per 100,000, England and Wales lock up more prisoners per head of the population than any other country in Western Europe, apart from Luxembourg, and far in excess of countries such as Germany, France, Italy, Denmark and Ireland. This represents a 15 per cent increase since 1999."

http://www.kcl.ac.uk/phpnews/wmview.php?ArtID=914

danmac

flywallyfly wrote:

Those are all good points. I guess Britain wants to be just like their big brother according to these statistics. First the best in Europe, next the world!! Welcome aboard, danny !

"With a prison population rate of 142 per 100,000, England and Wales lock up more prisoners per head of the population than any other country in Western Europe, apart from Luxembourg, and far in excess of countries such as Germany, France, Italy, Denmark and Ireland. This represents a 15 per cent increase since 1999."

http://www.kcl.ac.uk/phpnews/wmview.php?ArtID=914

hehe yeah, thats what you get when you invite those pesky scamps at Wackenhut in to 'advise' and 'facilitate' on your prison service!

As for your first point, yeah, we're right there, since 45, big brother's shitty little brother. Though I would contend, and thanks for pointing out the statistic, that the UK's, though climibing rate of incarceration of 139 per 100,000 still lags somewhat behind the US at 686 per 100,000, the highest in the world.

Thats also a damn sight more than the enemies of Freedom like Venezuela (just 62 per 100,000 !) Libya, (127 per 100k), Syria (93 per 100k), Iran (229 per 100k) Pakistan (51 per 100k) China (111 per 100k)

Source, the UK Government and the United Nations.

http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs2/r188.pdf

Makes you wonder why an "evil dictatorship" like Venezuela or Iran has massively lower incarceration rates.

The us rate is the worlds highest, and is comparable with Russia (638 per 1ook). Doesn't that say something? Or is it just me.

brain of c

god bless the usa.

beachdweller

danmac wrote:

"25% of the Worlds Prison Population is in the USA."

Amazing statistic, if true. Ive read it from a couple of sources, so if anyone can counter it as false, or erroneous, then i'm all ears!

If it is true, then does it show that America is the poorest of the so called "rich" countries. As if we needed another indicator of that.

Crime is generally directly related to poverty, (and before those who say, "well i'm poor, and i don't steal, or rob, or cheat," well good luck to you. Humans are not all the same) to lack of education, decent employment etc.

As a former habitee of that country, I can say I was shocked by the levels of poverty I found in what some idiots blindly call the greatest democracy on earth.

Literacy and numeracy levels are the lowest of any civilised nation. Racism is inherent throughout the nation (also shown by the prison statistics). More people live below the poverty line than in any other 'civilised' or 'free' nation.

The US system of 'freedom' and of 'democracy' does nothing but treat the majority of its (unpriveleged, white, black, hispanic, whatever) citizens like the proverbial sack of shit. The aftermath of Katrina showed this to the world.

If you're white, you may have chance, with the help of cheap credit and of white people getting better jobs and a better level of education, of keeping your head above water.

Really, I want good, solid reasons why some of you think the USA is "The Greatest Nation in the World." (TM)

Lists of inventions simply will not cut it.

Lets start with this; since 1798, the USA has barely gone a decade without being engaged, (starting) in conflict on a foriegn field.

Are these the actions of a great and just nation based on Liberty, justice or Equality?

with freedom comes great responsibility, and we seen to fail more and more as time goes by on the responsibility part....