2018 Euro Merch

1565759616294

Comments

  • EM194007EM194007 Posts: 2,592
    edited July 11
    RS65573 said:
    I liked the way Krakow worked, where you email the artist and tell him why you want it.


    You didn't need to tell him why you wanted it. All you had to do is email him your email addy, and his wife sent out their paypal info to send the payment to.


    "Official Pearl Jam Kraków tour poster / Artist Proofs

    18x24” limited numbered signed edition / 100 copies
    The price for each is $140usd including shipment!

    Numerous European bestiaries report that a basilisk is a legendary reptile, a serpent king, that can cause death with a single glance. It hatches every 100 years from eggs that are laid by 7 year old roosters. These eggs are later incubated by toads and vipers for 9 years. (modified quote from Wikipedia)

    There are around 70 copies left - first come, first served rule applies. Here is an e-mail to my wife Eliza who handles all the sales: ([email protected]) Please write her if you are interested in purchasing a copy (only one per person!) and she will get back to you with a PayPal address and ask for the postal address we should send the poster to! Once all the copies are gone ( based on the number of payments made )we will inform you that the prints were sold out and in case anyone misses out and still pays - refund!

    IMPORTANT: In case of damage or loss there are no replacements but we will obviously refund too! We will start shipping the posters starting July 10th and it may take a couple of days before all the copies are shipped out so please be patient. Each poster owner will receive a tracking number to follow his copy.

    In case of any questions please do not hesitate to write me or my wife. Thank you for your attention!"

    Post edited by EM194007 on
  • jjflashjjflash Posts: 3,577
    lolobugg said:

    well said, sir

    as usual

    +1. BK, your work and thoughtfulness are much appreciated :smiley:
  • on2legson2legs The Jersey ShorePosts: 7,194
    That was a great explanation. Thanks, @bradklausen ! I’m wondering if you could shed light on why more posters aren’t produced to meet demand if it’s not too intrusive a question.  

    Thanks!

    =)
    1996: Randall's Island 2
    1998: East Rutherford, MSG 1 & 2
    2000: Cincinnati, Columbus, Jones Beach 1, 2, & 3, Boston 1, Camden 1 & 2
    2003: Philadelphia, Uniondale, MSG 1 & 2, Holmdel
    2005: Atlantic City 1
    2006: Camden 1, East Rutherford 1 & 2
    2008: Camden 1 & 2, MSG 1 & 2, Newark(EV)
    2009: Philadelphia 1, 2, & 4
    2010: Newark, MSG 1 & 2
    2011: Toronto 1
    2013: Wrigley Field, Brooklyn 2, Philadelphia 1 & 2, Baltimore
    2015: Central Park
    2016: Philadelphia 1 & 2, MSG 1 & 2, Fenway Park 2, MSG(TOTD)
    2017: Brooklyn(RnRHOF)
  • maverickmaverick Posts: 1,003
    PJNB said:
    jjflash said:
    From Zeb Love. Props to him for doing what he could to fight the bots and for creating a bada$$ poster.

    I feel for him as it seems he is on his own with no help on these sales but he did nothing to fight the bots/flippers imo and was not prepared for it at all imo. Yes he cancelled orders (up to 6 I am guessing)  but only orders that tried to acquire more then one print. That is the only ones he put back in pot for others to get again. From the start he said 1 poster per person so imo he did nothing other then cancel orders from those that did not listen to that rule. Anyone that had it up on Ebay instantly or used a bot and acquired the 1 print they were allowed went away free. 

    Like I said I am sure he did his best on the sale but to say he was fighting bots/flippers is not entirely accurate imo and just him trying to save a bit of face. All drops here on out that are this style are going to go the same way for any poster that is even remotely sought after. 

    I am a luddite when it comes to website / internet technology, but as far as I know there is no way to know which customers are using a bot and which are not. There is also no way to know the intention of a customer who purchases something from your site. Do they want the poster for themselves or are they gonna flip it? No way of predicting or knowing what the intentions are of every customer. And unfortunately, due to technology, people who are adept in it, can figure out ways to beat someone else to the front of the line...and if they are technologically savvy enough to do this, then that is a skill set that benefits them, should they be punished for understanding technology?... if we all had that ability, we would all utilize it for our own benefit without hesitation because it is a beneficial skill. The one thing I try to do to slow it down a little, is not putting the poster image on my site before the sale (if it is a pj or highly sought after poster) so there is no url established for the page until the moment the sale happens. It is why I also shut the store before the sale so everyone has to login at the same time... but again, being a luddite, I am pretty sure those things do not really slow down the technology savvy people. 

    there is also no real good way to find out what customer is what seller on ebay. Once and a while someone emails and says hey this ebay seller is Joe Blow in such and such city and that allows you to can cancel that order before you ship it. But for the most part that seldom happens because it is tough to find out who is who on ebay in real life because the people putting up posters on ebay before they have them are aware of this.  (Sometimes they are not always very bright though and you get an email from a customer who all the sudden has an address change for their order a few days after they purchased it)

    sadly the conversation that has been happening in this thread, is the same conversation that happens every time, as we are far too often reminded of. And sadly, there is no way to police it. Again there is no way to know the intentions of every customer who purchases something, especially online where transactions are faceless and where ebay users names are aliases. 

    each time a poster artist new to creating pearl jam posters has a sale, it is the same story we all have to go through. They are not anticipating the traffic or the demand. Their site crashes or the sale oversells and they have to issue refunds. And it is a big headache, especially when you are dealing with the finances of other people who sent you money. From personal experience, when this happens, it not only becomes a big time suck  but it is stressful and frustrating and a drag because of all the time and energy you have to invest in fixing this and you know you have to tell people who are stoked that they got the poster that they in fact did not. So you have to email people and be a wet blanket debbie downer and say sorry, you did not get it. 

    I have been making pj posters for 14 years now, and the immediate flipping issue never goes away, and it never will. And it is infuriating. But you can only be mad and angry for so long before you realize there is not a whole lot you can do to stop it. No artists wants to sell posters to people who could care less about the poster and are hoping to profit off your hard work. Every artists wants their posters to go to homes of people who love the art or were at the show or love the band, or all of the above. No artist is stoked when some jack ass buys your art and them resells it for a small profit to someone you would rather have sold it to in the first place. No artist is stoked when their site crashes or the sale oversells and you now have to sift through orders and process refunds and send out emails deflating and bumming people out who were excited and happy.  

    The one takeaway from it all, is it is kind of a testament to how much pj fans love posters and love art. 

     


    Brad, 
    Thanks for the very thoughtful perspective!  

    What are your thoughts on a blind / Dutch auction?  The name may be incorrect but follow me...   Anyone interested in an AP sends the artist an email with the price they are willing to pay.  The artist notes the email addresses and amounts in an Excel file.  Sort by highest price and those 100 are the ones able to purchase the poster via individual PayPal invoices.  No doubt it will be more time consuming for the artist, but it would also maximize profit for the artist (who we all agree should get the profit) and may minimize flipping because the risk /reward may not be as enticing if they have to spend hundreds instead of $65 for the poster. 
    I realize this may not be popular with many, not logistically feasible, but it’s an idea based on minimizing fippers getting posters, maximizing profit for the artist, and maximizing the number of posters into the hands of the people who truly want them and are willing to pay for them.  
  • drakeheuer14drakeheuer14 Posts: 1,995
    ^collecting posters via price is right format. 

    One dollar, Bob! 
    Pittsburgh 2013
    Cincinnati 2014
    Greenville 2016
    (Raleigh 2016)
    Columbia 2016
  • Lost In OhioLost In Ohio Posts: 4,609

    The second Pendleton that I like...



    A foil variant of the Pendleton Global Citizens Fest would have looked...pretty much like this.
    Presidential Advice from President-Elect Mike McCready: "Are you getting something out of this all encompassing trip?"
  • bradklausenbradklausen Posts: 215
    on2legs said:
    That was a great explanation. Thanks, @bradklausen ! I’m wondering if you could shed light on why more posters aren’t produced to meet demand if it’s not too intrusive a question.  

    Thanks!

    =)
    because you cannot very accurately anticipate which posters there will be demand for. If you print too many and people do not respond to the design or the artist maybe does not put their best foot forward or has an off day, you are left with a lot of inventory. So you paid to print more posters so more people can have a chance but it turns out more people do not want this or that poster. And you just end up with stacks of paper taking up space. 100 posters does not sound like very many, until you try to sell 100 and no one really wants them, and then that stack of 100 posters all the sudden starts looking like a lot of posters no one is interested in. It is the same thing with any piece of merchandise, you dont wanna make and pay for  too many t-shirts and be left after a tour with boxes and boxes of t-shirts you spent money on and now need to give away or figure out what to do with them, which happens all the time. 

    As for artist copies, that is how the artist gets paid by the merchandise company. Each artist only gets x amount as payment. So the artist copies will always be limited. 




  • cp3iversoncp3iverson Posts: 4,389
    edited July 11
    When i bought the wine it held it for me.  I realize this doesnt defeat bots but it was nice to take my time to check out.  Wish artists did this.  The poster is going to sell out whether its at 12:01 or 12:16  I seem to remember Munk One doing this at one time maybe?
  • KW6232KW6232 Posts: 158
    @bradklausen
    what is your feeling on a lottery to get a poster. Just choose 100 winners or how many posters you are selling. Wouldn't that be the fairest way. 
  • bradklausenbradklausen Posts: 215
    maverick said:
    PJNB said:
    jjflash said:
    From Zeb Love. Props to him for doing what he could to fight the bots and for creating a bada$$ poster.

    I feel for him as it seems he is on his own with no help on these sales but he did nothing to fight the bots/flippers imo and was not prepared for it at all imo. Yes he cancelled orders (up to 6 I am guessing)  but only orders that tried to acquire more then one print. That is the only ones he put back in pot for others to get again. From the start he said 1 poster per person so imo he did nothing other then cancel orders from those that did not listen to that rule. Anyone that had it up on Ebay instantly or used a bot and acquired the 1 print they were allowed went away free. 

    Like I said I am sure he did his best on the sale but to say he was fighting bots/flippers is not entirely accurate imo and just him trying to save a bit of face. All drops here on out that are this style are going to go the same way for any poster that is even remotely sought after. 

    I am a luddite when it comes to website / internet technology, but as far as I know there is no way to know which customers are using a bot and which are not. There is also no way to know the intention of a customer who purchases something from your site. Do they want the poster for themselves or are they gonna flip it? No way of predicting or knowing what the intentions are of every customer. And unfortunately, due to technology, people who are adept in it, can figure out ways to beat someone else to the front of the line...and if they are technologically savvy enough to do this, then that is a skill set that benefits them, should they be punished for understanding technology?... if we all had that ability, we would all utilize it for our own benefit without hesitation because it is a beneficial skill. The one thing I try to do to slow it down a little, is not putting the poster image on my site before the sale (if it is a pj or highly sought after poster) so there is no url established for the page until the moment the sale happens. It is why I also shut the store before the sale so everyone has to login at the same time... but again, being a luddite, I am pretty sure those things do not really slow down the technology savvy people. 

    there is also no real good way to find out what customer is what seller on ebay. Once and a while someone emails and says hey this ebay seller is Joe Blow in such and such city and that allows you to can cancel that order before you ship it. But for the most part that seldom happens because it is tough to find out who is who on ebay in real life because the people putting up posters on ebay before they have them are aware of this.  (Sometimes they are not always very bright though and you get an email from a customer who all the sudden has an address change for their order a few days after they purchased it)

    sadly the conversation that has been happening in this thread, is the same conversation that happens every time, as we are far too often reminded of. And sadly, there is no way to police it. Again there is no way to know the intentions of every customer who purchases something, especially online where transactions are faceless and where ebay users names are aliases. 

    each time a poster artist new to creating pearl jam posters has a sale, it is the same story we all have to go through. They are not anticipating the traffic or the demand. Their site crashes or the sale oversells and they have to issue refunds. And it is a big headache, especially when you are dealing with the finances of other people who sent you money. From personal experience, when this happens, it not only becomes a big time suck  but it is stressful and frustrating and a drag because of all the time and energy you have to invest in fixing this and you know you have to tell people who are stoked that they got the poster that they in fact did not. So you have to email people and be a wet blanket debbie downer and say sorry, you did not get it. 

    I have been making pj posters for 14 years now, and the immediate flipping issue never goes away, and it never will. And it is infuriating. But you can only be mad and angry for so long before you realize there is not a whole lot you can do to stop it. No artists wants to sell posters to people who could care less about the poster and are hoping to profit off your hard work. Every artists wants their posters to go to homes of people who love the art or were at the show or love the band, or all of the above. No artist is stoked when some jack ass buys your art and them resells it for a small profit to someone you would rather have sold it to in the first place. No artist is stoked when their site crashes or the sale oversells and you now have to sift through orders and process refunds and send out emails deflating and bumming people out who were excited and happy.  

    The one takeaway from it all, is it is kind of a testament to how much pj fans love posters and love art. 

     


    Brad, 
    Thanks for the very thoughtful perspective!  

    What are your thoughts on a blind / Dutch auction?  The name may be incorrect but follow me...   Anyone interested in an AP sends the artist an email with the price they are willing to pay.  The artist notes the email addresses and amounts in an Excel file.  Sort by highest price and those 100 are the ones able to purchase the poster via individual PayPal invoices.  No doubt it will be more time consuming for the artist, but it would also maximize profit for the artist (who we all agree should get the profit) and may minimize flipping because the risk /reward may not be as enticing if they have to spend hundreds instead of $65 for the poster. 
    I realize this may not be popular with many, not logistically feasible, but it’s an idea based on minimizing fippers getting posters, maximizing profit for the artist, and maximizing the number of posters into the hands of the people who truly want them and are willing to pay for them.  
    Interesting idea, would be a lot more work for sure, instead of just having an online store with a button to purchase the poster and all the info is collected for you. Would it make posters flip for more though? If 100 people priced up the poster and made it so someone who could only afford $65 got priced out, then when the posters hit ebay the flipper could mark it up more saying the going rate for this from the  dutch auction wound up being over $200 - 300 then they could ebay at for $600 or $700 or whatever and the posters become even more exclusive because only bigger spenders had a shot at it... so you end up selling more to people who can pay more then to people who maybe have to scrape up $65 but love the art and are willing to sacrifice some cash and eat ramen noodles for a week in order to get a momento from the show they went to. 


  • drakeheuer14drakeheuer14 Posts: 1,995
    I think some of the flipping outrage is a little overblown. I think less than 20% hit the market, even with these prices they will go for. And subtract the ones that won’t sell and we are down to even less. 

    Battling bots would be nice if possible, but it isn’t that bad. Something limited in nature isn’t meant for everyone to have. This might sound harsh and not fun, but if you really want a poster, get to the line early and you will. I think it is pretty funny when people say I got in line an hour before it opened and are pissed when the miss out. 

    I do think they could bump up SE runs, but they obviously did that for Fenway last time and look at the shop now... 

    100 people will get the AP and 500+ more won’t get it no matter what anyways. 

    Pittsburgh 2013
    Cincinnati 2014
    Greenville 2016
    (Raleigh 2016)
    Columbia 2016
  • cp3iversoncp3iverson Posts: 4,389
    No easy answers.  
  • bradklausenbradklausen Posts: 215
    KW6232 said:
    @bradklausen
    what is your feeling on a lottery to get a poster. Just choose 100 winners or how many posters you are selling. Wouldn't that be the fairest way. 
    I know some artists do lotteries... I have not done them so I cannot speak to if that is a more fair way or not... maybe people who have purchased posters from artists through lotteries can comment on if they feel that process is better or more preferable. Emek does lotteries right?  



  • lolobugglolobugg BLUE RDGE MTNSPosts: 7,463
    lolobugg said:

    @bradklausen

    Brad, are you doing any posters for the US tour?


    so are ya?

    or can you not answer this question yet.

    livefootsteps.org/user/?usr=446

    1995- New Orleans, LA

    1996- Charleston, SC

    1998- Atlanta, GA: Birmingham, AL: Greenville, SC: Knoxville, TN

    2000- Atlanta, GA: New Orleans, LA: Memphis, TN: Nashville, TN

    2003- Raleigh, NC: Charlotte, NC: Atlanta, GA

    2004- Asheville, NC (hometown show)

    2006- Cincinnati, OH

    2008- Columbia, SC

    2009- Chicago, IL x 2 / Ed Ved- Atlanta, GA x 2

    2010- Bristow, VA

    2011- Alpine Valley, WI (PJ20) x 2 / Ed Ved- Chicago, IL

    2012- Atlanta, GA

    2013- Charlotte, NC

    2014- Cincinnati, OH

    2015- New York, NY

    2016- Greenville, SC: Hampton, VA:: Columbia, SC: Lexington, KY: Philly, PA 2: (Wrigley) Chicago, IL x 2 (holy shit): Temple of the Dog- Philly, PA

    2017- ED VED- Louisville, KY

    2018- Chicago, IL x2, Boston, MA x2

  • drakeheuer14drakeheuer14 Posts: 1,995
    KW6232 said:
    @bradklausen
    what is your feeling on a lottery to get a poster. Just choose 100 winners or how many posters you are selling. Wouldn't that be the fairest way. 
    I know some artists do lotteries... I have not done them so I cannot speak to if that is a more fair way or not... maybe people who have purchased posters from artists through lotteries can comment on if they feel that process is better or more preferable. Emek does lotteries right?  



    Lottos are good. But if it is the new trend, a fun way to keep it somewhat competitive in my opinion is to only open the entry period for 5-10 minutes. 
    Pittsburgh 2013
    Cincinnati 2014
    Greenville 2016
    (Raleigh 2016)
    Columbia 2016
  • on2legson2legs The Jersey ShorePosts: 7,194
    on2legs said:
    That was a great explanation. Thanks, @bradklausen ! I’m wondering if you could shed light on why more posters aren’t produced to meet demand if it’s not too intrusive a question.  

    Thanks!

    =)
    because you cannot very accurately anticipate which posters there will be demand for. If you print too many and people do not respond to the design or the artist maybe does not put their best foot forward or has an off day, you are left with a lot of inventory. So you paid to print more posters so more people can have a chance but it turns out more people do not want this or that poster. And you just end up with stacks of paper taking up space. 100 posters does not sound like very many, until you try to sell 100 and no one really wants them, and then that stack of 100 posters all the sudden starts looking like a lot of posters no one is interested in. It is the same thing with any piece of merchandise, you dont wanna make and pay for  too many t-shirts and be left after a tour with boxes and boxes of t-shirts you spent money on and now need to give away or figure out what to do with them, which happens all the time. 

    As for artist copies, that is how the artist gets paid by the merchandise company. Each artist only gets x amount as payment. So the artist copies will always be limited. 




    Good to know and thank you for taking the time to explain it. 
    1996: Randall's Island 2
    1998: East Rutherford, MSG 1 & 2
    2000: Cincinnati, Columbus, Jones Beach 1, 2, & 3, Boston 1, Camden 1 & 2
    2003: Philadelphia, Uniondale, MSG 1 & 2, Holmdel
    2005: Atlantic City 1
    2006: Camden 1, East Rutherford 1 & 2
    2008: Camden 1 & 2, MSG 1 & 2, Newark(EV)
    2009: Philadelphia 1, 2, & 4
    2010: Newark, MSG 1 & 2
    2011: Toronto 1
    2013: Wrigley Field, Brooklyn 2, Philadelphia 1 & 2, Baltimore
    2015: Central Park
    2016: Philadelphia 1 & 2, MSG 1 & 2, Fenway Park 2, MSG(TOTD)
    2017: Brooklyn(RnRHOF)
  • bradklausenbradklausen Posts: 215
    I think some of the flipping outrage is a little overblown. I think less than 20% hit the market, even with these prices they will go for. And subtract the ones that won’t sell and we are down to even less. 

    Battling bots would be nice if possible, but it isn’t that bad. Something limited in nature isn’t meant for everyone to have. This might sound harsh and not fun, but if you really want a poster, get to the line early and you will. I think it is pretty funny when people say I got in line an hour before it opened and are pissed when the miss out. 

    I do think they could bump up SE runs, but they obviously did that for Fenway last time and look at the shop now... 

    100 people will get the AP and 500+ more won’t get it no matter what anyways. 

    yeah... and Pj is an internationally famous band... so instead of lining up outside a brick and mortar store in your town, you are lining up to an online store that the whole world has access to. So you are not just competing for a spot in line with the people in your town interested in the thing you like, you are competing with everyone on the planet that likes the same thing you like. 

    I like to go snowboarding, and like most people, prefer to do that when it is not crowded... when I go on days when it is crowded I get all angry and mad at all these other people being there... and my lady often reminds me, you mean all these people who are here because they too love the same thing you love...?  Right!  how dare these other people also enjoy the thing I too enjoy!!!  how dare they try and do the exact same thing I am doing on the same day!! 

    as for battling bots... can you? is there software to determine if a customer using your site figured out some algorithm or some code to help them purchase things online? And if they can do that, is that wrong? Should people who are better at using computers and the internet be penalized because they have more knowledge then others? For having an interest and knowledge in how the internet works and how websites function and are code writers, I dont feel like those people should have to be punished for being better at something then someone else... does it give them an advantage, of course, but that is the benefit of having knowledge and skills, it gives you and advantage over those who do not have the same knowledge or skill..... should someone be penalized for just having a faster computer? for having a better internet connection then someone living in some rural setting where their internet speed is slower? If you have an old out of date computer like I do, and it takes longer then new computers for your webpages to refresh and connect to, should those people be allowed a head start because they are not as equipped as someone else with a better machine? 



    oh my word, like always, when you see my posting... guaranteed I am procrastinating and should be drawing... 
  • redrawredraw Posts: 871
    on2legs said:
    That was a great explanation. Thanks, @bradklausen ! I’m wondering if you could shed light on why more posters aren’t produced to meet demand if it’s not too intrusive a question.  

    Thanks!

    =)
    because you cannot very accurately anticipate which posters there will be demand for. If you print too many and people do not respond to the design or the artist maybe does not put their best foot forward or has an off day, you are left with a lot of inventory. So you paid to print more posters so more people can have a chance but it turns out more people do not want this or that poster. And you just end up with stacks of paper taking up space. 100 posters does not sound like very many, until you try to sell 100 and no one really wants them, and then that stack of 100 posters all the sudden starts looking like a lot of posters no one is interested in. It is the same thing with any piece of merchandise, you dont wanna make and pay for  too many t-shirts and be left after a tour with boxes and boxes of t-shirts you spent money on and now need to give away or figure out what to do with them, which happens all the time. 

    As for artist copies, that is how the artist gets paid by the merchandise company. Each artist only gets x amount as payment. So the artist copies will always be limited. 




    Really cool as always to get your input Brad!!!
    Totally understand your point with surplus stock but surely based on past & current sales, anyone doing a PJ poster run should be pretty confident that they will easily sell 200-300 APs unless the poster is an absolute stinker.....
    If 100 disappear within minutes (even seconds) then this would be a pretty safe bet.
    But would a higher available number somehow decrease the desirability??
    Perhaps it would for flippers but that could only be a good thing!!!
    More posters must mean more true fans will get them but what is the magic number- who knows???
    '95: Brisbane BEC March 21 & 22 '98: Brisbane BEC March 14 & 15 '03: Brad Surfers Paradise Troccadero Jan 11
    '03: Brisbane BEC Feb 8 '06: Brisbane BEC Nov 10 & 11 '09: Brisbane QSAC Nov 25
    '11: EV Solo Brisbane QPAC March 10, 12 & 13 '11: PJ20 Alpine Valley Sep 3 & 4
    '14: Gold Coast BDO Jan 19 EV Solo QPAC Feb 22, 23 & 25
  • slug420slug420 Posts: 316
    edited July 11
    I think its just a question (for you BK) of what the purpose of the AP sale is for.  If its to make money (no shame in that at all) then you should auction them or waffle them or something so you get make the profits not the flippers.

    If its to get the art in the hands of the fans at a reasonable price, then a lottery system (maybe with a validated CC with billing/shipping address tied to each lottery entry) should eliminate most bots, or at the very least level the playing field a little.

    If its to get the art in the hands of the most clever purchasers (again, this might be a valid purpose, no shame in it necessarily) then the current model where the more knowledgeable people who take the time to write bots, get the prints, and make the flipping profits.

    One very fair point you made about it not being wrong for people to be rewarded because they are more knowledgeable about something and take the time to learn about it...bots aside, for how many years have some people been in the "knowledgeable" population of poster collectors who even knew about APs and Artist releases?  For quite a while I just knew they sold them at shows and that was it...didn't know there was such a thing as an AP.  I also didn't know until recently that Santos would randomly drop posters - sometimes really desirable ones -  in the 10c store with some sort of predictability.  Only those people in the know were able to score APs or these surplus prints through 10c.  Those same people now complain because the bots have come in and made it hard for them to get that thing...but they were not worried about all the fans that were essentially shut out from APs or 10c drops due to lack of knowledge before the bots.....so maybe you're onto something.

    Another debate that has raged for forever is the idea that any event tickets should ONLY be sold for face value, whereas those same people expecting to buy tickets for face felt free to sell posters for 10xFace.  My theory has always been that the reason for this, is the majority of the hardcore fans feel they have more control over getting a poster than they do the tickets.  Where they are not in control, subject to the lottery, they dont want to be stuck paying marked up ticket prices, but when they know about the AP drops, the variants, and they know legions of hardcore fans who camp out in lines for 24 hours to get a poster...they feel comfortable that they can get one for face...so screw everyone else.

    Now suddenly the rise of the bots, the same legion of hardcore fans is having trouble getting their face value posters through the normal means, and suddenly that's an issue.  Realistically the difficult time hardcore fans/collectors are now having getting APs because of bots is no worse than the impossible time a casual fan has had for a decade going into a venue around the time the band is going to go on and trying to find an SE at a merch stand.  The problem is not new, its only a question of who is impacted.
    Post edited by slug420 on
  • drakeheuer14drakeheuer14 Posts: 1,995
    All fair points. Poster collecting is nothing more than a game. People have natural advantages (typing fast) and they have to compete against unnatural advantages with bots. Like the clean athlete vs the doped up athlete. 

    I don’t lose sleep over any of this. But it is all very interesting. You and other artists are getting paid for great work either way and that’s all that matters and I don’t blame you or them a bit. Thanks for the input 
    Pittsburgh 2013
    Cincinnati 2014
    Greenville 2016
    (Raleigh 2016)
    Columbia 2016
  • WildFlyWildFly Posts: 153
    @bradklausen ;
    I wish more artist were set up to sell their A/P like your site.  Like you said there is no way to have a perfect concept to get the prints into the hands of fans that truly appreciate the art and experience they had at the show.  Your only talking about 100 prints with tens of thousands wanting one of the 100.  In my opinion you should only be able to purchase an A/P during an artist sale if you are a member of the 10C.  Still not going to stop all the madness of flippers but at least stop the outsider from profiting off true fans that are members.  I appreciate the fact you interact with all of us and love the fact you are part of our community.  Keep up the awesome art!!!
  • PJNBPJNB New BrunswickPosts: 3,930
    I think some of the flipping outrage is a little overblown. I think less than 20% hit the market, even with these prices they will go for. And subtract the ones that won’t sell and we are down to even less. 

    Battling bots would be nice if possible, but it isn’t that bad. Something limited in nature isn’t meant for everyone to have. This might sound harsh and not fun, but if you really want a poster, get to the line early and you will. I think it is pretty funny when people say I got in line an hour before it opened and are pissed when the miss out. 

    I do think they could bump up SE runs, but they obviously did that for Fenway last time and look at the shop now... 

    100 people will get the AP and 500+ more won’t get it no matter what anyways. 

    yeah... and Pj is an internationally famous band... so instead of lining up outside a brick and mortar store in your town, you are lining up to an online store that the whole world has access to. So you are not just competing for a spot in line with the people in your town interested in the thing you like, you are competing with everyone on the planet that likes the same thing you like. 

    I like to go snowboarding, and like most people, prefer to do that when it is not crowded... when I go on days when it is crowded I get all angry and mad at all these other people being there... and my lady often reminds me, you mean all these people who are here because they too love the same thing you love...?  Right!  how dare these other people also enjoy the thing I too enjoy!!!  how dare they try and do the exact same thing I am doing on the same day!! 

    as for battling bots... can you? is there software to determine if a customer using your site figured out some algorithm or some code to help them purchase things online? And if they can do that, is that wrong? Should people who are better at using computers and the internet be penalized because they have more knowledge then others? For having an interest and knowledge in how the internet works and how websites function and are code writers, I dont feel like those people should have to be punished for being better at something then someone else... does it give them an advantage, of course, but that is the benefit of having knowledge and skills, it gives you and advantage over those who do not have the same knowledge or skill..... should someone be penalized for just having a faster computer? for having a better internet connection then someone living in some rural setting where their internet speed is slower? If you have an old out of date computer like I do, and it takes longer then new computers for your webpages to refresh and connect to, should those people be allowed a head start because they are not as equipped as someone else with a better machine? 



    oh my word, like always, when you see my posting... guaranteed I am procrastinating and should be drawing... 
    I do not think they should be penalized for being better at knowing how websites work and shortcuts in that regard if that is the method of sale that you as the artist choose. No sale method is perfect but the system in place for most sites now only benefits these people and leaves it impossible for others to have a shot. Why limit it to such a small group of people instead of giving the opportunity to the masses? The only reason I would imagine is the time factor of setting something else up as Mumford did for his Brazil print. People can still game that system but it still gives those that are not educated on websites/software manipulation a chance that they would otherwise not have. I also wish that they would give you the opportunity to bump up your AP stocks. I think it is proven that the majority of AP's are selling out and it would in no way take away from the SE imo. Win for you and win for us real fans that want a print as our odds just got better. Thanks for your insight and get back to work!


    PJ
    2013 Worcester 1 & 2
    2016 Quebec, Toronto 2, Fenway 1&2, Wrigley 2
    2018 Prague, Krakow, Berlin, Seattle 2, Wrigley 2, Fenway 1&2 

    EV
    2017 Firenze, Taormina 1 & 2
  • JamesNJamesN Fort LauderdalePosts: 129
    Why not timed editions??
    If you have an off day, no excess...
    If you nail it, reap the rewards...
    Eads does timed, & there is still a robust
    secondary market for eBay flippers
    - As well as (Especially!) PJ Vault vinyls - Good luck trying to find ANY Vault for cost!! HAHA
    Renegotiate with the band(s) - Timed APs, 
    let the fans decide the run...Some people will
    undoubtedly miss out as per normal, but those
    astute enthusiasts won't have to pay outrageous
    prices for something they want - & so much more
    $$$ would end up with the well-deserving artist.
    Wasn't looking too good but I was feeling real well...
  • sheenTNsheenTN Posts: 149
    I think some of the flipping outrage is a little overblown. I think less than 20% hit the market, even with these prices they will go for. And subtract the ones that won’t sell and we are down to even less. 

    Battling bots would be nice if possible, but it isn’t that bad. Something limited in nature isn’t meant for everyone to have. This might sound harsh and not fun, but if you really want a poster, get to the line early and you will. I think it is pretty funny when people say I got in line an hour before it opened and are pissed when the miss out. 

    I do think they could bump up SE runs, but they obviously did that for Fenway last time and look at the shop now... 

    100 people will get the AP and 500+ more won’t get it no matter what anyways. 

    yeah... and Pj is an internationally famous band... so instead of lining up outside a brick and mortar store in your town, you are lining up to an online store that the whole world has access to. So you are not just competing for a spot in line with the people in your town interested in the thing you like, you are competing with everyone on the planet that likes the same thing you like. 

    I like to go snowboarding, and like most people, prefer to do that when it is not crowded... when I go on days when it is crowded I get all angry and mad at all these other people being there... and my lady often reminds me, you mean all these people who are here because they too love the same thing you love...?  Right!  how dare these other people also enjoy the thing I too enjoy!!!  how dare they try and do the exact same thing I am doing on the same day!! 

    as for battling bots... can you? is there software to determine if a customer using your site figured out some algorithm or some code to help them purchase things online? And if they can do that, is that wrong? Should people who are better at using computers and the internet be penalized because they have more knowledge then others? For having an interest and knowledge in how the internet works and how websites function and are code writers, I dont feel like those people should have to be punished for being better at something then someone else... does it give them an advantage, of course, but that is the benefit of having knowledge and skills, it gives you and advantage over those who do not have the same knowledge or skill..... should someone be penalized for just having a faster computer? for having a better internet connection then someone living in some rural setting where their internet speed is slower? If you have an old out of date computer like I do, and it takes longer then new computers for your webpages to refresh and connect to, should those people be allowed a head start because they are not as equipped as someone else with a better machine? 



    oh my word, like always, when you see my posting... guaranteed I am procrastinating and should be drawing... 
    Thanks for your insight on the artist side of this and after reading some of these posts would it best maximize your costs as well as appease the fans if you had an AP preorder in a limited time frame?  Maybe have the preorder option open for 3-5 days which can keep the limited nature of APs yet still avoid the craziness of the online sales crush at one particular time.  For the artists you could give yourself a cap on how many you would be willing to make BUT you will not have any leftover inventory plus you will maximize your profits because in today’s poster/art market you will surely sell many more than the short runs that are currently selling out immediately.  Love your work and have many of your prints on my wall today so I would love to see you get a bigger chunk of this flippers market on YOUR art that you deserve!
    Knoxville '98, Greensboro 2000, Raleigh 2003, Nashville 2003, Asheville 2004, Bonnaroo 2008, Columbia 2008, EV The Ryman 1&2 2009, Alpine Valley 1&2 2011, Charlotte 2013, Columbia 2016, Lexington 2016, Bonnaroo 2016
  • JBob87JBob87 Posts: 39
    Lotteries (even w/a limited entry window of 10-15 min) would at least negate the bots impact
  • bradklausenbradklausen Posts: 215
    slug420 said:
    I think its just a question (for you BK) of what the purpose of the AP sale is for.  If its to make money (no shame in that at all) then you should auction them or waffle them or something so you get make the profits not the flippers.

    If its to get the art in the hands of the fans at a reasonable price, then a lottery system (maybe with a validated CC with billing/shipping address tied to each lottery entry) should eliminate most bots, or at the very least level the playing field a little.

    If its to get the art in the hands of the most clever purchasers (again, this might be a valid purpose, no shame in it necessarily) then the current model where the more knowledgeable people who take the time to write bots, get the prints, and make the flipping profits.

    One very fair point you made about it not being wrong for people to be rewarded because they are more knowledgeable about something and take the time to learn about it...bots aside, for how many years have some people been in the "knowledgeable" population of poster collectors who even knew about APs and Artist releases?  For quite a while I just knew they sold them at shows and that was it...didn't know there was such a thing as an AP.  I also didn't know until recently that Santos would randomly drop posters - sometimes really desirable ones -  in the 10c store with some sort of predictability.  Only those people in the know were able to score APs or these surplus prints through 10c.  Those same people now complain because the bots have come in and made it hard for them to get that thing...but they were not worried about all the fans that were essentially shut out from APs or 10c drops due to lack of knowledge before the bots.....so maybe you're onto something.

    Another debate that has raged for forever is the idea that any event tickets should ONLY be sold for face value, whereas those same people expecting to buy tickets for face felt free to sell posters for 10xFace.  My theory has always been that the reason for this, is the majority of the hardcore fans feel they have more control over getting a poster than they do the tickets.  Where they are not in control, subject to the lottery, they dont want to be stuck paying marked up ticket prices, but when they know about the AP drops, the variants, and they know legions of hardcore fans who camp out in lines for 24 hours to get a poster...they feel comfortable that they can get one for face...so screw everyone else.

    Now suddenly the rise of the bots, the same legion of hardcore fans is having trouble getting their face value posters through the normal means, and suddenly that's an issue.  Realistically the difficult time hardcore fans/collectors are now having getting APs because of bots is no worse than the impossible time a casual fan has had for a decade going into a venue around the time the band is going to go on and trying to find an SE at a merch stand.  The problem is not new, its only a question of who is impacted.

    the purpose number one of the AP sale is to get paid for the work done. The merch company gives you x amount as a payment, you have to sell those to get paid for your time and put food on the table. 

    but after that you want the posters to go to people who want them. Who like the art and went to the show. That is one of the fun parts of making these things is knowing you are making something that someone will frame and look at for months and months or years and years and it will be a visual reminder of the time they had at the show. I recently saw the Queens play at the Key Arena, and have seen them many times before, but that night for some reason was one of the most fun times I have had seeing live music... and since that show in January whenever I think about it, it makes me happy, it generates that feeling again. It is a cool component to making posters that you are creating something that will do that for someone, trigger that memory, trigger those feelings and maybe for a moment take them back to that night.

    I only bring up the advantage that someone who can create a bot has and should not be penalized for it, because it is really no different then back in the day when you had to go wait in line for hours out front of Tower Records or some record shop to buy tickets through ticketmaster for big concerts like PJ or whoever... some people camped out for days ahead of time... but if tickets go on sale wednesday at 10 AM at the local Tower Records and someone has a car and I only have a bike or a bus pass, the person with the car has an advantage and will get a better spot in line then I do,... should the person who has a car be penalized or handicapped because they have and advantage I do not have? Is it fair that they have a technology I do not have, the technology of the car vs the technology of a bicycle?  Apply that same logic to the internet, and someone with a faster computer, faster internet connection, more technical knowledge, and they will get to the poster or tickets before you. That is just what I think of when the conversation of the fairness of bots is brought up... I do not wanna compete with them either for anything online, but people use them and using bots is not an unethical or immoral or illegal thing, so if I cannot compete with people who have figured things out I have not figured out, I am unfortunately not going to fare as well as them. 
  • on2legson2legs The Jersey ShorePosts: 7,194
    sheenTN said:
    I think some of the flipping outrage is a little overblown. I think less than 20% hit the market, even with these prices they will go for. And subtract the ones that won’t sell and we are down to even less. 

    Battling bots would be nice if possible, but it isn’t that bad. Something limited in nature isn’t meant for everyone to have. This might sound harsh and not fun, but if you really want a poster, get to the line early and you will. I think it is pretty funny when people say I got in line an hour before it opened and are pissed when the miss out. 

    I do think they could bump up SE runs, but they obviously did that for Fenway last time and look at the shop now... 

    100 people will get the AP and 500+ more won’t get it no matter what anyways. 

    yeah... and Pj is an internationally famous band... so instead of lining up outside a brick and mortar store in your town, you are lining up to an online store that the whole world has access to. So you are not just competing for a spot in line with the people in your town interested in the thing you like, you are competing with everyone on the planet that likes the same thing you like. 

    I like to go snowboarding, and like most people, prefer to do that when it is not crowded... when I go on days when it is crowded I get all angry and mad at all these other people being there... and my lady often reminds me, you mean all these people who are here because they too love the same thing you love...?  Right!  how dare these other people also enjoy the thing I too enjoy!!!  how dare they try and do the exact same thing I am doing on the same day!! 

    as for battling bots... can you? is there software to determine if a customer using your site figured out some algorithm or some code to help them purchase things online? And if they can do that, is that wrong? Should people who are better at using computers and the internet be penalized because they have more knowledge then others? For having an interest and knowledge in how the internet works and how websites function and are code writers, I dont feel like those people should have to be punished for being better at something then someone else... does it give them an advantage, of course, but that is the benefit of having knowledge and skills, it gives you and advantage over those who do not have the same knowledge or skill..... should someone be penalized for just having a faster computer? for having a better internet connection then someone living in some rural setting where their internet speed is slower? If you have an old out of date computer like I do, and it takes longer then new computers for your webpages to refresh and connect to, should those people be allowed a head start because they are not as equipped as someone else with a better machine? 



    oh my word, like always, when you see my posting... guaranteed I am procrastinating and should be drawing... 
    Thanks for your insight on the artist side of this and after reading some of these posts would it best maximize your costs as well as appease the fans if you had an AP preorder in a limited time frame?  Maybe have the preorder option open for 3-5 days which can keep the limited nature of APs yet still avoid the craziness of the online sales crush at one particular time.  For the artists you could give yourself a cap on how many you would be willing to make BUT you will not have any leftover inventory plus you will maximize your profits because in today’s poster/art market you will surely sell many more than the short runs that are currently selling out immediately.  Love your work and have many of your prints on my wall today so I would love to see you get a bigger chunk of this flippers market on YOUR art that you deserve!
    I think he said that the number of AP prints he is allowed to sell is determined by the band.   Not the artist. 
    1996: Randall's Island 2
    1998: East Rutherford, MSG 1 & 2
    2000: Cincinnati, Columbus, Jones Beach 1, 2, & 3, Boston 1, Camden 1 & 2
    2003: Philadelphia, Uniondale, MSG 1 & 2, Holmdel
    2005: Atlantic City 1
    2006: Camden 1, East Rutherford 1 & 2
    2008: Camden 1 & 2, MSG 1 & 2, Newark(EV)
    2009: Philadelphia 1, 2, & 4
    2010: Newark, MSG 1 & 2
    2011: Toronto 1
    2013: Wrigley Field, Brooklyn 2, Philadelphia 1 & 2, Baltimore
    2015: Central Park
    2016: Philadelphia 1 & 2, MSG 1 & 2, Fenway Park 2, MSG(TOTD)
    2017: Brooklyn(RnRHOF)
  • sheenTNsheenTN Posts: 149
    on2legs said:
    sheenTN said:
    I think some of the flipping outrage is a little overblown. I think less than 20% hit the market, even with these prices they will go for. And subtract the ones that won’t sell and we are down to even less. 

    Battling bots would be nice if possible, but it isn’t that bad. Something limited in nature isn’t meant for everyone to have. This might sound harsh and not fun, but if you really want a poster, get to the line early and you will. I think it is pretty funny when people say I got in line an hour before it opened and are pissed when the miss out. 

    I do think they could bump up SE runs, but they obviously did that for Fenway last time and look at the shop now... 

    100 people will get the AP and 500+ more won’t get it no matter what anyways. 

    yeah... and Pj is an internationally famous band... so instead of lining up outside a brick and mortar store in your town, you are lining up to an online store that the whole world has access to. So you are not just competing for a spot in line with the people in your town interested in the thing you like, you are competing with everyone on the planet that likes the same thing you like. 

    I like to go snowboarding, and like most people, prefer to do that when it is not crowded... when I go on days when it is crowded I get all angry and mad at all these other people being there... and my lady often reminds me, you mean all these people who are here because they too love the same thing you love...?  Right!  how dare these other people also enjoy the thing I too enjoy!!!  how dare they try and do the exact same thing I am doing on the same day!! 

    as for battling bots... can you? is there software to determine if a customer using your site figured out some algorithm or some code to help them purchase things online? And if they can do that, is that wrong? Should people who are better at using computers and the internet be penalized because they have more knowledge then others? For having an interest and knowledge in how the internet works and how websites function and are code writers, I dont feel like those people should have to be punished for being better at something then someone else... does it give them an advantage, of course, but that is the benefit of having knowledge and skills, it gives you and advantage over those who do not have the same knowledge or skill..... should someone be penalized for just having a faster computer? for having a better internet connection then someone living in some rural setting where their internet speed is slower? If you have an old out of date computer like I do, and it takes longer then new computers for your webpages to refresh and connect to, should those people be allowed a head start because they are not as equipped as someone else with a better machine? 



    oh my word, like always, when you see my posting... guaranteed I am procrastinating and should be drawing... 
    Thanks for your insight on the artist side of this and after reading some of these posts would it best maximize your costs as well as appease the fans if you had an AP preorder in a limited time frame?  Maybe have the preorder option open for 3-5 days which can keep the limited nature of APs yet still avoid the craziness of the online sales crush at one particular time.  For the artists you could give yourself a cap on how many you would be willing to make BUT you will not have any leftover inventory plus you will maximize your profits because in today’s poster/art market you will surely sell many more than the short runs that are currently selling out immediately.  Love your work and have many of your prints on my wall today so I would love to see you get a bigger chunk of this flippers market on YOUR art that you deserve!
    I think he said that the number of AP prints he is allowed to sell is determined by the band.   Not the artist. 
    Ahhhhhhh just reread and saw that and it makes sense.  Never mind hahaha
    Knoxville '98, Greensboro 2000, Raleigh 2003, Nashville 2003, Asheville 2004, Bonnaroo 2008, Columbia 2008, EV The Ryman 1&2 2009, Alpine Valley 1&2 2011, Charlotte 2013, Columbia 2016, Lexington 2016, Bonnaroo 2016
  • bradklausenbradklausen Posts: 215
    JamesN said:
    Why not timed editions??
    If you have an off day, no excess...
    If you nail it, reap the rewards...
    Eads does timed, & there is still a robust
    secondary market for eBay flippers
    - As well as (Especially!) PJ Vault vinyls - Good luck trying to find ANY Vault for cost!! HAHA
    Renegotiate with the band(s) - Timed APs, 
    let the fans decide the run...Some people will
    undoubtedly miss out as per normal, but those
    astute enthusiasts won't have to pay outrageous
    prices for something they want - & so much more
    $$$ would end up with the well-deserving artist.

    timed editions for art prints works great... but for an event poster, they dont work
    the posters are printed months in advance in order to get shipped to the show on time, so you need a determined amount. 

    the whole idea of an event poster is something marking a date in time, an event, and you get it at the event. 

    If after the event people really love a poster and there is demand, you could do a timed edition after the show, but that would mean you would need to do another print run, so it would be a second edition... which many people would not care about, I am merely pointing out you would have to do another print run, and the idea again of the event poster is that it was something you had to be at to get, they only printed them for that day, time and place and they only made a limited amount.  So if you are printing second runs of show posters the argument could be made why not reprint old show posters that are fan favorite holy grails... and again, you could do that, and many folks would be stoked, but then it again is no longer what it was originally, which was a limited work of art created to mark this one event, this one day in time. 
  • jeffer96jeffer96 Posts: 135
    I think some of the flipping outrage is a little overblown. I think less than 20% hit the market, even with these prices they will go for. And subtract the ones that won’t sell and we are down to even less. 

    Battling bots would be nice if possible, but it isn’t that bad. Something limited in nature isn’t meant for everyone to have. This might sound harsh and not fun, but if you really want a poster, get to the line early and you will. I think it is pretty funny when people say I got in line an hour before it opened and are pissed when the miss out. 

    I do think they could bump up SE runs, but they obviously did that for Fenway last time and look at the shop now... 

    100 people will get the AP and 500+ more won’t get it no matter what anyways. 

    yeah... and Pj is an internationally famous band... so instead of lining up outside a brick and mortar store in your town, you are lining up to an online store that the whole world has access to. So you are not just competing for a spot in line with the people in your town interested in the thing you like, you are competing with everyone on the planet that likes the same thing you like. 

    I like to go snowboarding, and like most people, prefer to do that when it is not crowded... when I go on days when it is crowded I get all angry and mad at all these other people being there... and my lady often reminds me, you mean all these people who are here because they too love the same thing you love...?  Right!  how dare these other people also enjoy the thing I too enjoy!!!  how dare they try and do the exact same thing I am doing on the same day!! 

    as for battling bots... can you? is there software to determine if a customer using your site figured out some algorithm or some code to help them purchase things online? And if they can do that, is that wrong? Should people who are better at using computers and the internet be penalized because they have more knowledge then others? For having an interest and knowledge in how the internet works and how websites function and are code writers, I dont feel like those people should have to be punished for being better at something then someone else... does it give them an advantage, of course, but that is the benefit of having knowledge and skills, it gives you and advantage over those who do not have the same knowledge or skill..... should someone be penalized for just having a faster computer? for having a better internet connection then someone living in some rural setting where their internet speed is slower? If you have an old out of date computer like I do, and it takes longer then new computers for your webpages to refresh and connect to, should those people be allowed a head start because they are not as equipped as someone else with a better machine? 



    oh my word, like always, when you see my posting... guaranteed I am procrastinating and should be drawing... 
    Hey Brad - would a captcha work on your site?  I know what they are, but not the programming side of them.  A captcha is that “I am not a robot” checkbox you have to click after typing in a username and password on some sites.  Google is one that comes to mind.  Captcha stands for Completely Automated Public Turing test to tell Computers and Humans Apart per Wikipedia.  
Sign In or Register to comment.