Should the Drinking Age Be Lowered to 18 in the US? - Read My HuffPo Piece

Enkidu

Hey, I'm not hocking my book any more. (Whew.) I'm a Huffington Post blogger now. And I thought this would be an interesting subject for this group. Take a read, see what you think.

Thanks!

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ann-lewis-hamilton/rethinking-the-drinking-age_b_6941674.html

rr165892

Ann,Good article.

I absolutely feel the MLDA should be lowered.
My kids 20,22 and 24 all allegedly had or have fake Id for drinking.My concern is not drinking but drinking and driving ,and for the girls drinking and puttin themselves in a position to be taken advantage of.

We ask our young adults to sign up with selective service,we tell them they will be tried as adults if they get in trouble,they can now legally get into many establishments. Hypocritical to ask these young uns to kill or be killed for your country.Your old enough for that but not to drink.Kinda BS if you ask me.

Last-12-Exit

As long as you can die for your country, you should be able to legally drink a beer in your country.

RKCNDY

I think that if we are to lower the drinking age, then we need to have tougher DUI laws.

Another thing, since the legal drinking age is 21, and being from Washington state, we also have a marijuana law, no one under the age of 21 is to enter a marijuana retail store. They card you the instant you enter. So if it were lowered, then we would have to lower the 'legal marijuana consumption age'-yes, I realize people under 21 consume marijuana.

From what I understand, the age of 21 was set because a person's brain isn't fully formed until much later in life, so they were (supposedly) attempting to protect brain function. I understand in the EU that children are allowed in pubs, can have a drink with their parents when they are 16 (?), but cannot purchase for themselves until 18-someone from across the pond please feel free to correct me. If this is correct, then in that type of environment, drinking is not considered the same as it is here. Meaning, in the US it seems that drinking is viewed as party hard and drink until you get shit-faced falling down.

All in all, you can blame Reagan for setting the drinking age at 21: http://www.legalflip.com/Article.aspx?id=20

Enkidu

It's such a complicated issue. I posted the HuffPo piece on FB yesterday and someone said that when the drinking age in VA went from 18 to 21, drug use exploded.

ldent42

rr165892 said:

Ann,Good article.

I absolutely feel the MLDA should be lowered.
My kids 20,22 and 24 all allegedly had or have fake Id for drinking.My concern is not drinking but drinking and driving ,and for the girls drinking and puttin themselves in a position to be taken advantage of.

We ask our young adults to sign up with selective service,we tell them they will be tried as adults if they get in trouble,they can now legally get into many establishments. Hypocritical to ask these young uns to kill or be killed for your country.Your old enough for that but not to drink.Kinda BS if you ask me.

Seriously? seriously? Ugh.

I do agree with your entire second paragraph though. If you can vote, purchase tobacco products, be tried as an adult, and above all serve in the military at 18, there's no logical reason why you should not be allowed to legally purchase alcohol.

Indifference71

RKCNDY said:

I think that if we are to lower the drinking age, then we need to have tougher DUI laws.

How so? DUI laws seem pretty damn tough already. Pretty sure the limit is .08 in most states which is not a significant amount of alcohol

Last-12-Exit

RKCNDY said:

I think that if we are to lower the drinking age, then we need to have tougher DUI laws.

Another thing, since the legal drinking age is 21, and being from Washington state, we also have a marijuana law, no one under the age of 21 is to enter a marijuana retail store. They card you the instant you enter. So if it were lowered, then we would have to lower the 'legal marijuana consumption age'-yes, I realize people under 21 consume marijuana.

From what I understand, the age of 21 was set because a person's brain isn't fully formed until much later in life, so they were (supposedly) attempting to protect brain function. I understand in the EU that children are allowed in pubs, can have a drink with their parents when they are 16 (?), but cannot purchase for themselves until 18-someone from across the pond please feel free to correct me. If this is correct, then in that type of environment, drinking is not considered the same as it is here. Meaning, in the US it seems that drinking is viewed as party hard and drink until you get shit-faced falling down.

All in all, you can blame Reagan for setting the drinking age at 21: http://www.legalflip.com/Article.aspx?id=20

I think that is the big difference. Alcohol is treated as such a big deal. Most people that turn 21 can't wait to walk into a bar and legally drink. I don't have a problem with a 16 year old being able to drink a beer with a parent. That would make turning 21 not so big a deal.

Enkidu

Someone emailed me this yesterday after reading the post (a 19 year old) and I thought what she said was very interesting.

"I think that lowering it would be best but I also think it would take time for that to go into effect because it requires a cultural change. A lot of sociological theory is saying that drinking is less reckless in Europe because it's not viewed as such a taboo or risky behavior and thus the "thrill" factor is decreased - it's just something you do, not something deviant. It would take a while for that mentality to develop in the U.S. but I think lowering the drinking age is a good way to do it."

RKCNDY

Indifference71 said:

RKCNDY said:

I think that if we are to lower the drinking age, then we need to have tougher DUI laws.

How so? DUI laws seem pretty damn tough already. Pretty sure the limit is .08 in most states which is not a significant amount of alcohol

Well, apparently in my state, they are pretty lenient. A few years ago, some guy plowed through a family of 4, killed 2 people, and critically injuring a 12 day old baby and his mother. He had been arrested for DUI twice in the previous year, was ordered to install an ignition lock device but failed to, the state never checked up on him, so he was still able to drive drunk. Had the laws been tougher, perhaps those 2 people would still be alive today.

He was found to have 0.22, now he's serving 18 years-seems pretty lenient to me.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/10/03/mark-mullan-guilty-seattle-car-crash-dui_n_4038192.html

igotid88

A 16 year old can drink alcohol in a bar if they're with a parent? I think the drinking age should be raised to 40.

Who Princess

Indifference71 said:

RKCNDY said:

I think that if we are to lower the drinking age, then we need to have tougher DUI laws.

How so? DUI laws seem pretty damn tough already. Pretty sure the limit is .08 in most states which is not a significant amount of alcohol

The laws aren't that tough. It's expensive to get a DWI with the fines and court costs, but there are rarely any serious consequences unless the person injures or kills someone. If their license is suspended, they just drive without one. If they have a breathylizer on their car, they get someone else to blow into it. People often rack up numerous DWIs before they actually do any jail time.

PJSiren

Last-12-Exit said:

As long as you can die for your country, you should be able to legally drink a beer in your country.

I completely agree with this!

Enkidu

I agree about harsher DUI laws. If you read the HuffPo article, the ABC agents were staking out a bar (bars) at The Corner, this area across the street from UVa (walking distance to dorms and many apartments, btw), clearly looking for under-age kids who were drinking or trying to use fake i.d.s.

On St. Patrick's Day. Were there other ABC agents staking out other bars, bars where older people (older than 21) would be drinking (on St. Patrick's Day - people drinking???), people who had driven to a bar and not walked there? Who were getting shit-faced and planning to drive home?

Why go after ONLY kids? I don't get it. Go after drunk drivers.

Wobbie

bump in lieu of self promotion

oftenreading

ldent42 said:

rr165892 said:

Ann,Good article.

I absolutely feel the MLDA should be lowered.
My kids 20,22 and 24 all allegedly had or have fake Id for drinking.My concern is not drinking but drinking and driving ,and for the girls drinking and puttin themselves in a position to be taken advantage of.

We ask our young adults to sign up with selective service,we tell them they will be tried as adults if they get in trouble,they can now legally get into many establishments. Hypocritical to ask these young uns to kill or be killed for your country.Your old enough for that but not to drink.Kinda BS if you ask me.

Seriously? seriously? Ugh.

I do agree with your entire second paragraph though. If you can vote, purchase tobacco products, be tried as an adult, and above all serve in the military at 18, there's no logical reason why you should not be allowed to legally purchase alcohol.

I don't quite get your "ugh". Is it because rr only mentioned girls getting taken advantage of? Because I think as a parent of a teenager or young adult that is one of the biggies that you worry about - your kid drinking too much and getting into a situation where they can't make the decision that protects themselves. Whether that is not getting into a car with a drunk driver, or being able to leave when they're being pressured into sex that they don't want. Talking with your kids about staying sober enough to keep themselves safe, whether they are male or female, is not victim blaming.

RKCNDY

oftenreading said:

ldent42 said:

rr165892 said:

Ann,Good article.

I absolutely feel the MLDA should be lowered.
My kids 20,22 and 24 all allegedly had or have fake Id for drinking.My concern is not drinking but drinking and driving ,and for the girls drinking and puttin themselves in a position to be taken advantage of.

We ask our young adults to sign up with selective service,we tell them they will be tried as adults if they get in trouble,they can now legally get into many establishments. Hypocritical to ask these young uns to kill or be killed for your country.Your old enough for that but not to drink.Kinda BS if you ask me.

Seriously? seriously? Ugh.

I do agree with your entire second paragraph though. If you can vote, purchase tobacco products, be tried as an adult, and above all serve in the military at 18, there's no logical reason why you should not be allowed to legally purchase alcohol.

I don't quite get your "ugh". Is it because rr only mentioned girls getting taken advantage of? Because I think as a parent of a teenager or young adult that is one of the biggies that you worry about - your kid drinking too much and getting into a situation where they can't make the decision that protects themselves. Whether that is not getting into a car with a drunk driver, or being able to leave when they're being pressured into sex that they don't want. Talking with your kids about staying sober enough to keep themselves safe, whether they are male or female, is not victim blaming.

So again, we are putting the responsibility on the girls to fend off an over zealous male that wants to get in her pants? Why not teach these 'young responsible adult men' to respect the word 'no'. Or in general, to respect a young woman who has consumed too much alcohol and passed out by making sure she is well cared for until she is sober enough to go home?
We hear of several cases of rape by underage college kids who 'drank too much...oops' correct?
If these so called 'adults', are old enough to die for our country, they damn well know better than to take advantage of a person who has had too much to drink. Alcohol use for unacceptable behavior needs to quit being used as an excuse.
Take some fucking responsibility for your actions.

pjhawks

one problem with 18 is that there are 18 year olds still in high school. allowing 18 year olds to purchase beer and alcohol would make it so much easier for younger high school kids to get it. I might be in favor of something a little more strict. 18 to drink but can't legally purchase kegs or cases or alcohol. something like that might wor

19 is probably a better age to make it so almost all college age kids would be legal to drink,

Indifference71

Enkidu said:

Why go after ONLY kids? I don't get it. Go after drunk drivers.

Not sure where you live, but in Chicago and the surrounding suburbs you always hear about DUI checkpoints and road blocks to crack down on drunk drivers. And it's always around a holiday like 4th of July, Memorial Day, St. Pattys Day, etc... when there is plenty of drinking going on. So I wouldn't say law enforcement is only going after kids....but I guess maybe that depends where you live...

oftenreading

RKCNDY said:

oftenreading said:

ldent42 said:

rr165892 said:

Ann,Good article.

I absolutely feel the MLDA should be lowered.
My kids 20,22 and 24 all allegedly had or have fake Id for drinking.My concern is not drinking but drinking and driving ,and for the girls drinking and puttin themselves in a position to be taken advantage of.

We ask our young adults to sign up with selective service,we tell them they will be tried as adults if they get in trouble,they can now legally get into many establishments. Hypocritical to ask these young uns to kill or be killed for your country.Your old enough for that but not to drink.Kinda BS if you ask me.

Seriously? seriously? Ugh.

I do agree with your entire second paragraph though. If you can vote, purchase tobacco products, be tried as an adult, and above all serve in the military at 18, there's no logical reason why you should not be allowed to legally purchase alcohol.

I don't quite get your "ugh". Is it because rr only mentioned girls getting taken advantage of? Because I think as a parent of a teenager or young adult that is one of the biggies that you worry about - your kid drinking too much and getting into a situation where they can't make the decision that protects themselves. Whether that is not getting into a car with a drunk driver, or being able to leave when they're being pressured into sex that they don't want. Talking with your kids about staying sober enough to keep themselves safe, whether they are male or female, is not victim blaming.

So again, we are putting the responsibility on the girls to fend off an over zealous male that wants to get in her pants? Why not teach these 'young responsible adult men' to respect the word 'no'. Or in general, to respect a young woman who has consumed too much alcohol and passed out by making sure she is well cared for until she is sober enough to go home?
We hear of several cases of rape by underage college kids who 'drank too much...oops' correct?
If these so called 'adults', are old enough to die for our country, they damn well know better than to take advantage of a person who has had too much to drink. Alcohol use for unacceptable behavior needs to quit being used as an excuse.
Take some fucking responsibility for your actions.

It's not an either/or situation. Of course the responsibility is on men not to take advantage of intoxicated women. That doesn't take away from the fact that it is wise to keep yourself sober enough to be able to protect yourself or get yourself out of whatever bad situation might happen, male or female.

Enkidu

Indifference71 said:

Enkidu said:

Why go after ONLY kids? I don't get it. Go after drunk drivers.

Not sure where you live, but in Chicago and the surrounding suburbs you always hear about DUI checkpoints and road blocks to crack down on drunk drivers. And it's always around a holiday like 4th of July, Memorial Day, St. Pattys Day, etc... when there is plenty of drinking going on. So I wouldn't say law enforcement is only going after kids....but I guess maybe that depends where you live...

I don't live in Virginia any more, but my brother does and he says the ABC system is really a joke in how they concentrate on under-age drinking and not "over-age" drinking. He went to some music festival and saw lots of older drunk people really messed up and no ABC agents approached them. But they were all over young people.

In CA they have DUI checkpoints for everybody - you don't hear about UCLA or USC students being targeted the way they are at UVa.

dunkman

yes, the more americans hooked on booze can only be a good thing!

rr165892

oftenreading said:

ldent42 said:

rr165892 said:

Ann,Good article.

I absolutely feel the MLDA should be lowered.
My kids 20,22 and 24 all allegedly had or have fake Id for drinking.My concern is not drinking but drinking and driving ,and for the girls drinking and puttin themselves in a position to be taken advantage of.

We ask our young adults to sign up with selective service,we tell them they will be tried as adults if they get in trouble,they can now legally get into many establishments. Hypocritical to ask these young uns to kill or be killed for your country.Your old enough for that but not to drink.Kinda BS if you ask me.

Seriously? seriously? Ugh.

I do agree with your entire second paragraph though. If you can vote, purchase tobacco products, be tried as an adult, and above all serve in the military at 18, there's no logical reason why you should not be allowed to legally purchase alcohol.

I don't quite get your "ugh". Is it because rr only mentioned girls getting taken advantage of? Because I think as a parent of a teenager or young adult that is one of the biggies that you worry about - your kid drinking too much and getting into a situation where they can't make the decision that protects themselves. Whether that is not getting into a car with a drunk driver, or being able to leave when they're being pressured into sex that they don't want. Talking with your kids about staying sober enough to keep themselves safe, whether they are male or female, is not victim blaming.

Exactly!!!!

rr165892

RKCNDY said:

oftenreading said:

ldent42 said:

rr165892 said:

Ann,Good article.

I absolutely feel the MLDA should be lowered.
My kids 20,22 and 24 all allegedly had or have fake Id for drinking.My concern is not drinking but drinking and driving ,and for the girls drinking and puttin themselves in a position to be taken advantage of.

We ask our young adults to sign up with selective service,we tell them they will be tried as adults if they get in trouble,they can now legally get into many establishments. Hypocritical to ask these young uns to kill or be killed for your country.Your old enough for that but not to drink.Kinda BS if you ask me.

Seriously? seriously? Ugh.

I do agree with your entire second paragraph though. If you can vote, purchase tobacco products, be tried as an adult, and above all serve in the military at 18, there's no logical reason why you should not be allowed to legally purchase alcohol.

I don't quite get your "ugh". Is it because rr only mentioned girls getting taken advantage of? Because I think as a parent of a teenager or young adult that is one of the biggies that you worry about - your kid drinking too much and getting into a situation where they can't make the decision that protects themselves. Whether that is not getting into a car with a drunk driver, or being able to leave when they're being pressured into sex that they don't want. Talking with your kids about staying sober enough to keep themselves safe, whether they are male or female, is not victim blaming.

So again, we are putting the responsibility on the girls to fend off an over zealous male that wants to get in her pants? Why not teach these 'young responsible adult men' to respect the word 'no'. Or in general, to respect a young woman who has consumed too much alcohol and passed out by making sure she is well cared for until she is sober enough to go home?
We hear of several cases of rape by underage college kids who 'drank too much...oops' correct?
If these so called 'adults', are old enough to die for our country, they damn well know better than to take advantage of a person who has had too much to drink. Alcohol use for unacceptable behavior needs to quit being used as an excuse.
Take some fucking responsibility for your actions.

RC,I don't disagree with everything you said here.I think it can go hand in hand with my concern.My 2 youngest the 20-22 year olds are both girls and college students.So as a parent my worries run the gamut.We have raised them well,but my concerns are for the stuff they can't control.
I had one of girls get shit slipped into drink at a party.I also have met a very scared young man who brought my very intoxicated daughter home late one evening after he and his girlfriend watched over her at a high school party.She was late by 2 hours,we couldn't reach her and we were worried sick.But they made sure she was safe.Now the kids are adults and good people.
There are some good kids out there with the values you advocate for.
So this stuff is concerning

Last-12-Exit

I think the legal driving age should be 18.

ldent42

I don't wanna derail so I'll keep it brief. If you're a parent that's actually concerned about your offspring's well being then more power to you, I hope your kids know how lucky they are to have you. I don't think for a second you spoke with malice, however your use of language does in fact denote victim blaming, whether you meant it to or not. These days they call it a "micro aggression", usually people don't even know what they're saying is wrong. But it perpetuates the idea that the onus is on a woman to keep herself safe rather than on every one not to prey on others. There's significantly more pressure on girls to "not get raped" than there is on men to "not rape". In the context of alcohol use, you could say the concern is for women not to drink in bars lest they be attacked, but the same concern isn't as great for young men, whose physiology allows for them to be drugged the same as women.

Don't get me wrong, I don't live in a bubble. In reality, as a woman in a bar you DO have to take certain precautions, that shit is drilled into us from childhood. My "ugh" wasn't in response to your point, which I take to be "I don't want anything terrible to happen to my kid at all, and there's an increased chance something terrible could happen to her if she's been drinking, because that's just the reality we live in." But it was specifically in response to your phrasing, because the reality we live in ain't gonna change until we can get the field levelled, so that perception isn't "chicks get taken advantage of cuz they were drunk" but "asshat took advantage of someone cuz he's scum". The way that field gets levelled, is to rid ourselves as a society of the idea that a girl "puts herself" in the position to be attacked. It's a latent idea we all have that people ought to keep themselves safe, and any failure of that is to some degree, their own failure. It's amplified in crimes against women, but it's there for any crime, you can see it in every headline in the papers.
"Why didn't they have the two person in the cockpit rule?"
"Why didn't they have smoke detectors?"
"What were they doing walking through that area at night?"
"Why didn't she just leave him?"
Etc etc

I said I'd keep it brief. I lied. (sorry Enkidu)

Enkidu

Ident43, don't think you derailed the thread - the whole thing is insanely complicated. My husband and I know a family. Their daughter is a super crazy party girl in college on the east coast. (The parents admit that. Not happy about it and they used the expression "slutty party girl.") So the girl goes to a fraternity party, gets wasted, goes upstairs with a guy she knows. He's as drunk as she is. They're in bed, they're naked, she changes her mind.

Part of me feels sorry for the guy - maybe that makes me a bad female. However, when she says no, that should be it. Right? My husband and I both felt sort of sorry for the guy. More sorry for the girl because they had sex and she had said no.

Then the story takes an even worse turn. His roommate comes in, he has sex with the girl too. She knew the roommate, said no. He had sex with her anyway. (She didn't really remember most of this until the next morning when she woke up in the guy's bed.)

She reported this to the school and the school said - sorry, with your reputation, nothing is going to happen with these two guys. And it didn't. They didn't get kicked out of school or suspended or a reprimand. Nothing happened to them.

Pretty screwed up. How do we level the field? We can't ban alcohol, I don't think we can ban fraternities. But shouldn't those 2 guys have been held accountable?

(Damn, did I just derail my own thread?)

Wobbie

Wow! I'm an a__hole, have been known to be drunk, went to drunken parties, but would just never do anything like that.

Is it alcohol......or lack of common decency?

Enkidu

Some of is obviously a fraternity mindset and how think they can get away with anything. I have a friend from UVa who was in a super snobby frat (a Bush was with him, Neil maybe?) and although they didn't rape anyone (that my friend knows of), they were quite elitist. No blacks, no Jews, etc. My husband's fraternity, SAE (Sexual Assault Expected), was recently suspended at Stanford for sexual harassment issues.

But I have to say, I went to some great fraternity parties at UVa. I knew a lot of really great fraternity guys.

Wobbie

I've always thought fraternities could exhibit a bit of mob mentality.....and that's scary.

sorority mob mentality? bring it! (Sorry)

Last-12-Exit

I've never been a fan of people using the expression "I was so drunk" for their actions. I've been wasted before and I've never raped a woman, driven a car, beat my wife, or shot somebody. I always knew right from wrong. Men that rape women, even if they are drunk, know what no means. I'd be willing to bet that guy would have still raped that girl even if he was sober. Maybe not if she was. But it's still no excuse.