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Ident43, don't think you derailed the thread - the whole thing is insanely complicated. My husband and I know a family. Their daughter is a super crazy party girl in college on the east coast. (The parents admit that. Not happy about it and they used the expression "slutty party girl.") So the girl goes to a fraternity party, gets wasted, goes upstairs with a guy she knows. He's as drunk as she is. They're in bed, they're naked, she changes her mind.
Part of me feels sorry for the guy - maybe that makes me a bad female. However, when she says no, that should be it. Right? My husband and I both felt sort of sorry for the guy. More sorry for the girl because they had sex and she had said no.
Then the story takes an even worse turn. His roommate comes in, he has sex with the girl too. She knew the roommate, said no. He had sex with her anyway. (She didn't really remember most of this until the next morning when she woke up in the guy's bed.)
She reported this to the school and the school said - sorry, with your reputation, nothing is going to happen with these two guys. And it didn't. They didn't get kicked out of school or suspended or a reprimand. Nothing happened to them.
Pretty screwed up. How do we level the field? We can't ban alcohol, I don't think we can ban fraternities. But shouldn't those 2 guys have been held accountable?
(Damn, did I just derail my own thread?)
Yes they should if she really said no.Such a slippery slope of he said she said.
obviously there's no bulletproof answer to this, but the best I can figure is to tackle victim blaming, which is such a common staple in our lexicon. I think we gotta get it to the same level as racism or homophobia, in the sense that most people perceive those who hold those views as the small minded ignorant minority, flotsam from a (shameful) bygone era. Specifically in regard to the examples we discussed of girls getting raped while intoxicated, the only way that happens is over time, as in generations. Boys have to be taught how to not rape a girl, just like today girls are instructed how to not put themselves in a position to be raped. It might sound fucked up and gender biased but it's true. The "blurred line" of consent and the "not my responsibility" mentality that tends to come with privilege are problems that arise out of the sheer lack of respect those guys have for a girls autonomy. It might seem ridiculous, those two guys you mentioned might be otherwise complete upstanding citizens who send their mothers flowers on mothers day and idolize accomplished female professors in their uni, but because they are conditioned to think that a drunk girl's decisions are irrelevant, or meaningless, and because they're conditioned to think that if she went into bed with you she definitely wants it, in spite of what she might say while in the moment, shit like that happens and more often than not without any consequences for them, but nearly always with some level of trauma as a consequence for the girl. In this specific case the campus cops told her that her reputation was part of the case against her, but the boys' reputation is never something that came into question. That line of thinking needs to change.
I know I'm gonna regret posting this. I know it. I don't want to come off like I'm picking on anyone or nitpicking the subject, but even what rr said, "if she did say no" implies that there is/should be some doubt. That bit up there^^ about being conditioned to think about the situation a certain way? That's how we are conditioned to think that way, or rather further evidence of it. And I mean I know it's difficult cuz it does boil down to he said/she said a LOT in those type of situations but what a lot of people I think tend to forget is that there's no benefit whatsoever to a girl reporting that crime, as Enkidu's friend's kid found out the hard way. That why the vaaaaaaaast majority of sexual assaults are not reported. And the estimate is 1 in 4 women will be sexually assaulted once in her lifetime, but it increases once you become that 1 (I don't remember the figure, which I know invalidates my entire argument, but the point is once a woman's been assaulted her odds of being assaulted again increase.) I'm sorry I know I probably should've not pointed out the second microaggression but it illustrated my point too well not to. I think this thread is getting a wee bit AMT-y and yea I know if that's anyone's fault it's mine, so I'm gonna have to bow out here. I get too defensive about this stuff and I think I've said all I can in a constructive philosophical/academic manner.
First I'm glad this thread is here, we are all being respectful of everyone else (part of why I rarely post on the train). I'm very sorry to hear that one of Ann's daughters was slipped something in her drink, sad to think some one has to make sure the other person is at a disadvantage so they can make them do something they would otherwise probably not do. The daughter that had the young man bring her home was a very mature and responsible thing to do, and that is what we need to be teaching to young adults. If they are going to drink to an excess, please watch out for one another, take care of each other and make sure everybody is okay. When I was in HS, that's just the way it was, we'd laugh at the guy on his hands and knees ripping up the lawn, but once someone started crying or puking, someone stayed with that person to make sure they didn't lay on their back and pass out. Just like in the old days of the mosh put, 'if someone falls, you pick them up'. Not sure what happened, but it seems now some mosh pits turned into MMA rings, and people are in there to hurt others. With the girl that was unable to do anything about being taken advantage of, that's another case of victim blaming, and it needs to be changed. I can see both sides, but the boys not getting any sort of disciplinary action just gives them the green light to do it again to another girl. Seems that these days when an underage person has been caught drinking, there is no legal action being taken, so are we essentially already lowering the drinking age?
Post edited by RKCNDY on
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I hear ya, last.
Vegas 93, Vegas 98, Vegas 00 (10 year show), Vegas 03, Vegas 06
VIC 07
EV LA1 08
Seattle1 09, Seattle2 09, Salt Lake 09, LA4 09
Columbus 10
EV LA 11
Vancouver 11
Missoula 12
Portland 13, Spokane 13
St. Paul 14, Denver 14
Specifically in regard to the examples we discussed of girls getting raped while intoxicated, the only way that happens is over time, as in generations. Boys have to be taught how to not rape a girl, just like today girls are instructed how to not put themselves in a position to be raped. It might sound fucked up and gender biased but it's true. The "blurred line" of consent and the "not my responsibility" mentality that tends to come with privilege are problems that arise out of the sheer lack of respect those guys have for a girls autonomy. It might seem ridiculous, those two guys you mentioned might be otherwise complete upstanding citizens who send their mothers flowers on mothers day and idolize accomplished female professors in their uni, but because they are conditioned to think that a drunk girl's decisions are irrelevant, or meaningless, and because they're conditioned to think that if she went into bed with you she definitely wants it, in spite of what she might say while in the moment, shit like that happens and more often than not without any consequences for them, but nearly always with some level of trauma as a consequence for the girl. In this specific case the campus cops told her that her reputation was part of the case against her, but the boys' reputation is never something that came into question. That line of thinking needs to change.
I know I'm gonna regret posting this. I know it. I don't want to come off like I'm picking on anyone or nitpicking the subject, but even what rr said, "if she did say no" implies that there is/should be some doubt. That bit up there^^ about being conditioned to think about the situation a certain way? That's how we are conditioned to think that way, or rather further evidence of it. And I mean I know it's difficult cuz it does boil down to he said/she said a LOT in those type of situations but what a lot of people I think tend to forget is that there's no benefit whatsoever to a girl reporting that crime, as Enkidu's friend's kid found out the hard way. That why the vaaaaaaaast majority of sexual assaults are not reported. And the estimate is 1 in 4 women will be sexually assaulted once in her lifetime, but it increases once you become that 1 (I don't remember the figure, which I know invalidates my entire argument, but the point is once a woman's been assaulted her odds of being assaulted again increase.)
I'm sorry I know I probably should've not pointed out the second microaggression but it illustrated my point too well not to. I think this thread is getting a wee bit AMT-y and yea I know if that's anyone's fault it's mine, so I'm gonna have to bow out here. I get too defensive about this stuff and I think I've said all I can in a constructive philosophical/academic manner.
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I'm very sorry to hear that one of Ann's daughters was slipped something in her drink, sad to think some one has to make sure the other person is at a disadvantage so they can make them do something they would otherwise probably not do.
The daughter that had the young man bring her home was a very mature and responsible thing to do, and that is what we need to be teaching to young adults. If they are going to drink to an excess, please watch out for one another, take care of each other and make sure everybody is okay. When I was in HS, that's just the way it was, we'd laugh at the guy on his hands and knees ripping up the lawn, but once someone started crying or puking, someone stayed with that person to make sure they didn't lay on their back and pass out. Just like in the old days of the mosh put, 'if someone falls, you pick them up'. Not sure what happened, but it seems now some mosh pits turned into MMA rings, and people are in there to hurt others.
With the girl that was unable to do anything about being taken advantage of, that's another case of victim blaming, and it needs to be changed. I can see both sides, but the boys not getting any sort of disciplinary action just gives them the green light to do it again to another girl.
Seems that these days when an underage person has been caught drinking, there is no legal action being taken, so are we essentially already lowering the drinking age?
- Christopher McCandless