350 Killed in Garment Building Collapse

Thirty Bills UnpaidThirty Bills Unpaid Posts: 4,537
edited April 2013 in A Moving Train
Police in Bangladesh took six people into custody in connection with the collapse of a shoddily constructed building that killed at least 348 people, as rescue workers admitted Saturday that voices of survivors are getting weaker after four days of being pinned under the increasingly unstable rubble.

Still, in a boost for the rescuers, 29 survivors were pulled out Saturday, said army spokesman Shahinul Islam.

Most of the victims were crushed by massive blocks of concrete and mortar falling on them when the 8-story structure came down on Wednesday morning — a time many of the garment factories in the building were packed with workers.

It was the worst tragedy to hit Bangladesh's massive garment industry, and focused attention on the poor working conditions of the employees who toil for $38 a month to produce clothing for top international brands.


The entire story here: http://news.ca.msn.com/top-stories/bang ... ears-350-2

Food for thought:
Is it ethical to outsource labour to sell garments more cheaply knowing working conditions are not to code?
Is the practice necessary for some countries to remain subsistant?
Should we pay more for our clothing and have less clothing/consumption?
Does anybody even care?
Post edited by Unknown User on
"My brain's a good brain!"
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Comments

  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 10,832
    Thirty Bills Unpaid" said:


    Food for thought:
    1. Is it ethical to outsource labour to sell garments more cheaply knowing working conditions are not to code?
    2. Is the practice necessary for some countries to remain subsistant?
    3. Should we pay more for our clothing and have less clothing/consumption?
    4. Does anybody even care?
    1. No, it's not ethical at all but we do anyway. Not always, but very often. The only way for us as individuals to get around this is to spend more and buy U.S. made (hard to find) or buy used, if you can find suitable used clothing.

    2. Is it subsistence or dependence? All countries would be better off with more localized economies.

    3. Yes and yes- both!

    4. And yes, very much yes. It's sad that it takes a tragedy like the Bangladesh garment factory collapse to bring awareness to this kind of thing. It would be even more tragic if we don't learn from it and start aming changes.

    Adams Center, Missoula, MT 09/30/12
  • unsungunsung Posts: 5,039
    The American consumer only cares about the price, and is too ignorant to realize it means less jobs and poor quality.

    Globalization is sold as an improvement of the society as a whole. The reality is only those that have their palms greased and the corporations benefit.
  • chadwickchadwick up my assPosts: 19,330
    unsung" said:
    The American consumer only cares about the price, and is too ignorant to realize it means less jobs and poor quality.

    Globalization is sold as an improvement of the society as a whole. The reality is only those that have their palms greased and the corporations benefit.
    we agree on something.
    for poetry through the ceiling. ISBN: 1 4241 8840 7

    "Hear me, my chiefs!
    I am tired; my heart is
    sick and sad. From where
    the sun stands I will fight
    no more forever."

    Chief Joseph - Nez Perce
  • chadwickchadwick up my assPosts: 19,330
    edited April 2013
    brianlux" said:
    [quote="Thirty Bills Unpaid"]

    Food for thought:
    1. Is it ethical to outsource labour to sell garments more cheaply knowing working conditions are not to code?
    2. Is the practice necessary for some countries to remain subsistant?
    3. Should we pay more for our clothing and have less clothing/consumption?
    4. Does anybody even care?
    1. No, it's not ethical at all but we do anyway. Not always, but very often. The only way for us as individuals to get around this is to spend more and buy U.S. made (hard to find) or buy used, if you can find suitable used clothing.

    2. Is it subsistence or dependence? All countries would be better off with more localized economies.

    3. Yes and yes- both!

    4. And yes, very much yes. It's sad that it takes a tragedy like the Bangladesh garment factory collapse to bring awareness to this kind of thing. It would be even more tragic if we don't learn from it and start aming changes.[/quote]
    brianlux a kind soul.

    what a horrific event. very, very sad. I am appalled that they are paid pennies from major labels for working their asses off. this is slavery & it is extremely disrespectful, dishonest, cruel, & ignorant.

    one day you wealthy ass bastards ruling this planet will boil in your own pudding. most will not weep for your coldhearted asses as you are lit aflame from your own fatty asses. i love this part of the world & i am sad now.

    garment laborers are making $38 a month. can they make a car payment on $5? a house payment in Bangladesh is what? $12-$15 a month?

    wait. they live in clay huts, slums & nasty apartments stacked on top of each other like sardines? car payments? probably 90% of them own zero car

    all the while top end clothing lines are rolling in billions. i literally am about to vomit as i go even further into insanity. here in the united states many dislike clothes lines. fucking ignorant people.

    we gotta get out of this place, if its the last thing we ever do
    http://youtu.be/jxNEiZhpinY
    Post edited by chadwick on
    for poetry through the ceiling. ISBN: 1 4241 8840 7

    "Hear me, my chiefs!
    I am tired; my heart is
    sick and sad. From where
    the sun stands I will fight
    no more forever."

    Chief Joseph - Nez Perce
  • Godfather.Godfather. Posts: 8,931
    wow this sad.


    Godfather.
    it dosen't matter to me what a man dose for a living you understand..
    as long as his interest's don't conflict with mine.
  • chadwick" said:
    [quote="unsung"]The American consumer only cares about the price, and is too ignorant to realize it means less jobs and poor quality.

    Globalization is sold as an improvement of the society as a whole. The reality is only those that have their palms greased and the corporations benefit.
    we agree on something.[/quote]

    Agree as well.

    It's also the Canadian consumer as well, Unsung.
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • chadwickchadwick up my assPosts: 19,330
    what is the average work day in Bangladesh? seems like they are making around $0.10 an hour or so. that is ball busting, ridiculous & shameful.
    for poetry through the ceiling. ISBN: 1 4241 8840 7

    "Hear me, my chiefs!
    I am tired; my heart is
    sick and sad. From where
    the sun stands I will fight
    no more forever."

    Chief Joseph - Nez Perce
  • brianlux" said:
    [quote="Thirty Bills Unpaid"]

    Food for thought:
    1. Is it ethical to outsource labour to sell garments more cheaply knowing working conditions are not to code?
    2. Is the practice necessary for some countries to remain subsistant?
    3. Should we pay more for our clothing and have less clothing/consumption?
    4. Does anybody even care?
    1. No, it's not ethical at all but we do anyway. Not always, but very often. The only way for us as individuals to get around this is to spend more and buy U.S. made (hard to find) or buy used, if you can find suitable used clothing.

    2. Is it subsistence or dependence? All countries would be better off with more localized economies.

    3. Yes and yes- both!

    4. And yes, very much yes. It's sad that it takes a tragedy like the Bangladesh garment factory collapse to bring awareness to this kind of thing. It would be even more tragic if we don't learn from it and start aming changes.[/quote]

    To point number 2... if corporations pulled their businesses and moved to their home countries... where does that leave places such as Bangladesh? Some communities depend on their families earning $38 per month. It's not much, but it gets them by. Without this revenue... I'm really curious to know what the ramifications are?

    This situation is more complex than we might care to admit.
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • chadwickchadwick up my assPosts: 19,330
    again my day is shot & my morning swim will have me cursing wealthy fashion moguls mad as fuck
    http://youtu.be/VM7YgpmfE2Y
    "i wish i was a neutron bomb, for once I could go off" - eddie

    and that my friends is the fucking truth.

    thanks ed & the guys. beautiful tune
    for poetry through the ceiling. ISBN: 1 4241 8840 7

    "Hear me, my chiefs!
    I am tired; my heart is
    sick and sad. From where
    the sun stands I will fight
    no more forever."

    Chief Joseph - Nez Perce
  • chadwickchadwick up my assPosts: 19,330
    Thirty Bills Unpaid" said:

    To point number 2... if corporations pulled their businesses and moved to their home countries... where does that leave places such as Bangladesh? Some communities depend on their families earning $38 per month. It's not much, but it gets them by. Without this revenue... I'm really curious to know what the ramifications are?

    This situation is more complex than we might care to admit.
    it is complex. however, why do the top CEO's need make tens of millions (or more) annually?
    I say roast their asses on a turning spit
    for poetry through the ceiling. ISBN: 1 4241 8840 7

    "Hear me, my chiefs!
    I am tired; my heart is
    sick and sad. From where
    the sun stands I will fight
    no more forever."

    Chief Joseph - Nez Perce
  • Godfather.Godfather. Posts: 8,931
    Thirty Bills Unpaid, very good point.

    insted of calling out the American consumer we might start qoestioning the government in Bangladash and the enforcment of building codes....if they have any ?

    Godfather.
    it dosen't matter to me what a man dose for a living you understand..
    as long as his interest's don't conflict with mine.
  • chadwickchadwick up my assPosts: 19,330
    paul newman fed countless human beings & took great care of people & he is now dead & still his food products are feeding millions & charities are flush because mr. paul newman is a class act human being. i have a huge problem with greed

    a greedy businessman is just about the equivalent of a child predator in my book. both are severe scumbags taking major advantage of their victims & they relish in this
    for poetry through the ceiling. ISBN: 1 4241 8840 7

    "Hear me, my chiefs!
    I am tired; my heart is
    sick and sad. From where
    the sun stands I will fight
    no more forever."

    Chief Joseph - Nez Perce
  • I have read of several old ships that have been built with deadly asbestos. From America... the owners tow the ships to Poland (and other countries) to remove the asbestos at a much cheaper price. There's a reason why the costs are so much lower in some of these countries. Again... unethical conduct in the interest of saving money.

    I'll try to find a link to one particular case we studied at school. Shameful.
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 10,832
    Thirty Bills Unpaid" said:
    [quote="brianlux"][quote="Thirty Bills Unpaid"]

    Food for thought:
    1. Is it ethical to outsource labour to sell garments more cheaply knowing working conditions are not to code?
    2. Is the practice necessary for some countries to remain subsistant?
    3. Should we pay more for our clothing and have less clothing/consumption?
    4. Does anybody even care?
    1. No, it's not ethical at all but we do anyway. Not always, but very often. The only way for us as individuals to get around this is to spend more and buy U.S. made (hard to find) or buy used, if you can find suitable used clothing.

    2. Is it subsistence or dependence? All countries would be better off with more localized economies.

    3. Yes and yes- both!

    4. And yes, very much yes. It's sad that it takes a tragedy like the Bangladesh garment factory collapse to bring awareness to this kind of thing. It would be even more tragic if we don't learn from it and start aming changes.[/quote]

    To point number 2... if corporations pulled their businesses and moved to their home countries... where does that leave places such as Bangladesh? Some communities depend on their families earning $38 per month. It's not much, but it gets them by. Without this revenue... I'm really curious to know what the ramifications are?

    This situation is more complex than we might care to admit.[/quote]

    It's true, there is no easy answer here. My point number 2 can only exist and a localized world. As long as we live in a world of cheap energy there will be foreign commerce, a global economy. In a post oil world we will very likely all have to learn local economy again but that might not be for some time so my comment is currently irrelevant- but for how long? I'm not sure.

    But the fact remains that we do live in a global economy and should demand greater equity and fairness. Yes, pay more for clothing. Who among us cannot easily afford more clothes than we need?

    Adams Center, Missoula, MT 09/30/12
  • chadwickchadwick up my assPosts: 19,330
    Thirty Bills Unpaid" said:
    I have read of several old ships that have been built with deadly asbestos. From America... the owners tow the ships to Poland (and other countries) to remove the asbestos at a much cheaper price. There's a reason why the costs are so much lower in some of these countries. Again... unethical conduct in the interest of saving money.

    I'll try to find a link to one particular case we studied at school. Shameful.
    happens all day long. the ship scrapping business is huge. again ship the ship to somewhere far off, pay them a fraction of a decent salary to salvage the beast. the unethical treatment of a fellow human being is all it is
    for poetry through the ceiling. ISBN: 1 4241 8840 7

    "Hear me, my chiefs!
    I am tired; my heart is
    sick and sad. From where
    the sun stands I will fight
    no more forever."

    Chief Joseph - Nez Perce
  • Godfather." said:
    Thirty Bills Unpaid, very good point.

    insted of calling out the American consumer we might start qoestioning the government in Bangladash and the enforcment of building codes....if they have any ?

    Godfather.
    They do have codes, but enforcement is hardly ever practiced. The story indicated there were some people detained as a result of the shoddy building- so accountability is there (although in this case it is after the fact).

    Does the government look at the situation and surmise that the sweat shops are a necessary evil? Does it think that without the opportunity for labour... the already poverty stricken country becomes inundated with hunger and homelessness?
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • chadwick" said:
    [quote="Thirty Bills Unpaid"]I have read of several old ships that have been built with deadly asbestos. From America... the owners tow the ships to Poland (and other countries) to remove the asbestos at a much cheaper price. There's a reason why the costs are so much lower in some of these countries. Again... unethical conduct in the interest of saving money.

    I'll try to find a link to one particular case we studied at school. Shameful.
    happens all day long. the ship scrapping business is huge. again ship the ship to somewhere far off, pay them a fraction of a decent salary to salvage the beast. the unethical treatment of a fellow human being is all it is[/quote]

    Essentially turning a blind eye to the harm inflicted upon the worker. It reflects a callousness that I really wish humanity did not possess, but at the end of the day... sorry to say it... we (the privileged) are all partly to blame:

    I'll never forget my 5 star all-inclusive vacation for 1 star pricing at Punta Cana. Our party lived like kings and queens for the better part of two weeks. The hotel where we stayed was fit for royalty. We paid hardly anything because the workers there were paid very little: both the workers who built and maintained the grounds as well as the service staff. I did my best to tip and smile and be thankful... but in the end, I knew that I had become part of the brutal cycle that might never allow for these people to have a better life than the one they have now.

    I don't know if it was good that I was there or bad? It's a real quagmire.
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • unsungunsung Posts: 5,039
    Godfather." said:
    Thirty Bills Unpaid, very good point.

    insted of calling out the American consumer we might start qoestioning the government in Bangladash and the enforcment of building codes....if they have any ?

    Godfather.

    The consumer has the ultimate power. The consumer is to blame. The rest are simple cogs in the wheel, the consumer drives the bus.
  • unsungunsung Posts: 5,039
    Thirty Bills Unpaid" said:
    [quote="chadwick"][quote="Thirty Bills Unpaid"]I have read of several old ships that have been built with deadly asbestos. From America... the owners tow the ships to Poland (and other countries) to remove the asbestos at a much cheaper price. There's a reason why the costs are so much lower in some of these countries. Again... unethical conduct in the interest of saving money.

    I'll try to find a link to one particular case we studied at school. Shameful.
    happens all day long. the ship scrapping business is huge. again ship the ship to somewhere far off, pay them a fraction of a decent salary to salvage the beast. the unethical treatment of a fellow human being is all it is[/quote]

    Essentially turning a blind eye to the harm inflicted upon the worker. It reflects a callousness that I really wish humanity did not possess, but at the end of the day... sorry to say it... we (the privileged) are all partly to blame:

    I'll never forget my 5 star all-inclusive vacation for 1 star pricing at Punta Cana. Our party lived like kings and queens for the better part of two weeks. The hotel where we stayed was fit for royalty. We paid hardly anything because the workers there were paid very little: both the workers who built and maintained the grounds as well as the service staff. I did my best to tip and smile and be thankful... but in the end, I knew that I had become part of the brutal cycle that might never allow for these people to have a better life than the one they have now.

    I don't know if it was good that I was there or bad? It's a real quagmire.[/quote]



    I stayed in Tallinn, Estonia for two weeks a few years back. Through conversation with some locals I found that I was paying more for each night in the hotel than a staff member made in a month. After that I tipped at a much higher percentage. That's about the best way to help. On another trip, I did a tour of Chernobyl and the guide was ex-military and cool as fuck. He let me lag behind so I could get photos without people in them. I tipped him at the end and he gave me his contact info for better pictures, gave me the official trip itinerary that had the checkpoint stamps on them, and was elated that he got the equivalent of $20.
  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 10,832
    Great discussion here, everyone.

    This brings up the difficult question of how do we end poverty in the world when, as the Earth Institute at Columbia University states, "more than one billion people--one-sixth of the world's population--live in extreme poverty on less than $1 a day"?

    Adams Center, Missoula, MT 09/30/12
  • unsung" said:

    I stayed in Tallinn, Estonia for two weeks a few years back. Through conversation with some locals I found that I was paying more for each night in the hotel than a staff member made in a month. After that I tipped at a much higher percentage. That's about the best way to help. On another trip, I did a tour of Chernobyl and the guide was ex-military and cool as fuck. He let me lag behind so I could get photos without people in them. I tipped him at the end and he gave me his contact info for better pictures, gave me the official trip itinerary that had the checkpoint stamps on them, and was elated that he got the equivalent of $20.
    You obviously did this before seeing Chernobyl Diaries :lol:

    But to your scenarios- not unlike mine. It's good to know you were aware of your 'privileged position'. I think at a minimum... this is what needs to occur. I can't recall how many times spoiled patrons behaved poorly because their mojito was taking too long... or, laughably, the workers didn't speak English. :roll:
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • unsungunsung Posts: 5,039
    I really try to blend in when I travel, but no matter what they can tell. I used a porta-john in St. Petersburg and was charged more because she knew I wasn't Russian. Can you imagine that happening in the US in 2013? Lawsuit!

    Anyway there's no point in traveling and proving the assumption that everyone from the US is an a-hole. I work to prove otherwise.
  • unsungunsung Posts: 5,039
    Oh yeah, terrible movie. I meant to watch the credits to see where it was filmed but it wasn't shot there. The view of the plant made it seem like it was 300' away, in reality it's over a mile from Pripyat. Nothing matched except for the scene that they are in the building with the bear.
  • unsungunsung Posts: 5,039
    brianlux" said:
    Great discussion here, everyone.

    This brings up the difficult question of how do we end poverty in the world when, as the Earth Institute at Columbia University states, "more than one billion people--one-sixth of the world's population--live in extreme poverty on less than $1 a day"?

    I'll throw in my Ron Paul thought on this. Paraphrasing, foreign aid only takes from the poor of a donating country to give to the elite of the receiving country. Warlords/politicians/corruption always gets their cut first. How do we get help directly to those that need it? I have no idea.
  • Godfather.Godfather. Posts: 8,931
    unsung" said:
    [quote="Godfather."]Thirty Bills Unpaid, very good point.

    insted of calling out the American consumer we might start qoestioning the government in Bangladash and the enforcment of building codes....if they have any ?

    Godfather.

    The consumer has the ultimate power. The consumer is to blame. The rest are simple cogs in the wheel, the consumer drives the bus.[/quote]

    I don't know about bame, all consumers world wide for the most part buy as they can afford so you could also blame world business for feeding the machine that is outsourcing.

    Godfather.
    it dosen't matter to me what a man dose for a living you understand..
    as long as his interest's don't conflict with mine.
  • unsungunsung Posts: 5,039
    Why do you think outsourcing exists?
  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 10,832
    unsung" said:
    [quote="brianlux"]Great discussion here, everyone.

    This brings up the difficult question of how do we end poverty in the world when, as the Earth Institute at Columbia University states, "more than one billion people--one-sixth of the world's population--live in extreme poverty on less than $1 a day"?

    I'll throw in my Ron Paul thought on this. Paraphrasing, foreign aid only takes from the poor of a donating country to give to the elite of the receiving country. Warlords/politicians/corruption always gets their cut first. How do we get help directly to those that need it? I have no idea.[/quote]

    Do you believe that is what these people do?:

    http://www.heifer.org/

    http://www.doctorswithoutborders.org/

    Adams Center, Missoula, MT 09/30/12
  • unsungunsung Posts: 5,039
    No.

    I was speaking about direct government to government transactions. I should have clarified. Those organizations have many private donors and are not funded by forced confiscation. Well, at least as far as I know.

    Private organizations are probably the best and most effective way to make a difference.
  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 10,832
    unsung" said:
    No.

    I was speaking about direct government to government transactions. I should have clarified. Those organizations have many private donors and are not funded by forced confiscation. Well, at least as far as I know.

    Private organizations are probably the best and most effective way to make a difference.
    Yeah, I think that is true as well.

    Adams Center, Missoula, MT 09/30/12
  • Godfather.Godfather. Posts: 8,931
    unsung" said:
    Why do you think outsourcing exists?

    compition for the consumers money... leaving the consumer with little choice and the other reason is that in the corprate world world dommance is power(yes I know this for fact)
    believe me I understand what you are saying and in some areas agree with you but.....we the consumer buy what we can afford or find,when was the last time you tried to buy an Americam made T.V or stereo ?
    if you want American made products you really have to do some resurch or read the fine print on the lables.

    outsourcing is a tool of profit for corprations, investers are the bottom line, a corperation is fed a large portion of it's money from investers and these investers want a return on their money or else they invest elsewhere so the quick minded CEO,presidents and so on of these large corp's realize that building their products in say Poland or china where labor cost,taxes,property perches's and enviormental control are much cheaper not to mention the fact that they have the opertunity to control another piece of the business map, once a corp has built enormis wealth the game then moves to power more so than money almost, ya see there is so much more to doing business than what the customer wants the customer will always be there , the power is the real game and these small business like the one in bangladash only compete for the opertunity to sell their goods to the larger corp's that really run the wheels of business and these larg corps don't give a flying fuck if their building colapses or not they just want their product and if the structer colapeses they will just move on to another supplier, the consumer will never know the differance.

    Godfather.
    it dosen't matter to me what a man dose for a living you understand..
    as long as his interest's don't conflict with mine.
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