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America's voting system is a disgrace
dignin
Posts: 9,303
Good luck my American friends. Vote early, vote often.
http://www.cnn.com/2012/11/05/opinion/f ... ?hpt=hp_c2
America's voting system is a disgrace
By David Frum, CNN Contributor
updated 2:49 PM EST, Mon November 5, 2012
Washington (CNN) -- When the polls close in most other democracies, the results are known almost instantly. Ballots are usually counted accurately and rapidly, and nobody disputes the result. Complaints of voter fraud are rare; complaints of voter suppression are rarer still.
The kind of battle we are seeing in Florida -- where Democrats and Republicans will go to court over whether early voting should span 14 days or eight -- simply does not happen in Germany, Canada, Britain or France. The ballot uncertainty that convulsed the nation after Florida's vote in 2000 could not happen in Mexico or Brazil.
Almost everywhere else, elections are run by impartial voting agencies. In France, elections are the responsibility of the Ministry of the Interior, which establishes places and hours of voting, prints ballots (France still uses paper) and counts the votes. In Germany, an independent federal returning officer oversees a complex state and federal voting system. In Canada, federal elections are managed by a specialized agency, Elections Canada. Mexico, emerging from a sad history of electoral manipulation, created in the 1990s a respected independent agency, the Federal Electoral Institute. Brazil has nationwide electronic voting, producing instantaneous, uncontested results.
No voting system is perfect. Britain has faced allegations of chronic fraud in absentee balloting. As I write, Lithuanian politics are convulsed by allegations of vote buying by one of its political parties.
But here's what doesn't happen in other democracies:
Politicians of one party do not set voting schedules to favor their side and harm the other. Politicians do not move around voting places to gain advantages for themselves or to disadvantage their opponents. In fact, in almost no other country do politicians have any say in the administration of elections at all.
Here's a story from the 2000 election.
Like many old cities, St. Louis has not invested in modern voting equipment. Voting delays are notorious. At the scheduled poll-closing time, voters were still lined up throughout the city. Al Gore's campaign, desperate to win the state, asked a judge to extend voting for three more hours in the heavily Democratic city -- but only in the city. A state judge agreed. Republicans appealed, the state judge was overruled, and the polls were closed after remaining open a total of 45 additional minutes beyond the legal closing time.
What is inspiring you to vote? Online voting: The future of elections? Ohio prepares for election Can e-voting machines be hacked?
Republicans won Missouri's 11 electoral votes by a margin of 78,786 out of the almost 2.4 million cast.
Think about what's incredible here:
Lines were lengthy in St. Louis City because in the United States, almost uniquely, local governments choose how voting is cast and counted. People who live in localities with less capable governments, such as St. Louis, will face greater delay and difficulty in casting their vote.
When local Democratic officials saw themselves disadvantaged by the existing rules, they appealed to a judge for special treatment for its (likely) voters -- and only for those voters. (Good news: In Missouri, circuit judges are appointed by the governor and then confirmed in office by nonpartisan vote. In many states, however, judges are themselves elected in partisan elections.)
The other party demanded that the existing rules be upheld, and the case was litigated on the fly, ending in a weird compromise that only failed to become a national scandal because the events in Florida were so much more dramatic.
In any other democracy, voters nationwide would have cast their votes on the same kind of balloting equipment, subject to the same rules.
The parties would have had a minimal role in supervising the election, and certainly would not have been allowed to ask for rule changes as the vote occurred.
The voting would have been overseen by a national election commission, not by local judges, who might be nonpartisan -- but who very well might not.
Americans worry more about voter fraud than do voters in other countries, because they are the only country without a reliable system of national identification.
In no other country, including federal systems such as Germany, Canada and Australia, does the citizen's opportunity to vote depend on the affluence and competence of his or her local government.
In every other democracy, the vote is the means by which the people choose between the competing political parties -- not one more weapon by which the parties compete.
The United States is an exceptional nation, but it is not always exceptional for good. The American voting system too is an exception: It is the most error-prone, the most susceptible to fraud, the most vulnerable to unfairness and one of the least technologically sophisticated on earth. After the 2000 fiasco, Americans resolved to do better. Isn't it past time to make good on that resolution?
http://www.cnn.com/2012/11/05/opinion/f ... ?hpt=hp_c2
America's voting system is a disgrace
By David Frum, CNN Contributor
updated 2:49 PM EST, Mon November 5, 2012
Washington (CNN) -- When the polls close in most other democracies, the results are known almost instantly. Ballots are usually counted accurately and rapidly, and nobody disputes the result. Complaints of voter fraud are rare; complaints of voter suppression are rarer still.
The kind of battle we are seeing in Florida -- where Democrats and Republicans will go to court over whether early voting should span 14 days or eight -- simply does not happen in Germany, Canada, Britain or France. The ballot uncertainty that convulsed the nation after Florida's vote in 2000 could not happen in Mexico or Brazil.
Almost everywhere else, elections are run by impartial voting agencies. In France, elections are the responsibility of the Ministry of the Interior, which establishes places and hours of voting, prints ballots (France still uses paper) and counts the votes. In Germany, an independent federal returning officer oversees a complex state and federal voting system. In Canada, federal elections are managed by a specialized agency, Elections Canada. Mexico, emerging from a sad history of electoral manipulation, created in the 1990s a respected independent agency, the Federal Electoral Institute. Brazil has nationwide electronic voting, producing instantaneous, uncontested results.
No voting system is perfect. Britain has faced allegations of chronic fraud in absentee balloting. As I write, Lithuanian politics are convulsed by allegations of vote buying by one of its political parties.
But here's what doesn't happen in other democracies:
Politicians of one party do not set voting schedules to favor their side and harm the other. Politicians do not move around voting places to gain advantages for themselves or to disadvantage their opponents. In fact, in almost no other country do politicians have any say in the administration of elections at all.
Here's a story from the 2000 election.
Like many old cities, St. Louis has not invested in modern voting equipment. Voting delays are notorious. At the scheduled poll-closing time, voters were still lined up throughout the city. Al Gore's campaign, desperate to win the state, asked a judge to extend voting for three more hours in the heavily Democratic city -- but only in the city. A state judge agreed. Republicans appealed, the state judge was overruled, and the polls were closed after remaining open a total of 45 additional minutes beyond the legal closing time.
What is inspiring you to vote? Online voting: The future of elections? Ohio prepares for election Can e-voting machines be hacked?
Republicans won Missouri's 11 electoral votes by a margin of 78,786 out of the almost 2.4 million cast.
Think about what's incredible here:
Lines were lengthy in St. Louis City because in the United States, almost uniquely, local governments choose how voting is cast and counted. People who live in localities with less capable governments, such as St. Louis, will face greater delay and difficulty in casting their vote.
When local Democratic officials saw themselves disadvantaged by the existing rules, they appealed to a judge for special treatment for its (likely) voters -- and only for those voters. (Good news: In Missouri, circuit judges are appointed by the governor and then confirmed in office by nonpartisan vote. In many states, however, judges are themselves elected in partisan elections.)
The other party demanded that the existing rules be upheld, and the case was litigated on the fly, ending in a weird compromise that only failed to become a national scandal because the events in Florida were so much more dramatic.
In any other democracy, voters nationwide would have cast their votes on the same kind of balloting equipment, subject to the same rules.
The parties would have had a minimal role in supervising the election, and certainly would not have been allowed to ask for rule changes as the vote occurred.
The voting would have been overseen by a national election commission, not by local judges, who might be nonpartisan -- but who very well might not.
Americans worry more about voter fraud than do voters in other countries, because they are the only country without a reliable system of national identification.
In no other country, including federal systems such as Germany, Canada and Australia, does the citizen's opportunity to vote depend on the affluence and competence of his or her local government.
In every other democracy, the vote is the means by which the people choose between the competing political parties -- not one more weapon by which the parties compete.
The United States is an exceptional nation, but it is not always exceptional for good. The American voting system too is an exception: It is the most error-prone, the most susceptible to fraud, the most vulnerable to unfairness and one of the least technologically sophisticated on earth. After the 2000 fiasco, Americans resolved to do better. Isn't it past time to make good on that resolution?
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Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
it really is a shit show south of the border, isn't it? Up here I have never once been confused on where or when I can vote and when the polling hours are. it's like it's run by 10 year olds.
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
Sha la la la i'm in love with a jersey girl
I love you forever and forever
Adel 03 Melb 1 03 LA 2 06 Santa Barbara 06 Gorge 1 06 Gorge 2 06 Adel 1 06 Adel 2 06 Camden 1 08 Camden 2 08 Washington DC 08 Hartford 08
the hundredth meridian. where the great plains begin.
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
Exactly, no machines.....just the good ol paper ballot, and many many polls. In all my years of voting (provincial, federal or local) I have waited in line once, and that was for early voting.
The great white north, Alberta, Canada.
America's voting system is screwy, for sure, and in need of a major overhaul. Funny how different states and counties have different procedures, machines, regulations, etc... but a 7-11 in Maine and a 7-11 in Oklahoma both have the exact same Slurpee's
On a serious note: I don't know where dignin is from as 81 inquired, but I do know that David Frum is from Canada. The one small challenge I have with a point in Frums piece is this: "...simply does not happen in Germany, Canada, Britain or France..."
a) I don't know anyone rushing out of America personally to go move there
b) the winners of those elections don't go on to become one of (if not the single) most prominent and preeminent human beings on the face of Planet Earth.
7.9.03~9.28.04~10.1.05~5.12.06~5.13.06~5.27.06~5.28.06
8.5.08(EV)~10.9.09~5.21.10~6.20.11(EV)~7.5.11(EV)~7.9.11(EV)
11.21.13~8.27.16(EV)~11.14.16(TOTD)~4.13.20~9.27.20~9.26.21~10.2.21
2.15.22 (EV)~2.25.22 (EV)~2.27.22 (EV)~5.3.22~5.7.22~9.17.24~9.29.24
in and out in 5 minutes.
But, I will say that I have been voting for 18 years and never had a hard time finding where to vote and getting my voting done. That doesn;t mean the system doesn't need changed, but it does say something. Oh, and I've voted in a big city, smaller city, and now a university "city" which is really a large town.
I don't think Frum was trying to get into a pissing match about who has the better country, I think he's just trying to say that voting in the states has become a political gong show when it should be simple. I hear of the problems voting south of the border and I don't get it. It is so pain free to vote here in Canada. I know the title of his article and my post is a little inflammatory......but that gets you to read it.....I hope.
most times it's been in and out in under 15 minutes, most times including today, 5 minutes.
just curious, where are you from?
grew up in small town rural ohio, currently live in chicagoland.
I can't really tell what any of this has to do with the voting issues in the States.
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
Thanks for contributing. I am hopeful the USA ratifies the Constitution or at least adds an amendment as the federal election system is broken, quite frankly. There's got to be a better way...
7.9.03~9.28.04~10.1.05~5.12.06~5.13.06~5.27.06~5.28.06
8.5.08(EV)~10.9.09~5.21.10~6.20.11(EV)~7.5.11(EV)~7.9.11(EV)
11.21.13~8.27.16(EV)~11.14.16(TOTD)~4.13.20~9.27.20~9.26.21~10.2.21
2.15.22 (EV)~2.25.22 (EV)~2.27.22 (EV)~5.3.22~5.7.22~9.17.24~9.29.24
Cool. The problems I have been reading about seem to happen in battle ground states (counties) with largely non white citizens. Seems largely politically motivated.
bear in mind the source http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26315908/#49688734
:thumbup:
My point was there shouldn't really be a comparison to those countries or their systems (even if most cases they are superior) because Americans aren't fleeing over there and those elected leaders don't carry the same worldwide influence as the President of the US.
Not being inflammatory or rude. Why compare it when the US isn't trying to emulate or do what those countries do...
Sorry it wasn't clear.
7.9.03~9.28.04~10.1.05~5.12.06~5.13.06~5.27.06~5.28.06
8.5.08(EV)~10.9.09~5.21.10~6.20.11(EV)~7.5.11(EV)~7.9.11(EV)
11.21.13~8.27.16(EV)~11.14.16(TOTD)~4.13.20~9.27.20~9.26.21~10.2.21
2.15.22 (EV)~2.25.22 (EV)~2.27.22 (EV)~5.3.22~5.7.22~9.17.24~9.29.24
Which is why- as you ahave alluded to yourself- the US should not have a 'screwy voting system'. If the winner is about to become one of the most prominent human beings on the planet... shouldn't the methodology to determine who this person is be as close to flawless as possible?
And, being slightly petty in light of what you have also said... it's not exactly as if people from Germany, Canada, Britain or France are rushing to move to America. Your comment kind of suggested that other countries are inferior. Some, including myself, might beg to differ. I'll give you your military might- you could kick Canada's ass with a fraction of your might... but I'm not so sure I'd concede anything else at this point in time.
great :fp:
No kidding, I'll go find a Fox new report to show the exact opposite!!!
shitty that this has to happen
I honestly am not suggesting superiority on the US part. I am sorry if that is how it is coming across, honestly. Wow. Plus the main point of Mr. Frum's article is, and I quote: Politicians of one party do not set voting schedules to favor their side and harm the other. Politicians do not move around voting places to gain advantages for themselves or to disadvantage their opponents. In fact, in almost no other country do politicians have any say in the administration of elections at all.
It is broken. It is screwy. We need a fix. My point comparing the other countries isn't USA is better, its just nobody I've ever talked to, worked with, conversed with is rushing to those countries because their voting methods are so superior. Again, sorry it isn't clear.
This is not an "us vs them" thing. I'm not being antagonistic. Please...calm down. Really. The US system is flawed.
happy election day
7.9.03~9.28.04~10.1.05~5.12.06~5.13.06~5.27.06~5.28.06
8.5.08(EV)~10.9.09~5.21.10~6.20.11(EV)~7.5.11(EV)~7.9.11(EV)
11.21.13~8.27.16(EV)~11.14.16(TOTD)~4.13.20~9.27.20~9.26.21~10.2.21
2.15.22 (EV)~2.25.22 (EV)~2.27.22 (EV)~5.3.22~5.7.22~9.17.24~9.29.24
anybody suprised
Doesn't change the fact that there are huge lines of minorities waiting in line to vote for hours.
You got to the heart of it right there.
I'm calm. I misunderstood what you where getting at. It's all good.
In all seriousness... I know all my neighbours to the south are so optimistic today. Lots of dreams and hopes that their country can begin to make its way up that slope it began sliding down over a decade ago.
My hope is that regardless of the outcome... US citizens 'accept' the democratic selection regardless of what might have been hoped for and begin to do what is necessary to find commonality and move forward.
it goes well beyond that tho ... there are way more serious question marks in terms of the integrity of the system ... i just find is absurd that a country that preaches democracy more than any other has an easily manipulated democratic voting system ... and to me it points to the fact that is how the powers that be want it ...