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The billionth AMT thread about GUN CONTROL.
kenny olav
Posts: 3,319
Some thoughts I thought I'd share today, which were inspired by the recent shootings in Seattle, but also by the countless shootings that happen every day in the USA.
My opinion on gun control has been one I have held for as long as I have been thinking about the issue. I think it should be stricter... MUCH stricter. It seriously pains me... I mean I feel actual physical pain... when people are okay with the way things are with guns.
I've thankfully never experienced the tragic loss of someone close to me by gunshot. During most of my 36 years on this planet, I've lived in suburban towns south of Boston. I hear of shootings now and then in parts of the city, but it doesn't happen much out here in the woods. However, I have no reason to feel safe anywhere. There is a constant stream of stories from across the USA of people who were just going about their lives, and were then killed by a gunshot.
Here's a recent story that really got to me: http://journalstar.com/news/national/ra ... 2ee36.html A grandfather driving on the highway is gunned down by thieves who were probably pretending to be police... and they may never be caught... and it was far too easy for them to do what they did... because of guns, and no other reason.
The only time I ever held a gun was when I was 12 years old. A friend's father owned a few guns and less us kids (illegally) fire a small shotgun into the woods. Never told my parents about that one. Anyway, I didn't think it was cool. It scared the fuck out of me. It was too intense - the thought of having that much power. I do not trust anyone with that power. Why should I?
I don't think the 2nd Amendment to the U.S. Constitution guarantees an individual right to bear arms. It was written for well-organized militias (state militias, which later became the National Guard). The Supreme Court was wrong in its 5-4 decision in DC vs Heller (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DC_vs._Heller). Scalia and Thomas are always wrong - two of the most dishonorable men on the planet.
Trying not to get carried away, but when I hear arguments against gun control, it gets my guard up. If anyone I loved ever got shot, and then someone tried to argue gun control with me, I wouldn't be able to hold back any contempt... it would get LOUD. I feel like getting loud about it anyway. Enough is FUCKING ENOUGH!
On the internet, all I can do is shout at you with all caps. I sincerely welcome a challenge, even though I'm pretty sure I've heard every possible argument in favor of guns and why they are cool to have. I think they are massively fucking uncool, except in movies and video games of course. I don't understand why guns are acceptable thing for people to have in actual society. This feeling is almost instinctual to me.
I'm fascinated by the German model for gun control, and I'm hoping someone can tell me about it. From what I understand, and correct me if I am wrong, guns are not allowed out of the owner's house, unless they are disassembled. Basically, you cannot carry a firearm outside of your property. Is that right? What I do know for sure is that gun-related deaths in Germany are very low, and in my country, it's a very high number. I want to know how my country can be low in that area as well. Is that too much to ask for? I guess it is...
My opinion on gun control has been one I have held for as long as I have been thinking about the issue. I think it should be stricter... MUCH stricter. It seriously pains me... I mean I feel actual physical pain... when people are okay with the way things are with guns.
I've thankfully never experienced the tragic loss of someone close to me by gunshot. During most of my 36 years on this planet, I've lived in suburban towns south of Boston. I hear of shootings now and then in parts of the city, but it doesn't happen much out here in the woods. However, I have no reason to feel safe anywhere. There is a constant stream of stories from across the USA of people who were just going about their lives, and were then killed by a gunshot.
Here's a recent story that really got to me: http://journalstar.com/news/national/ra ... 2ee36.html A grandfather driving on the highway is gunned down by thieves who were probably pretending to be police... and they may never be caught... and it was far too easy for them to do what they did... because of guns, and no other reason.
The only time I ever held a gun was when I was 12 years old. A friend's father owned a few guns and less us kids (illegally) fire a small shotgun into the woods. Never told my parents about that one. Anyway, I didn't think it was cool. It scared the fuck out of me. It was too intense - the thought of having that much power. I do not trust anyone with that power. Why should I?
I don't think the 2nd Amendment to the U.S. Constitution guarantees an individual right to bear arms. It was written for well-organized militias (state militias, which later became the National Guard). The Supreme Court was wrong in its 5-4 decision in DC vs Heller (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DC_vs._Heller). Scalia and Thomas are always wrong - two of the most dishonorable men on the planet.
Trying not to get carried away, but when I hear arguments against gun control, it gets my guard up. If anyone I loved ever got shot, and then someone tried to argue gun control with me, I wouldn't be able to hold back any contempt... it would get LOUD. I feel like getting loud about it anyway. Enough is FUCKING ENOUGH!
On the internet, all I can do is shout at you with all caps. I sincerely welcome a challenge, even though I'm pretty sure I've heard every possible argument in favor of guns and why they are cool to have. I think they are massively fucking uncool, except in movies and video games of course. I don't understand why guns are acceptable thing for people to have in actual society. This feeling is almost instinctual to me.
I'm fascinated by the German model for gun control, and I'm hoping someone can tell me about it. From what I understand, and correct me if I am wrong, guns are not allowed out of the owner's house, unless they are disassembled. Basically, you cannot carry a firearm outside of your property. Is that right? What I do know for sure is that gun-related deaths in Germany are very low, and in my country, it's a very high number. I want to know how my country can be low in that area as well. Is that too much to ask for? I guess it is...
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When the 2nd Amendment was penned the most advanced gun was a fucking musket. Now anyone can own an M-16 and gun down scores on a college campus or in a mall. Goddam right wing fuckers.
Baltimore Arena 10/27/13; WF Center 4/28/16; WF Center 4/29/16; Fenway Park 8/7/16; Fenway Park 9/2/18;
Asbury Park 9/18/21; Camden 9/14/22
Tres Mtns - TLA 3/23/11; EV - Tower Theatre 6/25/11; Temple of the Dog - Tower Theatre 11/5/16
100% True! I don't think they could have imagined Columbine, Virginia Tech, Killeen, etc...
I use them for hunting and occasionally for sport shooting.
I enjoy my right to own a gun and I hold myself personally responsible for my guns.
They remain locked up (even though when I was a kid, my dads guns were simply under the bed.. He did this awesome thing which was teach me responsibility, respect, and accountability.. I knew the guns were there, I would never dream of playing with them or using them to harm a human)
I respect why people are very passionate about stricter gun control, but I do not agree..
Neither does the supreme court.
Michigan is a state that has made it very easy for a non-felon to carry a concealed firearm. Many folks all around me are carrying guns. I know it, but also the criminals know it.. I believe it is a crime deterrent for the most part.. The vast majority of people who legally carry guns are not criminals.. Here are some numbers:
http://www.mcrgo.org/mcrgo/doc_pdf/mich ... ystudy.pdf
And now the Michigan State Police list of violations of the CCW law ( crimes people who have a CCW committed ) 2010-2011
http://www.michigan.gov/documents/msp/2 ... 6632_7.pdf
Pretty low numbers..
seems in this state, people legally owning guns aren't the problem..
An interesting side note to all of this is that Michigan is actually an "open carry" state. Meaning barring any local ordinance or private property restriction, citizens are perfectly within their right to carry an unconcealed firearm on their person at anytime..
I choose not to own a pistol, not to have a CCW permit, and to not carry a gun on me.
I also choose to keep my guns in a safe at a relatives house that doesn't have children in it.
I do this because I live in downtown city area with higher crime rates than the suburbs.
I would hate if someone broke into my house and stole my guns.
It would just mean more guns on the streets and in the hands of criminals.
Which brings me to this point:
If the government were to take all the guns from law abiding citizens, the only 2 groups of people that would still have guns would be criminals and the government.. Sometimes it is hard to make the distinction between these two groups.. and a don't trust either on many levels..
I realize this has been done in other countries with reported success, but I believe America is a special situation in this regard. The FBI says that there are well over 200 million privately owned guns in this country.. and that just the ones they can account for through legal sale. If you add in the military and government owned guns it puts the number closer to 350 million guns.. One for every man, woman, and child in this country.
Do you believe taking guns from law abiding citizens would lower crime?
Do you believe they could round up all the guns and none would be left on the streets with criminals?
66% of the murders in this country are committed with a gun and I agree it is a problem.. But would the lack of a guns eliminate all of those murders? I mean, in most cases, if someone really wants to kill somebody they will..
I personally feel better knowing that if somebody wants to invade my home, they have to consider that there may just be an armed person in there willing to protect it. maybe think twice..
Same goes for on the street here in Michigan.. If someone wants to harm me, they have to at least consider that I may be packing.. again, they may think twice..
What if they didn't have to worry about these things at all?
Abrn Hlls '98 - Clarkston 2 '03 - Grd Rpds '06 - Abrn Hlls '06 - Clvd '10 - PJ20 - Berlin 1+2 '12 - Wrigley '13 - Pitt '13- buff '13- Philly 1+2 '13 - Seattle '13
The stupidity never ceases to amaze me when it comes to guns. M-16's are not owned by the general public. Why start using facts now though.
The Lubys incident in Killeen is what solidifie my stance on this since I knew so many of the victims and the people directly involved.
No one in their right mind can possibly believe that anyone other than criminals would have guns if they were banned can they?? I mean that is just elementary logic. It wouldn't matter how strict the consequences were for having a gun, because I'm pretty sure folks like Stawiki and George Hennard could give two shits about getting caught with a gun.
Believe it or not the vast majority of gun owners are well educated and very responsible with their weapons.
And Kenny, I really understand your point.. Its a heartbreaker to listen to the news sometimes.. I get that..
But when you said "because of guns, and no other reason" you lost me a bit.. clearly man's ill will towards another human life was the reason.. all the gun laws in the world wont stop that kind of evil.. A criminal will seek out the most effective tools to carry out their plan. always. Just the same, a law abiding citizen has been guaranteed the right by the constitution to seek out the most effective tool to protect their liberties.. Please do not take this away.. We have done nothing wrong and furthermore, do not deserve to have our rights taken away at the hands of people who have no regard for human life.. Don't punish us for what other bad men have done.
Abrn Hlls '98 - Clarkston 2 '03 - Grd Rpds '06 - Abrn Hlls '06 - Clvd '10 - PJ20 - Berlin 1+2 '12 - Wrigley '13 - Pitt '13- buff '13- Philly 1+2 '13 - Seattle '13
Anyway, I started with, that I agree with 'Caveeze'.
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Also I think that some sort of fingerprint recognition on guns (future guns) may be something to look at, so only the owner of the gun can fire it. A small safety measure that could do quite a bit of good.
Of course this is a long term thing and we still have a lot of work to do getting rid of the tons of black market guns etc.
(I'll jump back in here in more detail when I get the will power to retype/think of all I wanted to say about this issue)
What I meant was there was no other reason, or no other way, that this killing could have taken place. And you're right that no law can stop that kind of ill will, but less guns on the street takes away a lot of the ability of people who would kill to do so.
I'm sure that many gun owners will live their whole lives never having done one bad thing with their guns... but I still say the existence of these guns is itself a bad thing. Human nature is a frail thing, and one bad day for a person can more easily lead to an even worse day if a gun is readily available. Could be homicide... could be suicide... or both.
I don't buy the argument that guns are needed to protect our liberties. That sounds paranoid to me. The government isn't some foreign entity that wants to take away our rights. The government is made out of people we know. My sister works for the government. We use our government to make our community safer. My state (Massachusetts) has better gun control than most states, and it's safer than most states. It should be even better. What about my liberty to live without fear of being shot? The right to life... that's an important one, no?
you said it yourself, you only hear about these things.. they dont actually happen close to you.. well, that close anyway..
but fuck all of the arguing.. you know my stance and I know yours..
so give me your solutions that would make you feel safe.. and I will be your checks and balances.. and you can be mine
Clearly detail to me how creating more laws or restrictions (as far as guns are concerned) helps to make you feel safe..
Do you think bad people will say " oh shit!! its against the law now.. we wont do that"
I can assure you they wont..
and if this gun problem was nipped in the butt before the turn of the 1900's, I would agree your policy might work..
but the truth is, it is to far gone to actually expect the results you speak of.. there are WAY to many guns in this country .. Better yet, there are way to many people with little to zero sense of self, or humanity, that have access to this efficient tool..
So explain to me how Mass. is better off.. What is the government there actually controlling? it seems to me that the state is actually crippling the ability of A+ type folks to say "we have had enough"..
I believe my states policy is a much more effective model..
Abrn Hlls '98 - Clarkston 2 '03 - Grd Rpds '06 - Abrn Hlls '06 - Clvd '10 - PJ20 - Berlin 1+2 '12 - Wrigley '13 - Pitt '13- buff '13- Philly 1+2 '13 - Seattle '13
who follow the laws. Criminals will get guns.
Someone intent on hurting or killing one or many will find a way,
find a gun or whatever.
Seems an answer to random horrible crime like in Settle and other places is to recognize
when a person is mentally ill and have resources for them to get help, cheap real help
before they blow up and take out people. I have not followed this case as of yet
for his particulars though.
As far as murder victims of crime, assault and robbery, home invasion, rape...
empowering victims to fight back and much stiffer laws to remove violent criminals
from society permanently are needed.
To many are released with many escalating in violence.
I used to be able to collect Marlboro points from empty packs where I worked as a kid and get cool gear. I could buy a pack of Skoal when I was 14 at any gas station I wanted to and not get a second look. My Dairy Queen had a cigarette vending machine in it.
Now I have to watch commercials of people smoking out of their neck while I'm eating dinner and smoking in public carries the social stigma right on par with a sex offender.
Chicago is the most strict on guns over any other city, but we all know what happened there last weekend don't we?
And I'll agree that our government is not a foreign entity that wants to take away our rights, it is a domestic entity that IS taking away our rights. Do you just ignore things like the PATRIOT Act, NDAA, and CISPA?
My liberty to live also means the right to defend my life and my family members.
i think reasonable gun control should be supported by both sides of the aisle ... if you are a gun owner - what's wrong with registering with authorities? ... we have to register cars and homes ... the NRA on the other hand are just assholes ... these stand your ground laws they lobby for have no business being in place anywhere ...
anyways - it's a societal connection to violence that causes these events ...
Typically, I'm against further government reductions of our freedoms.
But in the case of guns, the argument of the 2nd Amendment right to bear arms has totally lost all credence. That amendment was designed to protect citizens from a tyrannical government. At the time it was passed, owning a gun put you relatively on par with the weapons technology that our government had. These days, owning a handgun or rifle will do little against a government armed with nuclear weapons, missiles, tanks, warships, fighter jets, etc. As such, I really think that the 2nd Amendment means nothing.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
So explain why the NRA & Republicans let the Assault Weapons Ban expire.
I don't have a problem with ordinary people keeping a handgun in their house for their own protection.
Don't understand why people should be able to carry a gun around in public though. I like the argument about how this helps deter crime in Michigan. Did you know Detroit is in Michigan?
Baltimore Arena 10/27/13; WF Center 4/28/16; WF Center 4/29/16; Fenway Park 8/7/16; Fenway Park 9/2/18;
Asbury Park 9/18/21; Camden 9/14/22
Tres Mtns - TLA 3/23/11; EV - Tower Theatre 6/25/11; Temple of the Dog - Tower Theatre 11/5/16
For instance, the shooting in AZ of the congress woman...I think i read that a few years before that event took place, it was regulated that certain magazine limits were in place -- i think it was 12-15 capacity. Then they increased it to 33 or something like that...guess how many shots that crazy fucker got off before he was tackled? Yes, he shot off like 31 rounds, killed six and shot 13-14 people. smaller magazine limits might have given people a chance to stop him earlier.
I think the power/size, speed of reload, and mag capacity in the firearms of present day are unnecessary.
Then there was the famous LA shootout in 1997, where two bank robbers shot off THOUSANDS of rounds. it was said that they "legally purchased Chinese AKM rifles converted to fire fully automatic with several 75 to 100-round drum magazines, as well as 30 round box magazines."
"Due to the large number of injuries, rounds fired, weapons used and overall length of the shootout, it is regarded as one of the longest and bloodiest events in US police history.[5] This incident would later lead to California enforcing a highly restrictive law on firearms, including the controversial "10-round magazine-only" law for firearms bought in the state by residents."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Hollywood_shootout
So now you want to change the subject?
Ok well crime is deterred when I'm allowed to carry and defend myself and not be an easy victim if I have to go to those parts.
The law sunsetted because it was proven that crime rates did not change, plus nobody dared touch it, and nobody will now. The public is more pro gun than anti.
Crime rates dropped in the 90s.
Baltimore Arena 10/27/13; WF Center 4/28/16; WF Center 4/29/16; Fenway Park 8/7/16; Fenway Park 9/2/18;
Asbury Park 9/18/21; Camden 9/14/22
Tres Mtns - TLA 3/23/11; EV - Tower Theatre 6/25/11; Temple of the Dog - Tower Theatre 11/5/16
A historical amount of guns have been produced and bought since Obama was elected and crime rates are rising. The drop in the 90s had more to do with a good economy.
But all studies I have read, and the one I posted, indicate a decrease in crime since the law changed here in Michigan.. I dont think it is a coincidence..
And yes I am aware Detroit is 15 miles south of me.. Fuckin' Tigers
Abrn Hlls '98 - Clarkston 2 '03 - Grd Rpds '06 - Abrn Hlls '06 - Clvd '10 - PJ20 - Berlin 1+2 '12 - Wrigley '13 - Pitt '13- buff '13- Philly 1+2 '13 - Seattle '13
It is happening. It doesn't matter how often it's happening close to me. And my point was that it's because of strict gun control in my state that it's not happening close to me as often as it does elsewhere in the USA.
It's paranoia to think the government will take away rights if people don't have guns, because in the UK for example, there aren't many guns. It's not paranoia to think that one or more of the 270 million guns in the USA might one day be used against me or you or anyone we know.
What is your state? In my state, ever since a gun control law was passed in 1998, the number of gun permits has dropped by a third. As of 2011, Massachusetts has the third lowest number of gun deaths in the USA (http://www.lcav.org/states/Massachusett ... ummary.pdf). I rest my case.
We have also had a successful "Gift for Guns" program: http://www.masslive.com/news/index.ssf/ ... usett.html
Meanwhile, 12 other states are looking at proposals to eliminate gun permits, which is insane: http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/sto ... 53391932/1
Shooting at Toronto Eaton Centre
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/story/2012/06/02/toronto-eaton-center-shooting.html
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/toronto/shots-fired-at-torontos-eatons-centre-at-least-two-injured/article4226794/
http://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2012/0 ... story.html
These things won't end until we get real about what 'freedom' means in terms of guns.
Abrn Hlls '98 - Clarkston 2 '03 - Grd Rpds '06 - Abrn Hlls '06 - Clvd '10 - PJ20 - Berlin 1+2 '12 - Wrigley '13 - Pitt '13- buff '13- Philly 1+2 '13 - Seattle '13
Why not enforce the laws that already exist and stand firm on sentences?
Abrn Hlls '98 - Clarkston 2 '03 - Grd Rpds '06 - Abrn Hlls '06 - Clvd '10 - PJ20 - Berlin 1+2 '12 - Wrigley '13 - Pitt '13- buff '13- Philly 1+2 '13 - Seattle '13
If that was my daughter who died on that porch in Cambridge, would you still laugh about what I don't get?
Do you honestly think that no effort is being made to enforce the laws that exist?
There's no proper way to police the power of guns. I don't understand why people don't get THAT.