Matt Cameron and unconventional time signatures

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  • 62strat
    62strat Posts: 638
    in my opinion, anyone that says "matt cameron cant drum to given to fly"

    is an idiot.

    People who also say matt cameron is too straight ahead. Have no clue what they are talking about.

    What i will accept is "i prefer jack irons to matt cameron"

    But matt cameron is far and above jack irons. Matt cameron is a beast.
  • DriftingByTheStorm
    DriftingByTheStorm Posts: 8,684
    Ike Winston wrote:
    Yeah, there's another one. Jeff wrote that one if memory serves. I think the verse is like 5/8, or maybe 25/8 depending on how you look at it since the whole thing repeats every 5 groups of 5.
    .

    isn't it kind of hard to count bass drum kicks on songs written in 5/8 ?

    SOH has a synchopated beat, i think ... the drum isn't really driving the song, so if you were looking for the kick, wouldn't you be counting a lot of dead air\ rests ?

    seems like it's best to just start counting fast (8th note fast) when the riff starts up ... you get 5 in on the first appregiation ... 5 in between, then 5 on the next little piece ... right?

    i dunno ... i hate time signatures ...

    grrr.
    If I was to smile and I held out my hand
    If I opened it now would you not understand?
  • Oh, Jimmy
    Oh, Jimmy Posts: 957
    Listen to Money by Pink Floyd. Its in 7/8 time. The bass line repeats every 7 8th notes.
  • DriftingByTheStorm
    DriftingByTheStorm Posts: 8,684
    62strat wrote:
    People who also say matt cameron is too straight ahead. Have no clue what they are talking about.

    What i will accept is "i prefer jack irons to matt cameron"

    But matt cameron is far and above jack irons. Matt cameron is a beast.


    yeah. while we are on this subject, lets compare:

    jack wrote: the whale song (!?!)
    matt wrote: IN THE MOON LIGHT ...

    and many others ... but i love in the moon light ....

    that song kicks serious ass!
    If I was to smile and I held out my hand
    If I opened it now would you not understand?
  • surferdude
    surferdude Posts: 2,057
    DriftingByTheStorm wrote:
    yeah. while we are on this subject, lets compare:

    jack wrote: the whale song (!?!)
    matt wrote: IN THE MOON LIGHT ...

    and many others ... but i love in the moon light ....

    that song kicks serious ass!
    About the last thing I look for in a drummer is songwriting ability. I love In The Moonlight but I equally hate Evacuation, the weakest album song in the PJ catalogue.
    “One good thing about music,
    when it hits you, you feel to pain.
    So brutalize me with music.”
    ~ Bob Marley
  • DriftingByTheStorm
    DriftingByTheStorm Posts: 8,684
    surferdude wrote:
    About the last thing I look for in a drummer is songwriting ability. I love In The Moonlight but I equally hate Evacuation, the weakest album song in the PJ catalogue.

    i agree that evacuation isn't the greatest piece of music to listen to, but i think the lyrics are amazing ... straight forward and amazing.

    i know that doesn't go too far towards crediting mr. cameron ...

    my last post was really just looking for an excuse to heap praise on him ...
    ... in addition to me thinking that he is incredible and stands on his own as a drummer ... it was just an extra comment ...

    ... i think it's great that he can write too ...

    ... and everyone in that band has written a song that "sucks" ... imho, Not For You should be dropped from the setlist, it's boring.

    but that's just my opinion.

    :D
    If I was to smile and I held out my hand
    If I opened it now would you not understand?
  • surferdude
    surferdude Posts: 2,057
    DriftingByTheStorm wrote:
    ... imho, Not For You should be dropped from the setlist, it's boring.

    but that's just my opinion.
    :D
    Biggest problem with Not For You live is that Matt drums it nearly identically to Light Years. There's no sense of urgency in the drums, mid-tempo slush.
    “One good thing about music,
    when it hits you, you feel to pain.
    So brutalize me with music.”
    ~ Bob Marley
  • the unseen
    the unseen Posts: 372
    surferdude wrote:
    About the last thing I look for in a drummer is songwriting ability. I love In The Moonlight but I equally hate Evacuation, the weakest album song in the PJ catalogue.

    evacuation is way more inaresting then mankind.
  • chopitdown
    chopitdown Posts: 2,222
    PintoMusic wrote:
    I love Matt but when it comes to stuff like "In My Tree", "Given To Fly" and anything else with continuous tom-tom-tommery, there's no substitute for Jack.

    i don't know matt wrote this one song called jesus christ pose that used a fair amount of toms and it wasn't too shabby
    make sure the fortune that you seek...is the fortune that you need
  • Ike Winston
    Ike Winston Posts: 7
    Just thought of a new non-Matt example for anyone who still cares: Low Light. For the people who are trying to figure out this time signature stuff, it's pretty easy to pick up on the extra beat at the end of each measure in the verses.
  • rrivers
    rrivers Posts: 3,698
    surferdude wrote:
    Biggest problem with Not For You live is that Matt drums it nearly identically to Light Years. There's no sense of urgency in the drums, mid-tempo slush.

    First off, great thread! Nice discussion of drumming and time signatures (two things I could not know less about but it is still interesting to read the discussion).

    Funny that you said Matt drums Not For You just like Light Years. They played Not For you at the show I went to in 2003 and I thought it was light years!!! It had a long build up of just drums before the guitars came in with Ed talking about Michael Powell.

    I'm not much of an Evacuation fan but I do like the line "he sensed worry could be strength".

    I love "You Are". Great, great song.
    "We're fixed good, lamp-wise."
  • clemmys
    clemmys Posts: 11
    Just because a song isnt in 4/4 doesnt mean its a weird time signature. Matt is such a more versatile drummer than the others and he brings much more to the table than Dave and Jack. Listen to a song like Sleight of Hand, and it will boggle your mind sometimes. Ask someone to play along with Roit Act and Binaural compared to Vs and Vitalogy and anyone will say Matt is the best drummer, not to mention his soundgarden days which he produced some sick beats and time signatures.
    2000 - 9/1 Camden
    2003 - 4/28 Philadelphia, 5/3 State College, 7/5 Camden
    2004 - 10/1 Reading
    2005 - 10/3 Philadelphia
    2006 - 5/20 Cleveland, 6/23 Pittsburgh
  • awake
    awake Posts: 35
    as a drummer, who loves listening to, but hates playing, odd time signatures. Some of what Matt does is not so much odd signatures, but odd accents and beats over 4/4 which make it sound odd. Even as far back as Temple of the Dog, his beats and fills sometimes seem out of place, until you listen to it a few times, and then you realize his original approach.

    That said, there are tons of examples of his odd signatures. My Wave is a classic 5/4 groove from Soundgarden, and Outshined is 7/8.

    Easiest way to find an odd signature is try and tap your foot on 1 and 3 and clap hands on 2 and 4. (like you can to every single Beatles song)
    If you lose the beat after a bar or 2, it's probably an odd signature. Try it with the above 2 songs, you'll see.

    some examples of mainstream odd signatures are Money (Floyd), Turn it on (Genesis), Hold On (yes).

    i think it's best when the odd signature is subtle like the above examples, and the listener sings and taps along not noticing

    hope this helps. If you really want to hurt your brain, listen to Dream Theater or Tool.
  • mike_s_6
    mike_s_6 Posts: 160
    I've been listening to Superunknown, tapping to all of their songs. What's the signature of Spoonman, The Day I Tried to Live, and Half? It seems, in both songs, that he's not just providing the groove, but he's actually playing alongside the melody.

    Just Like Suicide sounds to me like it's missing a half note somewhere. Sometimes, I think he's drumming a typical 4/4, except the embellishments he puts on the songs make them sound odd.

    Most of his technical skill are lost to listeners who are not too keen on rhythm.
  • dirtyfrankdahmer
    dirtyfrankdahmer Posts: 136
    Ike Winston wrote:
    Just thought of a new non-Matt example for anyone who still cares: Low Light. For the people who are trying to figure out this time signature stuff, it's pretty easy to pick up on the extra beat at the end of each measure in the verses.
    damn man you beat me to it! but i will add that the extra beat you hear is not the odd signature. the entire song except for that one measure that you mentioned is written in 3/4. the measure that you mention is actually 4/4. what makes it sound off is the switch from 3/4 to 4/4 for that particular measure and then back to the 3/4 that the song is following.
  • dirtyfrankdahmer
    dirtyfrankdahmer Posts: 136
    Ike Winston wrote:
    By the way, no one's said anything about 1/2 Full yet. Does anyone know if he's doing anything "unusual" at the end there?
    i would have to listen to it again more closely, but humming it in my head....its just very cool and very tastefull drumming on matt's behalf. the signature is in 3/4.. maybe that is what you are feeling, but i don't think the signature changes the entire song. i'll have to listen to it again. just humming the main melody in my head, im pretty sure what im saying is correct.
  • Twigster
    Twigster Posts: 39
    Another vote for 'You Are'.

    To my mind, their best track since Ten.

    I also agree with a previous post - I don't think Matt shines as much with PJ as he did with Soundgarden. You only have to watch Jesus Christ Pose on the Motorvision video to appreciate how fast & precise he is. Head down is drumming genius also.
    Brixton Academy, London: 14/07/93
    Wembley Arena, London: 29/10/96
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    ISS Dome, Dusseldorf: 21/06/07

    Brad: Phoenix Theatre, Toronto: 31/10/02
  • enharmonic
    enharmonic Posts: 1,917
    There's nothing unconventional about those time signatures. They're all fairly commonplace.
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  • PJ-Sin
    PJ-Sin Posts: 348
    The easiest way to figure out time signatures is by counting the cymbal hits.

    And, I agree with enharmonic, they (pj) dont do anything really out there. Try listening to some Meshuggah or Candiria and try to figure that shit out! LOL
    http://www.byproductmusic.com
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  • enharmonic
    enharmonic Posts: 1,917
    PJ-Sin wrote:
    The easiest way to figure out time signatures is by counting the cymbal hits.

    And, I agree with enharmonic, they (pj) dont do anything really out there. Try listening to some Meshuggah or Candiria and try to figure that shit out! LOL

    Good looking out on Candiria. Kenny's a friend of mine. I'll let him know that he's getting props on a PJ thread about Matt Cameron. He'll get a kick out of that :D
    new music: http://www.myspace.com/blackbirdsymphonique

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