Matt Cameron and unconventional time signatures

PJ-Sin

enharmonic wrote:

Good looking out on Candiria. Kenny's a friend of mine. I'll let him know that he's getting props on a PJ thread about Matt Cameron. He'll get a kick out of that

I thought your name looked familiar, you are on the Candiria board too arent you?? I havent posted there in awhile, but when I do my username is jchordz

..and yeah, they are some great guys, Ive hung out with them quite a few times after the shows here in STL, and once down in Springfield when me and a friend took a road trip. So how is Kenny anyway, I heard he left the band to get in a better headspace. Tell him I said hey, and to keep doing what he needs to do.

weenie

Ike Winston wrote:

Today when I listened to Riot Act for the first time in awhile, I noticed for the first time that not only Cropduster (which I already knew about) but also You Are and Get Right are played in unconventional time signatures (which, to me, means anything other than 4/4, 3/4, or 6/8). This means that every Matt Cameron-composed Pearl Jam song is in a "weird meter" with the possible exception of Evacuation--which, metrically speaking, I can't remember the sound of right now. Does anyone remember or know the time sig for that tune?

Aside from that, can anyone think of non-Cameron-composed PJ songs in which Cameron does "metrically weird" things with his drum performance, like play 3-against-4 and that kind of thing? There seemed to be something metrically unusual in the drumming at the end of 1/2 Full but I couldn't tell for sure. And while we're at it, can anyone think of any non-Cameron PJ songs written in unusual meters? From what I remember it sounding like, I think the coda of Stone's All Those Yesterdays is in 6/4 or something of the like. But that's all I can think of off the top of my head, and I might even be wrong about that one.

In any case, thanks for discussing. I should mention that I'm a bassist/guitarist and not a drummer, so I apologize to the drummers if some of my terminology is a bit off. Looking forward to hear any examples anyone can think of.

Listen to some of Rush's records round about the early to mid 80's. Neil Peart is THE MASTER imo....but I only know what I like.

MookieBlaylock5v1

awake wrote:

If you really want to hurt your brain, listen to Dream Theater or Tool.

Agreed... check out some of the Dream Theater instrumentals like Erotomania from Awake, Dance of Eternity from Scenes From a Memory or the middle of Metropolis Pt. 1 off of Images and Words.

PJ-Sin

Al DiMeola has some crazy time signatures as well. Plus he is insane on a guitar!!

chopitdown

mike_s_6 wrote:

I've been listening to Superunknown, tapping to all of their songs. What's the signature of Spoonman, The Day I Tried to Live, and Half? It seems, in both songs, that he's not just providing the groove, but he's actually playing alongside the melody.

Just Like Suicide sounds to me like it's missing a half note somewhere. Sometimes, I think he's drumming a typical 4/4, except the embellishments he puts on the songs make them sound odd.

Most of his technical skill are lost to listeners who are not too keen on rhythm.

spoon man is 4/4 (chorus) and in 7/4 verse.

some of day i tried to live is in 15/4 which usually breaks down to 4/4, 4/4, 4/4, 3/4 but doesn't have to.

modern drummer in the mid 90's did a good article on him and had some of the above songs transcribed with the funky signatures. wooden jesus, pushin forward back, limo wreck.

With soundgarden, matt helped reinforce the rhythm of the guitar much more than establish a groove as most of PJ's songs are. The drums are trickier in SG b/c of the approach of that band.

chopitdown

cool site with odd time sigs

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_works_in_irregular_time_signatures

Pearl Jam and toast

chopitdown wrote:

spoon man is 4/4 (chorus) and in 7/4 verse.

some of day i tried to live is in 15/4 which usually breaks down to 4/4, 4/4, 4/4, 3/4 but doesn't have to.

modern drummer in the mid 90's did a good article on him and had some of the above songs transcribed with the funky signatures. wooden jesus, pushin forward back, limo wreck.

With soundgarden, matt helped reinforce the rhythm of the guitar much more than establish a groove as most of PJ's songs are. The drums are trickier in SG b/c of the approach of that band.

In The Moonlight is probably the weirdest time sig. in his Pearl Jam catalouge.. or maybe it just sounds like it is.. I haven't checked the time sig for it, but the guitar work is funky enough to be really fucked up

mike_s_6

chopitdown wrote:

spoon man is 4/4 (chorus) and in 7/4 verse.

some of day i tried to live is in 15/4 which usually breaks down to 4/4, 4/4, 4/4, 3/4 but doesn't have to.

modern drummer in the mid 90's did a good article on him and had some of the above songs transcribed with the funky signatures. wooden jesus, pushin forward back, limo wreck.

With soundgarden, matt helped reinforce the rhythm of the guitar much more than establish a groove as most of PJ's songs are. The drums are trickier in SG b/c of the approach of that band.

Thanks!

I'm tapping to Day I Tried to Live with the song in my head and the order sounds like 4/4, 3/4, 4/4, 4/4.

Wooden Jesus is 6/4 then 3/4 for the chorus... you wouldn't have that modern drummer article would you? I'd like to give it a read.

voodoopug

enharmonic wrote:

There's nothing unconventional about it if you dig jazz. It's a different way of thinking and playing though for sure

Check out Matt's band, Wellwater Conspiracy. Plenty of sick drumming

agreed.....Matt has a "Charlie Watts" feel to many of his differnt time measurements. It takes some "standard" playing in jazz style and adapts them to Rock. Midnight Rambler by the stones is a good example of this, also if you are into deeper stones cuts, try "High and Dry" off the Aftermath album

chopitdown

mike_s_6 wrote:

Thanks!

I'm tapping to Day I Tried to Live with the song in my head and the order sounds like 4/4, 3/4, 4/4, 4/4.

Wooden Jesus is 6/4 then 3/4 for the chorus... you wouldn't have that modern drummer article would you? I'd like to give it a read.

i have a link to the article...it doesn't have the transcriptions though (they're images in the mag and my guess is that people haven't taken the time to scan them in) and i have absolutely no idea where my original copy is. But here's the article...it's a good read from the superunknown days

http://web.stargate.net/soundgarden/articles/mdrummer_6-94.shtml

mike_s_6

^ Oh :( I want the score too...

Pearl Jam and toast wrote:

In The Moonlight is probably the weirdest time sig. in his Pearl Jam catalouge..

Well they gave him a chance to write the music, guess he made the most of it

appleworm

I have it at home, I'll try to post tonight.....
If I remember correctly Wooden Jesus is in 12/8, at least the "main" groove.
AW

mike_s_6 wrote:

Thanks!

I'm tapping to Day I Tried to Live with the song in my head and the order sounds like 4/4, 3/4, 4/4, 4/4.

Wooden Jesus is 6/4 then 3/4 for the chorus... you wouldn't have that modern drummer article would you? I'd like to give it a read.

harrisonmerwin

one thign i dotn like about drummers, and the production of drums either studio, live recorded, or live in general, they never think about tone! drums have tone, and it can be tweaked post microphones. Matt (and his tech) are GENIOUSES at achieving great drum tones through microphones. Forget his gear, i'd like to know what they are running for mic's and processers in the studio and on stage. They are GREAT

mike_s_6

appleworm wrote:

I have it at home, I'll try to post tonight.....
If I remember correctly Wooden Jesus is in 12/8, at least the "main" groove.
AW

Here's my question, when do you know it's 6/4 or 12/8? I also noticed the high hat drumming 8th notes at the background, so I suspected that it was 12/8, but I wouldn't really know the difference.

I'm not a drummer, I know time signatures from my piano education Please try to post!

Oh, Jimmy

mike_s_6 wrote:

I've been listening to Superunknown, tapping to all of their songs. What's the signature of Spoonman, The Day I Tried to Live, and Half? It seems, in both songs, that he's not just providing the groove, but he's actually playing alongside the melody.

Just Like Suicide sounds to me like it's missing a half note somewhere. Sometimes, I think he's drumming a typical 4/4, except the embellishments he puts on the songs make them sound odd.

Most of his technical skill are lost to listeners who are not too keen on rhythm.

Spoonman may be 6/4

Day I Tried to Live-7/8

Oh, Jimmy

harrisonmerwin wrote:

one thign i dotn like about drummers, and the production of drums either studio, live recorded, or live in general, they never think about tone! drums have tone, and it can be tweaked post microphones. Matt (and his tech) are GENIOUSES at achieving great drum tones through microphones. Forget his gear, i'd like to know what they are running for mic's and processers in the studio and on stage. They are GREAT

Danny Carey always has the best drum sound possible. The sound itself wouldnt fit alotta bands, but its always perfect with TOOL. He takes tons of time and care to get his recorded sound just so.

Ian M

seems to me Matt has troubles playing in compound (3) time
songs like Elderly Woman for e.g. sound a bit square to me when he plays them, especially when compared to Irons' playing
he makes a good job of it in 1/2 Full though, where at the end it sounds like he's playing 4-time across the three (so it joins up after 3 bars) to pretty cool, head-fucking effect

chopitdown

Oh, Jimmy wrote:

Danny Carey always has the best drum sound possible. The sound itself wouldnt fit alotta bands, but its always perfect with TOOL. He takes tons of time and care to get his recorded sound just so.

on the first album he tuned every drum head to the key of the song which def helped with the recording sound.

Oh, Jimmy

chopitdown wrote:

on the first album he tuned every drum head to the key of the song which def helped with the recording sound.

I am pretty sure he has done that on every album, and his live kit is tuned mostly to d but a few of the drums vary a little.

Stereotype

Hello! I just spotted this thread and wanna join:)I'm a girl and also play drums (and a piano). It' hard for me to explain this tehnical terms in english but I can try, right:)
Just wanna say that music that falls in the "odd time" category is usually a combination of common rhythms played in the same measure of music. For example a seven beat rhythm may consist of 4 beat pattern followed by 3 beat pattern (or vice versa) and if this happens only in some part of the song it does not mean that the whole beat is uneven. I think Matt sometimes adds some parts so it seems odd but it's actually not..sometimes he also plays over the beat..but that doesn't change it.

Someone asked how do you know if it's 3/4 or 6/8.. Well...first one has three beats in a measure and the second has got six ..It's also written differently...but that doesn't help if you're listening...but you can tell because of the repetition in melody..O shit..I'm awful in explaining theory..

The song that I like most and it's in "odd time" is Seven days from Sting.