Why should government bail out people in housing crisis?

Halifax2TheMax · October 9

Lerxst1992 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

Lerxst1992 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

Lerxst1992 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

* The following opinion is mine and mine alone and does not represent the views of my family, friends, government and/or my past, present or future employer. US Department of State: 1-888-407-4747.
Hey, but if you just cut out your Starbucks and streaming/subscription services and invest in the stock market, you too can buy a home someday.

https://www.theguardian.com/money/2025/oct/09/gen-z-face-job-pocalypse-as-global-firms-prioritise-ai-over-new-hires-report-says

AI is certainly a concern for the future and when unemployment starts to skyrocket that's certainly something that can be analyzed, but it doesn't disprove the historical fact that finding a way to invest a few thousand dollars a year by keeping a close eye on budgets is not only smart economics but it's smart economics

It's an absurd argument you continually have mocking this point, where every single one of your posts document hundreds of thousands of dollars, if not more, spent in travel and entertainment.

Well deserved and I hope it was enjoyable. But every single one of your comments is proof that you are not correct making fun of smart budgeting

* The following opinion is mine and mine alone and does not represent the views of my family, friends, government and/or my past, present or future employer. US Department of State: 1-888-407-4747.
I didn’t need AI to explain “smart budgeting” or some financial theory regarding the value of money 40 years apart when I bought a house in 1997. I also didn’t need AI to explain stock market returns when I started investing in a pension through my employer in 1989 and 401K plans through subsequent employer sponsored plans with matching up to a percentage. OMG, I must have bought my mother’s house as I’m still in the basement!!!
Which of my posts have “where every single one of your posts document hundreds of thousands of dollars, if not more, spent in travel and entertainment.” Are you shadow quoting?

Your signature. Over 100 shows, and what do we have... about 15 out of town trips? And five or six overseas trips?

Congratulations that's an impressive list. Let's agree to figure out the future value annuity of all the tickets and airfare hotels lodging transportation incidentals, all goes into the logistics of that. It's an impressive list and I congratulate you for the dedication and ability to do that.

We're on a website here where there are tons of fans that have impressive lists traveling the globe to see this phenomenal band and many others. But yet we have to criticize and nitpick each other because we can't figure out a way to teach younger folks to save a few Gs a year towards the future. There's some bizarre dynamics going on this forum

Edit
And please don't claim that I'm saying don't go and treat yourself. That's not what I'm saying.

* The following opinion is mine and mine alone and does not represent the views of my family, friends, government and/or my past, present or future employer. US Department of State: 1-888-407-4747.
Sorry, but it’s not 100 shows. Your math is fuzzy again. You’d be surprised what Starbucks Rewards will get you. I’d like to get 100+ but believe it might be out of reach given the lack of a drummer, shorter tour lengths and a dwindling number of countries and cities I’d like to visit. Oh well.
The issue I have is that your theory does not fully explain the challenges this generation faces in both the housing and job markets. Even if the millennials forgo pleasurable things like Starbucks, happy meals and streaming/subscription services and invest in the stock market and employer retirement plans, of which only 401K plans allow borrowing, they have to pay it back within a certain time frame or face steep tax penalties. So on top of student loan debt from the cost of education,also something that increased at a faster rate than inflation, they have a mortgage payment for a higher cost house, again outpacing inflation, and now the 401K loan to repay. As has been illustrated time and time again is that wages/salaries haven’t kept pace. There’s a reason the median age of first time home buyers has risen to 38. The class that’s benefitted the most? The top 1% and one tenth of 1% in particular.
My advice of staying in mom’s basement and buying it from her before/after death would be just as valid as your advice. Neither reflect the reality of the housing/job markets faced by millennials.
What do you think the demographics of the ten club reflect? Maybe they should include a survey by gender, household income, race, gender and sexual orientation. It’d be interesting but I doubt there are too many millennials reading the forums for how to get ahead. Regardless, “if they just do as you suggest”, they too can buy a house. Sorry, it’s much more complicated than that despite 40 years of the value of money.

Based on the trajectory of travel costs of the “ten club generation “ vs the “Swifties generation,” it’s plainly obvious it’s trending in the right direction both in assets invested to travel the world and excessive ticket cost as well as the diversity Taylor’s fans bring to the concert industry. They are likely keeping their Netflix, drinking their Starbucks, and spending record amounts going to shows and traveling. Kudos to the kids!

It’s comforting to know, based on concert investment and related travel, that the younger generation has the means, intelligence and will to travel the world to see their star, and pay record prices.

* The following opinion is mine and mine alone and does not represent the views of my family, friends, government and/or my past, present or future employer. US Department of State: 1-888-407-4747.

Talk about deflection and avoidance.

I forgot to mention that I gave the young kid who handed me my large, regular coffee every morning 5, sometimes 6 mornings a week, $2.00 for a $1.25 coffee and told him to keep the change. It was easier for me than dealing with change and took less time on my way to work. Plus, having worked in the service industry, I thought tipping was the right thing to do, and I still do.

Turns out the kid was from a former Soviet republic or behind the iron curtain. How did I find out? He was in the paper for having scored a perfect score on the national CPA exam. Sure wish his ass could have been deported then as I’m sure he took a job away from a real ‘Murikkkan.

Halifax2TheMax · October 10

Lerxst1992 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

Lerxst1992 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

Lerxst1992 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

* The following opinion is mine and mine alone and does not represent the views of my family, friends, government and/or my past, present or future employer. US Department of State: 1-888-407-4747.
Hey, but if you just cut out your Starbucks and streaming/subscription services and invest in the stock market, you too can buy a home someday.

https://www.theguardian.com/money/2025/oct/09/gen-z-face-job-pocalypse-as-global-firms-prioritise-ai-over-new-hires-report-says

AI is certainly a concern for the future and when unemployment starts to skyrocket that's certainly something that can be analyzed, but it doesn't disprove the historical fact that finding a way to invest a few thousand dollars a year by keeping a close eye on budgets is not only smart economics but it's smart economics

It's an absurd argument you continually have mocking this point, where every single one of your posts document hundreds of thousands of dollars, if not more, spent in travel and entertainment.

Well deserved and I hope it was enjoyable. But every single one of your comments is proof that you are not correct making fun of smart budgeting

* The following opinion is mine and mine alone and does not represent the views of my family, friends, government and/or my past, present or future employer. US Department of State: 1-888-407-4747.
I didn’t need AI to explain “smart budgeting” or some financial theory regarding the value of money 40 years apart when I bought a house in 1997. I also didn’t need AI to explain stock market returns when I started investing in a pension through my employer in 1989 and 401K plans through subsequent employer sponsored plans with matching up to a percentage. OMG, I must have bought my mother’s house as I’m still in the basement!!!
Which of my posts have “where every single one of your posts document hundreds of thousands of dollars, if not more, spent in travel and entertainment.” Are you shadow quoting?

Your signature. Over 100 shows, and what do we have... about 15 out of town trips? And five or six overseas trips?

Congratulations that's an impressive list. Let's agree to figure out the future value annuity of all the tickets and airfare hotels lodging transportation incidentals, all goes into the logistics of that. It's an impressive list and I congratulate you for the dedication and ability to do that.

We're on a website here where there are tons of fans that have impressive lists traveling the globe to see this phenomenal band and many others. But yet we have to criticize and nitpick each other because we can't figure out a way to teach younger folks to save a few Gs a year towards the future. There's some bizarre dynamics going on this forum

Edit
And please don't claim that I'm saying don't go and treat yourself. That's not what I'm saying.

* The following opinion is mine and mine alone and does not represent the views of my family, friends, government and/or my past, present or future employer. US Department of State: 1-888-407-4747.
Sorry, but it’s not 100 shows. Your math is fuzzy again. You’d be surprised what Starbucks Rewards will get you. I’d like to get 100+ but believe it might be out of reach given the lack of a drummer, shorter tour lengths and a dwindling number of countries and cities I’d like to visit. Oh well.
The issue I have is that your theory does not fully explain the challenges this generation faces in both the housing and job markets. Even if the millennials forgo pleasurable things like Starbucks, happy meals and streaming/subscription services and invest in the stock market and employer retirement plans, of which only 401K plans allow borrowing, they have to pay it back within a certain time frame or face steep tax penalties. So on top of student loan debt from the cost of education,also something that increased at a faster rate than inflation, they have a mortgage payment for a higher cost house, again outpacing inflation, and now the 401K loan to repay. As has been illustrated time and time again is that wages/salaries haven’t kept pace. There’s a reason the median age of first time home buyers has risen to 38. The class that’s benefitted the most? The top 1% and one tenth of 1% in particular.
My advice of staying in mom’s basement and buying it from her before/after death would be just as valid as your advice. Neither reflect the reality of the housing/job markets faced by millennials.
What do you think the demographics of the ten club reflect? Maybe they should include a survey by gender, household income, race, gender and sexual orientation. It’d be interesting but I doubt there are too many millennials reading the forums for how to get ahead. Regardless, “if they just do as you suggest”, they too can buy a house. Sorry, it’s much more complicated than that despite 40 years of the value of money.

Based on the trajectory of travel costs of the “ten club generation “ vs the “Swifties generation,” it’s plainly obvious it’s trending in the right direction both in assets invested to travel the world and excessive ticket cost as well as the diversity Taylor’s fans bring to the concert industry. They are likely keeping their Netflix, drinking their Starbucks, and spending record amounts going to shows and traveling. Kudos to the kids!

It’s comforting to know, based on concert investment and related travel, that the younger generation has the means, intelligence and will to travel the world to see their star, and pay record prices.

* The following opinion is mine and mine alone and does not represent the views of my family, friends, government and/or my past, present or future employer. US Department of State: 1-888-407-4747.

Tell it to Maggie Three Names. I’m sure there’s a lot of millennial PJ and Swifty fans in her district. And while you’re at it, give her a primer on the value of money continuum.

https://www.instagram.com/reel/DPl2GuljcTB/?igsh=MXgydmdxYnhwbnVleg==

Lerxst1992 · October 10

Halifax2TheMax said:

Lerxst1992 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

Lerxst1992 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

Lerxst1992 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

* The following opinion is mine and mine alone and does not represent the views of my family, friends, government and/or my past, present or future employer. US Department of State: 1-888-407-4747.
Hey, but if you just cut out your Starbucks and streaming/subscription services and invest in the stock market, you too can buy a home someday.

https://www.theguardian.com/money/2025/oct/09/gen-z-face-job-pocalypse-as-global-firms-prioritise-ai-over-new-hires-report-says

AI is certainly a concern for the future and when unemployment starts to skyrocket that's certainly something that can be analyzed, but it doesn't disprove the historical fact that finding a way to invest a few thousand dollars a year by keeping a close eye on budgets is not only smart economics but it's smart economics

It's an absurd argument you continually have mocking this point, where every single one of your posts document hundreds of thousands of dollars, if not more, spent in travel and entertainment.

Well deserved and I hope it was enjoyable. But every single one of your comments is proof that you are not correct making fun of smart budgeting

* The following opinion is mine and mine alone and does not represent the views of my family, friends, government and/or my past, present or future employer. US Department of State: 1-888-407-4747.
I didn’t need AI to explain “smart budgeting” or some financial theory regarding the value of money 40 years apart when I bought a house in 1997. I also didn’t need AI to explain stock market returns when I started investing in a pension through my employer in 1989 and 401K plans through subsequent employer sponsored plans with matching up to a percentage. OMG, I must have bought my mother’s house as I’m still in the basement!!!
Which of my posts have “where every single one of your posts document hundreds of thousands of dollars, if not more, spent in travel and entertainment.” Are you shadow quoting?

Your signature. Over 100 shows, and what do we have... about 15 out of town trips? And five or six overseas trips?

Congratulations that's an impressive list. Let's agree to figure out the future value annuity of all the tickets and airfare hotels lodging transportation incidentals, all goes into the logistics of that. It's an impressive list and I congratulate you for the dedication and ability to do that.

We're on a website here where there are tons of fans that have impressive lists traveling the globe to see this phenomenal band and many others. But yet we have to criticize and nitpick each other because we can't figure out a way to teach younger folks to save a few Gs a year towards the future. There's some bizarre dynamics going on this forum

Edit
And please don't claim that I'm saying don't go and treat yourself. That's not what I'm saying.

* The following opinion is mine and mine alone and does not represent the views of my family, friends, government and/or my past, present or future employer. US Department of State: 1-888-407-4747.
Sorry, but it’s not 100 shows. Your math is fuzzy again. You’d be surprised what Starbucks Rewards will get you. I’d like to get 100+ but believe it might be out of reach given the lack of a drummer, shorter tour lengths and a dwindling number of countries and cities I’d like to visit. Oh well.
The issue I have is that your theory does not fully explain the challenges this generation faces in both the housing and job markets. Even if the millennials forgo pleasurable things like Starbucks, happy meals and streaming/subscription services and invest in the stock market and employer retirement plans, of which only 401K plans allow borrowing, they have to pay it back within a certain time frame or face steep tax penalties. So on top of student loan debt from the cost of education,also something that increased at a faster rate than inflation, they have a mortgage payment for a higher cost house, again outpacing inflation, and now the 401K loan to repay. As has been illustrated time and time again is that wages/salaries haven’t kept pace. There’s a reason the median age of first time home buyers has risen to 38. The class that’s benefitted the most? The top 1% and one tenth of 1% in particular.
My advice of staying in mom’s basement and buying it from her before/after death would be just as valid as your advice. Neither reflect the reality of the housing/job markets faced by millennials.
What do you think the demographics of the ten club reflect? Maybe they should include a survey by gender, household income, race, gender and sexual orientation. It’d be interesting but I doubt there are too many millennials reading the forums for how to get ahead. Regardless, “if they just do as you suggest”, they too can buy a house. Sorry, it’s much more complicated than that despite 40 years of the value of money.

Based on the trajectory of travel costs of the “ten club generation “ vs the “Swifties generation,” it’s plainly obvious it’s trending in the right direction both in assets invested to travel the world and excessive ticket cost as well as the diversity Taylor’s fans bring to the concert industry. They are likely keeping their Netflix, drinking their Starbucks, and spending record amounts going to shows and traveling. Kudos to the kids!

It’s comforting to know, based on concert investment and related travel, that the younger generation has the means, intelligence and will to travel the world to see their star, and pay record prices.

* The following opinion is mine and mine alone and does not represent the views of my family, friends, government and/or my past, present or future employer. US Department of State: 1-888-407-4747.
Talk about deflection and avoidance.
I forgot to mention that I gave the young kid who handed me my large, regular coffee every morning 5, sometimes 6 mornings a week, $2.00 for a $1.25 coffee and told him to keep the change. It was easier for me than dealing with change and took less time on my way to work. Plus, having worked in the service industry, I thought tipping was the right thing to do, and I still do.
Turns out the kid was from a former Soviet republic or behind the iron curtain. How did I find out? He was in the paper for having scored a perfect score on the national CPA exam. Sure wish his ass could have been deported then as I’m sure he took a job away from a real ‘Murikkkan.

Wait a sec. YOU are complaining about deflection? Haha. We tried science, math, pointed out opportunities capitalism brings, and yes, the American dream. but can’t agree interest is the most costly component in buying a home that media typically ignores, and working adults can make budgetary choices and use tools commonly available to build wealth. It’s better to throw it all away, socialize property, transportation, childcare and food in the financial capital of the world!

Halifax2TheMax · October 10

Lerxst1992 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

Lerxst1992 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

Lerxst1992 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

Lerxst1992 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

* The following opinion is mine and mine alone and does not represent the views of my family, friends, government and/or my past, present or future employer. US Department of State: 1-888-407-4747.
Hey, but if you just cut out your Starbucks and streaming/subscription services and invest in the stock market, you too can buy a home someday.

https://www.theguardian.com/money/2025/oct/09/gen-z-face-job-pocalypse-as-global-firms-prioritise-ai-over-new-hires-report-says

AI is certainly a concern for the future and when unemployment starts to skyrocket that's certainly something that can be analyzed, but it doesn't disprove the historical fact that finding a way to invest a few thousand dollars a year by keeping a close eye on budgets is not only smart economics but it's smart economics

It's an absurd argument you continually have mocking this point, where every single one of your posts document hundreds of thousands of dollars, if not more, spent in travel and entertainment.

Well deserved and I hope it was enjoyable. But every single one of your comments is proof that you are not correct making fun of smart budgeting

* The following opinion is mine and mine alone and does not represent the views of my family, friends, government and/or my past, present or future employer. US Department of State: 1-888-407-4747.
I didn’t need AI to explain “smart budgeting” or some financial theory regarding the value of money 40 years apart when I bought a house in 1997. I also didn’t need AI to explain stock market returns when I started investing in a pension through my employer in 1989 and 401K plans through subsequent employer sponsored plans with matching up to a percentage. OMG, I must have bought my mother’s house as I’m still in the basement!!!
Which of my posts have “where every single one of your posts document hundreds of thousands of dollars, if not more, spent in travel and entertainment.” Are you shadow quoting?

Your signature. Over 100 shows, and what do we have... about 15 out of town trips? And five or six overseas trips?

Congratulations that's an impressive list. Let's agree to figure out the future value annuity of all the tickets and airfare hotels lodging transportation incidentals, all goes into the logistics of that. It's an impressive list and I congratulate you for the dedication and ability to do that.

We're on a website here where there are tons of fans that have impressive lists traveling the globe to see this phenomenal band and many others. But yet we have to criticize and nitpick each other because we can't figure out a way to teach younger folks to save a few Gs a year towards the future. There's some bizarre dynamics going on this forum

Edit
And please don't claim that I'm saying don't go and treat yourself. That's not what I'm saying.

* The following opinion is mine and mine alone and does not represent the views of my family, friends, government and/or my past, present or future employer. US Department of State: 1-888-407-4747.
Sorry, but it’s not 100 shows. Your math is fuzzy again. You’d be surprised what Starbucks Rewards will get you. I’d like to get 100+ but believe it might be out of reach given the lack of a drummer, shorter tour lengths and a dwindling number of countries and cities I’d like to visit. Oh well.
The issue I have is that your theory does not fully explain the challenges this generation faces in both the housing and job markets. Even if the millennials forgo pleasurable things like Starbucks, happy meals and streaming/subscription services and invest in the stock market and employer retirement plans, of which only 401K plans allow borrowing, they have to pay it back within a certain time frame or face steep tax penalties. So on top of student loan debt from the cost of education,also something that increased at a faster rate than inflation, they have a mortgage payment for a higher cost house, again outpacing inflation, and now the 401K loan to repay. As has been illustrated time and time again is that wages/salaries haven’t kept pace. There’s a reason the median age of first time home buyers has risen to 38. The class that’s benefitted the most? The top 1% and one tenth of 1% in particular.
My advice of staying in mom’s basement and buying it from her before/after death would be just as valid as your advice. Neither reflect the reality of the housing/job markets faced by millennials.
What do you think the demographics of the ten club reflect? Maybe they should include a survey by gender, household income, race, gender and sexual orientation. It’d be interesting but I doubt there are too many millennials reading the forums for how to get ahead. Regardless, “if they just do as you suggest”, they too can buy a house. Sorry, it’s much more complicated than that despite 40 years of the value of money.

Based on the trajectory of travel costs of the “ten club generation “ vs the “Swifties generation,” it’s plainly obvious it’s trending in the right direction both in assets invested to travel the world and excessive ticket cost as well as the diversity Taylor’s fans bring to the concert industry. They are likely keeping their Netflix, drinking their Starbucks, and spending record amounts going to shows and traveling. Kudos to the kids!

It’s comforting to know, based on concert investment and related travel, that the younger generation has the means, intelligence and will to travel the world to see their star, and pay record prices.

* The following opinion is mine and mine alone and does not represent the views of my family, friends, government and/or my past, present or future employer. US Department of State: 1-888-407-4747.
Talk about deflection and avoidance.
I forgot to mention that I gave the young kid who handed me my large, regular coffee every morning 5, sometimes 6 mornings a week, $2.00 for a $1.25 coffee and told him to keep the change. It was easier for me than dealing with change and took less time on my way to work. Plus, having worked in the service industry, I thought tipping was the right thing to do, and I still do.
Turns out the kid was from a former Soviet republic or behind the iron curtain. How did I find out? He was in the paper for having scored a perfect score on the national CPA exam. Sure wish his ass could have been deported then as I’m sure he took a job away from a real ‘Murikkkan.

Wait a sec. YOU are complaining about deflection? Haha. We tried science, math, pointed out opportunities capitalism brings, and yes, the American dream. but can’t agree interest is the most costly component in buying a home that media typically ignores, and working adults can make budgetary choices and use tools commonly available to build wealth. It’s better to throw it all away, socialize property, transportation, childcare and food in the financial capital of the world!

* The following opinion is mine and mine alone and does not represent the views of my family, friends, government and/or my past, present or future employer. US Department of State: 1-888-407-4747.

You clearly haven’t put the work in on understanding NYC and how it operates. There’s already subsidized grocery stores. Rent controlled apartments have been around for decades. There’s one free bus route in each of the five boroughs. Oh the horror!

Socialism for working people, particularly the “other”, = BAD. Socialism for Wall Street, corporations and millionaires and billionaires = GREAT.

And you claim to be a dem. Sure.

mace1229 · October 13

Lerxst1992 said:

This is from @benjs

“ Each time housing affordability comes up, someone points out that interest rates were far higher in the 1980s. It’s true — mortgages above 12% were common. But that point misses the forest for the trees. High rates back then applied to homes that cost a fraction of what they do today.
A house purchased in 1985 often sold for around three or four times the median household income. Today, in many cities, it’s eight to ten times. Even with lower interest, the math simply doesn’t balance out — especially once you add in property taxes, insurance, maintenance, and the near-universal expectation of dual incomes.
The deeper issue is how cheap credit reshaped the market itself. Instead of making homes more affordable, decades of low rates allowed prices to inflate dramatically. Borrowing capacity rose faster than wages, so demand pushed up prices far beyond what middle-income earners could sustain. The very policies meant to encourage homeownership ended up pricing out the next generation.
Meanwhile, wage growth has diverged sharply. A handful of high-paying industries have surged, but the broad middle has stagnated. When commentators say “aggregate wage data exaggerates the problem,” they overlook that the middle class isthe problem — it’s where the collapse in affordability hits hardest.
So while it’s fair to note that interest rates shape total home costs, it’s misleading to suggest today’s buyers are exaggerating their struggle. For their parents, high interest was temporary; for their children, high principal is permanent."

…
…

My reply…
Cheap credit is a very good point, but remember the horrors of trump1 led to a very “Socialist” law…guarantee of payroll during COVID and cheap cheap interest rates. It’s difficult for the housing market in the states to recover from what this did to real estate values. Once they are up, they don’t come down all that easy. If there is an overall warning as to my top point that this is part of, be very careful of madani/socialist polices, trump 2020 is a good place to include in the discussion, because it had a huge impact on housing. Imagine trump the socialist!
To try to figure out a ratio of wage growth to housing is impossible imo. Some industries/professions, etc have done remarkably well over time, many have not. Remember the majority of replies I get are jokes and unilateral declarations of “bunk!” Cmon!
On that $420k home, interest is 58% of total mortgage cost on a 7% loan and 73% on a 12% loan. Interest is more significant than the homes cost, yet it is commonly ignored by these media articles.
Regarding Chats point about middle class wages, it’s really difficult to analyze. AI and media results will provide data that we see about 1% income growth per year. I know from the companies I’ve worked at, from teachers I know, from local news articles about police, firemen, train workers (all the publicly available data) at least in metro NY that 1% is not close to reality. Again, it’s a difficult thing to quantify, unlike the impact of interest rates.
To take it a step further, and where I get needled by all the Netflix jokes, is the USA is not an employment based economy. It’s an investor based economy. And that’s my argument against mamdani-omnics. For those willing to tighten their budget by a few thousand a year, take employer 401k matches of a few thousand more, and tax breaks of even more, the tax breaks and tools exist to benefit those who watch their budget and invest. I hate risk, but this is our economy.
If we must make this about income, we need to recognize what the American economy is, and try to come up with methods to spread investor gains better throughout the population, like tax free loans from 401k to buy homes. I didn’t create this system, but it is important to recognize. The way to maximize income needs to include unearned income. Housing rises at about 5.5% annually, and the stock markets around 10%. It is what it is. We tried to fix economic problems during Covid with a socialist approach, and it severely hurt the housing market.

I've thought similar things, and kinda blows my mind when I think about it.
My parents bout our house for 28k I think. Sold it 33 years later for about 500k. And now, 10 years after that, is probably Worth about 800k. It's a 1600 square foot house in the Inland Valley of LA. No way can a normal family with average income afford that now.

I look at my house. We made good money moving out of Colorado that allowed us to buy a house. We paid 450 for it 3 years ago, I think it's worth about 550 now. If you look at the history, it sold for something like 200k about 10 years ago, and was under 100k in 1999. A lot of jobs could afford that 100k mortgage in 1999. A lot less can afford the 550k today. Not to mention insurance and taxes go up with the cost too. Had we not bought our first house 13 years ago and just rented, I don't think we would ever be home owners.

Gern Blansten · October 13

it is strange...so much of it depends on where you live, if the area is growing, etc.

We bought our house in 2008 for $420K...we could sell it now for $1.1mil. We did add a pool four years ago but otherwise it is just the growth in the area.

We just sold my mother in laws house for $120K...she paid $25K for it in 1989, but that house in my city 90 miles west of her would be listed for at least $450K right now

mace1229 · October 13

Gern Blansten said:

it is strange...so much of it depends on where you live, if the area is growing, etc.

We bought our house in 2008 for $420K...we could sell it now for $1.1mil. We did add a pool four years ago but otherwise it is just the growth in the area.

We just sold my mother in laws house for $120K...she paid $25K for it in 1989, but that house in my city 90 miles west of her would be listed for at least $450K right now

She probably would have paid 150K in 1989 though. Seems like wherever you are, housing has doubled in about the last 10 years, and doubled the 10 years before that. Give or take. Most occupations have not kept up with that salary. And seems like public service are among the worst (teachers, police, social workers, etc, they've seen minimal increases over that time).
When I graduated college that was the first big spike in housing. I wasn't in a career enough to get a job, but I had several friends who panicked bought a house around 2006-2007, thinking they'd never afford one if they didn't buy now. A year or two later, the market crashed, and they were stuck. I had a few friends who got married and couldn't sell their house/condo because they owed 100k more than it was worth at that point.
But within 2 or 3 years prices were back up, and then another covid spike saw a huge increase.

Lerxst1992 · October 13

Halifax2TheMax said:

Lerxst1992 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

Lerxst1992 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

Lerxst1992 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

Lerxst1992 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

* The following opinion is mine and mine alone and does not represent the views of my family, friends, government and/or my past, present or future employer. US Department of State: 1-888-407-4747.
Hey, but if you just cut out your Starbucks and streaming/subscription services and invest in the stock market, you too can buy a home someday.

https://www.theguardian.com/money/2025/oct/09/gen-z-face-job-pocalypse-as-global-firms-prioritise-ai-over-new-hires-report-says

AI is certainly a concern for the future and when unemployment starts to skyrocket that's certainly something that can be analyzed, but it doesn't disprove the historical fact that finding a way to invest a few thousand dollars a year by keeping a close eye on budgets is not only smart economics but it's smart economics

It's an absurd argument you continually have mocking this point, where every single one of your posts document hundreds of thousands of dollars, if not more, spent in travel and entertainment.

Well deserved and I hope it was enjoyable. But every single one of your comments is proof that you are not correct making fun of smart budgeting

* The following opinion is mine and mine alone and does not represent the views of my family, friends, government and/or my past, present or future employer. US Department of State: 1-888-407-4747.
I didn’t need AI to explain “smart budgeting” or some financial theory regarding the value of money 40 years apart when I bought a house in 1997. I also didn’t need AI to explain stock market returns when I started investing in a pension through my employer in 1989 and 401K plans through subsequent employer sponsored plans with matching up to a percentage. OMG, I must have bought my mother’s house as I’m still in the basement!!!
Which of my posts have “where every single one of your posts document hundreds of thousands of dollars, if not more, spent in travel and entertainment.” Are you shadow quoting?

Your signature. Over 100 shows, and what do we have... about 15 out of town trips? And five or six overseas trips?

Congratulations that's an impressive list. Let's agree to figure out the future value annuity of all the tickets and airfare hotels lodging transportation incidentals, all goes into the logistics of that. It's an impressive list and I congratulate you for the dedication and ability to do that.

We're on a website here where there are tons of fans that have impressive lists traveling the globe to see this phenomenal band and many others. But yet we have to criticize and nitpick each other because we can't figure out a way to teach younger folks to save a few Gs a year towards the future. There's some bizarre dynamics going on this forum

Edit
And please don't claim that I'm saying don't go and treat yourself. That's not what I'm saying.

* The following opinion is mine and mine alone and does not represent the views of my family, friends, government and/or my past, present or future employer. US Department of State: 1-888-407-4747.
Sorry, but it’s not 100 shows. Your math is fuzzy again. You’d be surprised what Starbucks Rewards will get you. I’d like to get 100+ but believe it might be out of reach given the lack of a drummer, shorter tour lengths and a dwindling number of countries and cities I’d like to visit. Oh well.
The issue I have is that your theory does not fully explain the challenges this generation faces in both the housing and job markets. Even if the millennials forgo pleasurable things like Starbucks, happy meals and streaming/subscription services and invest in the stock market and employer retirement plans, of which only 401K plans allow borrowing, they have to pay it back within a certain time frame or face steep tax penalties. So on top of student loan debt from the cost of education,also something that increased at a faster rate than inflation, they have a mortgage payment for a higher cost house, again outpacing inflation, and now the 401K loan to repay. As has been illustrated time and time again is that wages/salaries haven’t kept pace. There’s a reason the median age of first time home buyers has risen to 38. The class that’s benefitted the most? The top 1% and one tenth of 1% in particular.
My advice of staying in mom’s basement and buying it from her before/after death would be just as valid as your advice. Neither reflect the reality of the housing/job markets faced by millennials.
What do you think the demographics of the ten club reflect? Maybe they should include a survey by gender, household income, race, gender and sexual orientation. It’d be interesting but I doubt there are too many millennials reading the forums for how to get ahead. Regardless, “if they just do as you suggest”, they too can buy a house. Sorry, it’s much more complicated than that despite 40 years of the value of money.

Based on the trajectory of travel costs of the “ten club generation “ vs the “Swifties generation,” it’s plainly obvious it’s trending in the right direction both in assets invested to travel the world and excessive ticket cost as well as the diversity Taylor’s fans bring to the concert industry. They are likely keeping their Netflix, drinking their Starbucks, and spending record amounts going to shows and traveling. Kudos to the kids!

It’s comforting to know, based on concert investment and related travel, that the younger generation has the means, intelligence and will to travel the world to see their star, and pay record prices.

* The following opinion is mine and mine alone and does not represent the views of my family, friends, government and/or my past, present or future employer. US Department of State: 1-888-407-4747.
Talk about deflection and avoidance.
I forgot to mention that I gave the young kid who handed me my large, regular coffee every morning 5, sometimes 6 mornings a week, $2.00 for a $1.25 coffee and told him to keep the change. It was easier for me than dealing with change and took less time on my way to work. Plus, having worked in the service industry, I thought tipping was the right thing to do, and I still do.
Turns out the kid was from a former Soviet republic or behind the iron curtain. How did I find out? He was in the paper for having scored a perfect score on the national CPA exam. Sure wish his ass could have been deported then as I’m sure he took a job away from a real ‘Murikkkan.

Wait a sec. YOU are complaining about deflection? Haha. We tried science, math, pointed out opportunities capitalism brings, and yes, the American dream. but can’t agree interest is the most costly component in buying a home that media typically ignores, and working adults can make budgetary choices and use tools commonly available to build wealth. It’s better to throw it all away, socialize property, transportation, childcare and food in the financial capital of the world!

* The following opinion is mine and mine alone and does not represent the views of my family, friends, government and/or my past, present or future employer. US Department of State: 1-888-407-4747.
You clearly haven’t put the work in on understanding NYC and how it operates. There’s already subsidized grocery stores. Rent controlled apartments have been around for decades. There’s one free bus route in each of the five boroughs. Oh the horror!
Socialism for working people, particularly the “other”, = BAD. Socialism for Wall Street, corporations and millionaires and billionaires = GREAT.
And you claim to be a dem. Sure.

Boy these comments keep trying and keep failing.

He’s proposing to triple spending on new subsidized housing and double investment for maintenance on original supply

he’s proposing new government subsidy of busing and day care.

Lerxst1992 · October 13

mace1229 said:

Lerxst1992 said:

This is from @benjs

“ Each time housing affordability comes up, someone points out that interest rates were far higher in the 1980s. It’s true — mortgages above 12% were common. But that point misses the forest for the trees. High rates back then applied to homes that cost a fraction of what they do today.
A house purchased in 1985 often sold for around three or four times the median household income. Today, in many cities, it’s eight to ten times. Even with lower interest, the math simply doesn’t balance out — especially once you add in property taxes, insurance, maintenance, and the near-universal expectation of dual incomes.
The deeper issue is how cheap credit reshaped the market itself. Instead of making homes more affordable, decades of low rates allowed prices to inflate dramatically. Borrowing capacity rose faster than wages, so demand pushed up prices far beyond what middle-income earners could sustain. The very policies meant to encourage homeownership ended up pricing out the next generation.
Meanwhile, wage growth has diverged sharply. A handful of high-paying industries have surged, but the broad middle has stagnated. When commentators say “aggregate wage data exaggerates the problem,” they overlook that the middle class isthe problem — it’s where the collapse in affordability hits hardest.
So while it’s fair to note that interest rates shape total home costs, it’s misleading to suggest today’s buyers are exaggerating their struggle. For their parents, high interest was temporary; for their children, high principal is permanent."

…
…

My reply…
Cheap credit is a very good point, but remember the horrors of trump1 led to a very “Socialist” law…guarantee of payroll during COVID and cheap cheap interest rates. It’s difficult for the housing market in the states to recover from what this did to real estate values. Once they are up, they don’t come down all that easy. If there is an overall warning as to my top point that this is part of, be very careful of madani/socialist polices, trump 2020 is a good place to include in the discussion, because it had a huge impact on housing. Imagine trump the socialist!
To try to figure out a ratio of wage growth to housing is impossible imo. Some industries/professions, etc have done remarkably well over time, many have not. Remember the majority of replies I get are jokes and unilateral declarations of “bunk!” Cmon!
On that $420k home, interest is 58% of total mortgage cost on a 7% loan and 73% on a 12% loan. Interest is more significant than the homes cost, yet it is commonly ignored by these media articles.
Regarding Chats point about middle class wages, it’s really difficult to analyze. AI and media results will provide data that we see about 1% income growth per year. I know from the companies I’ve worked at, from teachers I know, from local news articles about police, firemen, train workers (all the publicly available data) at least in metro NY that 1% is not close to reality. Again, it’s a difficult thing to quantify, unlike the impact of interest rates.
To take it a step further, and where I get needled by all the Netflix jokes, is the USA is not an employment based economy. It’s an investor based economy. And that’s my argument against mamdani-omnics. For those willing to tighten their budget by a few thousand a year, take employer 401k matches of a few thousand more, and tax breaks of even more, the tax breaks and tools exist to benefit those who watch their budget and invest. I hate risk, but this is our economy.
If we must make this about income, we need to recognize what the American economy is, and try to come up with methods to spread investor gains better throughout the population, like tax free loans from 401k to buy homes. I didn’t create this system, but it is important to recognize. The way to maximize income needs to include unearned income. Housing rises at about 5.5% annually, and the stock markets around 10%. It is what it is. We tried to fix economic problems during Covid with a socialist approach, and it severely hurt the housing market.

I've thought similar things, and kinda blows my mind when I think about it.
My parents bout our house for 28k I think. Sold it 33 years later for about 500k. And now, 10 years after that, is probably Worth about 800k. It's a 1600 square foot house in the Inland Valley of LA. No way can a normal family with average income afford that now.

I look at my house. We made good money moving out of Colorado that allowed us to buy a house. We paid 450 for it 3 years ago, I think it's worth about 550 now. If you look at the history, it sold for something like 200k about 10 years ago, and was under 100k in 1999. A lot of jobs could afford that 100k mortgage in 1999. A lot less can afford the 550k today. Not to mention insurance and taxes go up with the cost too. Had we not bought our first house 13 years ago and just rented, I don't think we would ever be home owners.

Someone is buying those houses just like those Rush $1000 platinum tickets that sold immediately in today’s presale! Not to mention those $2500 VIP travel packs. All presale tix gone. Very few were under $900

Part of the reason a lot of stuff is so damn expensive is a lot of folks are making good money and doing well in the stock market. If no one was buying those houses and those Rush tix they’d be sitting there now for $400. They aren’t. I can hope Friday’s general on sale is better, but I’m not holding my breath.

Halifax2TheMax · October 13

Lerxst1992 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

Lerxst1992 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

Lerxst1992 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

Lerxst1992 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

Lerxst1992 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

* The following opinion is mine and mine alone and does not represent the views of my family, friends, government and/or my past, present or future employer. US Department of State: 1-888-407-4747.
Hey, but if you just cut out your Starbucks and streaming/subscription services and invest in the stock market, you too can buy a home someday.

https://www.theguardian.com/money/2025/oct/09/gen-z-face-job-pocalypse-as-global-firms-prioritise-ai-over-new-hires-report-says

AI is certainly a concern for the future and when unemployment starts to skyrocket that's certainly something that can be analyzed, but it doesn't disprove the historical fact that finding a way to invest a few thousand dollars a year by keeping a close eye on budgets is not only smart economics but it's smart economics

It's an absurd argument you continually have mocking this point, where every single one of your posts document hundreds of thousands of dollars, if not more, spent in travel and entertainment.

Well deserved and I hope it was enjoyable. But every single one of your comments is proof that you are not correct making fun of smart budgeting

* The following opinion is mine and mine alone and does not represent the views of my family, friends, government and/or my past, present or future employer. US Department of State: 1-888-407-4747.
I didn’t need AI to explain “smart budgeting” or some financial theory regarding the value of money 40 years apart when I bought a house in 1997. I also didn’t need AI to explain stock market returns when I started investing in a pension through my employer in 1989 and 401K plans through subsequent employer sponsored plans with matching up to a percentage. OMG, I must have bought my mother’s house as I’m still in the basement!!!
Which of my posts have “where every single one of your posts document hundreds of thousands of dollars, if not more, spent in travel and entertainment.” Are you shadow quoting?

Your signature. Over 100 shows, and what do we have... about 15 out of town trips? And five or six overseas trips?

Congratulations that's an impressive list. Let's agree to figure out the future value annuity of all the tickets and airfare hotels lodging transportation incidentals, all goes into the logistics of that. It's an impressive list and I congratulate you for the dedication and ability to do that.

We're on a website here where there are tons of fans that have impressive lists traveling the globe to see this phenomenal band and many others. But yet we have to criticize and nitpick each other because we can't figure out a way to teach younger folks to save a few Gs a year towards the future. There's some bizarre dynamics going on this forum

Edit
And please don't claim that I'm saying don't go and treat yourself. That's not what I'm saying.

* The following opinion is mine and mine alone and does not represent the views of my family, friends, government and/or my past, present or future employer. US Department of State: 1-888-407-4747.
Sorry, but it’s not 100 shows. Your math is fuzzy again. You’d be surprised what Starbucks Rewards will get you. I’d like to get 100+ but believe it might be out of reach given the lack of a drummer, shorter tour lengths and a dwindling number of countries and cities I’d like to visit. Oh well.
The issue I have is that your theory does not fully explain the challenges this generation faces in both the housing and job markets. Even if the millennials forgo pleasurable things like Starbucks, happy meals and streaming/subscription services and invest in the stock market and employer retirement plans, of which only 401K plans allow borrowing, they have to pay it back within a certain time frame or face steep tax penalties. So on top of student loan debt from the cost of education,also something that increased at a faster rate than inflation, they have a mortgage payment for a higher cost house, again outpacing inflation, and now the 401K loan to repay. As has been illustrated time and time again is that wages/salaries haven’t kept pace. There’s a reason the median age of first time home buyers has risen to 38. The class that’s benefitted the most? The top 1% and one tenth of 1% in particular.
My advice of staying in mom’s basement and buying it from her before/after death would be just as valid as your advice. Neither reflect the reality of the housing/job markets faced by millennials.
What do you think the demographics of the ten club reflect? Maybe they should include a survey by gender, household income, race, gender and sexual orientation. It’d be interesting but I doubt there are too many millennials reading the forums for how to get ahead. Regardless, “if they just do as you suggest”, they too can buy a house. Sorry, it’s much more complicated than that despite 40 years of the value of money.

Based on the trajectory of travel costs of the “ten club generation “ vs the “Swifties generation,” it’s plainly obvious it’s trending in the right direction both in assets invested to travel the world and excessive ticket cost as well as the diversity Taylor’s fans bring to the concert industry. They are likely keeping their Netflix, drinking their Starbucks, and spending record amounts going to shows and traveling. Kudos to the kids!

It’s comforting to know, based on concert investment and related travel, that the younger generation has the means, intelligence and will to travel the world to see their star, and pay record prices.

* The following opinion is mine and mine alone and does not represent the views of my family, friends, government and/or my past, present or future employer. US Department of State: 1-888-407-4747.
Talk about deflection and avoidance.
I forgot to mention that I gave the young kid who handed me my large, regular coffee every morning 5, sometimes 6 mornings a week, $2.00 for a $1.25 coffee and told him to keep the change. It was easier for me than dealing with change and took less time on my way to work. Plus, having worked in the service industry, I thought tipping was the right thing to do, and I still do.
Turns out the kid was from a former Soviet republic or behind the iron curtain. How did I find out? He was in the paper for having scored a perfect score on the national CPA exam. Sure wish his ass could have been deported then as I’m sure he took a job away from a real ‘Murikkkan.

Wait a sec. YOU are complaining about deflection? Haha. We tried science, math, pointed out opportunities capitalism brings, and yes, the American dream. but can’t agree interest is the most costly component in buying a home that media typically ignores, and working adults can make budgetary choices and use tools commonly available to build wealth. It’s better to throw it all away, socialize property, transportation, childcare and food in the financial capital of the world!

* The following opinion is mine and mine alone and does not represent the views of my family, friends, government and/or my past, present or future employer. US Department of State: 1-888-407-4747.
You clearly haven’t put the work in on understanding NYC and how it operates. There’s already subsidized grocery stores. Rent controlled apartments have been around for decades. There’s one free bus route in each of the five boroughs. Oh the horror!
Socialism for working people, particularly the “other”, = BAD. Socialism for Wall Street, corporations and millionaires and billionaires = GREAT.
And you claim to be a dem. Sure.

Boy these comments keep trying and keep failing.

He’s proposing to triple spending on new subsidized housing and double investment for maintenance on original supply

he’s proposing new government subsidy of busing and day care.

* The following opinion is mine and mine alone and does not represent the views of my family, friends, government and/or my past, present or future employer. US Department of State: 1-888-407-4747.

Oh, the horror. Your trying to pose as a dem is what’s failing. You still haven’t done the work to understand the political machine that is NYC governance.

Gern Blansten · October 13

mace1229 said:

Gern Blansten said:

it is strange...so much of it depends on where you live, if the area is growing, etc.

We bought our house in 2008 for $420K...we could sell it now for $1.1mil. We did add a pool four years ago but otherwise it is just the growth in the area.

We just sold my mother in laws house for $120K...she paid $25K for it in 1989, but that house in my city 90 miles west of her would be listed for at least $450K right now

She probably would have paid 150K in 1989 though. Seems like wherever you are, housing has doubled in about the last 10 years, and doubled the 10 years before that. Give or take. Most occupations have not kept up with that salary. And seems like public service are among the worst (teachers, police, social workers, etc, they've seen minimal increases over that time).
When I graduated college that was the first big spike in housing. I wasn't in a career enough to get a job, but I had several friends who panicked bought a house around 2006-2007, thinking they'd never afford one if they didn't buy now. A year or two later, the market crashed, and they were stuck. I had a few friends who got married and couldn't sell their house/condo because they owed 100k more than it was worth at that point.
But within 2 or 3 years prices were back up, and then another covid spike saw a huge increase.

maybe I don't understand your point but no she wouldn't have....first she wouldn't have been able to afford it and second the house was worth $25K when she bought it...so she paid $25K

mace1229 · 2:41AM

Gern Blansten said:

mace1229 said:

Gern Blansten said:

it is strange...so much of it depends on where you live, if the area is growing, etc.

We bought our house in 2008 for $420K...we could sell it now for $1.1mil. We did add a pool four years ago but otherwise it is just the growth in the area.

We just sold my mother in laws house for $120K...she paid $25K for it in 1989, but that house in my city 90 miles west of her would be listed for at least $450K right now

She probably would have paid 150K in 1989 though. Seems like wherever you are, housing has doubled in about the last 10 years, and doubled the 10 years before that. Give or take. Most occupations have not kept up with that salary. And seems like public service are among the worst (teachers, police, social workers, etc, they've seen minimal increases over that time).
When I graduated college that was the first big spike in housing. I wasn't in a career enough to get a job, but I had several friends who panicked bought a house around 2006-2007, thinking they'd never afford one if they didn't buy now. A year or two later, the market crashed, and they were stuck. I had a few friends who got married and couldn't sell their house/condo because they owed 100k more than it was worth at that point.
But within 2 or 3 years prices were back up, and then another covid spike saw a huge increase.

maybe I don't understand your point but no she wouldn't have....first she wouldn't have been able to afford it and second the house was worth $25K when she bought it...so she paid $25K

I meant if she had bought that house in your neighborhood back then instead of wherever it was. You said she bought a house for 25k and 30 years later sold it for 120, but would have got 450 if it was 90 miles away. Probably true, but then it wouldn’t have cost 25k back then either in your neighborhood. Location has always been a primary factor.
My point was housing has hit everyone hard. I’m sure there are exceptions, but everywhere I’m familiar with it’s gone up at least 2-3 times in value in the last 20 years. Where I grew up in Southern California, our houses in Colorado Springs and Denver, and now Tennessee, they’ve all increase over 300% compared to what they were worth in early 2000s.
Anywhere I have friends or family has experienced the same growth.
i don’t see how the majority of kids graduating college now are going to be homeowners any time soon with that level of growth.

Gern Blansten · 12:54PM

mace1229 said:

Gern Blansten said:

mace1229 said:

Gern Blansten said:

it is strange...so much of it depends on where you live, if the area is growing, etc.

We bought our house in 2008 for $420K...we could sell it now for $1.1mil. We did add a pool four years ago but otherwise it is just the growth in the area.

We just sold my mother in laws house for $120K...she paid $25K for it in 1989, but that house in my city 90 miles west of her would be listed for at least $450K right now

She probably would have paid 150K in 1989 though. Seems like wherever you are, housing has doubled in about the last 10 years, and doubled the 10 years before that. Give or take. Most occupations have not kept up with that salary. And seems like public service are among the worst (teachers, police, social workers, etc, they've seen minimal increases over that time).
When I graduated college that was the first big spike in housing. I wasn't in a career enough to get a job, but I had several friends who panicked bought a house around 2006-2007, thinking they'd never afford one if they didn't buy now. A year or two later, the market crashed, and they were stuck. I had a few friends who got married and couldn't sell their house/condo because they owed 100k more than it was worth at that point.
But within 2 or 3 years prices were back up, and then another covid spike saw a huge increase.

maybe I don't understand your point but no she wouldn't have....first she wouldn't have been able to afford it and second the house was worth $25K when she bought it...so she paid $25K

I meant if she had bought that house in your neighborhood back then instead of wherever it was. You said she bought a house for 25k and 30 years later sold it for 120, but would have got 450 if it was 90 miles away. Probably true, but then it wouldn’t have cost 25k back then either in your neighborhood. Location has always been a primary factor.
My point was housing has hit everyone hard. I’m sure there are exceptions, but everywhere I’m familiar with it’s gone up at least 2-3 times in value in the last 20 years. Where I grew up in Southern California, our houses in Colorado Springs and Denver, and now Tennessee, they’ve all increase over 300% compared to what they were worth in early 2000s.
Anywhere I have friends or family has experienced the same growth.
i don’t see how the majority of kids graduating college now are going to be homeowners any time soon with that level of growth.

gotcha...it wouldn't have been $25K for sure.

We moved here in 1993 from Muncie...houses that were going for $50K in Muncie were closer to $75K here. He her was built in 1890 in the old downtown but would have been in that $75K-$90K range I'm sure.

We ended up building a house for about $95K in a new vinyl village...probably the first vinyl village in this city. It's still there and doesn't look too bad. We moved to a different house in 1998 because I was starting to notice that the neighborhood was aging. Driveways cracking, people bitching about the HOA (there was only about 50 homes total) paint chipping, etc. But it's held up ok.

The main issue with her town is that industry left. It was a small city of roughly 25K people. Had Fram, Corning, BASF as the big employers...those are all gone now. Population basically the same which is strange.

Why should government bail out people in housing crisis?

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