Dave A joined PJ two days after Ten was released after both Krusen and Chamberlain quit. I'm not sure where the shotgun marriage thing comes from.
There is no cult. He's a great drummer.
Ed talked very nicely about him at the R&R HOF induction.
The shotgun marriage was the fact the band was already playing shows to support their debut album. There really wasn't a ton of room for a deliberative process. He came at Chamberlain's recommendation and they needed a drummer. And, they were in the studio for Vs. relatively quickly (by today's standards). He wasn't their guy. He was just a guy. Sometimes that works out. Sometimes it doesn't.
Dave A wrote a couple great songs for them, for sure. Despite that. his contribution to this band has been greatly over romanticized, and to sociopearljam's point, not even remotely relative to the amount of discussion or agita it's generated.
He's good, but I wouldn't call him a great drummer... he's certainly no better than the 4th best to have played for this band.
Totally disagree....he's a great drummer
I don't get the hate.
I don’t rhink there’s much hate for his drumming and his contribution, I think there’s an odd dynamic within the band’s fan base where people have this loyalty to him over the other drummers, and Dave has fed this dynamic for 30 years.
Dave A wrote a couple great songs for them, for sure. Despite that. his contribution to this band has been greatly over romanticized, and to sociopearljam's point, not even remotely relative to the amount of discussion or agita it's generated.
He's good, but I wouldn't call him a great drummer... he's certainly no better than the 4th best to have played for this band.
does this also then apply to Jack?
Dave actually was with them when they were still playing small clubs, as Gern pointed out. It's not super typical for a drummer to contribute to songwriting. I'm not one of "they should get dave back in the band" people, but his contributions shouldn't be limited just because of the time period he was in the band. I mean, people are also talking about Dave K, who was in the band an even shorter time and only drummed on 1 record.
Your point about Dave's contributions not being limited because of the timing works both ways... it shouldn't be overstated because of the timing either, The follow up albums to Ten were going to happen regardless of who was behind the kit. One can argue they may not have been as big as they were if they had a different drummer, but based on the success of Ten, we can assume at least VS still would have done pretty damn well.
Do No Code and Yield happen without Jack? Does PJ even continue as a band if he doesn't show up? There's a lot less certainty there, I think.
Regarding your last point, I'm not one of the people clamoring for Dave K (that has me scratching my head)... I'm not clamoring for ANY of their past drummers to return. I don't want sentimentality to factor into where they go next.
Dave A wrote a couple great songs for them, for sure. Despite that. his contribution to this band has been greatly over romanticized, and to sociopearljam's point, not even remotely relative to the amount of discussion or agita it's generated.
He's good, but I wouldn't call him a great drummer... he's certainly no better than the 4th best to have played for this band.
does this also then apply to Jack?
Dave actually was with them when they were still playing small clubs, as Gern pointed out. It's not super typical for a drummer to contribute to songwriting. I'm not one of "they should get dave back in the band" people, but his contributions shouldn't be limited just because of the time period he was in the band. I mean, people are also talking about Dave K, who was in the band an even shorter time and only drummed on 1 record.
Your point about Dave's contributions not being limited because of the timing works both ways... it shouldn't be overstated because of the timing either, The follow up albums to Ten were going to happen regardless of who was behind the kit. One can argue they may not have been as big as they were if they had a different drummer, but based on the success of Ten, we can assume at least VS still would have done pretty damn well.
Do No Code and Yield happen without Jack? Does PJ even continue as a band if he doesn't show up? There's a lot less certainty there, I think.
Regarding your last point, I'm not one of the people clamoring for Dave K (that has me scratching my head)... I'm not clamoring for ANY of their past drummers to return. I don't want sentimentality to factor into where they go next.
for sure, I just think for people to question why he keeps getting brought up-well, I think it's pretty obvious-he drummed on the Ten tour, he played and helped create VS and Vitalogy, which is pretty heavy nostalgia for a lot of people (I'd say most fans say the first 3 records is their favourite period). MANY folks dropped off after Dave was fired, not because he was fired, but because they didn't like the change in style. Some people just prefer his drumming-totally subjective. I don't think No Code or Yield happen without Jack-Dave's style just wouldn't have suited that writing.
I don't think his contributions are overstated, honestly. I think people just talk about him the most because of the circumstances surrounding his departure and my points above.
Hugh Freaking Dillon is currently out of the office, returning sometime in the fall
He keeps reminding me of Dave Mustaine - who also can't let go of Metallica firing him over 40 years ago.
I follow him on facebook. I was absolutely FLOORED that he said he'd be willing to return, given all that he has said about the band literally a few days before. He keeps going on and on and on about how they aren't the same band, the band's output basically sucked since he left. Why would you want to drum with a band if you hate the majority of the catalogue?
Hugh Freaking Dillon is currently out of the office, returning sometime in the fall
Dave A wrote a couple great songs for them, for sure. Despite that. his contribution to this band has been greatly over romanticized, and to sociopearljam's point, not even remotely relative to the amount of discussion or agita it's generated.
He's good, but I wouldn't call him a great drummer... he's certainly no better than the 4th best to have played for this band.
does this also then apply to Jack?
Dave actually was with them when they were still playing small clubs, as Gern pointed out. It's not super typical for a drummer to contribute to songwriting. I'm not one of "they should get dave back in the band" people, but his contributions shouldn't be limited just because of the time period he was in the band. I mean, people are also talking about Dave K, who was in the band an even shorter time and only drummed on 1 record.
Your point about Dave's contributions not being limited because of the timing works both ways... it shouldn't be overstated because of the timing either, The follow up albums to Ten were going to happen regardless of who was behind the kit. One can argue they may not have been as big as they were if they had a different drummer, but based on the success of Ten, we can assume at least VS still would have done pretty damn well.
Do No Code and Yield happen without Jack? Does PJ even continue as a band if he doesn't show up? There's a lot less certainty there, I think.
Regarding your last point, I'm not one of the people clamoring for Dave K (that has me scratching my head)... I'm not clamoring for ANY of their past drummers to return. I don't want sentimentality to factor into where they go next.
for sure, I just think for people to question why he keeps getting brought up-well, I think it's pretty obvious-he drummed on the Ten tour, he played and helped create VS and Vitalogy, which is pretty heavy nostalgia for a lot of people (I'd say most fans say the first 3 records is their favourite period). MANY folks dropped off after Dave was fired, not because he was fired, but because they didn't like the change in style. Some people just prefer his drumming-totally subjective. I don't think No Code or Yield happen without Jack-Dave's style just wouldn't have suited that writing.
I don't think his contributions are overstated, honestly. I think people just talk about him the most because of the circumstances surrounding his departure and my points above.
I think the nostalgia for that time period clouds people's perception of what he brought to the table.
I think Dave is perversely enjoying reading everything that continues to be said about him in this forum.
Taking the time to write a statement asking people to stop requesting his return to the band is pathetic.
But at the same time, it reveals his need for attention — which we’re serving to him on a silver platter.
Myself included.
Mexico City 17/7/2003 Mexico City 18/7/2003 Mexico City 19/7/2003 Santiago Chile 22/11/2005 Santiago Chile 23/11/2005 Buenos Aires Argentina 13/11/2011 Santiago Chile 16/11/2011 Lima Perú 18/11/2011 Sao Paulo Brasil 31/3/2013 Buenos Aires Argentina 03/4/2013 Santiago Chile 06/5/2013 Santiago Chile 4/11/2015 Buenos Aires Argentina 7/11/2015 Porto Alegre Brasil 11/11/2015 Sao Paulo Brasil 14/11/2015 Brasilia Brasil 17/11/2015 Belo Horizonte Brasil 20/11/2015 Rio de Janeiro Brasil 22/11/2015 Bogota Colombia 25/11/2015 Mexico City 28/11/2015 Ft. Lauderdale, FL 8/4/2016 Miami, FL 9/4/2016 Tampa, FL 11/4/2016 Santiago Chile 13/3/2018 Santiago Chile 16/3/2018 Rome Italy 26/6/2018 Prague Czech Republic 1/7/2018 Krakow Poland 3/7/2018 Berlin Germany 5/7/2018 Barcelona Spain 10/7/2018 Dana Point, CA 1/10/2021 Dana Point, CA 2/10/2021 Seattle, WA 28/05/2024 Seattle, WA 30/05/2024 New Orleans, LA 03/05/2025
Dave A wrote a couple great songs for them, for sure. Despite that. his contribution to this band has been greatly over romanticized, and to sociopearljam's point, not even remotely relative to the amount of discussion or agita it's generated.
He's good, but I wouldn't call him a great drummer... he's certainly no better than the 4th best to have played for this band.
does this also then apply to Jack?
Dave actually was with them when they were still playing small clubs, as Gern pointed out. It's not super typical for a drummer to contribute to songwriting. I'm not one of "they should get dave back in the band" people, but his contributions shouldn't be limited just because of the time period he was in the band. I mean, people are also talking about Dave K, who was in the band an even shorter time and only drummed on 1 record.
Your point about Dave's contributions not being limited because of the timing works both ways... it shouldn't be overstated because of the timing either, The follow up albums to Ten were going to happen regardless of who was behind the kit. One can argue they may not have been as big as they were if they had a different drummer, but based on the success of Ten, we can assume at least VS still would have done pretty damn well.
Do No Code and Yield happen without Jack? Does PJ even continue as a band if he doesn't show up? There's a lot less certainty there, I think.
Regarding your last point, I'm not one of the people clamoring for Dave K (that has me scratching my head)... I'm not clamoring for ANY of their past drummers to return. I don't want sentimentality to factor into where they go next.
for sure, I just think for people to question why he keeps getting brought up-well, I think it's pretty obvious-he drummed on the Ten tour, he played and helped create VS and Vitalogy, which is pretty heavy nostalgia for a lot of people (I'd say most fans say the first 3 records is their favourite period). MANY folks dropped off after Dave was fired, not because he was fired, but because they didn't like the change in style. Some people just prefer his drumming-totally subjective. I don't think No Code or Yield happen without Jack-Dave's style just wouldn't have suited that writing.
I don't think his contributions are overstated, honestly. I think people just talk about him the most because of the circumstances surrounding his departure and my points above.
I think the nostalgia for that time period clouds people's perception of what he brought to the table.
what is your criteria for "brought to the table"? as a drummer who played on two albums, he brought just as much as Jack did. More than Dave K did. More than Matt Chamberlain did.
Hugh Freaking Dillon is currently out of the office, returning sometime in the fall
I wouldn't be feeling sorry for Dave A in terms of finances. He'd do quite well from royalties alone. Does he have $10 million? No. But he would be very comfortable.
I know a few fans who chipped in and bought his old storage units. Don't think he's comfortable
He keeps reminding me of Dave Mustaine - who also can't let go of Metallica firing him over 40 years ago.
I follow him on facebook. I was absolutely FLOORED that he said he'd be willing to return, given all that he has said about the band literally a few days before. He keeps going on and on and on about how they aren't the same band, the band's output basically sucked since he left. Why would you want to drum with a band if you hate the majority of the catalogue?
He did not explicitly say he wants to come back. Quite the opposite, in fact.
Dave A wrote a couple great songs for them, for sure. Despite that. his contribution to this band has been greatly over romanticized, and to sociopearljam's point, not even remotely relative to the amount of discussion or agita it's generated.
He's good, but I wouldn't call him a great drummer... he's certainly no better than the 4th best to have played for this band.
does this also then apply to Jack?
Dave actually was with them when they were still playing small clubs, as Gern pointed out. It's not super typical for a drummer to contribute to songwriting. I'm not one of "they should get dave back in the band" people, but his contributions shouldn't be limited just because of the time period he was in the band. I mean, people are also talking about Dave K, who was in the band an even shorter time and only drummed on 1 record.
Your point about Dave's contributions not being limited because of the timing works both ways... it shouldn't be overstated because of the timing either, The follow up albums to Ten were going to happen regardless of who was behind the kit. One can argue they may not have been as big as they were if they had a different drummer, but based on the success of Ten, we can assume at least VS still would have done pretty damn well.
Do No Code and Yield happen without Jack? Does PJ even continue as a band if he doesn't show up? There's a lot less certainty there, I think.
Regarding your last point, I'm not one of the people clamoring for Dave K (that has me scratching my head)... I'm not clamoring for ANY of their past drummers to return. I don't want sentimentality to factor into where they go next.
for sure, I just think for people to question why he keeps getting brought up-well, I think it's pretty obvious-he drummed on the Ten tour, he played and helped create VS and Vitalogy, which is pretty heavy nostalgia for a lot of people (I'd say most fans say the first 3 records is their favourite period). MANY folks dropped off after Dave was fired, not because he was fired, but because they didn't like the change in style. Some people just prefer his drumming-totally subjective. I don't think No Code or Yield happen without Jack-Dave's style just wouldn't have suited that writing.
I don't think his contributions are overstated, honestly. I think people just talk about him the most because of the circumstances surrounding his departure and my points above.
I think the nostalgia for that time period clouds people's perception of what he brought to the table.
what is your criteria for "brought to the table"? as a drummer who played on two albums, he brought just as much as Jack did. More than Dave K did. More than Matt Chamberlain did.
My criteria is a lot more than just the # of albums each guy played on.
IDK how you can ignore the context of where the band was at when each drummer joined. As someone mentioned, Dave A got on a rocket ship as it was taking off. JI arguably saved them from breaking up and inspired them to a new sound and direction.
From that perspective, I would say JI brought way more to the table for PJ than Dave A.
He keeps reminding me of Dave Mustaine - who also can't let go of Metallica firing him over 40 years ago.
I follow him on facebook. I was absolutely FLOORED that he said he'd be willing to return, given all that he has said about the band literally a few days before. He keeps going on and on and on about how they aren't the same band, the band's output basically sucked since he left. Why would you want to drum with a band if you hate the majority of the catalogue?
He did not explicitly say he wants to come back. Quite the opposite, in fact.
this says to me if he got the call he wouldn't hestitate:
.I know I could and would have much to contribute if indeed the call came, but sadly, I don't see that happening
Hugh Freaking Dillon is currently out of the office, returning sometime in the fall
Dave A wrote a couple great songs for them, for sure. Despite that. his contribution to this band has been greatly over romanticized, and to sociopearljam's point, not even remotely relative to the amount of discussion or agita it's generated.
He's good, but I wouldn't call him a great drummer... he's certainly no better than the 4th best to have played for this band.
does this also then apply to Jack?
Dave actually was with them when they were still playing small clubs, as Gern pointed out. It's not super typical for a drummer to contribute to songwriting. I'm not one of "they should get dave back in the band" people, but his contributions shouldn't be limited just because of the time period he was in the band. I mean, people are also talking about Dave K, who was in the band an even shorter time and only drummed on 1 record.
Your point about Dave's contributions not being limited because of the timing works both ways... it shouldn't be overstated because of the timing either, The follow up albums to Ten were going to happen regardless of who was behind the kit. One can argue they may not have been as big as they were if they had a different drummer, but based on the success of Ten, we can assume at least VS still would have done pretty damn well.
Do No Code and Yield happen without Jack? Does PJ even continue as a band if he doesn't show up? There's a lot less certainty there, I think.
Regarding your last point, I'm not one of the people clamoring for Dave K (that has me scratching my head)... I'm not clamoring for ANY of their past drummers to return. I don't want sentimentality to factor into where they go next.
for sure, I just think for people to question why he keeps getting brought up-well, I think it's pretty obvious-he drummed on the Ten tour, he played and helped create VS and Vitalogy, which is pretty heavy nostalgia for a lot of people (I'd say most fans say the first 3 records is their favourite period). MANY folks dropped off after Dave was fired, not because he was fired, but because they didn't like the change in style. Some people just prefer his drumming-totally subjective. I don't think No Code or Yield happen without Jack-Dave's style just wouldn't have suited that writing.
I don't think his contributions are overstated, honestly. I think people just talk about him the most because of the circumstances surrounding his departure and my points above.
I think the nostalgia for that time period clouds people's perception of what he brought to the table.
what is your criteria for "brought to the table"? as a drummer who played on two albums, he brought just as much as Jack did. More than Dave K did. More than Matt Chamberlain did.
My criteria is a lot more than just the # of albums each guy played on.
IDK how you can ignore the context of where the band was at when each drummer joined. As someone mentioned, Dave A got on a rocket ship as it was taking off. JI arguably saved them from breaking up and inspired them to a new sound and direction.
From that perspective, I would say JI brought way more to the table for PJ than Dave A.
And Jack took over FROM Dave A. They got to the verge of breakup with him in the band. Not saying it’s his fault but his presence wasn’t helping the way Jack’s did.
Dave A wrote a couple great songs for them, for sure. Despite that. his contribution to this band has been greatly over romanticized, and to sociopearljam's point, not even remotely relative to the amount of discussion or agita it's generated.
He's good, but I wouldn't call him a great drummer... he's certainly no better than the 4th best to have played for this band.
does this also then apply to Jack?
Dave actually was with them when they were still playing small clubs, as Gern pointed out. It's not super typical for a drummer to contribute to songwriting. I'm not one of "they should get dave back in the band" people, but his contributions shouldn't be limited just because of the time period he was in the band. I mean, people are also talking about Dave K, who was in the band an even shorter time and only drummed on 1 record.
Your point about Dave's contributions not being limited because of the timing works both ways... it shouldn't be overstated because of the timing either, The follow up albums to Ten were going to happen regardless of who was behind the kit. One can argue they may not have been as big as they were if they had a different drummer, but based on the success of Ten, we can assume at least VS still would have done pretty damn well.
Do No Code and Yield happen without Jack? Does PJ even continue as a band if he doesn't show up? There's a lot less certainty there, I think.
Regarding your last point, I'm not one of the people clamoring for Dave K (that has me scratching my head)... I'm not clamoring for ANY of their past drummers to return. I don't want sentimentality to factor into where they go next.
for sure, I just think for people to question why he keeps getting brought up-well, I think it's pretty obvious-he drummed on the Ten tour, he played and helped create VS and Vitalogy, which is pretty heavy nostalgia for a lot of people (I'd say most fans say the first 3 records is their favourite period). MANY folks dropped off after Dave was fired, not because he was fired, but because they didn't like the change in style. Some people just prefer his drumming-totally subjective. I don't think No Code or Yield happen without Jack-Dave's style just wouldn't have suited that writing.
I don't think his contributions are overstated, honestly. I think people just talk about him the most because of the circumstances surrounding his departure and my points above.
I think the nostalgia for that time period clouds people's perception of what he brought to the table.
what is your criteria for "brought to the table"? as a drummer who played on two albums, he brought just as much as Jack did. More than Dave K did. More than Matt Chamberlain did.
My criteria is a lot more than just the # of albums each guy played on.
IDK how you can ignore the context of where the band was at when each drummer joined. As someone mentioned, Dave A got on a rocket ship as it was taking off. JI arguably saved them from breaking up and inspired them to a new sound and direction.
From that perspective, I would say JI brought way more to the table for PJ than Dave A.
it wasn't a rocketship when he joined. he joined before the band was known. it took nearly a full year for the band to blow up after Ten was released.
Hugh Freaking Dillon is currently out of the office, returning sometime in the fall
Dave A wrote a couple great songs for them, for sure. Despite that. his contribution to this band has been greatly over romanticized, and to sociopearljam's point, not even remotely relative to the amount of discussion or agita it's generated.
He's good, but I wouldn't call him a great drummer... he's certainly no better than the 4th best to have played for this band.
does this also then apply to Jack?
Dave actually was with them when they were still playing small clubs, as Gern pointed out. It's not super typical for a drummer to contribute to songwriting. I'm not one of "they should get dave back in the band" people, but his contributions shouldn't be limited just because of the time period he was in the band. I mean, people are also talking about Dave K, who was in the band an even shorter time and only drummed on 1 record.
Your point about Dave's contributions not being limited because of the timing works both ways... it shouldn't be overstated because of the timing either, The follow up albums to Ten were going to happen regardless of who was behind the kit. One can argue they may not have been as big as they were if they had a different drummer, but based on the success of Ten, we can assume at least VS still would have done pretty damn well.
Do No Code and Yield happen without Jack? Does PJ even continue as a band if he doesn't show up? There's a lot less certainty there, I think.
Regarding your last point, I'm not one of the people clamoring for Dave K (that has me scratching my head)... I'm not clamoring for ANY of their past drummers to return. I don't want sentimentality to factor into where they go next.
for sure, I just think for people to question why he keeps getting brought up-well, I think it's pretty obvious-he drummed on the Ten tour, he played and helped create VS and Vitalogy, which is pretty heavy nostalgia for a lot of people (I'd say most fans say the first 3 records is their favourite period). MANY folks dropped off after Dave was fired, not because he was fired, but because they didn't like the change in style. Some people just prefer his drumming-totally subjective. I don't think No Code or Yield happen without Jack-Dave's style just wouldn't have suited that writing.
I don't think his contributions are overstated, honestly. I think people just talk about him the most because of the circumstances surrounding his departure and my points above.
I think the nostalgia for that time period clouds people's perception of what he brought to the table.
It’s not just nostalgia, it’s arguably 2 of their best albums he was on. If there wasn’t a vs and vitalogy, there might not be a RRHOF. It was their most successful period. It’s hard to ignore the guy when he was partially responsible for their best and most successful period of music. I can see why he’s bitter about the HOF, I would be too. That being said, if he was fired over personal conflicts and they haven’t been in touch for 30 years, no reason to think it’d be any better now. Seeing him back would be awesome, but only if the band feels that way too. Doubt they do.
Dave A wrote a couple great songs for them, for sure. Despite that. his contribution to this band has been greatly over romanticized, and to sociopearljam's point, not even remotely relative to the amount of discussion or agita it's generated.
He's good, but I wouldn't call him a great drummer... he's certainly no better than the 4th best to have played for this band.
does this also then apply to Jack?
Dave actually was with them when they were still playing small clubs, as Gern pointed out. It's not super typical for a drummer to contribute to songwriting. I'm not one of "they should get dave back in the band" people, but his contributions shouldn't be limited just because of the time period he was in the band. I mean, people are also talking about Dave K, who was in the band an even shorter time and only drummed on 1 record.
Your point about Dave's contributions not being limited because of the timing works both ways... it shouldn't be overstated because of the timing either, The follow up albums to Ten were going to happen regardless of who was behind the kit. One can argue they may not have been as big as they were if they had a different drummer, but based on the success of Ten, we can assume at least VS still would have done pretty damn well.
Do No Code and Yield happen without Jack? Does PJ even continue as a band if he doesn't show up? There's a lot less certainty there, I think.
Regarding your last point, I'm not one of the people clamoring for Dave K (that has me scratching my head)... I'm not clamoring for ANY of their past drummers to return. I don't want sentimentality to factor into where they go next.
for sure, I just think for people to question why he keeps getting brought up-well, I think it's pretty obvious-he drummed on the Ten tour, he played and helped create VS and Vitalogy, which is pretty heavy nostalgia for a lot of people (I'd say most fans say the first 3 records is their favourite period). MANY folks dropped off after Dave was fired, not because he was fired, but because they didn't like the change in style. Some people just prefer his drumming-totally subjective. I don't think No Code or Yield happen without Jack-Dave's style just wouldn't have suited that writing.
I don't think his contributions are overstated, honestly. I think people just talk about him the most because of the circumstances surrounding his departure and my points above.
I think the nostalgia for that time period clouds people's perception of what he brought to the table.
what is your criteria for "brought to the table"? as a drummer who played on two albums, he brought just as much as Jack did. More than Dave K did. More than Matt Chamberlain did.
My criteria is a lot more than just the # of albums each guy played on.
IDK how you can ignore the context of where the band was at when each drummer joined. As someone mentioned, Dave A got on a rocket ship as it was taking off. JI arguably saved them from breaking up and inspired them to a new sound and direction.
From that perspective, I would say JI brought way more to the table for PJ than Dave A.
it wasn't a rocketship when he joined. he joined before the band was known. it took nearly a full year for the band to blow up after Ten was released.
Do you think Ten doesn’t take off the way it did if they don’t hire Dave A?
He’s a textbook example of right place / right time.
Dave A wrote a couple great songs for them, for sure. Despite that. his contribution to this band has been greatly over romanticized, and to sociopearljam's point, not even remotely relative to the amount of discussion or agita it's generated.
He's good, but I wouldn't call him a great drummer... he's certainly no better than the 4th best to have played for this band.
does this also then apply to Jack?
Dave actually was with them when they were still playing small clubs, as Gern pointed out. It's not super typical for a drummer to contribute to songwriting. I'm not one of "they should get dave back in the band" people, but his contributions shouldn't be limited just because of the time period he was in the band. I mean, people are also talking about Dave K, who was in the band an even shorter time and only drummed on 1 record.
Your point about Dave's contributions not being limited because of the timing works both ways... it shouldn't be overstated because of the timing either, The follow up albums to Ten were going to happen regardless of who was behind the kit. One can argue they may not have been as big as they were if they had a different drummer, but based on the success of Ten, we can assume at least VS still would have done pretty damn well.
Do No Code and Yield happen without Jack? Does PJ even continue as a band if he doesn't show up? There's a lot less certainty there, I think.
Regarding your last point, I'm not one of the people clamoring for Dave K (that has me scratching my head)... I'm not clamoring for ANY of their past drummers to return. I don't want sentimentality to factor into where they go next.
for sure, I just think for people to question why he keeps getting brought up-well, I think it's pretty obvious-he drummed on the Ten tour, he played and helped create VS and Vitalogy, which is pretty heavy nostalgia for a lot of people (I'd say most fans say the first 3 records is their favourite period). MANY folks dropped off after Dave was fired, not because he was fired, but because they didn't like the change in style. Some people just prefer his drumming-totally subjective. I don't think No Code or Yield happen without Jack-Dave's style just wouldn't have suited that writing.
I don't think his contributions are overstated, honestly. I think people just talk about him the most because of the circumstances surrounding his departure and my points above.
I think the nostalgia for that time period clouds people's perception of what he brought to the table.
It’s not just nostalgia, it’s arguably 2 of their best albums he was on. If there wasn’t a vs and vitalogy, there might not be a RRHOF. It was their most successful period. It’s hard to ignore the guy when he was partially responsible for their best and most successful period of music. I can see why he’s bitter about the HOF, I would be too. That being said, if he was fired over personal conflicts and they haven’t been in touch for 30 years, no reason to think it’d be any better now. Seeing him back would be awesome, but only if the band feels that way too. Doubt they do.
Yeah… Two albums that would have happened regardless of who the drummer was.
Idk who’s ignoring the guy, I’m sure not… I just don’t think he was a lynchpin for their success, at least not enough to warrant so much fuss.
Dave A wrote a couple great songs for them, for sure. Despite that. his contribution to this band has been greatly over romanticized, and to sociopearljam's point, not even remotely relative to the amount of discussion or agita it's generated.
He's good, but I wouldn't call him a great drummer... he's certainly no better than the 4th best to have played for this band.
does this also then apply to Jack?
Dave actually was with them when they were still playing small clubs, as Gern pointed out. It's not super typical for a drummer to contribute to songwriting. I'm not one of "they should get dave back in the band" people, but his contributions shouldn't be limited just because of the time period he was in the band. I mean, people are also talking about Dave K, who was in the band an even shorter time and only drummed on 1 record.
Your point about Dave's contributions not being limited because of the timing works both ways... it shouldn't be overstated because of the timing either, The follow up albums to Ten were going to happen regardless of who was behind the kit. One can argue they may not have been as big as they were if they had a different drummer, but based on the success of Ten, we can assume at least VS still would have done pretty damn well.
Do No Code and Yield happen without Jack? Does PJ even continue as a band if he doesn't show up? There's a lot less certainty there, I think.
Regarding your last point, I'm not one of the people clamoring for Dave K (that has me scratching my head)... I'm not clamoring for ANY of their past drummers to return. I don't want sentimentality to factor into where they go next.
for sure, I just think for people to question why he keeps getting brought up-well, I think it's pretty obvious-he drummed on the Ten tour, he played and helped create VS and Vitalogy, which is pretty heavy nostalgia for a lot of people (I'd say most fans say the first 3 records is their favourite period). MANY folks dropped off after Dave was fired, not because he was fired, but because they didn't like the change in style. Some people just prefer his drumming-totally subjective. I don't think No Code or Yield happen without Jack-Dave's style just wouldn't have suited that writing.
I don't think his contributions are overstated, honestly. I think people just talk about him the most because of the circumstances surrounding his departure and my points above.
I think the nostalgia for that time period clouds people's perception of what he brought to the table.
what is your criteria for "brought to the table"? as a drummer who played on two albums, he brought just as much as Jack did. More than Dave K did. More than Matt Chamberlain did.
My criteria is a lot more than just the # of albums each guy played on.
IDK how you can ignore the context of where the band was at when each drummer joined. As someone mentioned, Dave A got on a rocket ship as it was taking off. JI arguably saved them from breaking up and inspired them to a new sound and direction.
From that perspective, I would say JI brought way more to the table for PJ than Dave A.
it wasn't a rocketship when he joined. he joined before the band was known. it took nearly a full year for the band to blow up after Ten was released.
Do you think Ten doesn’t take off the way it did if they don’t hire Dave A?
He’s a textbook example of right place / right time.
now you're changing the argument. Yes, he was right place right time, no doubt. But people were claiming he wasn't "in the trenches with the band" that he joined when they were already famous. Not true. He played the small shitty clubs with them. Of course it still would have taken off, but to say he joined when the band were already famous is false.
Hugh Freaking Dillon is currently out of the office, returning sometime in the fall
I think you could have replaced Dave a with any other drummer at the time and pearl jam would have still gotten way famous. However if jack irons didn’t enter the picture then there is a great possibility pj could have broken up thirty years ago.
Dave A wrote a couple great songs for them, for sure. Despite that. his contribution to this band has been greatly over romanticized, and to sociopearljam's point, not even remotely relative to the amount of discussion or agita it's generated.
He's good, but I wouldn't call him a great drummer... he's certainly no better than the 4th best to have played for this band.
does this also then apply to Jack?
Dave actually was with them when they were still playing small clubs, as Gern pointed out. It's not super typical for a drummer to contribute to songwriting. I'm not one of "they should get dave back in the band" people, but his contributions shouldn't be limited just because of the time period he was in the band. I mean, people are also talking about Dave K, who was in the band an even shorter time and only drummed on 1 record.
Your point about Dave's contributions not being limited because of the timing works both ways... it shouldn't be overstated because of the timing either, The follow up albums to Ten were going to happen regardless of who was behind the kit. One can argue they may not have been as big as they were if they had a different drummer, but based on the success of Ten, we can assume at least VS still would have done pretty damn well.
Do No Code and Yield happen without Jack? Does PJ even continue as a band if he doesn't show up? There's a lot less certainty there, I think.
Regarding your last point, I'm not one of the people clamoring for Dave K (that has me scratching my head)... I'm not clamoring for ANY of their past drummers to return. I don't want sentimentality to factor into where they go next.
for sure, I just think for people to question why he keeps getting brought up-well, I think it's pretty obvious-he drummed on the Ten tour, he played and helped create VS and Vitalogy, which is pretty heavy nostalgia for a lot of people (I'd say most fans say the first 3 records is their favourite period). MANY folks dropped off after Dave was fired, not because he was fired, but because they didn't like the change in style. Some people just prefer his drumming-totally subjective. I don't think No Code or Yield happen without Jack-Dave's style just wouldn't have suited that writing.
I don't think his contributions are overstated, honestly. I think people just talk about him the most because of the circumstances surrounding his departure and my points above.
I think the nostalgia for that time period clouds people's perception of what he brought to the table.
what is your criteria for "brought to the table"? as a drummer who played on two albums, he brought just as much as Jack did. More than Dave K did. More than Matt Chamberlain did.
My criteria is a lot more than just the # of albums each guy played on.
IDK how you can ignore the context of where the band was at when each drummer joined. As someone mentioned, Dave A got on a rocket ship as it was taking off. JI arguably saved them from breaking up and inspired them to a new sound and direction.
From that perspective, I would say JI brought way more to the table for PJ than Dave A.
it wasn't a rocketship when he joined. he joined before the band was known. it took nearly a full year for the band to blow up after Ten was released.
Do you think Ten doesn’t take off the way it did if they don’t hire Dave A?
He’s a textbook example of right place / right time.
now you're changing the argument. Yes, he was right place right time, no doubt. But people were claiming he wasn't "in the trenches with the band" that he joined when they were already famous. Not true. He played the small shitty clubs with them. Of course it still would have taken off, but to say he joined when the band were already famous is false.
Whose argument am I changing?
I agree, to suggest they were already famous when he joined is false… that’s not my argument.
they would have gotten famous with Ten for SURE. But Dave's drumming on VS especially was significant and helped propel them to that next stage.
Disagree completely. This band got big primarily because of one person and that person is Ed.
But the music for Ten was primarily written by Stone and Jeff. It was never just about Ed, as talented, charismatic, pretty and wonderful lyricist he is.
they would have gotten famous with Ten for SURE. But Dave's drumming on VS especially was significant and helped propel them to that next stage.
Disagree completely. This band got big primarily because of one person and that person is Ed.
But the music for Ten was primarily written by Stone and Jeff. It was never just about Ed, as talented, charismatic, pretty and wonderful lyricist he is.
But it was his voice and looks that was the driving force.
they would have gotten famous with Ten for SURE. But Dave's drumming on VS especially was significant and helped propel them to that next stage.
Disagree completely. This band got big primarily because of one person and that person is Ed.
But the music for Ten was primarily written by Stone and Jeff. It was never just about Ed, as talented, charismatic, pretty and wonderful lyricist he is.
But it was his voice and looks that was the driving force.
Comments
The shotgun marriage was the fact the band was already playing shows to support their debut album. There really wasn't a ton of room for a deliberative process. He came at Chamberlain's recommendation and they needed a drummer. And, they were in the studio for Vs. relatively quickly (by today's standards). He wasn't their guy. He was just a guy. Sometimes that works out. Sometimes it doesn't.
i wish i wish i wish i wish, i guess it never stops
Do No Code and Yield happen without Jack? Does PJ even continue as a band if he doesn't show up? There's a lot less certainty there, I think.
Regarding your last point, I'm not one of the people clamoring for Dave K (that has me scratching my head)... I'm not clamoring for ANY of their past drummers to return. I don't want sentimentality to factor into where they go next.
I don't think his contributions are overstated, honestly. I think people just talk about him the most because of the circumstances surrounding his departure and my points above.
I think Dave is perversely enjoying reading everything that continues to be said about him in this forum.
Taking the time to write a statement asking people to stop requesting his return to the band is pathetic.
But at the same time, it reveals his need for attention — which we’re serving to him on a silver platter.
Myself included.
IDK how you can ignore the context of where the band was at when each drummer joined. As someone mentioned, Dave A got on a rocket ship as it was taking off. JI arguably saved them from breaking up and inspired them to a new sound and direction.
From that perspective, I would say JI brought way more to the table for PJ than Dave A.
.I know I could and would have much to contribute if indeed the call came, but sadly, I don't see that happening
It’s hard to ignore the guy when he was partially responsible for their best and most successful period of music. I can see why he’s bitter about the HOF, I would be too.
That being said, if he was fired over personal conflicts and they haven’t been in touch for 30 years, no reason to think it’d be any better now. Seeing him back would be awesome, but only if the band feels that way too. Doubt they do.
After PJ what was the best/well known band Dave A played in?
He’s a textbook example of right place / right time.
jam would have still gotten way famous. However if jack irons didn’t enter the picture then there is a great possibility pj could have broken up thirty years ago.