End of the American Republic?

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  • With less than 14 days or two weeks until election day, I reluctantly post why I believe POOTWH will win the election. None of my reasons are sole determining factors but taken together as a collective, its too much for Kamala and the dems to overcome. In a nutshell, its death by a thousand cuts, cuts of peeling away just a slight percentage of a chosen demographic in a few key districts in a few key states. Again, any one of which wouldn’t be fatal but taken together as a whole give POOTWH the electoral college and not the popular vote. I’m posting this in this thread because I believe it will result in the end of this uniquely American experiment. I think we’re headed into some very dark times, regardless, but especially when the revenge tour begins and Project 2025 is implemented.

    I hope I’m wrong, I really do. I meditate to turtle that I’m wrong and hope to be proven so. In no particular order:

    1. Israel

    POOTWH will garner enough of the Jewish vote in PA, MI and AZ to aid in his winning those states’ electoral votes. While the Jewish vote makes up approximately 5% of the electorate and overwhelmingly identify with the dems, there are enough Orthodox/Hasidic Bibi supporters and previously dems who will vote POOTWH out of support for Bibi and not allowing a two-state solution and/or in the belief that Kamala will abandon Israel and side with the Palestinians. They’ll help make a difference in PA, MI and AZ, keeping those from going blue and keeping Flo Rida red. 1-3% additional Jewish voters vote POOTWH.

    2. Palestine

    Kamala will or has already lost 1-2% of dems and a sizable portion of the Muslim vote, particularly in MI, over Brandon’s unlimited support for Israel, despite the atrocities. The loss of the Muslim vote will be telling as they either stay home, vote third party or vote POOTWH because they identify more closely with authoritarian rule and figure POOTWH can’t be worse than Brandon with his treatment of Palestinians. Kamala will be seen as having sided with Israel and was not forceful or influential enough to reduce the carnage. This will help MI, WI, AZ and NV turn red and NC stay red. It may also flip MN to red as well.

    3. Surburban Women Voters

    Abortion is not the primary concern to suburban women voters. Rather its economics, household budget, and crime, or the perception thereof. As a result, they won’t vote for Kamala in substantially large enough numbers to make up for the other electoral losses that Kamala will face. Also, suburban women are also more likely to vote their religion and vote in general. Poorer, middle class and lower, middle-class women will not turn out at a high enough rate to make up the difference, particularly in fly over country of the swing states. Faux News has a lot of suburban women voters watching and they’ll vote their checkbook and security. Expect POOTWH to gain 3-5% with these voters over 2020 vote totals.

    4. The Billionaire Class

    This will be one of the biggest factors that will determine the outcome as billionaires “don’t lose.” They are heavily invested in POOTWH and his potential tax, economic, administrative and social policies. What do you do for fun when you have 5 or 6 houses on 4 continents, a luxury yacht or two, a private jet and more money than you can ever spend? You buy influence to remake society and business, that benefits you personally, and cos play being God. Elongitaint’s twatter pushing mis and dis-information, $100s of millions in dark money to buy field work and advertising, giving away a million dollars a day to influence voters and nothing is stopping any of it. ‘Muricans should be outraged and embarrassed but they are not. They defend it. Add in Rupert Murdick, Adelson, Steve Wynn-Loss, Perlbutter, Mellonhead and former SBA head and WWF mogul McMahon and you have enough money to purchase the legit side of politics but also the dirty trickster side of politics (think Roger Dodger Stoned). Also, consider the cumulative effect of these folks funding the right-wing policy promoters and conservative colleges and universities to lay the groundwork for judicial nominees and things like Project 2025. Its too much to overcome with record amounts of small donor donations. Faux News and Murdicks other media outlets alone have rotted enough brains over the past 35 years or so. And yes, dems raise tons of sums from billionaires but the difference is that they are not looking for something in return, other than a cushy ambassadorship for the honor, prestige and foreign living experience.

    5. Election Fuckery

    All of that money above can fund election fuckery in the form of court challenges, recounts, intimidation, passing of laws to stifle turnout and votes, voting roll purges, the misinformation that elections aren’t safe and have been stolen, dirty tricks leading up to and including election day, etc. This will have a nominal effect, but it will be in states to ensure they stay red, Flo Rida and Tejas, as do their congressional delegations and in certain districts, precincts that will influence, ever so slightly, the result in swing states, particularly AZ, NV, PA, MI, WI, GA and NC. We are already experiencing it and again, there’s no general outcry nor consequences. Billionaires “don’t lose.”

    6. Social Media and Putin on the Ritz

    The influence of social media to change opinions and influence votes cannot be understated. It is insidious and anyone who has any presence on any social media, including this one, is susceptible to mis and dis-information. Putin on the ritz and his troll farms are in overtime mode and with the AI, their mis-messaging will have even more of an influence, particularly among microcosms of voting demographics. It’ll be directed at rural voters, particularly in swing states and suburban women (think Faceturd), Jews, Muslims and undecideds or less frequent voters. Those without higher levels of education will be more easily influenced with messages tailor made for their niche of the electorate. Putin on the ritz has every reason to see POOTWH elected and will view this time around as a major “foreign war victory” without firing a shot or having a direct confrontation with the US military. The Russia, Russia, Russia hoax is real and will lead to the eventual downfall of the US beginning with this election.

    7. Misinformed, Undereducated and Memory Lapsed

    See above. From grandpa and grandma to the 18–24-year-olds and everyone in-between, this is a real issue as a result of the erosion of critical thinking skills. We see it all the time, even on these boards (today 10-23-2024), where people will parrot right wing media points that have no basis in fact. Or they’ll share their Faceturd feed of agit-prop and consider it the truth. If not, they’ll question it and try to look smart by saying they’re “just asking questions” or “doing their own research,” a la tech or Joe bros. The truth and facts have never been grayer and unfortunately, we see the results in “they’re eating the cats, they’re eating the dogs, they’re eating the pets of the people that live there” and folks threatening FEMA aid workers in hurricane ravaged areas. ‘Murica has gotten much dumber due to the constant sources of misinformation, dis-information, and outright falsehoods. I seen it on the tv/interwebs/podcast/serial/billionaire funded feature length documentary (10,000 Mules, anyone?) so it must be true. This will result in 1-4% points of the youth vote and the same in the 65+ age bracket, which may have more of an impact due to higher turnout rates among the 65+ over the 18-24 demographic, moving to POOTWH or staying home, resulting in a decrease in total % for Kamala, because they’re believing the shit information or they’re afraid of the “other.” A significant percentage of the ‘Murican voting block has a very short-term memory and as a result will collectively forget all of the transgressions that POOTWH committed over the past 10 years but remember Obama’s missing lapel flag pin or tan suit or that Kamala wears the same earrings every day. The flood of cray-cray is dismissed as a result and is ineffectual.

    8. Youth Vote (18-24)

    One of the most consistently unreliable voter demographics. Because of the above and the voter suppression efforts, in addition to the hype that POOTWH is a strong man, survived an assassination attempt (think Ronny Rayguns standing at the hospital window) and has never “lost” (POOTWH has never admitted defeat and the election was stolen, remember?), they’ll give a “winner” (fight, fight, fight) POOTWH that 1-4% or Kamala will see 1-4% less votes from this demographic. If they have not mailed in a ballot or participated in early voting yet, you won’t see massive numbers on election day and if you do, they’re more likely to break for POOTWH. Apathy, misinformation, disinformation and life will get in the way.

    9. Judiciary and Courts

    I anticipate that any close vote totals in any precinct and in any of the swing states will result in court challenges, perhaps all the way to SCOTUS. Once there, it will be decided in POOTWH’s favor. The pressure on Kamala to concede will be immense. The amount of money and lawyers to argue before state/federal courts will pour in. Judge shopping will take place, and it will result in a period of chaos. Again, billionaires “don’t lose.” There will be court challenges to ballots and results, and they will have influence in key races, precincts and swing states.

    10. Racism, Misogyny and Religion

    A large and significant portion of the electorate is not ready, nor may they ever be, for a woman POTUS, particularly one of color and mixed race. This is evident in the total number of votes POOTWH received in 2020 and in a lack of erosion in his support despite all the batshit crazy, particularly racist and misogynist, things he’s uttered in the last few weeks and 9+ years. But its deeper than that as we have always known about his base and “very fine people on both sides.” This is due to evangelical women, and other religions’ voters deferring to their religious beliefs that a woman should be subservient to a man, a belief among men that woman are not strong, effective leaders and shouldn’t be in positions of power managing/overseeing men and fear of the “other.” Minorities and immigrants are responsible for crime, and they need to be locked up and/or deported. This is a widely held belief among middle and upper-middle class suburban and rural voters, pushed by the right wing and putin on the ritz. Suburban women will be bombarded with this messaging. Hispanics are overwhelmingly catholic and value their religion and family values, as well as having a “macho, strong man” at the helm. The abortion issue will break more toward Hispanics voting in larger percentages than in 2020 for POOTWH and the pro-life stance. Taking these three reasons together and you have another 1-5% of a demographic (Hispanic, religious, racist) that will pull the lever for POOTWH.

    Conclusion

    POOTWH wins the electoral college 305-233 for the combination of the 10 factors I listed (apparently the same outcome as 2016 when I did my interactive electoral college map and then looked what 2016 looked like), but loses the popular vote, and begins the revenge tour by making inflammatory and aggressive statements regarding revenge and going after his enemies, real and imagined, as soon as he hits 270. There will be no contriteness or being a good sport. The resulting 4 years will be a nightmare, particularly when JD Byryder is sworn in sometime in 2027. Eventually, this leads to the end of the American Republic and our unique experiment in democracy, E Pluribus Unum. Death by 1,000 cuts.

    Again, I really hope I’m completely and totally wrong on this but I’m not liking how the wind is blowing and feeling. Shits going to get ugly. Good luck.


    09/15/1998 & 09/16/1998, Mansfield, MA; 08/29/00 08/30/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/27/2008, Hartford; 06/28/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield; 08/18/2009, O2, London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont; 07/02/2012, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/04/2012 & 07/05/2012, Berlin, Germany; 07/07/2012, Stockholm, Sweden; 09/30/2012, Missoula, MT; 07/16/2013, London, Ont; 07/19/2013, Chicago, IL; 10/15/2013 & 10/16/2013, Worcester, MA; 10/21/2013 & 10/22/2013, Philadelphia, PA; 10/25/2013, Hartford, CT; 11/29/2013, Portland, OR; 11/30/2013, Spokane, WA; 12/04/2013, Vancouver, BC; 12/06/2013, Seattle, WA; 10/03/2014, St. Louis. MO; 10/22/2014, Denver, CO; 10/26/2015, New York, NY; 04/23/2016, New Orleans, LA; 04/28/2016 & 04/29/2016, Philadelphia, PA; 05/01/2016 & 05/02/2016, New York, NY; 05/08/2016, Ottawa, Ont.; 05/10/2016 & 05/12/2016, Toronto, Ont.; 08/05/2016 & 08/07/2016, Boston, MA; 08/20/2016 & 08/22/2016, Chicago, IL; 07/01/2018, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/03/2018, Krakow, Poland; 07/05/2018, Berlin, Germany; 09/02/2018 & 09/04/2018, Boston, MA; 09/08/2022, Toronto, Ont; 09/11/2022, New York, NY; 09/14/2022, Camden, NJ; 09/02/2023, St. Paul, MN; 05/04/2024 & 05/06/2024, Vancouver, BC; 05/10/2024, Portland, OR;

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  • 09/15/1998 & 09/16/1998, Mansfield, MA; 08/29/00 08/30/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/27/2008, Hartford; 06/28/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield; 08/18/2009, O2, London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont; 07/02/2012, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/04/2012 & 07/05/2012, Berlin, Germany; 07/07/2012, Stockholm, Sweden; 09/30/2012, Missoula, MT; 07/16/2013, London, Ont; 07/19/2013, Chicago, IL; 10/15/2013 & 10/16/2013, Worcester, MA; 10/21/2013 & 10/22/2013, Philadelphia, PA; 10/25/2013, Hartford, CT; 11/29/2013, Portland, OR; 11/30/2013, Spokane, WA; 12/04/2013, Vancouver, BC; 12/06/2013, Seattle, WA; 10/03/2014, St. Louis. MO; 10/22/2014, Denver, CO; 10/26/2015, New York, NY; 04/23/2016, New Orleans, LA; 04/28/2016 & 04/29/2016, Philadelphia, PA; 05/01/2016 & 05/02/2016, New York, NY; 05/08/2016, Ottawa, Ont.; 05/10/2016 & 05/12/2016, Toronto, Ont.; 08/05/2016 & 08/07/2016, Boston, MA; 08/20/2016 & 08/22/2016, Chicago, IL; 07/01/2018, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/03/2018, Krakow, Poland; 07/05/2018, Berlin, Germany; 09/02/2018 & 09/04/2018, Boston, MA; 09/08/2022, Toronto, Ont; 09/11/2022, New York, NY; 09/14/2022, Camden, NJ; 09/02/2023, St. Paul, MN; 05/04/2024 & 05/06/2024, Vancouver, BC; 05/10/2024, Portland, OR;

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  • brianlux
    brianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 43,662


    If this proves to be true, the many millions of ignorant fools who think this is a great thing are in for a huge surprise.  Be careful what you wish for MAGAs. 
    "It's a sad and beautiful world"
    -Roberto Benigni

  • Choccoloccotide
    Choccoloccotide A grass shack nailed to a pinewood floor Posts: 1,235
    shecky said:
    CONGRATULATIONS DONALD J. TRUMP - THE 47th PRESIDENT of THE UNITED STATES!!!
    Great day for America and the world.  
  • JPPJ84
    JPPJ84 Hamburg, Germany Posts: 3,464
    shecky said:
    CONGRATULATIONS DONALD J. TRUMP - THE 47th PRESIDENT of THE UNITED STATES!!!
    Great day for America and the world.  
    If by world you mean Russia, Israel and China, sure. Great f-ing day 
  • Choccoloccotide
    Choccoloccotide A grass shack nailed to a pinewood floor Posts: 1,235
    JPPJ84 said:
    shecky said:
    CONGRATULATIONS DONALD J. TRUMP - THE 47th PRESIDENT of THE UNITED STATES!!!
    Great day for America and the world.  
    If by world you mean Russia, Israel and China, sure. Great f-ing day 
    Trump is gonna end these forever wars and bring peace to the world again like he did in 2016.  
  • F Me In The Brain
    F Me In The Brain this knows everybody from other commets Posts: 31,809
    JPPJ84 said:
    shecky said:
    CONGRATULATIONS DONALD J. TRUMP - THE 47th PRESIDENT of THE UNITED STATES!!!
    Great day for America and the world.  
    If by world you mean Russia, Israel and China, sure. Great f-ing day 
    Trump is gonna end these forever wars and bring peace to the world again like he did in 2016.  
    History, much?
    We were at war for the actual entirety of 2016-2020.


    Your guy won.  Props.  I hope things get better for everyone.  💯 

    However the statement you made is flat wrong.


    The love he receives is the love that is saved
  • JPPJ84
    JPPJ84 Hamburg, Germany Posts: 3,464
    JPPJ84 said:
    shecky said:
    CONGRATULATIONS DONALD J. TRUMP - THE 47th PRESIDENT of THE UNITED STATES!!!
    Great day for America and the world.  
    If by world you mean Russia, Israel and China, sure. Great f-ing day 
    Trump is gonna end these forever wars and bring peace to the world again like he did in 2016.  
    if you say so…
  • Ledbetterman10
    Ledbetterman10 Posts: 16,994
    edited November 2024
    Looks like he’s now both “POOTHW” and “FOOTHW.”  
    2000: Camden 1, 2003: Philly, State College, Camden 1, MSG 2, Hershey, 2004: Reading, 2005: Philly, 2006: Camden 1, 2, East Rutherford 1, 2007: Lollapalooza, 2008: Camden 1, Washington D.C., MSG 1, 2, 2009: Philly 1, 2, 3, 4, 2010: Bristol, MSG 2, 2011: PJ20 1, 2, 2012: Made In America, 2013: Brooklyn 2, Philly 2, 2014: Denver, 2015: Global Citizen Festival, 2016: Philly 2, Fenway 1, 2018: Fenway 1, 2, 2021: Sea. Hear. Now. 2022: Camden, 2024Philly 2, 2025: Pittsburgh 1

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  • F Me In The Brain
    F Me In The Brain this knows everybody from other commets Posts: 31,809
    edited November 2024
    Yuck
    The love he receives is the love that is saved
  • Lerxst1992
    Lerxst1992 Posts: 7,860
    JPPJ84 said:
    shecky said:
    CONGRATULATIONS DONALD J. TRUMP - THE 47th PRESIDENT of THE UNITED STATES!!!
    Great day for America and the world.  
    If by world you mean Russia, Israel and China, sure. Great f-ing day 
    Trump is gonna end these forever wars and bring peace to the world again like he did in 2016.  
    History, much?
    We were at war for the actual entirety of 2016-2020.


    Your guy won.  Props.  I hope things get better for everyone.  💯 

    However the statement you made is flat wrong.



    Your theme of conciliation is proper but your need to correct their statements is what’s so frustrating. On so many levels Americans don’t make any sense. The victory lap posts we are seeing from republicans that are purely false, in the wake of his victory, magnify that problem. 
  • Lerxst1992
    Lerxst1992 Posts: 7,860
    Looks like he’s now both “POOTHW” and “FOOTHW.”  

    And for the rest of his life, COOTWH
  • josevolution
    josevolution Posts: 31,595
    JPPJ84 said:
    shecky said:
    CONGRATULATIONS DONALD J. TRUMP - THE 47th PRESIDENT of THE UNITED STATES!!!
    Great day for America and the world.  
    If by world you mean Russia, Israel and China, sure. Great f-ing day 
    Trump is gonna end these forever wars and bring peace to the world again like he did in 2016.  
    Good luck collecting SS when you retire! Say goodbye to Palestine and Ukraine 
    jesus greets me looks just like me ....
  • GlowGirl
    GlowGirl New York, NY Posts: 12,080
    Looks like he’s now both “POOTHW” and “FOOTHW.”  
    🤮
  • Some folks could learn a thing or two by reading through this thread, particularly the warning.

    09/15/1998 & 09/16/1998, Mansfield, MA; 08/29/00 08/30/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/27/2008, Hartford; 06/28/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield; 08/18/2009, O2, London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont; 07/02/2012, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/04/2012 & 07/05/2012, Berlin, Germany; 07/07/2012, Stockholm, Sweden; 09/30/2012, Missoula, MT; 07/16/2013, London, Ont; 07/19/2013, Chicago, IL; 10/15/2013 & 10/16/2013, Worcester, MA; 10/21/2013 & 10/22/2013, Philadelphia, PA; 10/25/2013, Hartford, CT; 11/29/2013, Portland, OR; 11/30/2013, Spokane, WA; 12/04/2013, Vancouver, BC; 12/06/2013, Seattle, WA; 10/03/2014, St. Louis. MO; 10/22/2014, Denver, CO; 10/26/2015, New York, NY; 04/23/2016, New Orleans, LA; 04/28/2016 & 04/29/2016, Philadelphia, PA; 05/01/2016 & 05/02/2016, New York, NY; 05/08/2016, Ottawa, Ont.; 05/10/2016 & 05/12/2016, Toronto, Ont.; 08/05/2016 & 08/07/2016, Boston, MA; 08/20/2016 & 08/22/2016, Chicago, IL; 07/01/2018, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/03/2018, Krakow, Poland; 07/05/2018, Berlin, Germany; 09/02/2018 & 09/04/2018, Boston, MA; 09/08/2022, Toronto, Ont; 09/11/2022, New York, NY; 09/14/2022, Camden, NJ; 09/02/2023, St. Paul, MN; 05/04/2024 & 05/06/2024, Vancouver, BC; 05/10/2024, Portland, OR;

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  • OnWis97
    OnWis97 St. Paul, MN Posts: 5,610
    I wasn't exactly sure where to put this and didn't think it would stick around as it's own thread.

    https://map.barbarabush.org/

    According to "barbarbush.org" just over half of US adults (age 16 to 74) do not read at or above a 6th grade level. This can't be a good thing for the health of the Republic.  MAGA loves this stat.
    1995 Milwaukee     1998 Alpine, Alpine     2003 Albany, Boston, Boston, Boston     2004 Boston, Boston     2006 Hartford, St. Paul (Petty), St. Paul (Petty)     2011 Alpine, Alpine     
    2013 Wrigley     2014 St. Paul     2016 Fenway, Fenway, Wrigley, Wrigley     2018 Missoula, Wrigley, Wrigley     2021 Asbury Park     2022 St Louis     2023 Austin, Austin
    2024 Napa, Wrigley, Wrigley
  • Gern Blansten
    Gern Blansten Mar-A-Lago Posts: 22,178
    OnWis97 said:
    I wasn't exactly sure where to put this and didn't think it would stick around as it's own thread.

    https://map.barbarabush.org/

    According to "barbarbush.org" just over half of US adults (age 16 to 74) do not read at or above a 6th grade level. This can't be a good thing for the health of the Republic.  MAGA loves this stat.
    I believe it. I grew up in Ohio and follow a few facebook pages from my old hometown. To see the grammar of some of my high school classmates is just outrageous. 
    Remember the Thomas Nine !! (10/02/2018)
    The Golden Age is 2 months away. And guess what….. you’re gonna love it! (teskeinc 11.19.24)

    1998: Noblesville; 2003: Noblesville; 2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago
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  • Here’s what it looks like “in the weeds.” The concern, as two posts above illustrate, is that the average voter doesn’t have a clue, nor the critical thinking skills to understand what it means for them. But here we are. I don’t expect any intelligent response from the POOTWH’ers or “indies” on here to the below, seeing how they can’t articulate what makes ‘Murica “the greatest country on earth”, even suggesting to posit the contrary is unacceptable, or what positive, measurable impact four more years of MAGA will have. Just wait until the 2 trillion in cuts take effect. Oh well.

    Opinion 

     Four ways Trump will undermine the authority of Congress

    The president-elect is setting the stage for a vast, dangerous and unconstitutional expansion of presidential power


    While a worried nation tries to make sense of Donald Trump’s spate of unqualified, extreme nominees, the president-elect is setting the stage for an even more alarming takeover: a vast, dangerous and unconstitutional expansion of presidential power. This agenda includes not just emasculating the Senate’s advice-and-consent role but also refusing to spend money that lawmakers have appropriated, curbing the independence of federal regulatory agencies and eviscerating the nonpartisan civil service.

    Political appointees, however appalling, come and go, and the worst of Trump’s picks should be stopped. But we cannot lose sight of more enduring perils to democracy. These aren’t just bad policies (Trump has plenty of those, starting with his threat to conduct mass deportations); they are structural changes. And once these guardrails are demolished, restoring them will be nearly impossible, and the damage to the constitutional order might be irreparable.

    This might sound overstated — I hope it is. Congress could frustrate some of Trump’s efforts; more likely, although far from assured, courts could step in. Still, it would be foolish not to consider what his plans might do to our constitutional system of checks and balances.

    George Washington warned against exactly this in his farewell address, advising national leaders to “confine themselves within their respective constitutional spheres; avoiding in the exercise of the Powers of one department to encroach upon another.” That “spirit of encroachment,” Washington cautioned, “tends to consolidate the powers of all the departments in one, and thus to create, whatever the form of government, a real despotism.”

    A real despotism. “I have an Article 2, where I have the right to do whatever I want as president,” Trump asserted during his first term. Now he is poised to test the limits of that claim.

    None of this is a secret. To the contrary, the changes are trumpeted in videos on the campaign website, with titles such as “Agenda47: Using Impoundment to Cut Waste, Stop Inflation, and Crush the Deep State” and “Agenda47: President Trump’s Plan to Dismantle the Deep State and Return Power to the American People.”

    The nation cannot afford to ignore what is going on here. “Constitutionally speaking, we are in the fight of our lives,” Rep. Jamie Raskin (D-Maryland) told me, and I fear he is correct. What follows is a concerned citizens’ guide to what is coming. These issues might sound arcane; Trump and his allies are no doubt counting on the prospect that the public will tune out. But we should not avert our eyes.

    Expanding recess appointments. This might be the most audacious of Trump’s efforts to enlarge presidential authority at the expense of Congress. “Any Republican Senator seeking the coveted LEADERSHIP position in the United States Senate must agree to Recess Appointments (in the Senate!), without which we will not be able to get people confirmed in a timely manner,” Trump posted on X and Truth Social.

    The Constitution explicitly grantspresidents “power to fill up all vacancies that may happen during the recess of the Senate, by granting commissions which shall expire at the end of their next session.” That means a recess appointee can serve for as long as two years without Senate confirmation.

    But this is a horse-and-buggy-era exception to the general rule requiring that the president nominate senior officials “by and with the advice and consent of the Senate.” Until a 2014 Supreme Court ruling, National Labor Relations Board v. Noel Canning,effectively ended the practice, presidents used recess appointments sparingly, mostly in situations where their nominees had languished in a partisan Senate. Now, Trump wants Congress to go into recess so he can engage in a mass end run around the Senate for nominees who might not otherwise win approval.

    If necessary, he would invoke another constitutional provision, never before used, that lets the president “on extraordinary Occasions, convene both Houses, or either of them, and in Case of Disagreement between them, with Respect to the Time of Adjournment, he may adjourn them to such Time as he shall think proper.” In his first term, during the pandemic, Trump threatened to employ this power but never did.

    I find it hard to believe that the Senate would cooperate in this evisceration of its advice-and-consent authority by going into recess. That leaves the question of whether the House, under the craven leadership of Speaker Mike Johnson (R-Louisiana), would comply by declaring a recess to which the Senate would not accede — creating a disagreement between the House and Senate that could open the door for Trump to declare an adjournment. Here, too, there are thin grounds for optimism: the slim House majority, and the presence of enough Republicans who won in swing districts that they might not be willing to cave to Trump’s demand for such extraordinary power.

    But if that were to happen? Under the terms of Noel Canning, Trump would probably get away with it. Noel Canning gave the nod to recess appointments that occur within congressional sessions, not between the two year-long sessions. And it said recess appointments weren’t limited to vacancies created during the recess itself but could also be used for vacancies that arose earlier. Under Noel Canning, as long as there is a recess of at least 10 days, anything goes.

    The tricky part is that the conservative justices — Justice Antonin Scalia, who is now gone, joined by Chief Justice John G. Roberts Jr. and Justices Clarence Thomas and Samuel A. Alito Jr. — disagreed with those aspects of the ruling. Scalia denounced the recess power as an “anachronism” that undermines the separation of powers, writing, “The need it was designed to fill no longer exists, and its only remaining use is the ignoble one of enabling the President to circumvent the Senate’s role in the appointment process.”

    Now there is a six-justice conservative supermajority. Would the conservatives revisit — and overrule — that part of Noel Canning if they had the votes to do so, thereby frustrating Trump’s effort? Or, with the shoe on the other party’s foot (Noel Canning involved President Barack Obama’s recess appointments), would they continue to worry about “ignoble” uses and enabling circumvention of the Senate’s role? I suspect they would stick with the case as decided and let Trump get away with it.

    Impounding appropriated funds. Congress, the Constitution provides, controls the power of the purse: “No money shall be drawn from the Treasury, but in consequence of appropriations made by law.” Lawmakers decide how much to spend and for what purposes; the executive branch acts on their instructions.

    Since the beginning of the republic, this division of labor has proved inconvenient for presidents who don’t want to spend money as Congress has dictated and who have used their asserted power to “impound,” or decline to spend, appropriated funds.

    This tension came to a head during the presidency of Richard M. Nixon: Among other things, he refused to spend half the money allocated to sewage treatment after Congress overrode his veto of the Clean Water Act. In 1974, Congress passed the Impoundment Control Act, which requires the president to spend appropriated money unless he obtains congressional approval not to disburse the funds.

    Trump has vowed to challenge the law as an unconstitutional “usurpation” of presidential power, and said he will direct agencies, on his first day in office, “to identify portions of their budgets where massive savings are possible through the Impoundment Power.”

    “For 200 years under our system of government, it was undisputed that the president had the constitutional power to stop unnecessary spending through what is known as Impoundment,” Trump said in a June 2023 video.

    This is wrong. In 1988, during the Reagan administration, Assistant Attorney General Charles Cooper, head of the Justice Department’s Office of Legal Counsel, concludedthat “to the extent that the commentators are suggesting that the President has inherent, constitutional power to impound funds, the weight of authority is against such a broad power in the face of an express congressional directive to spend.”

    Citing a 1969 memorandum from William H. Rehnquist, then head of the Office of Legal Counsel and later chief justice, Cooper wrote: “This Office has long held that the ‘existence of such a broad power is supported by neither reason nor precedent.’ Virtually all commentators have reached the same conclusion, without reference to their views as to the scope of executive power.”

    The Supreme Court has never directly addressed the question, although, as Cooper’s memo noted, an 1838 case “can be read to support the proposition that the executive’s duty faithfully to execute the laws requires it to spend funds at the direction of Congress,” and lower courts have consistentlyagreed. But I’m not entirely confident that the current Supreme Court majority, with its evident disdain for Congress and commitment to broad executive power, would go along.

    Continues next post

    09/15/1998 & 09/16/1998, Mansfield, MA; 08/29/00 08/30/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/27/2008, Hartford; 06/28/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield; 08/18/2009, O2, London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont; 07/02/2012, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/04/2012 & 07/05/2012, Berlin, Germany; 07/07/2012, Stockholm, Sweden; 09/30/2012, Missoula, MT; 07/16/2013, London, Ont; 07/19/2013, Chicago, IL; 10/15/2013 & 10/16/2013, Worcester, MA; 10/21/2013 & 10/22/2013, Philadelphia, PA; 10/25/2013, Hartford, CT; 11/29/2013, Portland, OR; 11/30/2013, Spokane, WA; 12/04/2013, Vancouver, BC; 12/06/2013, Seattle, WA; 10/03/2014, St. Louis. MO; 10/22/2014, Denver, CO; 10/26/2015, New York, NY; 04/23/2016, New Orleans, LA; 04/28/2016 & 04/29/2016, Philadelphia, PA; 05/01/2016 & 05/02/2016, New York, NY; 05/08/2016, Ottawa, Ont.; 05/10/2016 & 05/12/2016, Toronto, Ont.; 08/05/2016 & 08/07/2016, Boston, MA; 08/20/2016 & 08/22/2016, Chicago, IL; 07/01/2018, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/03/2018, Krakow, Poland; 07/05/2018, Berlin, Germany; 09/02/2018 & 09/04/2018, Boston, MA; 09/08/2022, Toronto, Ont; 09/11/2022, New York, NY; 09/14/2022, Camden, NJ; 09/02/2023, St. Paul, MN; 05/04/2024 & 05/06/2024, Vancouver, BC; 05/10/2024, Portland, OR;

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  • Halifax2TheMax
    Halifax2TheMax Posts: 42,162
    edited November 2024
    Continued from previous post:

    Curbing independent agencies. Starting in the 1880s, Congress established certain government offices as independent agencies, run generally by multimember commissions whose members serve fixed terms, possess particular expertise and are left free to operate outside direct executive control. But conservatives have long chafed at the agencies’ existence, which they consider an unconstitutional “headless fourth branch of government.” They want the president to have power to fire commissioners for any reason — not only for cause, as is the case under current law — and to review their proposed regulations.

    Trump is on board. “I will bring the independent regulatory agencies, such as the FCC and the FTC, back under presidential authority, as the Constitution demands,” he said in an April 2023 video, referring to the Federal Communications Commission and Federal Trade Commission. “These agencies do not get to become a fourth branch of government, issuing rules and edicts all by themselves.”

    What would this mean for such agencies, which also include the Federal Reserve, Securities and Exchange Commission, Commodity Futures Trading Commission, National Labor Relations Board and Consumer Product Safety Commission?

    “What we’re trying to do is identify the pockets of independence and seize them,” Russell Vought, who headed the Office of Management and Budget during the first Trump administration and has been tapped to lead it again in the second, toldthe New York Times last year. Specifically, Vought said, “It’s very hard to square the Fed’s independence with the Constitution.”

    Eliminating the independence of these agencies would reflect a dramatic tilt in favor of presidential authority. There are any number of ways Trump could force the issue. He could attempt to fire Federal Reserve Chair Jerome H. Powell, who said tersely at a post-election news conference that such a move was “not permitted under the law.” (Powell can only be fired for cause.) The Post reported that Trump is considering taking the extraordinary step of firing Democratic members of the National Labor Relations Board; because of the way the labor agency is set up, Democrats are poised to retain majority control until 2026, if the Senate reconfirms the current chair to another term before it leaves town.

    In any event, the issue of the constitutionality of independent agencies appears destined to return to the high court — with or without presidential action.

    In a 1935 case, Humphrey’s Executor v. United States, the court rejected President Franklin D. Roosevelt’s effort to fire William Humphrey, an FTC commissioner, and Roosevelt’s argument that being limited to firing commissioners only “for cause” was an unconstitutional infringement on executive power.

    But Humphrey’s Executor has long been in conservatives’ crosshairs. More than 20 cases raising constitutional challenges to the independent structure of agencies are making their way through the lower federal courts. The justices just declined to hear one such case, but that reticence might not last.

    Bottom line: Don’t bet on independent agencies’ continued insulation from presidential interference.

    Politicizing the civil service. A second term will give Trump the chance for a do-over in his bid to gain authority to remove tens of thousands of “rogue bureaucrats” who currently enjoy protections against being fired for political reasons. He has declared a “Day One” plan to reissue his October 2020 executive order to create a new Schedule F under which the president would have full power to remove any employee “whose position has been determined to be of confidential, policy-determining, policy-making, or policy-advocating character.”

    This change would upend the civil service system, put in place in 1883 to end the spoils system. Currently, there are about 4,000 political appointees atop a federal workforce of 2.2 million. Trump, in his zeal to root out what he calls the “deep state,” would expand presidential power to fire at will an estimated 50,000 or more federal employees, depending on how broadly the exemption is interpreted.

    “I will immediately re-issue my 2020 Executive Order restoring the President’s authority to remove rogue bureaucrats,” Trump announced in a March 2023 video. “And I will wield that power very aggressively.”

    One sign of how sweeping the change could be: After Trump left office, the National Treasury Employees Union unearthed documents that it said showed how the Office of Management and Budget “stretched the definition of policy work to cover the vast majority of the OMB workforce, from attorneys to GS-09 assistants and specialists who have nothing to do with setting government policy.”

    Trump might find it difficult to institute these changes right away. President Joe Biden not only revoked Trump’s Schedule F order but also adopted a new rule to shield federal workers against having their civil service protections removed. Undoing that and issuing new regulations is a cumbersome, time-consuming process.

    The incoming administration might be tempted to act without going through these procedural hoops. Elon Musk and Vivek Ramaswamy suggested as much in a recent Wall Street Journal op-ed, writing that the civil service law leaves Trump room to quickly “implement any number of ‘rules governing the competitive service’ that would curtail administrative overgrowth, from large-scale firings to relocation of federal agencies out of the Washington area.”

    But moving so fast would be risky, as shown by the Trump administration’s loss at the Supreme Court when it did a sloppy legal job of trying to revoke protections, from the Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals program, for immigrant “dreamers.”

    It’s harder to predict how the court would deal with a revived Schedule F on the merits. The Treasury employees union, in a lawsuitchallenging the original Trump order, called it “a textbook example of the President acting contrary to Congress’s express and limited delegation of authority to the President.” Still, a court inclined to a broad reading of executive powers might give the president more authority over firing federal workers.

    In 1952, Supreme Court Justice Robert H. Jackson, previously FDR’s attorney general, warned of the consequences of untrammeled presidential power in concluding that President Harry S. Truman lacked constitutional authority to seize control of steel plants during the Korean War. “The tendency is strong to emphasize transient results upon policies … and lose sight of enduring consequences upon the balanced power structure of our Republic,” Jackson wrote.

    In Jackson’s formulation, a president’s power is “at its lowest ebb” when he “takes measures incompatible with the expressed or implied will of Congress” — the same sort of measures discussed here. “Presidential claim to a power at once so conclusive and preclusive must be scrutinized with caution,” Jackson admonished, “for what is at stake is the equilibrium established by our constitutional system.”

    The examples outlined above aren’t the worst of what Trump could do — or the cruelest or the most extreme. Actions such as separating families, deporting dreamers and using the Justice Department to punish political enemies fall into those two categories. Yet these threatened moves represent assaults on the very architecture of democracy — assaults that must be repelled, as Jackson instructed us, lest they permanently warp the constitutional structure.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2024/11/22/trump-congress-takeover-power/


    Post edited by Halifax2TheMax on
    09/15/1998 & 09/16/1998, Mansfield, MA; 08/29/00 08/30/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/27/2008, Hartford; 06/28/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield; 08/18/2009, O2, London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont; 07/02/2012, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/04/2012 & 07/05/2012, Berlin, Germany; 07/07/2012, Stockholm, Sweden; 09/30/2012, Missoula, MT; 07/16/2013, London, Ont; 07/19/2013, Chicago, IL; 10/15/2013 & 10/16/2013, Worcester, MA; 10/21/2013 & 10/22/2013, Philadelphia, PA; 10/25/2013, Hartford, CT; 11/29/2013, Portland, OR; 11/30/2013, Spokane, WA; 12/04/2013, Vancouver, BC; 12/06/2013, Seattle, WA; 10/03/2014, St. Louis. MO; 10/22/2014, Denver, CO; 10/26/2015, New York, NY; 04/23/2016, New Orleans, LA; 04/28/2016 & 04/29/2016, Philadelphia, PA; 05/01/2016 & 05/02/2016, New York, NY; 05/08/2016, Ottawa, Ont.; 05/10/2016 & 05/12/2016, Toronto, Ont.; 08/05/2016 & 08/07/2016, Boston, MA; 08/20/2016 & 08/22/2016, Chicago, IL; 07/01/2018, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/03/2018, Krakow, Poland; 07/05/2018, Berlin, Germany; 09/02/2018 & 09/04/2018, Boston, MA; 09/08/2022, Toronto, Ont; 09/11/2022, New York, NY; 09/14/2022, Camden, NJ; 09/02/2023, St. Paul, MN; 05/04/2024 & 05/06/2024, Vancouver, BC; 05/10/2024, Portland, OR;

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  • battle1
    battle1 PHI Posts: 637
    Continued from previous post:

    Curbing independent agencies. Starting in the 1880s, Congress established certain government offices as independent agencies, run generally by multimember commissions whose members serve fixed terms, possess particular expertise and are left free to operate outside direct executive control. But conservatives have long chafed at the agencies’ existence, which they consider an unconstitutional “headless fourth branch of government.” They want the president to have power to fire commissioners for any reason — not only for cause, as is the case under current law — and to review their proposed regulations.

    Trump is on board. “I will bring the independent regulatory agencies, such as the FCC and the FTC, back under presidential authority, as the Constitution demands,” he said in an April 2023 video, referring to the Federal Communications Commission and Federal Trade Commission. “These agencies do not get to become a fourth branch of government, issuing rules and edicts all by themselves.”

    What would this mean for such agencies, which also include the Federal Reserve, Securities and Exchange Commission, Commodity Futures Trading Commission, National Labor Relations Board and Consumer Product Safety Commission?

    “What we’re trying to do is identify the pockets of independence and seize them,” Russell Vought, who headed the Office of Management and Budget during the first Trump administration and has been tapped to lead it again in the second, toldthe New York Times last year. Specifically, Vought said, “It’s very hard to square the Fed’s independence with the Constitution.”

    Eliminating the independence of these agencies would reflect a dramatic tilt in favor of presidential authority. There are any number of ways Trump could force the issue. He could attempt to fire Federal Reserve Chair Jerome H. Powell, who said tersely at a post-election news conference that such a move was “not permitted under the law.” (Powell can only be fired for cause.) The Post reported that Trump is considering taking the extraordinary step of firing Democratic members of the National Labor Relations Board; because of the way the labor agency is set up, Democrats are poised to retain majority control until 2026, if the Senate reconfirms the current chair to another term before it leaves town.

    In any event, the issue of the constitutionality of independent agencies appears destined to return to the high court — with or without presidential action.

    In a 1935 case, Humphrey’s Executor v. United States, the court rejected President Franklin D. Roosevelt’s effort to fire William Humphrey, an FTC commissioner, and Roosevelt’s argument that being limited to firing commissioners only “for cause” was an unconstitutional infringement on executive power.

    But Humphrey’s Executor has long been in conservatives’ crosshairs. More than 20 cases raising constitutional challenges to the independent structure of agencies are making their way through the lower federal courts. The justices just declined to hear one such case, but that reticence might not last.

    Bottom line: Don’t bet on independent agencies’ continued insulation from presidential interference.

    Politicizing the civil service. A second term will give Trump the chance for a do-over in his bid to gain authority to remove tens of thousands of “rogue bureaucrats” who currently enjoy protections against being fired for political reasons. He has declared a “Day One” plan to reissue his October 2020 executive order to create a new Schedule F under which the president would have full power to remove any employee “whose position has been determined to be of confidential, policy-determining, policy-making, or policy-advocating character.”

    This change would upend the civil service system, put in place in 1883 to end the spoils system. Currently, there are about 4,000 political appointees atop a federal workforce of 2.2 million. Trump, in his zeal to root out what he calls the “deep state,” would expand presidential power to fire at will an estimated 50,000 or more federal employees, depending on how broadly the exemption is interpreted.

    “I will immediately re-issue my 2020 Executive Order restoring the President’s authority to remove rogue bureaucrats,” Trump announced in a March 2023 video. “And I will wield that power very aggressively.”

    One sign of how sweeping the change could be: After Trump left office, the National Treasury Employees Union unearthed documents that it said showed how the Office of Management and Budget “stretched the definition of policy work to cover the vast majority of the OMB workforce, from attorneys to GS-09 assistants and specialists who have nothing to do with setting government policy.”

    Trump might find it difficult to institute these changes right away. President Joe Biden not only revoked Trump’s Schedule F order but also adopted a new rule to shield federal workers against having their civil service protections removed. Undoing that and issuing new regulations is a cumbersome, time-consuming process.

    The incoming administration might be tempted to act without going through these procedural hoops. Elon Musk and Vivek Ramaswamy suggested as much in a recent Wall Street Journal op-ed, writing that the civil service law leaves Trump room to quickly “implement any number of ‘rules governing the competitive service’ that would curtail administrative overgrowth, from large-scale firings to relocation of federal agencies out of the Washington area.”

    But moving so fast would be risky, as shown by the Trump administration’s loss at the Supreme Court when it did a sloppy legal job of trying to revoke protections, from the Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals program, for immigrant “dreamers.”

    It’s harder to predict how the court would deal with a revived Schedule F on the merits. The Treasury employees union, in a lawsuitchallenging the original Trump order, called it “a textbook example of the President acting contrary to Congress’s express and limited delegation of authority to the President.” Still, a court inclined to a broad reading of executive powers might give the president more authority over firing federal workers.

    In 1952, Supreme Court Justice Robert H. Jackson, previously FDR’s attorney general, warned of the consequences of untrammeled presidential power in concluding that President Harry S. Truman lacked constitutional authority to seize control of steel plants during the Korean War. “The tendency is strong to emphasize transient results upon policies … and lose sight of enduring consequences upon the balanced power structure of our Republic,” Jackson wrote.

    In Jackson’s formulation, a president’s power is “at its lowest ebb” when he “takes measures incompatible with the expressed or implied will of Congress” — the same sort of measures discussed here. “Presidential claim to a power at once so conclusive and preclusive must be scrutinized with caution,” Jackson admonished, “for what is at stake is the equilibrium established by our constitutional system.”

    The examples outlined above aren’t the worst of what Trump could do — or the cruelest or the most extreme. Actions such as separating families, deporting dreamers and using the Justice Department to punish political enemies fall into those two categories. Yet these threatened moves represent assaults on the very architecture of democracy — assaults that must be repelled, as Jackson instructed us, lest they permanently warp the constitutional structure.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2024/11/22/trump-congress-takeover-power/


    continued from previous novel-

    Yo Max, wake up!  Are we going to brunch or what? 
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