End of the American Republic?

HughFreakingDillon

seanwon said:

mookieblalock said:

MAGA playbook

1. Use the words radical and regime whenever someone disagrees with the supreme leader

2. Refuse to denounce Sandy Hook deniers

1. I voted for Kamala, and the Libs here are radical far left, and their ilk cost us the election.

2. I denounce Sandy Hook deniers.

Now, what is the next play? 

1. HAHAHA

brianlux

seanwon said:

mookieblalock said:

MAGA playbook

1. Use the words radical and regime whenever someone disagrees with the supreme leader

2. Refuse to denounce Sandy Hook deniers

1. I voted for Kamala, and the Libs here are radical far left, and their ilk cost us the election.

2. I denounce Sandy Hook deniers.

Now, what is the next play? 

I'm curious about a couple of things.  First, what are you so angry about?  Every post you make is filled with anger. I don't mean to get personal here, I'm just curious as to what it is about the election or other current events discussed here warrants so much anger.

The other question is, what you mean by "radical left"?  I lived through the Vietnam war era and witnessed radical left actions. There was some really heavy shit going down in those days.   I think I have a fairly clear idea of what has previously been referred to as the radical left.  But your insistence that many people who post here fit that label makes no sense to me.  What is so radical about the left leaning people here?  And I don't mean just one or two, there are several left leaning people on this forum.  The band that hosts this forum itself is left leaning and I don't see anyone referring to them as "radical left".

mickeyrat

brianlux said:

seanwon said:

mookieblalock said:

MAGA playbook

1. Use the words radical and regime whenever someone disagrees with the supreme leader

2. Refuse to denounce Sandy Hook deniers

1. I voted for Kamala, and the Libs here are radical far left, and their ilk cost us the election.

2. I denounce Sandy Hook deniers.

Now, what is the next play? 

I'm curious about a couple of things.  First, what are you so angry about?  Every post you make is filled with anger. I don't mean to get personal here, I'm just curious as to what it is about the election or other current events discussed here warrants so much anger.

The other question is, what you mean by "radical left"?  I lived through the Vietnam war era and witnessed radical left actions. There was some really heavy shit going down in those days.   I think I have a fairly clear idea of what has previously been referred to as the radical left.  But your insistence that many people who post here fit that label makes no sense to me.  What is so radical about the left leaning people here?  And I don't mean just one or two, there are several left leaning people on this forum.  The band that hosts this forum itself is left leaning and I don't see anyone referring to them as "radical left".

my take is the indoctrination campaign Newt put in place for the party that then bled into the likes of Rush Limbaugh and that ilk and subsequently on to fox "fair and balanced" news into newsmaxx and oann...

brianlux

mickeyrat said:

brianlux said:

seanwon said:

mookieblalock said:

MAGA playbook

1. Use the words radical and regime whenever someone disagrees with the supreme leader

2. Refuse to denounce Sandy Hook deniers

1. I voted for Kamala, and the Libs here are radical far left, and their ilk cost us the election.

2. I denounce Sandy Hook deniers.

Now, what is the next play? 

I'm curious about a couple of things.  First, what are you so angry about?  Every post you make is filled with anger. I don't mean to get personal here, I'm just curious as to what it is about the election or other current events discussed here warrants so much anger.

The other question is, what you mean by "radical left"?  I lived through the Vietnam war era and witnessed radical left actions. There was some really heavy shit going down in those days.   I think I have a fairly clear idea of what has previously been referred to as the radical left.  But your insistence that many people who post here fit that label makes no sense to me.  What is so radical about the left leaning people here?  And I don't mean just one or two, there are several left leaning people on this forum.  The band that hosts this forum itself is left leaning and I don't see anyone referring to them as "radical left".

my take is the indoctrination campaign Newt put in place for the party that then bled into the likes of Rush Limbaugh and that ilk and subsequently on to fox "fair and balanced" news into newsmaxx and oann...

Hoping to hear what seanwon thinks.  I'm honestly curious.

Lerxst1992

brianlux said:

mickeyrat said:

brianlux said:

seanwon said:

mookieblalock said:

MAGA playbook

1. Use the words radical and regime whenever someone disagrees with the supreme leader

2. Refuse to denounce Sandy Hook deniers

1. I voted for Kamala, and the Libs here are radical far left, and their ilk cost us the election.

2. I denounce Sandy Hook deniers.

Now, what is the next play? 

I'm curious about a couple of things.  First, what are you so angry about?  Every post you make is filled with anger. I don't mean to get personal here, I'm just curious as to what it is about the election or other current events discussed here warrants so much anger.

The other question is, what you mean by "radical left"?  I lived through the Vietnam war era and witnessed radical left actions. There was some really heavy shit going down in those days.   I think I have a fairly clear idea of what has previously been referred to as the radical left.  But your insistence that many people who post here fit that label makes no sense to me.  What is so radical about the left leaning people here?  And I don't mean just one or two, there are several left leaning people on this forum.  The band that hosts this forum itself is left leaning and I don't see anyone referring to them as "radical left".

my take is the indoctrination campaign Newt put in place for the party that then bled into the likes of Rush Limbaugh and that ilk and subsequently on to fox "fair and balanced" news into newsmaxx and oann...

Hoping to hear what seanwon thinks.  I'm honestly curious.

Setting yourself up for frustration Bri. They know maga won't do a damn thing for them, yet they support it anyway.

brianlux

Lerxst1992 said:

brianlux said:

mickeyrat said:

brianlux said:

seanwon said:

mookieblalock said:

MAGA playbook

1. Use the words radical and regime whenever someone disagrees with the supreme leader

2. Refuse to denounce Sandy Hook deniers

1. I voted for Kamala, and the Libs here are radical far left, and their ilk cost us the election.

2. I denounce Sandy Hook deniers.

Now, what is the next play? 

I'm curious about a couple of things.  First, what are you so angry about?  Every post you make is filled with anger. I don't mean to get personal here, I'm just curious as to what it is about the election or other current events discussed here warrants so much anger.

The other question is, what you mean by "radical left"?  I lived through the Vietnam war era and witnessed radical left actions. There was some really heavy shit going down in those days.   I think I have a fairly clear idea of what has previously been referred to as the radical left.  But your insistence that many people who post here fit that label makes no sense to me.  What is so radical about the left leaning people here?  And I don't mean just one or two, there are several left leaning people on this forum.  The band that hosts this forum itself is left leaning and I don't see anyone referring to them as "radical left".

my take is the indoctrination campaign Newt put in place for the party that then bled into the likes of Rush Limbaugh and that ilk and subsequently on to fox "fair and balanced" news into newsmaxx and oann...

Hoping to hear what seanwon thinks.  I'm honestly curious.

Setting yourself up for frustration Bri. They know maga won't do a damn thing for them, yet they support it anyway.

No frustration here, L.  I'm over, under, sideways, down, and beyond frustration.  All the angst has settled into a grey goo and I just glide.

(but I still curious, Mr. Seanwon!)

Frustration?  Naw... I just glide.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i0QYVOaLtcE

Halifax2TheMax

Your being warned. But don't take it from me, take it from the Chinese. They know a thing or two. Oh, and those pesky billionaires.

When Russian and Chinese élites talk about history, they often mean “History”—the grand Hegelian march toward progress. Since the end of the Cold War, the East has lived with the undignified thesis, popularized by Francis Fukuyama’s 1989 essay “The End of History?,” that democracy had defeated the authoritarian alternatives of the twentieth century. That idea has not aged well. According to a European survey of more than two hundred countries, 2022 was the first time in two decades that closed autocracies outnumbered liberal democracies in the world. Americans have become unreliable underwriters of the international order. Russia’s Vladimir Putin has incited Europe’s largest conflict since the Second World War and China’s Xi Jinping is remaking global institutions in his own image, bereft of democratic values. When Xi visited the Kremlin in March, 2023, a little over a year after Russia invaded Ukraine, he told Putin that the world was changing in ways “we haven’t seen in a hundred years.” “Let’s drive those changes together,” he said. Putin, hands outstretched, nodded. “I agree.”

Donald Trump’s victory this November turned what some dismissed as an electoral fluke, in 2016, into an enduring political reality. “We have won,” Aleksandr Dugin, the Russian ideologue known to some as “Putin’s philosopher,” proclaimed on X. “Globalists have lost their final combat. The future is finally open. I am really happy.” Ren Yi, a blogger and grandson of a former Chinese Communist leader, wrote that Trump’s win, along with his chumminess with Elon Musk, has created something of a “techno-authoritarian-conservative” alliance that resembled the authoritarian cultures of East Asia. “The ‘beacon’ of the free world, the United States, will lead various countries into illiberal democracy,” Ren predicted. “There is no end to history, only the end of the Fukuyama-ists.”

The morning after the U.S. election, I got a message from a seventy-eight-year-old historian in Shanghai named Xiao Gongqin. “I have predicted on several private occasions that Trump would win,” he wrote. Trump, he reasoned, was a necessary corrective against a “woke left” that “had truly gone overboard in recent years.” This level of antipathy toward American progressives is not uncommon among Chinese liberals, who, since 2016, have flocked toward Trump, in part to repudiate a Democratic Party whose emphasis on political correctness—real or imagined—reminds them of China’s past disasters in socialist governance. But Xiao is not a liberal, and his well-known anti-democratic influence on Chinese politics made him an instructive voice on America’s current predicament.

Xiao is the architect of a theory of strongman politics known as “neo-authoritarianism.” In the nineteen-eighties, reformers with varying predilections for democracy and capitalism consolidated power in Communist states. Mikhail Gorbachev restructured the Soviet Union’s planned economy and loosened censorship. In China, Deng Xiaoping ushered in an era known as “reform and opening up,” though the reforms went only so far; he also evinced a limited tolerance for dissent, believing full democracy untenable. In this, he was supported by a group of Chinese thinkers led by Xiao and a prodigious Shanghai academic named Wang Huning. The word “authoritarian” is a rote pejorative in the West, synonymous with tyranny, but in the China of the late twentieth century Xiao and his allies managed to reframe it as a rational, pragmatic, East Asian-specific strategy for modernization. Drawing on a range of sources—Chinese history; Samuel Huntington’s theory of “modernizing authoritarianism”; the Asian “dragons” of Singapore and South Korea, which had grown rapidly under authoritarian rulers—these intellectuals pushed, and supplied the moral ballast, for China to postpone the end of history.

Wang entered government in 1995 and shot through its ranks. He is now one of Xi Jinping’s closest advisers, the preëminent craftsman of Xi’s authoritarian ideology. Xiao, who coined the term “neo-authoritarianism” at a symposium in 1988, continued his advocacy as a professor in Shanghai, until he retired a decade ago. His argument that democracy was a “rootless politics,” alien to Chinese culture, remains part of a dominant strain of the country’s thought. Whether Xiao had influenced the Party’s direction or merely justified it is hard to say. But, in 1988, Deng was briefed on “neo-authoritarianism” by another Chinese leader, who described it as a system where a “political strongman stabilizes the situation and develops the economy.” Deng reportedly responded, “That is exactly what I stand for”; his only qualm was that it could use a rebrand. Later, as China’s economy took off, the world would accept more diplomatic names—“state capitalism” or, more vaguely, “the China model.”

As a writer covering Chinese culture and politics, I’ve watched with a sense of foreboding as America has begun to manifest the same authoritarian compulsions that have long dominated Chinese life. There is a cosmic irony in the way that the twenty-first century has played out: the West, hoping its adversaries would become more like it, has inextricably become more like them. Slowly, ideas that Xiao and his allies had propagated decades ago—the stabilizing force of the strongman and a reverence for cultural traditions—seem to have arrived in the control center of the world’s most powerful liberal democracy.

After Trump’s recent victory, I decided to pay Xiao a visit. I wanted to understand the scholar who had helped salvage the strongman from the dustbin of history, and to know what he made of the figure’s present, and likely future, proliferation. What I found, to my surprise, was a man quietly wrestling with the consequences of his ideas. Xiao has deeply conservative instincts—he counts Edmund Burke and Michael Oakeshott among his influences—but he was, and is, an incrementalist who dreams of China becoming a “constitutional democracy.” His was a theory of enlightened rule, wherein a dictatorship would vanquish the “radicals,” steward an economic miracle, and then, ideally, relinquish power to the people. He had ready-made examples in places such as Taiwan, whose leader Chiang Ching-Kuo dismantled his own autocracy before his death, in 1988. Xiao has not disavowed authoritarianism, and he even seemed to support America’s New Right. But as the immediate prospects for democracy have all but vanished from China, his politics have shifted from reaction to reflection. Authoritarianism, Xiao told me, “has its own problems.”

When Xi Jinping came to power, in 2012, he used his newfound authority to launch an anti-corruption drive, which Xiao endorsed. Since then, though, Xi has abolished Presidential term limits, decimated civil society, and intensified clampdowns on free expression. As a mainland Chinese scholar, Xiao was careful not to betray his views about the regime. He instead spoke to what he now sees as an unsolvable “dilemma” in his theory. A democrat risks welcoming dangerous ideas into a culture—ideas that, legitimate or not, could hasten a nation’s demise. Xiao turned to authoritarianism partly because he believed that China was careening in that direction. And yet “a neo-authoritarian leader must be wise,” Xiao told me, with a hint of exasperation. “And he may not be.” Once you pin your hopes on a justice-delivering strongman, in other words, he may take the righteous path, or he may not. The only certainty is that he has control.

On an overcast Monday evening, I arrived at a low-rise apartment tower in Shanghai, where Xiao lives with his wife. He is a sprightly man, with salt-and-pepper hair and wispy bangs that he brushes to one side. Every day, for twenty years, he has kept to an intense exercise routine—a hundred and fifty squats and more than three hundred volleys of a squash or tennis ball outside. During that time, he has been hard at work on a hefty three-volume history of China from antiquity to Deng’s “reform and opening up.” (He hopes to complete it by 2030.) Xiao has an obsession with classical music. He often leads guests into a spartan living room, where he shows off an oversized speaker system on which he spent tens of thousands of dollars. (“My entire life savings,” he told me.) On my visit, we listened to the German violinist Anne-Sophie Mutter’s rendition of the “Carmen Fantasy,” at a volume suited to the hard of hearing.

In the days after the U.S. election, Xiao wrote an essay on his blog in which he opined about the result’s geopolitical ramifications. He feared that Trump’s isolationist bluster would lead some Chinese to underestimate U.S. commitments to Taiwan, raising the “probability of direct conflict between the U.S. and China.” During our meeting, however, he also expounded on how the countries were similar. China’s neo-authoritarianism in the eighties, he told me, shared a common enemy with today’s Republican Party: the “romanticism” espoused by the “radical liberals.”

Xiao used the term romanticism to describe the belief, inspired by the Enlightenment, that humanity can design ideal societies through reason. He criticized this view for disregarding history and experience—or, to riff on an old adage, for “making the perfect the enemy of the feasible.” Xiao, who was born in 1946 and grew up under Maoism, witnessed the worst excesses of this kind of armchair statecraft. When Mao launched the Cultural Revolution, in 1966, Xiao had recently graduated high school and was working in a factory. He hadn’t been able to enter university, likely for harboring “bourgeois” sympathies—including his passion for Western philosophy—and he allied himself with the Red Guards as a leader of a “rebel worker faction” at his machinery plant. But, as the revolution wore on, he himself was denounced as a “revisionist,” and he spent the next several years consigned to gruelling work at the factory.

Shortly after Mao died, in 1976, the reckoning began. Crowds gathered around a Democracy Wall near Beijing’s Tiananmen Square to post demands for freedom and accountability. Intellectuals called for a “New Enlightenment,” and an iconoclastic 1988 documentary, “River Elegy,” compared Chinese civilization to a muddied Yellow River that was in need of a “good scrubbing.” In the frenzy to repudiate the past, Xiao saw history repeating itself. The Cultural Revolution had cemented his faith in a liberal modernity, but it also, paradoxically, instilled a visceral fear of that modernity’s real-life accelerants. In the spirit of William F. Buckley, Jr., the architect of modern American conservatism, Xiao stood “athwart history yelling Stop.”

Continued next post

Halifax2TheMax

Continued from previous post:

The seeds of “neo-authoritarianism” came to Xiao around 1983, when he was researching republican China, the country’s first major attempt at democracy. The experiment followed the overthrow of China’s last imperial dynasty, in 1911, and was seen by many of Xiao’s coevals as a fount of inspiration. But what Xiao found was complete and utter chaos. “The National Assembly couldn’t do anything except mess things up,” Xiao told me. “The parties would just go at each other with total disregard for the nation’s interests.” China, Xiao concluded, lacked the “software system” for democracy: a civil society, a rule of law, a culture of political bargaining and compromise. “I do not mean to say that I am fundamentally opposed to Western democracy,” Xiao told me. “I personally feel very envious of the United States and the West.” But, he went on, moving the system over is implausible because China “lacks so many of the conditions.” What China needed was something like a final emperor, the breaker of the despotic chain who would summon modernity by fiat. Xiao reverse-engineered democracy back to the strongman: “In order to have democracy, there must be civil society,” he told me. A civil society requires economic prosperity; economic prosperity requires political stability; and political stability “requires a strongman.”

In 1988, Xiao introduced his theory at an academic symposium, and “neo-authoritarianism” officially entered the public discourse. The idea was reviled by liberal intellectuals, who accused Xiao of rationalizing the status quo—or, worse, tilting China back toward the system that it had just escaped. But his theory seemed to mirror the temperament of Deng, who, for all his reformist tendencies, was a ruthless apparatchik. Throughout his reign, the man hailed as a pragmatic liberalizer jailed Democracy Wall activists and denounced unwelcome foreign ideas as “spiritual pollution.” In the spring of 1989, students gathered in Tiananmen Square to protest for greater political freedoms. Intellectuals led by the literary critic Liu Xiaobo joined a hunger strike in solidarity. Deng imposed martial law and approved the final order to clear the square.

Xiao told me that Liu and the demonstrators held “considerable responsibility” for the carnage on June 4th that year. The hunger strikers, it seemed, had contracted the same romantic virus that plagued the turn-of-century reformers, the Red Guards, and Gorbachev. “Neo-authoritarianism’s No. 1 enemy,” Xiao told me, “is the radical liberals.” Only once they were “marginalized,” he continued, could Chinese society stabilize and experiment with political freedoms. (Liu Xiaobo died of untreated liver cancer in 2017, after spending nearly a decade in prison.)

If reformers like Liu had, in Xiao’s view, pushed China beyond its immediate capacities, American progressives were now doing the same to the United States. For Xiao, the Democratic Party, élite universities, and Western corporate boards were the new epicenters of romanticism. Open borders ignored the real difficulties of cultural assimilation—it was, as he put it, like “mixing Type B blood with a Type A body.” Transgender identity was just pseudoscience: “The belief that everyone can decide their gender—it disregards human experience,” Xiao told me. (Xiao did not seem to be familiar with “radicalism” on the American right, from white nationalism to QAnon.) The implication was clear: in 1989, the man who repelled the radicals was Deng Xiaoping. In 2024, it was Donald Trump.

Perhaps one reason why authoritarianism has returned to America is that the country’s fundamental political questions are beginning to resemble those of the East. For most of American history, politics revolved around how to limit government. But, in the Communist world, the question was often about how to rebuild it—and save it from bad actors. The stakes felt higher. There are many probable causes of our eastward drift: the failures of globalization, the betrayals of technological progress, cultural anomie, the provocateurs who profit from the sense that the world is about to burn. Whatever the origin, America’s inner conflict now feels comparable to the pivotal decade when Xiao and his liberal adversaries fought over China’s future.

Following what many Americans considered the most consequential election of a lifetime, Elon Musk has vowed to “delete” a bloated government. Trump promises to eradicate an army of deep-state conspirators, whom he calls “the enemy within.” Democratic norms and the rule of law are mere windshield ornaments on the road to American redemption. In its emphasis on results, this approach is familiar to Chinese authoritarians. “The people didn’t want romanticism, they wanted performance,” Xiao told me when I asked him why he thought Trump had won. The Democrats didn’t perform, he added: they didn’t secure the border, and they didn’t improve the economy.

For all of Xiao’s attention to the psyche of “radical liberals,” I was most struck by his own. In the Liu Xiaobos of the eighties, Xiao had glimpsed a romanticism redolent of the Red Guards. In this light, an advocate for peaceful democratic change, who kept vigil in Tiananmen Square to protect students from oncoming tanks, had been similar to violent revolutionaries. Xiao, of course, had been a revolutionary himself—and who better to recognize a radical than a recovering radical? The current generation of Communist Party leaders is not so different in their perspective. “The Politburo is a Red Guard Politburo,” Geremie Barmé, a prominent Australian sinologist, told me. China, he continued, “lives with a completely unresolved, profound historical trauma . . . and is now led by people who are all the product of trauma. All of this is why it is so repressive.”

One is not born but becomes an authoritarian. Carl Schmitt, the twentieth century’s giant of illiberal thought, drew his theories from his personal experience living in the Weimar Republic. Xiao was inspired by Yan Fu, the reformist intellectual and translator of Adam Smith who, after living through China’s own republican experiment, decided that his people were “not capable of self-government.” And, in the U.S., one finds examples like Peter Thiel, the billionaire venture capitalist who declared, in a 2009 essay, that “I no longer believe that freedom and democracy are compatible.” Thiel traced his anti-democratic conversion to earlier defeats: his “trench warfare” against progressive students in college; the post-financial-crisis marginalization of libertarian dogma. Over the years, Thiel’s shift toward the authoritarian right has coincided with the growing acceptance of his ideas in the mainstream. He is now one of the biggest funders of the conservative nationalist movement, a mentor to Vice-President-elect J. D. Vance, and a supporter of “neo-reactionary” figures like Curtis Yarvin, who admires the state-capitalist societies of Singapore and Deng Xiaoping’s China.

Thiel and Xiao are vastly different thinkers, but this only makes their commonalities more striking. In believing that democracy was either premature or past its prime, they turned to the strongman as an antidote. “The problem with Xiao,” Joseph Fewsmith, a professor of Chinese politics at Boston University, told me, “is that he tackles the question of how countries get from autocracy to democracy, but he never explored how not to get stuck. Which is what happened.” When I asked Xiao what a democracy in China might look like, he said that he hadn’t really thought about it. The proponent of a so-called “soft landing” for democracy did not, ultimately, spend much time designing a parachute.

For most of his life, Xiao has claimed that the central danger to Chinese society was not the dictator but his liberal opponents. Whether Xiao was right we will never know. We cannot peer into the universe where Liu and his reformers won, where they are alive and well, rather than silenced or dead. Ours is the world of strongmen, where decisions increasingly turn on the whims of a vanishing few. In China, the risk of Xiao’s theory has come to pass—the strongman changed tack. At his trial for “subversion of state power,” in 2009, Liu Xiaobo prepared a statement of warning to his political opponents. It remains just as relevant today as it was then. “An enemy mentality will poison the spirit of a nation,” Liu wrote. It will “destroy a society’s tolerance and humanity, and hinder a country’s advance toward freedom and democracy.” ♦

The Father of Chinese Authoritarianism Has a Message for America | The New Yorker

brianlux

End of empire seems very real to me.  

But words like "dystopia", "doom", "apocalypse", and "drama" don't apply here.  Watching a car crash is not the same as being a car that is crashing.  Each of us is simply just too insignificant to claim ownership of something so big.  We're a part of it, but we're mostly just spectators, and sometimes reporters... 

...like Charles Bowden, latter day desert sage, who wrote these "memories of the future" in his book, Desierto, from 1991":

"Human beings who come after us will be amazed at our actions and will write long dull essays about what they imagine to be our self-hatred or failure of will or decadence."

"We want our God to love us so that we can stop this fear that lies on our tongue like bile every morning in that bad, lonely moment when we awaken just before the sun roars over the mountain and makes the emptiness real estate again."

As time passes, Bowden's stark expressions grow closer and closer to the here and now.

shecky

January 20 can't get here soon enough.

Halifax2TheMax

shecky said:

January 20 can't get here soon enough.

Why Sheck? Will the price of milk, bread and eggs drop on 01/21? Unemployment be below 2%? Interest rates going to go down to below 1%? All our overseas military bases closed and the troops brought home? The Panama Canal and Greenland will be ‘Murican again? What is it that makes you believe January 20 can’t get here soon enough? You retiring? Getting married? Buying a new car? Going to Hawaii? Mahalo!

Gern Blansten

shecky said:

January 20 can't get here soon enough.

is that when we all go to concentration camps?

brianlux

Oh boy!  Higher prices for food and goods.  Billionaires wealthier than ever!  The American dream!  Small price to pay for owning the POS libs!

mickeyrat

shecky said:

January 20 can't get here soon enough.

I am interested to know, if you dont mind. Which of the campaign promises, proposed policy initiatives FROM 47 you believe will be implemented in whole or in part? And what say you about the overlap between these policy points and those as laid out in the project 2025 paper.

What is it about a 2nd term that elicits such excitement or passion for you?

genuinely curious.

I will likely have some follow up questions.

if you prefer , we can take this to dm's. 

I will open this to any supporter that is open to honest communication without resorting childish bullshit. lets talk.

brianlux

mickeyrat said:

shecky said:

January 20 can't get here soon enough.

I am interested to know, if you dont mind. Which of the campaign promises, proposed policy initiatives FROM 47 you believe will be implemented in whole or in part? And what say you about the overlap between these policy points and those as laid out in the project 2025 paper.

What is it about a 2nd term that elicits such excitement or passion for you?

genuinely curious.

I will likely have some follow up questions.

if you prefer , we can take this to dm's. 

I will open this to any supporter that is open to honest communication without resorting childish bullshit. lets talk.

That's illustrates a major problem with this forum.  I'll admit to sometimes being sarcastic, but when Trump supporters come on here time and again with pointless nonsense that has nothing to do with discussing the topic, sarcasm seems like the next best response to ignoring.  But when there is as hugely important a topic as the current political scene, and the threads are constantly being jammed to the hilt with bullshit (an typical M.O. of trolls, by the way), that leaves little room for discussion. 

So I would propose that anyone here who has a sincere interest in discussing politics and current events on this forum were to make an concerted effort to ignore trolling, it would cease to exist, and we could resume legitimate discussion.  You might have noticed that some of the people here who do engage in civil and intelligent discourse have either bailed on this place or at best seldom post here.

It's time to put an end to the bullshit here. 

battle1

brianlux said:

mickeyrat said:

shecky said:

January 20 can't get here soon enough.

I am interested to know, if you dont mind. Which of the campaign promises, proposed policy initiatives FROM 47 you believe will be implemented in whole or in part? And what say you about the overlap between these policy points and those as laid out in the project 2025 paper.

What is it about a 2nd term that elicits such excitement or passion for you?

genuinely curious.

I will likely have some follow up questions.

if you prefer , we can take this to dm's. 

I will open this to any supporter that is open to honest communication without resorting childish bullshit. lets talk.

That's illustrates a major problem with this forum.  I'll admit to sometimes being sarcastic, but when Trump supporters come on here time and again with pointless nonsense that has nothing to do with discussing the topic, sarcasm seems like the next best response to ignoring.  But when there is as hugely important a topic as the current political scene, and the threads are constantly being jammed to the hilt with bullshit (an typical M.O. of trolls, by the way), that leaves little room for discussion. 

So I would propose that anyone here who has a sincere interest in discussing politics and current events on this forum were to make an concerted effort to ignore trolling, it would cease to exist, and we could resume legitimate discussion.  You might have noticed that some of the people here who do engage in civil and intelligent discourse have either bailed on this place or at best seldom post here.

It's time to put an end to the bullshit here. 

I agree with the last sentence.  One place to start would be closing this thread, as it is literally a Fearmongering 101 playbook.  The end of the American Republic...  and 5 people all screaming at a brick wall.  The next thread to close in an effort to end the bullshit would be the other Fearmongering thread called "Letter from an American", or something like that.  Complete nonsense.  Lets be better all around.  Stop pointing fingers.  

Happy New Year my fellow Americans! 

Halifax2TheMax

battle1 said:

brianlux said:

mickeyrat said:

shecky said:

January 20 can't get here soon enough.

I am interested to know, if you dont mind. Which of the campaign promises, proposed policy initiatives FROM 47 you believe will be implemented in whole or in part? And what say you about the overlap between these policy points and those as laid out in the project 2025 paper.

What is it about a 2nd term that elicits such excitement or passion for you?

genuinely curious.

I will likely have some follow up questions.

if you prefer , we can take this to dm's. 

I will open this to any supporter that is open to honest communication without resorting childish bullshit. lets talk.

That's illustrates a major problem with this forum.  I'll admit to sometimes being sarcastic, but when Trump supporters come on here time and again with pointless nonsense that has nothing to do with discussing the topic, sarcasm seems like the next best response to ignoring.  But when there is as hugely important a topic as the current political scene, and the threads are constantly being jammed to the hilt with bullshit (an typical M.O. of trolls, by the way), that leaves little room for discussion. 

So I would propose that anyone here who has a sincere interest in discussing politics and current events on this forum were to make an concerted effort to ignore trolling, it would cease to exist, and we could resume legitimate discussion.  You might have noticed that some of the people here who do engage in civil and intelligent discourse have either bailed on this place or at best seldom post here.

It's time to put an end to the bullshit here. 

I agree with the last sentence.  One place to start would be closing this thread, as it is literally a Fearmongering 101 playbook.  The end of the American Republic...  and 5 people all screaming at a brick wall.  The next thread to close in an effort to end the bullshit would be the other Fearmongering thread called "Letter from an American", or something like that.  Complete nonsense.  Lets be better all around.  Stop pointing fingers.  

Happy New Year my fellow Americans! 

Cancel threads? How authoritarian of you. Why not practice self control and ignore? Or try reading some of the posted articles and explain why you agree/disagree or why you consider it “fearmongering 101.” 

Cancel culture is alive and well folks.

battle1

Halifax2TheMax said:

battle1 said:

brianlux said:

mickeyrat said:

shecky said:

January 20 can't get here soon enough.

I am interested to know, if you dont mind. Which of the campaign promises, proposed policy initiatives FROM 47 you believe will be implemented in whole or in part? And what say you about the overlap between these policy points and those as laid out in the project 2025 paper.

What is it about a 2nd term that elicits such excitement or passion for you?

genuinely curious.

I will likely have some follow up questions.

if you prefer , we can take this to dm's. 

I will open this to any supporter that is open to honest communication without resorting childish bullshit. lets talk.

That's illustrates a major problem with this forum.  I'll admit to sometimes being sarcastic, but when Trump supporters come on here time and again with pointless nonsense that has nothing to do with discussing the topic, sarcasm seems like the next best response to ignoring.  But when there is as hugely important a topic as the current political scene, and the threads are constantly being jammed to the hilt with bullshit (an typical M.O. of trolls, by the way), that leaves little room for discussion. 

So I would propose that anyone here who has a sincere interest in discussing politics and current events on this forum were to make an concerted effort to ignore trolling, it would cease to exist, and we could resume legitimate discussion.  You might have noticed that some of the people here who do engage in civil and intelligent discourse have either bailed on this place or at best seldom post here.

It's time to put an end to the bullshit here. 

I agree with the last sentence.  One place to start would be closing this thread, as it is literally a Fearmongering 101 playbook.  The end of the American Republic...  and 5 people all screaming at a brick wall.  The next thread to close in an effort to end the bullshit would be the other Fearmongering thread called "Letter from an American", or something like that.  Complete nonsense.  Lets be better all around.  Stop pointing fingers.  

Happy New Year my fellow Americans! 

Cancel threads? How authoritarian of you. Why not practice self control and ignore? Or try reading some of the posted articles and explain why you agree/disagree or why you consider it “fearmongering 101.” 

Cancel culture is alive and well folks.

By all means, use whatever fancy buzzword you'd like.  Either way, let's stop posting propaganda around here for starters, eh? 

Indifference

America might not have survived the current route. I’m hopefully for the next four years - for those rooting against it becareful what you wish for….

Halifax2TheMax

But two recent examples of the slide into authoritarianism. You can add Ken Doll Haxton’s charging out of state medical providers of abortion medications with a crime to the list as well. FreeDUMB!

What’s harmful ? I sure as hell don’t know but I’ll know it when I see it!

Judge rules Arkansas law threatening librarians with jail unconstitutional

The law, which threatened imprisonment if librarians or booksellers provided ‘harmful’ content to minors, violates the First Amendment, a federal judge ruled.

A federal judge on Monday struck down key parts of an Arkansas law that threatened librarians and booksellers with imprisonment if they were found to have provided “harmful” content to a minor.

U.S. District Judge Timothy Brooks ruled that two parts of Arkansas Act 372 — which Republican Arkansas Gov. Sarah Huckabee Sanders signed in 2023 — are overly broad and vague, and violated librarians’, booksellers’ and patrons’ First Amendment rights.

The two parts of the law that were struck down would have established a criminal misdemeanor, punishable by up to a year in prison, for librarians and booksellers who distribute “harmful” material to a minor. It also would have required local governments to create oversight boards to review challenged content, which often deal with themes of race and sexuality. The ruling, which will likely be challenged, comes as a growing number of GOP-controlled statehouses have considered similar laws that threaten librarians with prison.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2024/12/26/arkansas-librarian-law-ruled-unconstitutional/

This company rates news sites’ credibility. The right wants it stopped.

NewsGuard, which prizes its nonpartisan criteria, has become a prime target of the GOP’s battle against disinformation watchdogs.

When veteran newsmen L. Gordon Crovitz and Steven Brill started their news site rating company, they were prepared for the inevitable cries of bias from both sides.

What they didn’t anticipate was that NewsGuard, their company of about 50 employees, would become the target of congressional investigations and accusations from federal regulators that it was at the vanguard of a vast conspiracy to censor conservative views.

Since 2018, NewsGuard has built a business offering advertisers nonpartisan assessments of online publishers — backed by a team of journalists who assess which sites are reputable and which can’t be trusted. It uses a slate of nine standard criteria, such as whether a site corrects errors or discloses its ownership and financing, to produce a zero to 100 percent rating.

Crovitz, a former publisher of the Wall Street Journal and a Republican, and Brill, a left-tending independent who founded Court TV and the American Lawyer magazine, engaged with publishers wanting to understand subpar ratings, sometimes wrangling for hours by phone over the details of a site’s correction policy.

But conservatives now question the company’s premise. Brendan Carr, President-elect Donald Trump’s pick to lead the Federal Communications Commission, accused the company of facilitating a “censorship cartel,” in a November letter to leading tech platforms. Noting that key legal protections depend on tech executives operating “in good faith,” Carr continued: “It is in this context that I am writing to obtain information about your work with one specific organization — the Orwellian named NewsGuard.”

NewsGuard, backed by legal experts, argues that Carr’s letter may violate the First Amendment by threatening the speech rights of private companies.

“The only attempt to censor going on here is by Brendan Carr,” Crovitz said in an interview.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2024/12/24/newsguard-disinformation-censorship-free-speech/

The march toward authoritarianism continues.