TicketMaster's Fan2Fan is now Fan2Bot

EH14457 · April 2024

PJNB said:

I refuse to believe 10C would sign off on something that you have a chance on winning every GA you put in for if you are selected close to the first.

JimmyV said:

I have wondered how fully 10c understands or is aware from year to year how TM plans to conduct these draws.

Not sure if the bottom post was meant to be a reply to the top, but yes.

JimmyV · April 2024

EH14457 said:

PJNB said:

I refuse to believe 10C would sign off on something that you have a chance on winning every GA you put in for if you are selected close to the first.

JimmyV said:

I have wondered how fully 10c understands or is aware from year to year how TM plans to conduct these draws.

Not sure if the bottom post was meant to be a reply to the top, but yes.

I didn't see Jeff's post till after mine, but I 100% agree.

PJNB · April 2024

So they only allowed 1 pair to be won for both MSG shows but are ok with you winning everything else and someone else missing everything else.

Does not make any sense to care about one thing and not the others for fairness.

jimjam1982 · April 2024

Long thread to catch up but at the end of the day...there is no way to 100% put a stop to scalpers/bots outside of unified laws and restrictions.

The current system is the best in a long time. yes you have to be fast to get F2F. yes it sucks that bots gobble up non-transferable tickets and put them on resale sites and sell TM login in info. Is it overwhelming and near impossible for 10c to manage - yes, can't hold it against them for not browsing those sites and revoking tickets it would be a never ending battle. it sucks more that no legislation exists to end scalping as its been a problem since the 19th century...

This still beats the crap out of of post cards and camping out overnight.

TM/Seat Geek/Vivid/Stub Hub whatever, they don't care because they charge fees based on % so they will never try to stop it.

The rabbit hole to resolving the scalping/resale issue is deep indeed.

SHZA · April 2024

EH14457 said:

SHZA said:

mpedone said:

SHZA said:

mpedone said:

EH14457 said:

mpedone said:
I do enjoy that some people are hell-bent on this being a conspiracy and refuse to believe the answer that fits the evidence.

Saying that it was poorly done is not the same as calling it a conspiracy. There are perfectly rational explanations for how the lottery results (even accidentally) could have shifted from benefiting a greater number of people to greatly benefiting a smaller number of people. Poor design, poor implementation, miscommunication either internally or across parties... if you go back to my post earlier referencing entry-centric distribution (rather than show-centric), it's definitely at least though-provoking. And it shifts the rationale for ditching show priority from 10c's explanation ("people found it confusing") to something which seems more plausible... changes under the hood (beyond 10's control) made it impossible to honor show priority without considerable additional work.

Sure, and I'm on record as believing it was entry-centric as it fits what we've seen really well. I'm referring to the people who keep saying "Well, it might have been rigged" and the like.

I totally think doing away with priority was because people found it confusing, just that the people being referred to are TM themselves, not the customers. Actually, I think they just found it to be too much work and took the easier/faster route of just picking numbers and fulfilling the entire entry.

I also don't think it was that poorly communicated. I think most of us just interpreted it the way we wanted to.

It may well have been a single tour-level lottery rather than numerous show-level lotteries, but it was not communicated well. If it was, there would have been discussion of that aspect before the draw, in formulating entry strategies. I never heard the tour-level theory floated until the results came out showing what would be exceedingly impropable results of numerous people seemingly having all won multiple show-level draws for east coast shows that had less than 10% odds to win on past tours. Show-level is what people understood from the way it was communicated and past practice

You're not wrong - it was never explicitly stated how the draw would work, but there were numerous references to your request being fulfilled and being charged for every ticket requested. I think most of us (myself included) interpreted that as each show was a different request, but looking back, I think it's clear that it meant that if your number came up, your entire request was fulfilled. This was why you couldn't just add or remove shows from your request, you had to submit an entirely new request (and why they stressed that they'd only look at your most recent request when the draw happened).

What is also notable is a line in the instructions/info that had appeared in previous announcements: "Ticket Requests will be confirmed for each show taking your priority into consideration, but it is not guaranteed you will get your first priority." Granted, there was no priority for this tour, but no version of this sentence appears in the 2024 announcement.

I really think we just assumed the draw would be show-by-show because that's what they used to do.

Of course, I could be entirely wrong. Maybe it was rigged (for some reason), maybe they did something dumber than what I've described, or maybe TM just simply screwed up. If so, gives me/us more reason to hate TM. I just don't think that's the case here.

Maybe it's "clear" in hindsight that's what happened, but it sure wasn't clear from the communications themselves. It could have been communicated clearly in a way that there would be no assumption that the draw would be show by show. Like actually coming out and saying "unlike past years, the lottery will not be done on a show by show basis."

I don't think the fact that you couldn't edit a request and had to redo it entirely is significant. I believe the ticketstoday entries have always worked that way even when show by show priority mattered.

It's at least worth acknowledging, regardless of speculation on the process, that better communication ahead of time likely wouldn't have impacted the results, right? It just would have raised fewer eyebrows when the results were announced? I mean, there could be something I'm not considering, but whether 10c was drawing entire forms or show-by-show... the only appropriate course of action was to submit your one allowable entry with all the shows you wanted. People just would have known to expect feast or famine.

I think I would have submitted a different entry, although I suppose it wouldn't have made me more likely to be among the "winners" who got GA across the board. I limited my entry to what I expected to be the shows with the lowest odds, hoping to get 1-2, and expecting to rely on F2F for lower demand shows for which I didn't want to have to worry about trying to get rid of mediocre 10c seats. If I knew that the entire multi-show entry could be granted--and all GA at that--I would have rolled the dice and put in for GA/P1 for the entire tour probably, because the chance of winning all GAs at the start would have saved me many hours on F2F

P-Town-P-Jam-Fan · April 2024

craigraether said:

Last night at 10pm did two Coordinated drops for both LA shows, both in Sec E row1, asked that the tickets be posted as singles going one by one, Show 2, then Show1, then Show2, etc. All 4 tickets were secured. BOTs not fitting singles. I figured if I lost one ticket of the pair, I would lose to fan which is fine. During that time 2 pairs of floors further back came up and sold. Just an idea for those doing seated drops in desirable locations. Maybe wait 5-10 between tickets. Any one who sees the second one might just think it's the same ticket as they pop up again after they sell before they disappear. Good Luck and Beat the BOTS... Prob not advisable for GA, but might work if you lose it would be to a fan not a BOT...

Fantastic idea and would 100% recommend if you are trying to drop your tickets for someone specific.

Zod · April 2024

PJNB said:

I refuse to believe 10C would sign off on something that you have a chance on winning every GA you put in for if you are selected close to the first.

I feel the same way. The farmed out the lottery, and I'm thinking they just assumed it would be well run.

I sort of feel like the way we want 10c lotteries to be run, an the way 10c ran them in the past is more complicated than most other fan clubs. Ticketstoday/TM tries to simplify, and what not (I bet the seniority thing drives them crazy).

On the flip side, I don't think that many people were vocal that doing it by show and preference was that complicated. At least most of us on here appreciated the preference system? Found it odd when they put the info on the ticketing they said they stopped it to due people complaining... how loud do we complain to get it back?

mpedone · April 2024

SHZA said:

EH14457 said:

SHZA said:

mpedone said:

SHZA said:

mpedone said:

EH14457 said:

mpedone said:
I do enjoy that some people are hell-bent on this being a conspiracy and refuse to believe the answer that fits the evidence.

Saying that it was poorly done is not the same as calling it a conspiracy. There are perfectly rational explanations for how the lottery results (even accidentally) could have shifted from benefiting a greater number of people to greatly benefiting a smaller number of people. Poor design, poor implementation, miscommunication either internally or across parties... if you go back to my post earlier referencing entry-centric distribution (rather than show-centric), it's definitely at least though-provoking. And it shifts the rationale for ditching show priority from 10c's explanation ("people found it confusing") to something which seems more plausible... changes under the hood (beyond 10's control) made it impossible to honor show priority without considerable additional work.

Sure, and I'm on record as believing it was entry-centric as it fits what we've seen really well. I'm referring to the people who keep saying "Well, it might have been rigged" and the like.

I totally think doing away with priority was because people found it confusing, just that the people being referred to are TM themselves, not the customers. Actually, I think they just found it to be too much work and took the easier/faster route of just picking numbers and fulfilling the entire entry.

I also don't think it was that poorly communicated. I think most of us just interpreted it the way we wanted to.

It may well have been a single tour-level lottery rather than numerous show-level lotteries, but it was not communicated well. If it was, there would have been discussion of that aspect before the draw, in formulating entry strategies. I never heard the tour-level theory floated until the results came out showing what would be exceedingly impropable results of numerous people seemingly having all won multiple show-level draws for east coast shows that had less than 10% odds to win on past tours. Show-level is what people understood from the way it was communicated and past practice

You're not wrong - it was never explicitly stated how the draw would work, but there were numerous references to your request being fulfilled and being charged for every ticket requested. I think most of us (myself included) interpreted that as each show was a different request, but looking back, I think it's clear that it meant that if your number came up, your entire request was fulfilled. This was why you couldn't just add or remove shows from your request, you had to submit an entirely new request (and why they stressed that they'd only look at your most recent request when the draw happened).

What is also notable is a line in the instructions/info that had appeared in previous announcements: "Ticket Requests will be confirmed for each show taking your priority into consideration, but it is not guaranteed you will get your first priority." Granted, there was no priority for this tour, but no version of this sentence appears in the 2024 announcement.

I really think we just assumed the draw would be show-by-show because that's what they used to do.

Of course, I could be entirely wrong. Maybe it was rigged (for some reason), maybe they did something dumber than what I've described, or maybe TM just simply screwed up. If so, gives me/us more reason to hate TM. I just don't think that's the case here.

Maybe it's "clear" in hindsight that's what happened, but it sure wasn't clear from the communications themselves. It could have been communicated clearly in a way that there would be no assumption that the draw would be show by show. Like actually coming out and saying "unlike past years, the lottery will not be done on a show by show basis."

I don't think the fact that you couldn't edit a request and had to redo it entirely is significant. I believe the ticketstoday entries have always worked that way even when show by show priority mattered.

It's at least worth acknowledging, regardless of speculation on the process, that better communication ahead of time likely wouldn't have impacted the results, right? It just would have raised fewer eyebrows when the results were announced? I mean, there could be something I'm not considering, but whether 10c was drawing entire forms or show-by-show... the only appropriate course of action was to submit your one allowable entry with all the shows you wanted. People just would have known to expect feast or famine.

I think I would have submitted a different entry, although I suppose it wouldn't have made me more likely to be among the "winners" who got GA across the board. I limited my entry to what I expected to be the shows with the lowest odds, hoping to get 1-2, and expecting to rely on F2F for lower demand shows for which I didn't want to have to worry about trying to get rid of mediocre 10c seats. If I knew that the entire multi-show entry could be granted--and all GA at that--I would have rolled the dice and put in for GA/P1 for the entire tour probably, because the chance of winning all GAs at the start would have saved me many hours on F2F

Ah, that is a nuance I have missed (ignored?) - if you put in for GA and got picked early, you'd likely get all GA, whereas had the draws been by show, you might still get a bunch of shows, but some you might get picked after GA is gone. Sorry that it took me so long to see that issue. It is a big problem with this method!

PJNB · April 2024

Zod said:

PJNB said:

I refuse to believe 10C would sign off on something that you have a chance on winning every GA you put in for if you are selected close to the first.

I feel the same way. The farmed out the lottery, and I'm thinking they just assumed it would be well run.

I sort of feel like the way we want 10c lotteries to be run, an the way 10c ran them in the past is more complicated than most other fan clubs. Ticketstoday/TM tries to simplify, and what not (I bet the seniority thing drives them crazy).

On the flip side, I don't think that many people were vocal that doing it by show and preference was that complicated. At least most of us on here appreciated the preference system? Found it odd when they put the info on the ticketing they said they stopped it to due people complaining... how loud do we complain to get it back?

It has been mentioned before but removing priority, aside from making to easier for them to draw, also makes it harder for us to see flaws and mistakes made in the lotto.

In the past when 10C ran the lotto there were little to no errors reported when keeping priority in mind from 2013 to 2018 shows that I followed.

In 2020 there were a few and in 2022/2023 we all know how they went.

Taking priority out we do not have that as a measure now to see if it was done fairly. All we have is a list of shows won and lost for each account.

Even that is not passing the fairness sniff test but what do you have to prove it and is anyone even listening or care?

JimmyV · April 2024

2023. TM trying to assign seats by seniority AS WINNERS WERE DRAWN will always blow my mind. It can't be done and there is no way 10c agreed to it. Debacle.

schaefferlax · April 2024

jimjam1982 said:

Long thread to catch up but at the end of the day...there is no way to 100% put a stop to scalpers/bots outside of unified laws and restrictions.

The current system is the best in a long time. yes you have to be fast to get F2F. yes it sucks that bots gobble up non-transferable tickets and put them on resale sites and sell TM login in info. Is it overwhelming and near impossible for 10c to manage - yes, can't hold it against them for not browsing those sites and revoking tickets it would be a never ending battle. it sucks more that no legislation exists to end scalping as its been a problem since the 19th century...

This still beats the crap out of of post cards and camping out overnight.

TM/Seat Geek/Vivid/Stub Hub whatever, they don't care because they charge fees based on % so they will never try to stop it.

The rabbit hole to resolving the scalping/resale issue is deep indeed.

10C could just tell TM that F2F buyers need to have a 10C membership. Literally could be 2 boxes to verify member number and last name to prevent a bot just putting in a random number until it works. Some other kind of verification could be used if it needed to extend to non-10C members. F2F is POINTLESS if it is possible for the tickets to end up on stubhub for 3x...

At this point, with the technology we have, the only reason fans are getting boxed out is due to the greed of 1) TM and 2) the band. As much as it pains me to say that.

OfThePearl · April 2024

It seems to me that the old 10c system that took all the things into account that we hold dear, became too big for 10c to handle. When they passed this process on to TM, of course TM could care less about what we deem to be fair/important/are accustommed to. They botched it up royally on the first go around, and refused to even attempt a reasonable facimile, this time. 10c cared about fan perceptions, TM does not, so they have no incentive to put in the time/money to create the outcome 10c used to produce (or at least attempt).
We just have to figure out how to best achieve our goals, with the hand TM now deals- which keeps changing. Ugh!

RatherStarved · April 2024

Not the greatest pull in the world but just got Floor 4 Row C Sacramento.

mcgruff10 · April 2024

Kids wanted Red baron pizza. Ate one pie in seconds. I Tried a slice, nasty 🤮

craigraether · April 2024

RatherStarved said:

Not the greatest pull in the world but just got Floor 4 Row C Sacramento.

Saw those, ive been looking to see if they ended up on Tick Pick.. Awesome you landed those..

RatherStarved · April 2024

craigraether said:

RatherStarved said:

Not the greatest pull in the world but just got Floor 4 Row C Sacramento.

Saw those, ive been looking to see if they ended up on Tick Pick.. Awesome you landed those..

Thanks. They’re good not great. I probably refreshed that show at least 200 times today. And for once I didn’t get asked for a security code. BTW one ticket may be surplus if anyone has a Philly or LA trade.

nicknyr15 · April 2024

mcgruff10 said:

Kids wanted Red baron pizza. Ate one pie in seconds. I Tried a slice, nasty 🤮

That’s a great story for fan2bot thread. Maybe you should also post in the pizza thread 😂😂😂😂😂

RatherStarved · April 2024

nicknyr15 said:

mcgruff10 said:

Kids wanted Red baron pizza. Ate one pie in seconds. I Tried a slice, nasty 🤮

That’s a great story for fan2bot thread. Maybe you should also post in the pizza thread 😂😂😂😂😂

It’s probably a metaphor

nicknyr15 · April 2024

RatherStarved said:

nicknyr15 said:

mcgruff10 said:

Kids wanted Red baron pizza. Ate one pie in seconds. I Tried a slice, nasty 🤮

That’s a great story for fan2bot thread. Maybe you should also post in the pizza thread 😂😂😂😂😂

It’s probably a metaphor

Maybe

yosi · April 2024

RatherStarved said:

nicknyr15 said:

mcgruff10 said:

Kids wanted Red baron pizza. Ate one pie in seconds. I Tried a slice, nasty 🤮

That’s a great story for fan2bot thread. Maybe you should also post in the pizza thread 😂😂😂😂😂

It’s probably a metaphor

I definitely sat there for a full minute trying to figure out how this connected to the thread…

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