America's Gun Violence #2

Halifax2TheMax · January 2023

From CBS:

Nearly three-quarters of assailants used guns to carry out mass-casualty attacks between 2016 and 2020, according to a study released by the federal government Wednesday.

Over one-third of the attackers experienced unstable housing within two decades of their attack. And nearly one-quarter shared "final communications" in the run-up to launching them, including calling people to say goodbye, authoring suicide notes and posting writings online.

The 72-page report, authored by the U.S. Secret Service's National Threat Assessment Center, analyzed 173 incidents that resulted in three or more individuals injured or killed across public or semi-public spaces, including businesses, schools and houses of worship. Researchers hope new insights into the behaviors of attackers will prevent future tragedies by informing bystander reporting.

The findings — which span 37 states and Washington, D.C. — come as a community in Monterey Park, California, mourns the death of 11 people after a gunman opened fire in a ballroom during Lunar New Year celebrations over the weekend. Less than two days later, seven people were killed in a mass shooting at two mushroom farms in the Northern California city of Half Moon Bay. Three people were fatally shot in an attack at a convenience store in Yakima, Washington, on Tuesday.

"There is no community that is immune from this," said Dr. Lina Alathari, chief of the U.S. Secret Service National Threat Assessment Center. "But we do see commonalities that will help us with prevention."

Here are the key takeaways:

1. Nearly three-quarters of attacks carried out using firearms.

Attackers in 73% of mass casualty incidents used one or more firearms to kill or maim victims.

"In terms of fatalities when you compare weapon types, over 80% of the incidents using firearms were fatal. For other weapons, just under half of [the incidents] caused fatalities," Alathari said.

Approximately three-quarters of attackers used a handgun, while roughly one-third wielded a long gun.

In one striking example, the report cites a 38-year-old Kansas man who killed three people and injured 14 others in a 2016 shooting while under the influence of methamphetamine. The gunman, who was ultimately shot and killed by police, first opened fire at a series of cars after he was sent a civil protection order from his ex-girlfriend. Roughly six months before the incident, the attacker acquired the pistol and rifle used in his attack from a different ex-girlfriend, who purchased the weapons for him after he threatened her with violence.

Nearly one-quarter of attacks involved at least one firearm acquired illegally by the attacker, including those bought through straw purchases, theft, private sellers and online parts.

Researchers were only able to track down the timing of gun acquisitions in the case of 50 attacks. But in 19 of those incidents, the firearm was acquired within one month of the attack. In the case of three, it was acquired on the same day as the attack.

2. Saying goodbye: Nearly a quarter of attackers shared "final communications."

Nearly a third of the 180 attackers — 28% — issued final communications or acts suggesting an imminent attack, including production of farewell videos, journals or writings that detailed their plans and motives. Others made goodbye calls to friends and family, left suicide notes or wrote cryptic messages to others indicating they would not see them again.

"Final acts, some of which were part of planning, included attackers terminating a lease, giving away personal possessions, no longer buying food for a pet, verifying or changing life insurance, and securing finances for family members," according to the report.

Prior to detonating an explosive inside his RV on Christmas Day, 63-year-old Anthony Quinn Warner, who took his own life and wounded three others in downtown Nashville, gifted his house and told a client that he was retiring. Days before the bombing, he gave his car to a friend. Just hours before the attack, he broadcast announcements from his RV warning nearby pedestrians of an imminent explosion and ultimately counting down.

In 33 of the attacks, assailants made statements or engaged in prior behaviors that indicated they did not plan to survive the attack. Of those, 18 attackers died by suicide, including two who counted their shots, saving the final bullets for themselves.

3. Nearly all attackers experienced one or more significant stressors within five years of the attack.

Roughly 93% of attackers dealt with personal issues ranging from health problems to divorce, domestic abuse, car accidents, school expulsions, disciplinary actions at work and cyber bullying, among a slew of other challenges.

For 139 attackers — 77% — the stressors occurred within one year of the mass-casualty incident. Seventy-two percent of attackers specifically experienced a financial stressor sometime prior to their attack.

Of the 180 attackers analyzed, researchers found 39% had experienced unstable housing within 20 years of their attacks, including 17% who were experiencing homelessness at the time of the attack, and three assailants who targeted other members of the homeless population.

In the U.S., the number of homeless people is calculated by the Department of Housing and Urban Development. The department counts people on the street and in homeless shelters annually in December. In 2022, that number was 582,462.

Just over one-third of the attackers had a history of using illicit drugs, misusing prescription medications or abusing substances like alcohol or marijuana, which often led to "negative consequences because of their substance use, including criminal charges, professional or academic failures, court-ordered programs, and evictions," according to the report.

According to the Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration, 61.2 million people nationwide ages 12 or older — 22% of the U.S. population — used illicit drugs in the past year, and 9.2 million people misused opioids.

Nearly one-third of the attackers detailed in the Secret Service study had at least one contact with law enforcement that did not result in arrest, including attackers who had engaged in acts of domestic violence (23%), violent crimes (23%) and nonviolent crimes (22%).

4. Over half of attackers experienced mental health symptoms prior to or at the time of their attacks.

"The vast majority of individuals in the U.S. who experience the mental health issues discussed…do not commit acts of crime or violence," the report noted. "The symptoms described in this section constitute potential contributing factors and should not be viewed as causal explanations for why the attacks occurred."

Symptoms found among the 58% of attackers included depression, psychotic symptoms and suicidal thoughts.

"The age of symptom onset varied, with some attackers first experiencing symptoms in adolescence while others' symptoms began later in life," the report read.

The statistic squares with national estimates. According to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, over half of the U.S. population will be diagnosed with a mental health illness at some point in their lifetime.

"Mental health symptoms alone are not a correlation for acting violently," Dr. Alathari said. "In fact, the vast majority of individuals in this country with mental health issues would never become violent, but it is an important factor to consider in the context of assessing an individual that might come to our attention for eliciting concern."

Nearly one-third of the attackers previously received some sort of mental health treatment, though care "varied widely and was often not sustained," according to the report.

5. More than half of attackers were motivated by grievances and sought retaliation for perceived wrongs.

While grievances most often related to personal stress linked to health, finances, bullying or feelings of victimization, 17% of grievances were related to issues with a current or former domestic relationship and 10% were connected to the workplace.

Analysts concluded that "grievances have remained the most common component to the motives of mass attackers from 2016 to 2020."

And while attackers' ages ranged from 14 to 87, with an average age of 34, nearly all the 180 attackers (96%) in the report were male.

6. One-quarter of the attackers subscribed to conspiracy theories or hateful ideologies.

These belief systems included anti-government, anti-Semitic and misogynistic views, among others.

At least 35 attackers (19%) displayed misogynistic behaviors prior to attacks — such as sexual harassment, threatening sexual violence and calling women by derogatory names.

Conspiracy theories observed among the attackers included false beliefs "that the moon landing was staged by the government, Jewish people were trying to take over the world, aliens or lizard people were preparing to take over, people of Chinese descent were responsible for the spread of coronavirus, and the U.N. was plotting to disarm U.S. citizens," the report indicated.

At least six attackers became radicalized in their beliefs through online engagement, though nearly two-thirds of the 180 attackers had an identified presence online, with some posting on blogs or social media.

"Nearly one-quarter were found to have conveyed concerning communications online, such as threats to harm others and posts referencing suicidal ideations, previous mass shootings, violent content, and hate toward a particular ethnic group," according to the report.

7. Three-quarters of the attackers exhibited concerning behavior that caught the attention of family members, friends, neighbors, classmates, co-workers and others.

Researchers determined that nearly two-thirds of the 180 attackers exhibited "objectively concerning or prohibited" behaviors, or shared communications that were so concerning, "they should have been met with an immediate response."

Of those attackers, nearly half — 49 % — exhibit concerning behaviors shared disturbing communications and direct threats, including threats to harm others, threats of domestic violence, references to an impending attack and talk of building or acquiring weapons, among other communications.

The study revealed "half of the attacks involving a business location and the attackers often had a prior relationship with the business, either as a current or former employee, or as a customer."

Analysts stressed that members of the community should engage in proactive bystander reporting and urge businesses to "consider establishing workplace violence prevention plans to identify, assess, and intervene with current employees, former employees, and customers who may pose a risk of violence."

Over 21,000 organizations — including schools, houses of worship, businesses, law enforcement agencies and even sports leagues, like the NBA and MLB — have signed up for virtual training issued by the Secret Service, according to Alathari.

While Wednesday's report does not address this week's mass shootings, Alathari said the events "impact" her team, in part because "we study them day in and day out."

"We want to make sure communities have this information that the Secret Service is putting out," Alathari added. "We have the science. We have the guidance. We want people to use it so that we can try to prevent future, horrific acts of violence."

https://apple.news/AyWptORpeT6SPMv0ptGLXfg

Halifax2TheMax · January 2023

mace1229 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

mace1229 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

mace1229 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

Gee, I wonder what the white community’s responsibility is as it relates to gun violence in ‘Murica? Anyone?

Why is a white community's responsibility any different when it comes to violence and guns?

Different? I’m asking what it is. Can you tell me?

You singled out the white community when it comes to responsibility, implying that it is different than the rest. Typically a response of "gee I wonder..." isn't really a question, but a statement or rhetorical question. I didn't know you wanted an answer.

Does the white community bear any responsibility for lessening the frequency of gun violence in ‘Murica or does it, or 2/3 of it anyway, reside solely with the black community?

Yes, they bear the same responsibility as anyone else. Why do. you keep singling out white communities if they aren't held to a different standard? I'm not getting your point. I never said white communities were exempt from gun responsibility. It all falls on us equally.

But you singled out the black community in your post, did you not?

mace1229 · January 2023

Halifax2TheMax said:

mace1229 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

mace1229 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

mace1229 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

Gee, I wonder what the white community’s responsibility is as it relates to gun violence in ‘Murica? Anyone?

Why is a white community's responsibility any different when it comes to violence and guns?

Different? I’m asking what it is. Can you tell me?

You singled out the white community when it comes to responsibility, implying that it is different than the rest. Typically a response of "gee I wonder..." isn't really a question, but a statement or rhetorical question. I didn't know you wanted an answer.

Does the white community bear any responsibility for lessening the frequency of gun violence in ‘Murica or does it, or 2/3 of it anyway, reside solely with the black community?

Yes, they bear the same responsibility as anyone else. Why do. you keep singling out white communities if they aren't held to a different standard? I'm not getting your point. I never said white communities were exempt from gun responsibility. It all falls on us equally.

But you singled out the black community in your post, did you not?

Yes, I was providing some well known data about gun violence. How can we expect to solve it if we can't discuss it? I didnn't bring it up as a blame game. But gun violence is 10 times greater in black communities. How are we failing those communities so we can improve it? We cant improve it if we cant talk about it. I mentioned it as the elephant no one wants to bring up and Brian seemed to not understand why I said that, but this is why. It seems like you have taken offense to it for some reason.

Halifax2TheMax · January 2023

Here’s Mace’s post again. Why’d you single out the black community?

I’ve always thought it was funny, one of the biggest factors is the elephant in the room we’re not allowed to discuss.
it’s the minority/poverty communities that have a ridiculous rate of gun homicides. Blacks make up about 2/3 of gun deaths, while only being about 15% of the population. They are 10 times more likely to die from a gun than a white person. We ignore this, even lash out when people bring up race, then scratch or head why we aren’t improving.
But we aren’t doing our minority kids any favors. Inner city schools are terrible, kids are failing out and gravitate towards crime. We make more excuses and the cycle gets worse.

That’s the main reason we moved over the summer, I couldn’t be a part of it anymore. Working in an all minority school in the inner city, they refused to discipline. Fights would break out in class and they’d just send the kids back because it was racist to discipline a minority student. Literally what I was told by admin.
So we fail them there, they don’t get an education, get stuck in a community of poverty and have 10 times the rate of gun violence. And we act surprised.

HughFreakingDillon · January 2023

mace1229 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

compare mass shootings per 100,000 by country:

https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2021/03/24/980838151/gun-violence-deaths-how-the-u-s-compares-to-the-rest-of-the-world

to gun ownership per 100 citizens:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estimated_number_of_civilian_guns_per_capita_by_country

the US rates highest, by far, in guns per person (double 2nd place). But rates 32nd in gun deaths per capita.

I’ve always thought it was funny, one of the biggest factors is the elephant in the room we’re not allowed to discuss.
it’s the minority/poverty communities that have a ridiculous rate of gun homicides. Blacks make up about 2/3 of gun deaths, while only being about 15% of the population. They are 10 times more likely to die from a gun than a white person. We ignore this, even lash out when people bring up race, then scratch or head why we aren’t improving.
But we aren’t doing our minority kids any favors. Inner city schools are terrible, kids are failing out and gravitate towards crime. We make more excuses and the cycle gets worse.
That’s the main reason we moved over the summer, I couldn’t be a part of it anymore. Working in an all minority school in the inner city, they refused to discipline. Fights would break out in class and they’d just send the kids back because it was racist to discipline a minority student. Literally what I was told by admin.
So we fail them there, they don’t get an education, get stuck in a community of poverty and have 10 times the rate of gun violence. And we act surprised.

because people attribute it to race, when it's really class. and most people of lower class happen to be a certain colour because of the oppression by another colour.

it's the same as indigenous making up so much more of our prison population than they should. Well, yes, that's true, but it's not BECAUSE they are indigenous. It's because they are typically lower class, because of the same reason above.

uneducated people take that is "those fuckin' indians are savages", like it's because of their heritage rather than what oppression has done to them as a people.

Gern Blansten · January 2023

HughFreakingDillon said:

mace1229 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

compare mass shootings per 100,000 by country:

https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2021/03/24/980838151/gun-violence-deaths-how-the-u-s-compares-to-the-rest-of-the-world

to gun ownership per 100 citizens:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estimated_number_of_civilian_guns_per_capita_by_country

the US rates highest, by far, in guns per person (double 2nd place). But rates 32nd in gun deaths per capita.

I’ve always thought it was funny, one of the biggest factors is the elephant in the room we’re not allowed to discuss.
it’s the minority/poverty communities that have a ridiculous rate of gun homicides. Blacks make up about 2/3 of gun deaths, while only being about 15% of the population. They are 10 times more likely to die from a gun than a white person. We ignore this, even lash out when people bring up race, then scratch or head why we aren’t improving.
But we aren’t doing our minority kids any favors. Inner city schools are terrible, kids are failing out and gravitate towards crime. We make more excuses and the cycle gets worse.
That’s the main reason we moved over the summer, I couldn’t be a part of it anymore. Working in an all minority school in the inner city, they refused to discipline. Fights would break out in class and they’d just send the kids back because it was racist to discipline a minority student. Literally what I was told by admin.
So we fail them there, they don’t get an education, get stuck in a community of poverty and have 10 times the rate of gun violence. And we act surprised.

because people attribute it to race, when it's really class. and most people of lower class happen to be a certain colour because of the oppression by another colour.

it's the same as indigenous making up so much more of our prison population than they should. Well, yes, that's true, but it's not BECAUSE they are indigenous. It's because they are typically lower class, because of the same reason above.

uneducated people take that is "those fuckin' indians are savages", like it's because of their heritage rather than what oppression has done to them as a people.

exactly...class and education level.

The GOP needs to stop cutting education funding and stop fucking around with charter schools and strengthen our public school system.

mace1229 · January 2023

HughFreakingDillon said:

mace1229 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

compare mass shootings per 100,000 by country:

https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2021/03/24/980838151/gun-violence-deaths-how-the-u-s-compares-to-the-rest-of-the-world

to gun ownership per 100 citizens:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estimated_number_of_civilian_guns_per_capita_by_country

the US rates highest, by far, in guns per person (double 2nd place). But rates 32nd in gun deaths per capita.

I’ve always thought it was funny, one of the biggest factors is the elephant in the room we’re not allowed to discuss.
it’s the minority/poverty communities that have a ridiculous rate of gun homicides. Blacks make up about 2/3 of gun deaths, while only being about 15% of the population. They are 10 times more likely to die from a gun than a white person. We ignore this, even lash out when people bring up race, then scratch or head why we aren’t improving.
But we aren’t doing our minority kids any favors. Inner city schools are terrible, kids are failing out and gravitate towards crime. We make more excuses and the cycle gets worse.
That’s the main reason we moved over the summer, I couldn’t be a part of it anymore. Working in an all minority school in the inner city, they refused to discipline. Fights would break out in class and they’d just send the kids back because it was racist to discipline a minority student. Literally what I was told by admin.
So we fail them there, they don’t get an education, get stuck in a community of poverty and have 10 times the rate of gun violence. And we act surprised.

because people attribute it to race, when it's really class. and most people of lower class happen to be a certain colour because of the oppression by another colour.

it's the same as indigenous making up so much more of our prison population than they should. Well, yes, that's true, but it's not BECAUSE they are indigenous. It's because they are typically lower class, because of the same reason above.

uneducated people take that is "those fuckin' indians are savages", like it's because of their heritage rather than what oppression has done to them as a people.

Completely agree on that. I also tried to expand and talk about how we are failing them in schools. It is not about color. Its about social-economic status and failing schools that make it harder to break that cycle. Unfortunately, that situation is more common in minorty/black neighborhoods. We can't fix it if we imply racism every time someone brings it up.

mace1229 · January 2023

Halifax2TheMax said:

Here’s Mace’s post again. Why’d you single out the black community?

I’ve always thought it was funny, one of the biggest factors is the elephant in the room we’re not allowed to discuss.
it’s the minority/poverty communities that have a ridiculous rate of gun homicides. Blacks make up about 2/3 of gun deaths, while only being about 15% of the population. They are 10 times more likely to die from a gun than a white person. We ignore this, even lash out when people bring up race, then scratch or head why we aren’t improving.
But we aren’t doing our minority kids any favors. Inner city schools are terrible, kids are failing out and gravitate towards crime. We make more excuses and the cycle gets worse.
That’s the main reason we moved over the summer, I couldn’t be a part of it anymore. Working in an all minority school in the inner city, they refused to discipline. Fights would break out in class and they’d just send the kids back because it was racist to discipline a minority student. Literally what I was told by admin.
So we fail them there, they don’t get an education, get stuck in a community of poverty and have 10 times the rate of gun violence. And we act surprised.

Yes. Everyone who is physically incapable of scrolling back 8 posts from 2 hours ago greatly appreciates the help.

Halifax2TheMax · January 2023

mace1229 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

Here’s Mace’s post again. Why’d you single out the black community?

I’ve always thought it was funny, one of the biggest factors is the elephant in the room we’re not allowed to discuss.
it’s the minority/poverty communities that have a ridiculous rate of gun homicides. Blacks make up about 2/3 of gun deaths, while only being about 15% of the population. They are 10 times more likely to die from a gun than a white person. We ignore this, even lash out when people bring up race, then scratch or head why we aren’t improving.
But we aren’t doing our minority kids any favors. Inner city schools are terrible, kids are failing out and gravitate towards crime. We make more excuses and the cycle gets worse.
That’s the main reason we moved over the summer, I couldn’t be a part of it anymore. Working in an all minority school in the inner city, they refused to discipline. Fights would break out in class and they’d just send the kids back because it was racist to discipline a minority student. Literally what I was told by admin.
So we fail them there, they don’t get an education, get stuck in a community of poverty and have 10 times the rate of gun violence. And we act surprised.

Yes. Everyone who is physically incapable of scrolling back 8 posts from 2 hours ago greatly appreciates the help.

I just thought I'd illustrate that it was you who singled out a community. And to answer your question, maybe, just maybe, the white community bears a little more responsibility considering they control the majority of levers of power that impact all aspects of this issue? Maybe? But lets talk about the elephant that we can't talk about, the black community.

When the new Congress comes into session in January, there will be more Black Republicans serving together on Capitol Hill than at any point since 1877.

The number? Five.1

For years, Republicans have struggled to recruit and elect Black candidates. But heading into this year’s primary election season, national Republicans boasted that more than 80 Black Republicans — a historical feat for the party — were running on the GOP ticket. After the primaries, only 31 Black Republicans actually made it onto the ballot, according to a FiveThirtyEight analysis of primary race winners. Almost all of those candidates lost.

Congress Will Have The Most Black Republicans In Over A Century | FiveThirtyEight

tempo_n_groove · January 2023

mace1229 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

mace1229 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

compare mass shootings per 100,000 by country:

https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2021/03/24/980838151/gun-violence-deaths-how-the-u-s-compares-to-the-rest-of-the-world

to gun ownership per 100 citizens:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estimated_number_of_civilian_guns_per_capita_by_country

the US rates highest, by far, in guns per person (double 2nd place). But rates 32nd in gun deaths per capita.

I’ve always thought it was funny, one of the biggest factors is the elephant in the room we’re not allowed to discuss.
it’s the minority/poverty communities that have a ridiculous rate of gun homicides. Blacks make up about 2/3 of gun deaths, while only being about 15% of the population. They are 10 times more likely to die from a gun than a white person. We ignore this, even lash out when people bring up race, then scratch or head why we aren’t improving.
But we aren’t doing our minority kids any favors. Inner city schools are terrible, kids are failing out and gravitate towards crime. We make more excuses and the cycle gets worse.
That’s the main reason we moved over the summer, I couldn’t be a part of it anymore. Working in an all minority school in the inner city, they refused to discipline. Fights would break out in class and they’d just send the kids back because it was racist to discipline a minority student. Literally what I was told by admin.
So we fail them there, they don’t get an education, get stuck in a community of poverty and have 10 times the rate of gun violence. And we act surprised.

because people attribute it to race, when it's really class. and most people of lower class happen to be a certain colour because of the oppression by another colour.

it's the same as indigenous making up so much more of our prison population than they should. Well, yes, that's true, but it's not BECAUSE they are indigenous. It's because they are typically lower class, because of the same reason above.

uneducated people take that is "those fuckin' indians are savages", like it's because of their heritage rather than what oppression has done to them as a people.

Completely agree on that. I also tried to expand and talk about how we are failing them in schools. It is not about color. Its about social-economic status and failing schools that make it harder to break that cycle. Unfortunately, that situation is more common in minorty/black neighborhoods. We can't fix it if we imply racism every time someone brings it up.

Well I will tell you this, we throw a ton of money towards the schools and still nothing changes unfortunately...

My friend teaches in a charter school and they are encouraged to pass the kids. Give the kids a free pass. That sure as hell ain't helping prepare them for what's out there.

Kids in her school are broken.

I hear very few success stories in the inner cities. I would love to hear more but it seems that there is no silver bullet to fix it, there is a vicious cycle. I do believe that something can be done, no one has found the right way yet.

tempo_n_groove · January 2023

Gun violence though? Change a few things. i'm ok with that but make it 50 states across the board, but that can't be done anymore because of the new precedents that came about during Trump...

mace1229 · January 2023

tempo_n_groove said:

mace1229 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

mace1229 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

compare mass shootings per 100,000 by country:

https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2021/03/24/980838151/gun-violence-deaths-how-the-u-s-compares-to-the-rest-of-the-world

to gun ownership per 100 citizens:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estimated_number_of_civilian_guns_per_capita_by_country

the US rates highest, by far, in guns per person (double 2nd place). But rates 32nd in gun deaths per capita.

I’ve always thought it was funny, one of the biggest factors is the elephant in the room we’re not allowed to discuss.
it’s the minority/poverty communities that have a ridiculous rate of gun homicides. Blacks make up about 2/3 of gun deaths, while only being about 15% of the population. They are 10 times more likely to die from a gun than a white person. We ignore this, even lash out when people bring up race, then scratch or head why we aren’t improving.
But we aren’t doing our minority kids any favors. Inner city schools are terrible, kids are failing out and gravitate towards crime. We make more excuses and the cycle gets worse.
That’s the main reason we moved over the summer, I couldn’t be a part of it anymore. Working in an all minority school in the inner city, they refused to discipline. Fights would break out in class and they’d just send the kids back because it was racist to discipline a minority student. Literally what I was told by admin.
So we fail them there, they don’t get an education, get stuck in a community of poverty and have 10 times the rate of gun violence. And we act surprised.

because people attribute it to race, when it's really class. and most people of lower class happen to be a certain colour because of the oppression by another colour.

it's the same as indigenous making up so much more of our prison population than they should. Well, yes, that's true, but it's not BECAUSE they are indigenous. It's because they are typically lower class, because of the same reason above.

uneducated people take that is "those fuckin' indians are savages", like it's because of their heritage rather than what oppression has done to them as a people.

Completely agree on that. I also tried to expand and talk about how we are failing them in schools. It is not about color. Its about social-economic status and failing schools that make it harder to break that cycle. Unfortunately, that situation is more common in minorty/black neighborhoods. We can't fix it if we imply racism every time someone brings it up.

Well I will tell you this, we throw a ton of money towards the schools and still nothing changes unfortunately...

My friend teaches in a charter school and they are encouraged to pass the kids. Give the kids a free pass. That sure as hell ain't helping prepare them for what's out there.

Kids in her school are broken.

I hear very few success stories in the inner cities. I would love to hear more but it seems that there is no silver bullet to fix it, there is a vicious cycle. I do believe that something can be done, no one has found the right way yet.

Absolutely. I've worked in inner city schools in LA and Denver. I've seen some terrible things and I've seen some success. In my experience at the schools I've been at, it came down to accountability. Some schools or districts refuse to discipline or fail minority students. They track numbers and don't want a higher discipline rate or fails for a minority school than they do at the upper-middle class school across town. I've seen fights break out in class where kids just get sent back. Seen kids throw trashcans in the cafeteria, kids throw tables and chairs in class. My wife taught in Brooklyn before we met and she was punched by a kid and the school refused to discipline him. Another kid threw a desk out the window into the street and nothing. Its an environment that is completely impossible to learn in. And like you said, I've been encouraged to pass kids who have rarely even shown up to class. I usually don't, which doesn't make the admin happy. Teachers often get reprimanded if they fail more than 10 out of 150 kids. But thats how we fail our kids. We hold them to a lower standard and they live up to it.
My school in south-central LA was really good. It was a small charter school, so the principal had a little more freedom. But it was the same kids. If a kid cussed a teacher, he got suspended. And guess what, we had a 98% graduation rate (it was a little inflated, but still good) and kids actually learned and went on to college.
On paper these schools think they're doing the right thing by keeping them in school and passing them. But in reality they are failing them, they are not prepared for life, they don't learn and can't break the cycle of poverty.

Gern Blansten · January 2023

mace1229 said:

tempo_n_groove said:

mace1229 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

mace1229 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

compare mass shootings per 100,000 by country:

https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2021/03/24/980838151/gun-violence-deaths-how-the-u-s-compares-to-the-rest-of-the-world

to gun ownership per 100 citizens:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estimated_number_of_civilian_guns_per_capita_by_country

the US rates highest, by far, in guns per person (double 2nd place). But rates 32nd in gun deaths per capita.

I’ve always thought it was funny, one of the biggest factors is the elephant in the room we’re not allowed to discuss.
it’s the minority/poverty communities that have a ridiculous rate of gun homicides. Blacks make up about 2/3 of gun deaths, while only being about 15% of the population. They are 10 times more likely to die from a gun than a white person. We ignore this, even lash out when people bring up race, then scratch or head why we aren’t improving.
But we aren’t doing our minority kids any favors. Inner city schools are terrible, kids are failing out and gravitate towards crime. We make more excuses and the cycle gets worse.
That’s the main reason we moved over the summer, I couldn’t be a part of it anymore. Working in an all minority school in the inner city, they refused to discipline. Fights would break out in class and they’d just send the kids back because it was racist to discipline a minority student. Literally what I was told by admin.
So we fail them there, they don’t get an education, get stuck in a community of poverty and have 10 times the rate of gun violence. And we act surprised.

because people attribute it to race, when it's really class. and most people of lower class happen to be a certain colour because of the oppression by another colour.

it's the same as indigenous making up so much more of our prison population than they should. Well, yes, that's true, but it's not BECAUSE they are indigenous. It's because they are typically lower class, because of the same reason above.

uneducated people take that is "those fuckin' indians are savages", like it's because of their heritage rather than what oppression has done to them as a people.

Completely agree on that. I also tried to expand and talk about how we are failing them in schools. It is not about color. Its about social-economic status and failing schools that make it harder to break that cycle. Unfortunately, that situation is more common in minorty/black neighborhoods. We can't fix it if we imply racism every time someone brings it up.

Well I will tell you this, we throw a ton of money towards the schools and still nothing changes unfortunately...

My friend teaches in a charter school and they are encouraged to pass the kids. Give the kids a free pass. That sure as hell ain't helping prepare them for what's out there.

Kids in her school are broken.

I hear very few success stories in the inner cities. I would love to hear more but it seems that there is no silver bullet to fix it, there is a vicious cycle. I do believe that something can be done, no one has found the right way yet.

Absolutely. I've worked in inner city schools in LA and Denver. I've seen some terrible things and I've seen some success. In my experience at the schools I've been at, it came down to accountability. Some schools or districts refuse to discipline or fail minority students. They track numbers and don't want a higher discipline rate or fails for a minority school than they do at the upper-middle class school across town. I've seen fights break out in class where kids just get sent back. Seen kids throw trashcans in the cafeteria, kids throw tables and chairs in class. My wife taught in Brooklyn before we met and she was punched by a kid and the school refused to discipline him. Another kid threw a desk out the window into the street and nothing. Its an environment that is completely impossible to learn in. And like you said, I've been encouraged to pass kids who have rarely even shown up to class. I usually don't, which doesn't make the admin happy. Teachers often get reprimanded if they fail more than 10 out of 150 kids. But thats how we fail our kids. We hold them to a lower standard and they live up to it.
My school in south-central LA was really good. It was a small charter school, so the principal had a little more freedom. But it was the same kids. If a kid cussed a teacher, he got suspended. And guess what, we had a 98% graduation rate (it was a little inflated, but still good) and kids actually learned and went on to college.
On paper these schools think they're doing the right thing by keeping them in school and passing them. But in reality they are failing them, they are not prepared for life, they don't learn and can't break the cycle of poverty.

Isn't it all about funding though? I'm convinced that we need to put tons more money toward education.

In this case those students need smaller class sizes and teachers that can directly relate to them. Make them good citizens rather than always rejecting them.

It just seems like your hands are tied.

tempo_n_groove · January 2023

Gern Blansten said:

mace1229 said:

tempo_n_groove said:

mace1229 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

mace1229 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

compare mass shootings per 100,000 by country:

https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2021/03/24/980838151/gun-violence-deaths-how-the-u-s-compares-to-the-rest-of-the-world

to gun ownership per 100 citizens:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estimated_number_of_civilian_guns_per_capita_by_country

the US rates highest, by far, in guns per person (double 2nd place). But rates 32nd in gun deaths per capita.

I’ve always thought it was funny, one of the biggest factors is the elephant in the room we’re not allowed to discuss.
it’s the minority/poverty communities that have a ridiculous rate of gun homicides. Blacks make up about 2/3 of gun deaths, while only being about 15% of the population. They are 10 times more likely to die from a gun than a white person. We ignore this, even lash out when people bring up race, then scratch or head why we aren’t improving.
But we aren’t doing our minority kids any favors. Inner city schools are terrible, kids are failing out and gravitate towards crime. We make more excuses and the cycle gets worse.
That’s the main reason we moved over the summer, I couldn’t be a part of it anymore. Working in an all minority school in the inner city, they refused to discipline. Fights would break out in class and they’d just send the kids back because it was racist to discipline a minority student. Literally what I was told by admin.
So we fail them there, they don’t get an education, get stuck in a community of poverty and have 10 times the rate of gun violence. And we act surprised.

because people attribute it to race, when it's really class. and most people of lower class happen to be a certain colour because of the oppression by another colour.

it's the same as indigenous making up so much more of our prison population than they should. Well, yes, that's true, but it's not BECAUSE they are indigenous. It's because they are typically lower class, because of the same reason above.

uneducated people take that is "those fuckin' indians are savages", like it's because of their heritage rather than what oppression has done to them as a people.

Completely agree on that. I also tried to expand and talk about how we are failing them in schools. It is not about color. Its about social-economic status and failing schools that make it harder to break that cycle. Unfortunately, that situation is more common in minorty/black neighborhoods. We can't fix it if we imply racism every time someone brings it up.

Well I will tell you this, we throw a ton of money towards the schools and still nothing changes unfortunately...

My friend teaches in a charter school and they are encouraged to pass the kids. Give the kids a free pass. That sure as hell ain't helping prepare them for what's out there.

Kids in her school are broken.

I hear very few success stories in the inner cities. I would love to hear more but it seems that there is no silver bullet to fix it, there is a vicious cycle. I do believe that something can be done, no one has found the right way yet.

Absolutely. I've worked in inner city schools in LA and Denver. I've seen some terrible things and I've seen some success. In my experience at the schools I've been at, it came down to accountability. Some schools or districts refuse to discipline or fail minority students. They track numbers and don't want a higher discipline rate or fails for a minority school than they do at the upper-middle class school across town. I've seen fights break out in class where kids just get sent back. Seen kids throw trashcans in the cafeteria, kids throw tables and chairs in class. My wife taught in Brooklyn before we met and she was punched by a kid and the school refused to discipline him. Another kid threw a desk out the window into the street and nothing. Its an environment that is completely impossible to learn in. And like you said, I've been encouraged to pass kids who have rarely even shown up to class. I usually don't, which doesn't make the admin happy. Teachers often get reprimanded if they fail more than 10 out of 150 kids. But thats how we fail our kids. We hold them to a lower standard and they live up to it.
My school in south-central LA was really good. It was a small charter school, so the principal had a little more freedom. But it was the same kids. If a kid cussed a teacher, he got suspended. And guess what, we had a 98% graduation rate (it was a little inflated, but still good) and kids actually learned and went on to college.
On paper these schools think they're doing the right thing by keeping them in school and passing them. But in reality they are failing them, they are not prepared for life, they don't learn and can't break the cycle of poverty.

Isn't it all about funding though? I'm convinced that we need to put tons more money toward education.

In this case those students need smaller class sizes and teachers that can directly relate to them. Make them good citizens rather than always rejecting them.
It just seems like your hands are tied.

Sorry for the tangent AMT...

I've had enough conversations on this with teachers to have an opinion so here goes.

Funding, yes. The school gets funding by kids passing though. Failing grades means less money for the school. The kids don't give a shit. I know I didn't give a shit back in school and the poor teacher was accountable for me not caring. Hows that for accountability?

Smaller class sizes are always recommended. Schools are required to have a SPecEd licensed teacher/helper in the classroom to spend more time with the less qualified kids. No longer are certain students excluded from the class, everyone is included for the same curriculum. This causes some students to get most of the attention from the teacher if there isn't a SpEd in the room. The resources get put all into one kid. That isn't fair to the rest of the class.

A good teacher can relate or be empathetic at least and not walk the same way to school as everyone else did. Some teachers are better than others and the kids know.

Admins come up with ideas all the time on how to improve the learning experience. The problem is they all keep repeating the same errors. it's been done before but this new admin higher is going to put their stamp on things to get the school righted and in the end it's a cycle... Admins also don't like to be given ideas from the teachers, the seem to think teachers are beneath them.

So you've never taught and won't take ideas from the people who actually do the work? Hmmm Maybe watch an episode of undercover boss. Maybe that will change your minds...

So that is is in a nutshell from the many teachers I know.

HughFreakingDillon · January 2023

it is such a backwards fucking system that in order to get funding, kids need to do well, but in order for them to do well, they need funding.

Gern Blansten · January 2023

HughFreakingDillon said:

it is such a backwards fucking system that in order to get funding, kids need to do well, but in order for them to do well, they need funding.

And that needs to change. We need to throw a shit ton of money at it and make it work.

tempo_n_groove · January 2023

Gern Blansten said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

it is such a backwards fucking system that in order to get funding, kids need to do well, but in order for them to do well, they need funding.

And that needs to change. We need to throw a shit ton of money at it and make it work.

A lot of money does get thrown in, it just goes to admin rather than the school or teachers themselves.

Look at the salary of a Principal and superintendent compared to a teacher.

Gern Blansten · January 2023

tempo_n_groove said:

Gern Blansten said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

it is such a backwards fucking system that in order to get funding, kids need to do well, but in order for them to do well, they need funding.

And that needs to change. We need to throw a shit ton of money at it and make it work.

A lot of money does get thrown in, it just goes to admin rather than the school or teachers themselves.

Look at the salary of a Principal and superintendent compared to a teacher.

More money. Increase teacher pay. More teachers.

HughFreakingDillon · January 2023

this is how much you get paid in Winnipeg as a teacher:

Image: https://www.wta.mb.ca/wp-content/uploads/2022/02/Screen-Shot-2022-02-07-at-10.12.45-AM.png

how to know what classification:

Section 29, Part A – Teachers and Clinicians
Class	Years of Study	Professional and Academic Qualifications
Class 1	1 year	One year of professional course work.
Class 2	2 years	At least two years of university study, including at least one year of professional course work.
Class 3	3 years	At least three years of university study, including at least one year of professional course work.
Class 4	4 years	A three-year Bachelor's degree or approved equivalent and a one-year B.Ed. A four-year B.Ed. or approved equivalent.
Class 5	5 years	A three-year Bachelor's degree or approved equivalent and one of the following: two-year B.Ed after-degree; an approved post-baccalaureate diploma or certificate and a one year B.Ed. a one year graduate level degree and a one-year B.Ed. All of the following: a three-year Bachelor's degree or approved equivalent; a second Bachelor's degree or approved equivalent; a one-year B.Ed. A four-year B.Ed and one of the following: a second Bachelor's degree; a one-year graduate level degree. A four-year Bachelor's degree or approved equivalent and at least one additional year of professional course work.
Class 6	6 years	A four-year Bachelor's degree or approved equivalent and a two-year B.Ed. All of the following: a three-year bachelor's degree or approved equivalent; a one-year B.Ed; two approved post-baccalaureate diplomas or certificates. The qualifications for Class 5, and one of the following that is in addition to the person's Class 5 qualifications: a Bachelor's degree; an approved post-baccalaureate diploma or certificate; a graduate level degree.
Class 7	7 years	If a person holds a Master's degree as part of his or her being qualified for Class 6, the qualifications for Class 6 combined with an additional bachelor's degree; or an additional graduate level degree. If a person does not hold a Master's degree as part of his or her being qualified for Class 6, the qualifications for Class 6 combined with a Master's degree.

static111 · January 2023

Imagine if we cut the pentagon funding in half and put it toward something worthwhile like education. Unfortunately our country prefers to have the biggest guns not only at home but also abroad. Weird that a society where the majority of tax dollars go to weapons and military sponsored violence has such a problem with violence within its own borders. It's almost like violence begets violence. I wonder if education begets education? One thing is for sure, that is not something we will learn in the good old USA.

America's Gun Violence #2

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