Ukraine

1112113115117118217

Comments

  • mickeyrat
    mickeyrat Posts: 44,385
    gift article.....

    Road to war: U.S. struggled to convince allies, and Zelensky, of risk of invasion
    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • brianlux
    brianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 43,662
    erebus said:
    Brittney Griner, WNBA star arrested on “drug” charges in Russia, could face 10 years in prison

    Look who is coming to her aid!
    Dennis Rodman has a history of basketball diplomacy

    Dennis Rodman plans Russia visit to seek release of Brittney Griner

    NBA hall of famer Dennis Rodman says he has permission to travel to Russia as he attempts to secure the release of fellow basketball star Brittney Griner.

    Griner was sentenced to nine years in Russian jail for drug possession earlier this month. Her lawyers have filed an appeal and there are understood to be separate talks underway over a possible prisoner swap. But Rodman told NBC this weekend that he plans to make a trip of his own to negotiate the Olympic champion’s release.

    “I got permission to go to Russia to help that girl,” Rodman told NBC News. “I’m trying to go this week.” He did not specify who had given him permission to travel to Russia.



    "It's a sad and beautiful world"
    -Roberto Benigni

  • static111
    static111 Posts: 5,074
    brianlux said:
    erebus said:
    Brittney Griner, WNBA star arrested on “drug” charges in Russia, could face 10 years in prison

    Look who is coming to her aid!
    Dennis Rodman has a history of basketball diplomacy

    Dennis Rodman plans Russia visit to seek release of Brittney Griner

    NBA hall of famer Dennis Rodman says he has permission to travel to Russia as he attempts to secure the release of fellow basketball star Brittney Griner.

    Griner was sentenced to nine years in Russian jail for drug possession earlier this month. Her lawyers have filed an appeal and there are understood to be separate talks underway over a possible prisoner swap. But Rodman told NBC this weekend that he plans to make a trip of his own to negotiate the Olympic champion’s release.

    “I got permission to go to Russia to help that girl,” Rodman told NBC News. “I’m trying to go this week.” He did not specify who had given him permission to travel to Russia.



    I love him!
    Scio me nihil scire

    There are no kings inside the gates of eden
  • mickeyrat
    mickeyrat Posts: 44,385
    edited August 2022
    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • brianlux
    brianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 43,662
    static111 said:
    brianlux said:
    erebus said:
    Brittney Griner, WNBA star arrested on “drug” charges in Russia, could face 10 years in prison

    Look who is coming to her aid!
    Dennis Rodman has a history of basketball diplomacy

    Dennis Rodman plans Russia visit to seek release of Brittney Griner

    NBA hall of famer Dennis Rodman says he has permission to travel to Russia as he attempts to secure the release of fellow basketball star Brittney Griner.

    Griner was sentenced to nine years in Russian jail for drug possession earlier this month. Her lawyers have filed an appeal and there are understood to be separate talks underway over a possible prisoner swap. But Rodman told NBC this weekend that he plans to make a trip of his own to negotiate the Olympic champion’s release.

    “I got permission to go to Russia to help that girl,” Rodman told NBC News. “I’m trying to go this week.” He did not specify who had given him permission to travel to Russia.



    I love him!

    Rodman has taken a fair amount of flack from some PJ fans over the years, and I can understand some misgivings- he's made some what I would call dumb moves- but he's an interesting character and I've always liked him despite some things he's done that left me head scratching.  But he's a true blue Pearl Jam fan and no one else has been able to bride the U.S. and North Korea the way Rodman has.  Fallible (like all of us), but fascinating.
    "It's a sad and beautiful world"
    -Roberto Benigni

  • mickeyrat
    mickeyrat Posts: 44,385


     
    US to send $3 billion in aid to Ukraine as war hits 6 months
    By LOLITA C. BALDOR and MATTHEW LEE
    2 hours ago

    WASHINGTON (AP) — As Russia's war on Ukraine drags on, U.S. security assistance is shifting to a longer-term campaign that will likely keep more American military troops in Europe into the future, including imminent plans to announce an additional roughly $3 billion in aid to train and equip Ukrainian forces to fight for years to come, U.S. officials said.

    U.S. officials told The Associated Press that the package is expected to be announced Wednesday, the day the war hits the six-month mark and Ukraine celebrates its independence day. The money will fund contracts for drones, weapons and other equipment that may not see the battlefront for a year or two, they said.

    The total of the aid package — which is being provided under the Ukraine Security Assistance Initiative — could change overnight, but not likely by much. Several officials spoke on condition of anonymity to discuss the aid before its public release.

    Unlike most previous packages, the new funding is largely aimed at helping Ukraine secure its medium- to long-term defense posture, according to officials familiar with the matter. Earlier shipments, most of them done under Presidential Drawdown Authority, have focused on Ukraine’s more immediate needs for weapons and ammunition and involved materiel that the Pentagon already has in stock that can be shipped in short order.

    In addition to providing longer-term assistance that Ukraine can use for potential future defense needs, the new package is intended to reassure Ukrainian officials that the United States intends to keep up its support, regardless of the day-to-day back and forth of the conflict, the officials said.

    NATO Secretary-General Jens Stoltenberg noted the more extended focus Tuesday as he reaffirmed the alliance’s support for the conflict-torn country.

    “Winter is coming, and it will be hard, and what we see now is a grinding war of attrition. This is a battle of wills, and a battle of logistics. Therefore we must sustain our support for Ukraine for the long term, so that Ukraine prevails as a sovereign, independent nation,” Stoltenberg said, speaking at a virtual conference about Crimea, organized by Ukraine.

    Six months after Russia invaded, the war has slowed to a grind, as both sides trade combat strikes and small advances in the east and south. Both sides have seen thousands of troops killed and injured, as Russia’s bombardment of cities has killed countless innocent civilians.

    There are fears that Russia will intensify attacks on civilian infrastructure and government facilities in Ukraine in the coming days because of the independence holiday and the six-month anniversary of the invasion.

    Late Monday, the U.S. Embassy in Ukraine and the State Department issued a new security alert for Ukraine that repeated a call for Americans in the country to leave due to the danger.

    “Given Russia’s track record in Ukraine, we are concerned about the continued threat that Russian strikes pose to civilians and civilian infrastructure,” it said.

    To date, the U.S. has provided about $10.6 billion in military aid to Ukraine since the beginning of the Biden administration, including 19 packages of weapons taken directly from Defense Department stocks since August 2021.

    U.S. defense leaders are also eyeing plans that will expand training for Ukrainian troops outside their country, and for militaries on Europe’s eastern and southern flanks that feel most threatened by Russia’s aggression.

    ___

    Associated Press writer Lorne Cook in Brussels contributed to this report.


    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • mickeyrat
    mickeyrat Posts: 44,385
    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • static111
    static111 Posts: 5,074
    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-09-03/thousands-of-czechs-protest-in-central-prague-over-energy-crisis

    Isolated incident or a sign of things to come if the sanctions keep driving inflation and energy costs into winter? Or is it just 70,000 people moved by Russian propaganda and xenophobia? Inflation and energy problems seem real enough predicted at20% we can hardly deal with 9.  But then again there is the xenophobia aspect.  I'm wondering if the fear of refugee angle would be less if the citizens weren't dealing with insane inflation?

    "Tens of thousands of Czechs protested in Prague against the government to demand more state help with rising energy bills, the largest manifestation of public discontent over the worst cost-of-living crisis in three decades.

    About 70,000 people filled Wenceslas Square in the center of the Czech capital on Saturday, according to police estimates, with some carrying signs denouncing the country’s membership of the European Union and the NATO military alliance.

    Czech inflation, driven mainly by surging housing costs and spiking energy prices, is currently the highest since 1993 and the central bank forecasts it to peak at around 20% in the coming months."

    continues

    Scio me nihil scire

    There are no kings inside the gates of eden
  • mickeyrat
    mickeyrat Posts: 44,385

     
    Russia announces troop pullback from Ukraine's Kharkiv area
    By KARL RITTER and JOANNA KOZLOWSKA
    30 mins ago

    KYIV, Ukraine (AP) — Russia’s Defense Ministry announced Saturday that it was pulling back troops from two areas in Ukraine’s eastern Kharkiv region where a Ukrainian counteroffensive has made significant advances in the past week.

    The news came after days of apparent advances by Ukraine south of Kharkiv, the country’s second-largest city, in what could become the biggest battlefield success for Ukrainian forces since they thwarted a Russian attempt to seize the capital, Kyiv, at the start of the nearly seven-month war.

    Russian Defense Ministry spokesman Igor Konashenkov said troops would be regrouped from the Balakliya and Izyum areas to the eastern Donetsk region. Izyum was a major base for Russian forces in the Kharkiv region, and earlier this week social media videos showed residents of Balakliya joyfully cheering as Ukrainian troops moved in.

    Konashenkov said the Russian move was being made “in order to achieve the stated goals of the special military operation to liberate Donbas,’” one of the eastern Ukraine regions that Russia has declared sovereign.

    The claim of a withdrawal to concentrate on Donetsk is similar to the justification Russia gave for pulling back its forces from the Kyiv region earlier this year when they failed to take the capital.

    Earlier Saturday, Ukrainian officials claimed major gains in the Kharkiv region, saying their troops had cut off vital supplies to Izyum.

    Foreign Ministry spokesman Oleh Nikolenko also suggested troops had retaken Kupiansk, a town along the main supply route to Izyum, long a focus on the Russian front line and the site of heavy artillery and other fighting. Nikolenko tweeted a photo showing soldiers in front of what he said was a government building in Kupiansk, 73 kilometers (45 miles) north of Izyum.

    The Ukrainian Security Service posted a message hours later saying troops were in Kupiansk, further suggesting it had been seized. The military did not immediately confirm entering the town, a railway hub that Russia seized in February.

    Videos on social media appeared to show Ukrainian forces on the outskirts of Izyum at a roadside checkpoint. A large statue with the city’s name could be seen in the images. Ukrainian forces did not acknowledge holding the city.

    Britain's Defense Ministry said Saturday that it believed Ukrainian troops had advanced as much as 50 kilometers (30 miles) south of Kharkiv, and described Russian forces around Izyum as “increasingly isolated.”

    “Russian forces were likely taken by surprise. The sector was only lightly held and Ukrainian units have captured or surrounded several towns,” the British military said, adding that the loss of Kupiansk would greatly affect Russian supply lines.

    The Institute for the Study of War, a Washington-based think tank, likewise referenced sweeping Ukrainian gains, estimating that Kyiv has seized around 2,500 square kilometers (965 square miles) in its eastern breakthrough. The institute said it appeared that “disorganized Russian forces (were) caught in the rapid Ukrainian advance,” and cited social media images of apparent Russian prisoners seized around Izyum and surrounding towns.

    The same report said Ukrainian forces “may collapse Russian positions around Izyum if they sever Russian ground lines of communication” north and south of the town.

    Vladislav Sokolov, head of the Russian-appointed local administration, said on social media that authorities in Izyum had started evacuating residents to Russia.

    The fighting in eastern Ukraine comes amid an ongoing offensive around Kherson in the south. Analysts suggest Russia may have taken soldiers from the east to reinforce the latter area, offering the Ukrainians the opportunity to strike a weakened front line.

    Ukrainian Defense Minister Oleksii Reznikov told the television channel Ukraina that the Russians had no food or fuel for their troops in the area as Kyiv had cut off their supply lines.

    “It will be like an avalanche,” he said, predicting a Russian fallback. “One line of defense will shake, and it will fall.”

    The Ukrainian military was more circumspect, claiming to have taken “more than 1,000 square kilometers” (386 square miles) from pro-Kremlin forces this week. It said that “in some areas, units of the Defense Forces have penetrated the enemy’s defenses to a depth of 50 kilometers,” matching the British assessment, but did not disclose geographical details.

    Officials in Kyiv have for weeks been tight-lipped about plans for a counteroffensive to retake territory overrun by Russia early in the war, urging residents to refrain from sharing information on social media.

    However, Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy said Friday that troops had reclaimed more than 30 settlements in the Kharkiv region since the start of the counteroffensive.

    “We are gradually taking control over more settlements, returning the Ukrainian flag and protection for our people,” Zelenskyy said.

    He spoke after the Ukrainian governor of Kharkiv reported that the national flag had been raised over Balakliya, recaptured by Ukrainian troops Thursday following six months of occupation.

    “Balakliya is Ukraine!” Gov. Oleh Syniehubov said in a post on Telegram.

    Elsewhere, Ukrainian emergency services reported that a 62-year-old woman was killed in a Russian missile strike in the Kharkiv region when her home was flattened overnight.

    Syniehubov also accused Moscow of pummeling settlements retaken by Kyiv. He said via Telegram that five civilians were hospitalized in the Izyum district, while nine others suffered injuries elsewhere in the region.

    In the embattled Donbas, the Ukrainian governor said civilians were killed and wounded overnight by Russian shelling near the city of Bakhmut, a key target of the stalled Russian offensive. Pavlo Kyrylenko said on Telegram that two people died and two were injured in Bakhmut and the neighboring village of Yahidne.

    In the Russina-held city of Enerhodar, home to Europe's largest nuclear power plant, electricity and water were restored after a four-day outage due to an explosion, the city's Ukrainian mayor, Dmytro Orlov, said.

    Enerhodar and its Zaporizhzhia Nuclear Power Plant have come under repeated shelling in recent weeks, which Russia and Ukraine each other the other of committing. The shelling has raised fears of a radiation leak at the plant, which has been cut off from outside power sources; the facility has been forced to rely on power from its only working reactor for systems cooling and other safety measures.

    Orlov said workers from the plant assisted in restoring Enerhodar's power, but it was not clear if the electricity was coming from the plant or from a nearby thermal generating station.

    Also Saturday, German Foreign Minister Annalena Baerbock paid an unannounced visit to Kyiv and said Europe would not tire of helping Ukraine, despite Russian President Vladimir Putin’s efforts to raise the pressure by withholding energy supplies.

    Baerbock said Germany will assist Ukraine in finding and removing mines and other unexploded ordnance left by Russian troops in areas where they have been pushed back.

    Despite Ukraine's gains, U.S. Secretary of State Antony Blinken and the head of NATO warned Friday that the war would likely drag on for months. Blinken said the conflict was entering a critical period and urged Ukraine's Western backers to keep up their support through what could be a difficult winter.

    ___

    Kozlowska reported from London. Associated Press writer Frank Jordans in Berlin contributed to this report.

    ___

    Follow all AP stories on the war in Ukraine at https://apnews.com/hub/russia-ukraine.


    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • mickeyrat
    mickeyrat Posts: 44,385

     
    Russian forces retreat amid Ukrainian counteroffensive
    By KARL RITTER and HANNA ARHIROVA
    10 mins ago

    KYIV, Ukraine (AP) — Ukrainian troops on Sunday successfully pressed their swift counteroffensive in the northeastern part of the country, even as a nuclear power plant in the Russia-occupied south completely shut down in a bid to prevent a radiation disaster as fighting raged nearby.

    Kyiv's action to reclaim Russia-occupied areas in the Kharkiv region forced Moscow to withdraw its troops to prevent them from being surrounded, leaving behind significant numbers of weapons and munitions in a hasty retreat as the war marked its 200th day on Sunday.

    A jubilant Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy mocked the Russians in a video address Saturday night, saying “the Russian army in these days is demonstrating the best that it can do — showing its back."

    He posted a video of Ukrainian soldiers hoisting the national flag over Chkalovske, another town reclaimed in the counteroffensive.

    Yuriy Kochevenko, of the 95th brigade of the Armed Forces of Ukraine, tweeted a video from what appeared to be the city center of Izyum. The city was considered an important command and supply hub for Russia’s northern front.

    “Everything around is destroyed, but we will restore everything. Izyum was, is, and will be Ukraine,” Kochevenko said in his video, showing the empty central square and destroyed buildings.

    While most attention was focused on the counteroffensive, Ukraine's nuclear energy operator said the Zaporizhzhia nuclear power plant, Europe’s largest, was reconnected to Ukraine’s electricity grid, allowing engineers to shut down its last operational reactor to safeguard the plant amid the fighting.

    The plant, one of the 10 biggest atomic power stations in the world, has been occupied by Russian forces since the early days of the war. Ukraine and Russia have traded blame for shelling around it.

    Since a Sept. 5 fire caused by shelling knocked the plant off transmission lines, the reactor was powering crucial safety equipment in so-called “island mode” — an unreliable regime that left the plant increasingly vulnerable to a potential nuclear accident.

    The International Atomic Energy Agency, the U.N. nuclear watchdog that has two experts at the plant, welcomed the restoration of external power. But the agency's director-general, Rafael Grossi, said he remains “gravely concerned about the situation at the plant, which remains in danger as long as any shelling continues.”

    He said talks have begun on establishing a safety and security zone around the plant.

    In a call Sunday with Russian President Vladimir Putin, French President Emmanuel Macron urged the withdrawal of Russian troops and weaponry from the plant in line with IAEA recommendations.

    In fighting, Ukraine's military chief, Gen. Valerii Zaluzhnyy, said its forces had recaptured about 3,000 square kilometers (1,160 square miles) since the counteroffensive began in early September. He said Ukrainian troops are only 50 kilometers (about 30 miles) from the Russian border.

    Kharkiv Gov. Oleh Syniehubov said Ukrainian troops have reclaimed control of more than 40 settlements in the region, noting he couldn't give a precise number because the operation is still unfolding.

    Widespread power outages were reported Sunday night by Ukrainian media, including in the regions of Kharkiv, Poltava, Donetsk, Zaporizhzhia and Sumy. Officials in various regions said Russian forces had caused the outages by attacking infrastructure, knocking out electricity and water, with explosions preceding the outages.

    Kharkiv Mayor Igor Terekhov called the power outage “revenge by the Russian aggressor for the successes of our army at the front, in particular, in the Kharkiv region.”

    Local officials said they were trying to repair the damage, and none of the outages were believed to be related to the shutdown of the reactors at the Zaporizhzhia plant.

    Defense Minister Anna Malyar said Ukrainian forces are firing shells containing propaganda into areas where they seek to advance.

    ”One of the ways of informational work with the enemy in areas where there is no Internet is launching propaganda shells," she wrote on Facebook. "Before moving forward, our defenders say hello to the Russian invaders and give them the last opportunity to surrender. Otherwise, only death awaits them on Ukrainian soil.”

    The Ukrainian General Staff said Russian forces had also left several settlements in the Kherson region as Ukrainian forces pressed the counteroffensive. It did not identify the towns.

    An official with the Russian-backed administration in the city of Kherson, Kirill Stremousov, said on social media that the city was safe and asked everyone to stay calm.

    The Russian pullback marked the biggest battlefield success for Ukrainian forces since they thwarted a Russian attempt to seize the capital, Kyiv, near the start of the war. The Kharkiv campaign came as a surprise for Moscow, which had relocated many of its troops from the region to the south in expectation of a counteroffensive there.

    In an awkward attempt to save face, the Russian Defense Ministry said Saturday the troops' withdrawal from Izyum and other areas was intended to strengthen Moscow's forces in the neighboring Donetsk region to the south. The explanation sounded similar how Russia justified its pulling back from Kyiv earlier this year.

    Igor Strelkov, who led Russia-backed forces when the separatist conflict in the Donbas erupted in 2014, mocked the Russian Defense Ministry's explanation of the retreat, suggesting that handing over Russia's own territory near the border was a “contribution to a Ukrainian settlement.”

    The retreat drew an angry response from Russian military bloggers and nationalist commentators, who bemoaned it as a major defeat and urged the Kremlin to step up its war efforts. Many criticized Russian authorities for continuing with fireworks and other lavish festivities in Moscow that marked a city holiday on Saturday despite the debacle in Ukraine.

    Putin attended the opening of a huge Ferris wheel in a Moscow park on Saturday, and inaugurated a new transport link and a sports arena. The action underlined the Kremlin's narrative that the war it calls a “special military operation" was going according to plan without affecting Russians' everyday lives.

    Pro-Kremlin political analyst Sergei Markov criticized the Moscow festivities as a grave mistake.

    “The fireworks in Moscow on a tragic day of Russia’s military defeat will have extremely serious political consequences,” Markov wrote on his messaging app channel. “Authorities mustn’t celebrate when people are mourning.”

    In a sign of a potential rift in the Russian leadership, Ramzan Kadyrov, the Kremlin-backed head of Chechnya, said the retreat resulted from blunders by the Russian brass.

    “They have made mistakes and I think they will draw the necessary conclusions,” Kadyrov said. “If they don’t make changes in the strategy of conducting the special military operation in the next day or two, I will be forced to contact the leadership of the Defense Ministry and the leadership of the country to explain the real situation on the ground."

    Despite Ukraine’s gains, U.S. Secretary of State Antony Blinken and the head of NATO warned Friday the war would likely drag on for months, urging the West to keep supporting Ukraine through what could be a difficult winter.

    Sen. Tim Kaine, a Virginia Democrat and member of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, called Ukrainian advances very encouraging.

    “I’m proud that the U.S. and our allies have locked arms to support the Ukrainian people in this fight,” Kaine said in a statement to The Associated Press. “We and our allies must keep standing with Ukraine. Putin needs to recognize that the only way out is to end his failed war.”

    —-

    Associated Press writer Ellen Knickmeyer in Washington contributed.

    ___

    Follow the AP’s coverage of the war at https://apnews.com/hub/russia-ukraine


    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • mrussel1
    mrussel1 Posts: 30,879
    Slava Ukraini!  
  • HughFreakingDillon
    HughFreakingDillon Winnipeg Posts: 39,473
    at what point do Russian troops get so demoralized that they just stop fighting?
    By The Time They Figure Out What Went Wrong, We'll Be Sitting On A Beach, Earning Twenty Percent.




  • gimmesometruth27
    gimmesometruth27 St. Fuckin Louis Posts: 24,055
    at what point do Russian troops get so demoralized that they just stop fighting?
    if putin is anything at all like stalin, the retreating soldiers will either be forced to fight the ukranians, or will be shot by their own troops upon retreat.
    "You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry."  - Lincoln

    "Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
  • mrussel1
    mrussel1 Posts: 30,879
    at what point do Russian troops get so demoralized that they just stop fighting?
    if putin is anything at all like stalin, the retreating soldiers will either be forced to fight the ukranians, or will be shot by their own troops upon retreat.
    Because deposing or "unconditional surrender" isn't a strategic objective here, I think the West still needs to give Putin an off ramp to save a little face.  I'm not sure what that is, but if it can be achieved before winter, Russia loses what little advantage they have remaining.  And that little advantage is heating oil for the European winter.  
  • mickeyrat
    mickeyrat Posts: 44,385
    mrussel1 said:
    at what point do Russian troops get so demoralized that they just stop fighting?
    if putin is anything at all like stalin, the retreating soldiers will either be forced to fight the ukranians, or will be shot by their own troops upon retreat.
    Because deposing or "unconditional surrender" isn't a strategic objective here, I think the West still needs to give Putin an off ramp to save a little face.  I'm not sure what that is, but if it can be achieved before winter, Russia loses what little advantage they have remaining.  And that little advantage is heating oil for the European winter.  

    could be considered an act of war against nato countries using that.
    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • mrussel1
    mrussel1 Posts: 30,879
    mickeyrat said:
    mrussel1 said:
    at what point do Russian troops get so demoralized that they just stop fighting?
    if putin is anything at all like stalin, the retreating soldiers will either be forced to fight the ukranians, or will be shot by their own troops upon retreat.
    Because deposing or "unconditional surrender" isn't a strategic objective here, I think the West still needs to give Putin an off ramp to save a little face.  I'm not sure what that is, but if it can be achieved before winter, Russia loses what little advantage they have remaining.  And that little advantage is heating oil for the European winter.  

    could be considered an act of war against nato countries using that.
    I suppose, but there isn't going to be shooting over that.  It would be an expensive winter and Putin would be gambling that the Euro countries will lose stomach for financing the Ukrainians.  
  • static111
    static111 Posts: 5,074
    at what point do Russian troops get so demoralized that they just stop fighting?
    Hopefully soon

    mickeyrat said:
    mrussel1 said:
    at what point do Russian troops get so demoralized that they just stop fighting?
    if putin is anything at all like stalin, the retreating soldiers will either be forced to fight the ukranians, or will be shot by their own troops upon retreat.
    Because deposing or "unconditional surrender" isn't a strategic objective here, I think the West still needs to give Putin an off ramp to save a little face.  I'm not sure what that is, but if it can be achieved before winter, Russia loses what little advantage they have remaining.  And that little advantage is heating oil for the European winter.  

    could be considered an act of war against nato countries using that.
    Conversely wouldn't Nato sanctions against Russia be considered an act of war?

    I agree with Mrussel, there needs to be some type of face saving off ramp for Putin that makes both Putin and the Ukrainians happy, otherwise I really don't see an end to the fighting. Both sides seem pretty dug into their positions and viewpoints.  
    Scio me nihil scire

    There are no kings inside the gates of eden
  • mickeyrat
    mickeyrat Posts: 44,385
     

    As Ukraine pursues counteroffensive, Russia strikes Kharkiv
    By ELENA BECATOROS
    12 mins ago

    KHARKIV, Ukraine (AP) — Among the boarded-up windows and blast-scarred buildings of Ukraine’s second-largest city, where Russian missiles and rockets strike during the day and the night, fear forms the backdrop of life.

    As Ukrainian forces advance in their counteroffensive in the Kharkiv region, pushing Russian forces out of territory they have held for months, strikes have continued unabated on the city, already hammered by artillery during months of war.

    A missile strike on a power station Sunday night sparked a major fire and plunged Kharkiv into darkness for hours. In the blackness, another missile slammed into a residential building at around midnight, collapsing part of it and killing one person, local officials said.

    “It’s dangerous to live in Kharkiv, every day is dangerous. It’s dangerous during the day and night,” said Kateryna Protsenko, a 29-year-old veterinarian living across the street from the apartment building.

    “The nights are sleepless, but anyway you continue to live because you have a family and you need to survive and work somehow,” she said, visibly shaken at the sight of the building, a gaping hole where part of the third story used to be.

    The building’s facade had peeled off and piles of rubble lay strewn on the ground, mixed with the twisted metal shrapnel of the missile. On the building’s second story, a closet stood suddenly exposed, a single coat hanger dangling precariously from its rail.

    Protsenko said she couldn’t leave Kharkiv — she needed to work, and there were still sick animals to treat.

    “So you live where you can live, and you understand that today you are alive but you can be gone in a minute," she said.

    More explosions sounded out in the middle of the day Monday, with a police administrative building set on fire by a strike that killed one person in a neighboring building.

    “Russia carried out a rocket attack against a peaceful city, where peaceful people live, just the same as the people living in the United States of America, or anywhere else in the world, who go to school, have their ordinary lives, raise their children,” Kharkiv regional police chief Volodymyr Timoshko said.

    Behind him, firefighting crews clambered up ladders with hoses, dousing the flames leaping out of the top story of the building as choking smoke billowed out over the city.

    Timoshko said authorities believed the building was hit by a rocket from a Smerch multiple rocket launcher.

    “It’s quite a powerful weapon which is used for mass destruction, I repeat, mass destruction of the population,” he said. “They are using it during the daytime in the city center, the city which is living a normal life.”

    ___

    Follow the AP’s coverage of the war at https://apnews.com/hub/russia-ukraine


    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • mickeyrat
    mickeyrat Posts: 44,385
    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14