Donald Trump

Cropduster-80 said:

Lerxst1992 said:

Cropduster-80 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

Cropduster-80 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

Pages 3, 4, 8 & 11 of the link are relevant. Notice the word "trustworthy." Brandon did not extend the time-honored courtesy of allowing POOTWH access to classified information, briefings or anything to do with TOP Secret information after he left the Oval on 1/20/21 because he had proven himself to be "untrustworthy."

https://www.cia.gov/library/readingroom/docs/CIA-RDP80B01495R000200090013-0.pdf

That sort of misses the nuance of this claim from the trump camp.

1. Trump could have declassified all his documents before leaving office through a process that isn’t defined 

2. Biden could have revoked trumps security clearance on day 1. Trump already declassified the documents he took making this moot for the purposes of these specific records.

3. hypothetically Biden could have reclassified them that same way, and trump may or may not have been told. maybe it was part of the discussion the DOJ has with the Trump camp and he could be in possession of (re) classified documents

all of this deals with presidents specifically.  There is an article on NBC about it too. 

 Apparently until someone updates the classification stamps no none else can touch them. Even if they are unclassified. That seems to put anyone other than a sitting president back into legal jeopardy if the stamp is above their security clearance 

it’s a mess 

1. Consider the source of the “claim.” A “claim “ does not make it so.

2. Did POOTWH declassify the documents in question and if so, what process did he use, if any?

3. Maybe that’s true but the Constitution clearly has language about swearing an oath, protecting the nation from enemies, foreign and domestic, and consequences for committing treason.

4. It’s a mess because it’s POOTWH. Regardless, if he declassified them, he stole them and he jeopardized our national security. 3 and the National Archives law, which POOTWH renewed with stiffer penalties, kick in for the law and order crowd and the Constitutional purists amongst us.

Point #2 specifically is what I’m talking about.  There isn’t a process.  Legal scholars generally agree.  A president can declassify on demand and don’t need to notify anyone.  That doesn’t mean anyone else can touch them though until a process to stamp them correctly happens 

4.  I totally agree he took them and that’s a crime 

even if he is charged, there is a lot to go through.  He’s got a solid claim on some of it, not because it’s right but because no one anticipated someone would do this. There isn’t a guardrail. Getting this done before 2024 may not happen.

because this has never happened there are several things that could go to the Supreme Court. It’s going to take a long time 

Some of these laws have no enforcement mechanism or penalty. IE the presidential records act.  So if you are accusing him of breaking one law but having to prosecute him under a more general mishandling of government documents law it gets really murky 

Regarding point two, can a president declassify top secret nuclear documents? It seems like there must be a check on that, or what would stop a former president on his last day declassify essential secrets for a bribe?

I posted some links up thread.  Apparently they can.  Having to ask permission implies the president is answerable to someone else.  In theory they can, it’s not been tested though 

I also think maybe the DOJ just wants the records back and that is where it ends.  The fact stuff like the presidential records act has no penalties for non compliance and having to prosecute  him for something else may be impossible to win 

the search and seizure may have been all there is.  Records returned, and they are done.  Probable cause a crime has been committed to justify a search warrant could be a presidential records act violation.  You can’t try that crime in court as there isn’t any penalty a jury can impose.

did he mishandle government documents or presidential documents? Because they were presidential documents and there is a law specific to those types of documents can you even try him for other government document laws? Government documents and presidential documents may be both similar or the same or different.   the laws seem to carve them out as separate.  I have no idea.  

PJNB said:

Cropduster-80 said:

Lerxst1992 said:

Cropduster-80 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

Cropduster-80 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

Pages 3, 4, 8 & 11 of the link are relevant. Notice the word "trustworthy." Brandon did not extend the time-honored courtesy of allowing POOTWH access to classified information, briefings or anything to do with TOP Secret information after he left the Oval on 1/20/21 because he had proven himself to be "untrustworthy."

https://www.cia.gov/library/readingroom/docs/CIA-RDP80B01495R000200090013-0.pdf

That sort of misses the nuance of this claim from the trump camp.

1. Trump could have declassified all his documents before leaving office through a process that isn’t defined 

2. Biden could have revoked trumps security clearance on day 1. Trump already declassified the documents he took making this moot for the purposes of these specific records.

3. hypothetically Biden could have reclassified them that same way, and trump may or may not have been told. maybe it was part of the discussion the DOJ has with the Trump camp and he could be in possession of (re) classified documents

all of this deals with presidents specifically.  There is an article on NBC about it too. 

 Apparently until someone updates the classification stamps no none else can touch them. Even if they are unclassified. That seems to put anyone other than a sitting president back into legal jeopardy if the stamp is above their security clearance 

it’s a mess 

1. Consider the source of the “claim.” A “claim “ does not make it so.

2. Did POOTWH declassify the documents in question and if so, what process did he use, if any?

3. Maybe that’s true but the Constitution clearly has language about swearing an oath, protecting the nation from enemies, foreign and domestic, and consequences for committing treason.

4. It’s a mess because it’s POOTWH. Regardless, if he declassified them, he stole them and he jeopardized our national security. 3 and the National Archives law, which POOTWH renewed with stiffer penalties, kick in for the law and order crowd and the Constitutional purists amongst us.

Point #2 specifically is what I’m talking about.  There isn’t a process.  Legal scholars generally agree.  A president can declassify on demand and don’t need to notify anyone.  That doesn’t mean anyone else can touch them though until a process to stamp them correctly happens 

4.  I totally agree he took them and that’s a crime 

even if he is charged, there is a lot to go through.  He’s got a solid claim on some of it, not because it’s right but because no one anticipated someone would do this. There isn’t a guardrail. Getting this done before 2024 may not happen.

because this has never happened there are several things that could go to the Supreme Court. It’s going to take a long time 

Some of these laws have no enforcement mechanism or penalty. IE the presidential records act.  So if you are accusing him of breaking one law but having to prosecute him under a more general mishandling of government documents law it gets really murky 

Regarding point two, can a president declassify top secret nuclear documents? It seems like there must be a check on that, or what would stop a former president on his last day declassify essential secrets for a bribe?

I posted some links up thread.  Apparently they can.  Having to ask permission implies the president is answerable to someone else.  In theory they can, it’s not been tested though 

I also think maybe the DOJ just wants the records back and that is where it ends.  The fact stuff like the presidential records act has no penalties for non compliance and having to prosecute  him for something else may be impossible to win 

the search and seizure may have been all there is.  Records returned, and they are done.  Probable cause a crime has been committed to justify a search warrant could be a presidential records act violation.  You can’t try that crime in court as there isn’t any penalty a jury can impose.

did he mishandle government documents or presidential documents? Because they were presidential documents and there is a law specific to those types of documents can you even try him for other government document laws? Government documents and presidential documents may be both similar or the same or different.   the laws seem to carve them out as separate.  I have no idea.  

https://www.msnbc.com/the-last-word/watch/why-trump-can-t-declassify-documents-about-nuclear-weapons-145999941911

PJNB said:

The point is though if there are ways around it plenty of people would have to be involved and the FBI would be aware of the declassification. 

They are looking for classified documents.

Cropduster-80 said:

PJNB said:

The point is though if there are ways around it plenty of people would have to be involved and the FBI would be aware of the declassification. 

They are looking for classified documents.

The point is his staff said in may he did declassify them before leaving office. There isn’t any paperwork needed according to many. That’s kind of the problem.  It all goes back to presidents not following historical suggestions of what they should do and processes they should follow. You can call them classified or unclassified and it doesn’t matter. That’s up to the Supreme Court as to if they are or aren’t as it goes to authority/process to declassify 

They are looking for documents that belong to the national archives for sure. Either way, they are theirs  

as big of a POS trump is, If I was betting my money goes on no conviction and probably no charges filed as it’s not even clear to me what crime he committed that  both has a criminal enforcement component and will survive a Supreme Court challenge. You need not only a unanimous jury verdict but also 5 Supreme Court votes.

Cropduster-80 said:

PJNB said:

Cropduster-80 said:

PJNB said:

The point is though if there are ways around it plenty of people would have to be involved and the FBI would be aware of the declassification. 

They are looking for classified documents.

The point is his staff said in may he did declassify them before leaving office. There isn’t any paperwork needed according to many. That’s kind of the problem.  It all goes back to presidents not following historical suggestions of what they should do and processes they should follow. You can call them classified or unclassified and it doesn’t matter. That’s up to the Supreme Court as to if they are or aren’t as it goes to authority/process to declassify 

They are looking for documents that belong to the national archives for sure. Either way, they are theirs  

as big of a POS trump is, If I was betting my money goes on no conviction and probably no charges filed as it’s not even clear to me what crime he committed that  both has a criminal enforcement component and will survive a Supreme Court challenge. You need not only a unanimous jury verdict but also 5 Supreme Court votes.

The Atomic Energy Acts say he can not declassify though. It is very clear. 

Has it been challenged? Not that I’m aware of 

a law is meaningless if a challenge to the presidential authority to declassify is brought. It’s an unconstitutional law in that case. It’s the legislative branch taking power from the executive branch. National security is primarily a function of the executive 

Unitary executive theory rooted in the constitution says the president can, as he controls the entire executive branch.  

It’s a legal theory many support including several on the supreme court 

we are way too caught up in laws while ignoring the fact congress can pass a law that makes observing taco Tuesday mandatory.  Doesn’t mean it won’t get tossed at the Supreme Court.  It could be a law though 

Merkin Baller said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

Cropduster-80 said:

PJNB said:

Cropduster-80 said:

PJNB said:

The point is though if there are ways around it plenty of people would have to be involved and the FBI would be aware of the declassification. 

They are looking for classified documents.

The point is his staff said in may he did declassify them before leaving office. There isn’t any paperwork needed according to many. That’s kind of the problem.  It all goes back to presidents not following historical suggestions of what they should do and processes they should follow. You can call them classified or unclassified and it doesn’t matter. That’s up to the Supreme Court as to if they are or aren’t as it goes to authority/process to declassify 

They are looking for documents that belong to the national archives for sure. Either way, they are theirs  

as big of a POS trump is, If I was betting my money goes on no conviction and probably no charges filed as it’s not even clear to me what crime he committed that  both has a criminal enforcement component and will survive a Supreme Court challenge. You need not only a unanimous jury verdict but also 5 Supreme Court votes.

The Atomic Energy Acts say he can not declassify though. It is very clear. 

Has it been challenged? Not that I’m aware of 

a law is meaningless if a challenge to the presidential authority to declassify is brought. It’s an unconstitutional law in that case. It’s the legislative branch taking power from the executive branch. National security is primarily a function of the executive 

Unitary executive theory rooted in the constitution says the president can, as he controls the entire executive branch.  

It’s a legal theory many support including several on the supreme court 

we are way too caught up in laws while ignoring the fact congress can pass a law that makes observing taco Tuesday mandatory.  Doesn’t mean it won’t get tossed at the Supreme Court.  It could be a law though 

We're, general we, are too caught up in giving POOTWH a pass with the "what if's," "maybes," "its never been challenged," etc., etc., etc. Hold the POS accountable and make him defend himself or sue or go to court to get what he believes is rightfully his. Stand up to the fucking guy and when he wins and the US becomes a fascist state with a string of authoritarians at the helm, we'll, well, some of us, will know who to blame and how we got where we are. Otherwise, we, general we, might as well just roll the fuck over. Let Clearance Thomas and Brett Kavanaught destroy democracy.

You don't think letting him do whatever the fuck he wants out of fear for how his base might react isn't a good strategy? 

Cropduster-80 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

Cropduster-80 said:

PJNB said:

Cropduster-80 said:

PJNB said:

The point is though if there are ways around it plenty of people would have to be involved and the FBI would be aware of the declassification. 

They are looking for classified documents.

The point is his staff said in may he did declassify them before leaving office. There isn’t any paperwork needed according to many. That’s kind of the problem.  It all goes back to presidents not following historical suggestions of what they should do and processes they should follow. You can call them classified or unclassified and it doesn’t matter. That’s up to the Supreme Court as to if they are or aren’t as it goes to authority/process to declassify 

They are looking for documents that belong to the national archives for sure. Either way, they are theirs  

as big of a POS trump is, If I was betting my money goes on no conviction and probably no charges filed as it’s not even clear to me what crime he committed that  both has a criminal enforcement component and will survive a Supreme Court challenge. You need not only a unanimous jury verdict but also 5 Supreme Court votes.

The Atomic Energy Acts say he can not declassify though. It is very clear. 

Has it been challenged? Not that I’m aware of 

a law is meaningless if a challenge to the presidential authority to declassify is brought. It’s an unconstitutional law in that case. It’s the legislative branch taking power from the executive branch. National security is primarily a function of the executive 

Unitary executive theory rooted in the constitution says the president can, as he controls the entire executive branch.  

It’s a legal theory many support including several on the supreme court 

we are way too caught up in laws while ignoring the fact congress can pass a law that makes observing taco Tuesday mandatory.  Doesn’t mean it won’t get tossed at the Supreme Court.  It could be a law though 

We're, general we, are too caught up in giving POOTWH a pass with the "what if's," "maybes," "its never been challenged," etc., etc., etc. Hold the POS accountable and make him defend himself or sue or go to court to get what he believes is rightfully his. Stand up to the fucking guy and when he wins and the US becomes a fascist state with a string of authoritarians at the helm, we'll, well, some of us, will know who to blame and how we got where we are. Otherwise, we, general we, might as well just roll the fuck over. Let Clearance Thomas and Brett Kavanaught destroy democracy.

It’s not a what if.

the standard shouldn’t be the atomic energy act,  it should be can the constraints the atomic energy act puts on a sitting president pass a Supreme Court challenge.  It’s clearly a separation of powers issue 

that’s exactly where it’s going if you bring that case 

you cannot point to a law and then not ask where using that law will end up 

if they feel they can win at the supreme court, great. I’m not sure the do or can though 

Halifax2TheMax said:

Cropduster-80 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

Cropduster-80 said:

PJNB said:

Cropduster-80 said:

PJNB said:

The point is though if there are ways around it plenty of people would have to be involved and the FBI would be aware of the declassification. 

They are looking for classified documents.

The point is his staff said in may he did declassify them before leaving office. There isn’t any paperwork needed according to many. That’s kind of the problem.  It all goes back to presidents not following historical suggestions of what they should do and processes they should follow. You can call them classified or unclassified and it doesn’t matter. That’s up to the Supreme Court as to if they are or aren’t as it goes to authority/process to declassify 

They are looking for documents that belong to the national archives for sure. Either way, they are theirs  

as big of a POS trump is, If I was betting my money goes on no conviction and probably no charges filed as it’s not even clear to me what crime he committed that  both has a criminal enforcement component and will survive a Supreme Court challenge. You need not only a unanimous jury verdict but also 5 Supreme Court votes.

The Atomic Energy Acts say he can not declassify though. It is very clear. 

Has it been challenged? Not that I’m aware of 

a law is meaningless if a challenge to the presidential authority to declassify is brought. It’s an unconstitutional law in that case. It’s the legislative branch taking power from the executive branch. National security is primarily a function of the executive 

Unitary executive theory rooted in the constitution says the president can, as he controls the entire executive branch.  

It’s a legal theory many support including several on the supreme court 

we are way too caught up in laws while ignoring the fact congress can pass a law that makes observing taco Tuesday mandatory.  Doesn’t mean it won’t get tossed at the Supreme Court.  It could be a law though 

We're, general we, are too caught up in giving POOTWH a pass with the "what if's," "maybes," "its never been challenged," etc., etc., etc. Hold the POS accountable and make him defend himself or sue or go to court to get what he believes is rightfully his. Stand up to the fucking guy and when he wins and the US becomes a fascist state with a string of authoritarians at the helm, we'll, well, some of us, will know who to blame and how we got where we are. Otherwise, we, general we, might as well just roll the fuck over. Let Clearance Thomas and Brett Kavanaught destroy democracy.

It’s not a what if.

the standard shouldn’t be the atomic energy act,  it should be can the constraints the atomic energy act puts on a sitting president pass a Supreme Court challenge.  It’s clearly a separation of powers issue 

that’s exactly where it’s going if you bring that case 

you cannot point to a law and then not ask where using that law will end up 

if they feel they can win at the supreme court, great. I’m not sure the do or can though 

It’s a “what if,” until it’s decided by SCOTUS. Doing nothing is not an option. There is history and protocol, as well as past practice by all previous administrations since the birth of the bomb. Let the constitutional purists own it. Like the Founders envisioned nuclear weapons but okay. Let them be responsible for the ensuing shit show to follow if 87 years of precedence gets tossed aside because POOTWH decides to break another norm.

Cropduster-80 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

Cropduster-80 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

Cropduster-80 said:

PJNB said:

Cropduster-80 said:

PJNB said:

The point is though if there are ways around it plenty of people would have to be involved and the FBI would be aware of the declassification. 

They are looking for classified documents.

The point is his staff said in may he did declassify them before leaving office. There isn’t any paperwork needed according to many. That’s kind of the problem.  It all goes back to presidents not following historical suggestions of what they should do and processes they should follow. You can call them classified or unclassified and it doesn’t matter. That’s up to the Supreme Court as to if they are or aren’t as it goes to authority/process to declassify 

They are looking for documents that belong to the national archives for sure. Either way, they are theirs  

as big of a POS trump is, If I was betting my money goes on no conviction and probably no charges filed as it’s not even clear to me what crime he committed that  both has a criminal enforcement component and will survive a Supreme Court challenge. You need not only a unanimous jury verdict but also 5 Supreme Court votes.

The Atomic Energy Acts say he can not declassify though. It is very clear. 

Has it been challenged? Not that I’m aware of 

a law is meaningless if a challenge to the presidential authority to declassify is brought. It’s an unconstitutional law in that case. It’s the legislative branch taking power from the executive branch. National security is primarily a function of the executive 

Unitary executive theory rooted in the constitution says the president can, as he controls the entire executive branch.  

It’s a legal theory many support including several on the supreme court 

we are way too caught up in laws while ignoring the fact congress can pass a law that makes observing taco Tuesday mandatory.  Doesn’t mean it won’t get tossed at the Supreme Court.  It could be a law though 

We're, general we, are too caught up in giving POOTWH a pass with the "what if's," "maybes," "its never been challenged," etc., etc., etc. Hold the POS accountable and make him defend himself or sue or go to court to get what he believes is rightfully his. Stand up to the fucking guy and when he wins and the US becomes a fascist state with a string of authoritarians at the helm, we'll, well, some of us, will know who to blame and how we got where we are. Otherwise, we, general we, might as well just roll the fuck over. Let Clearance Thomas and Brett Kavanaught destroy democracy.

It’s not a what if.

the standard shouldn’t be the atomic energy act,  it should be can the constraints the atomic energy act puts on a sitting president pass a Supreme Court challenge.  It’s clearly a separation of powers issue 

that’s exactly where it’s going if you bring that case 

you cannot point to a law and then not ask where using that law will end up 

if they feel they can win at the supreme court, great. I’m not sure the do or can though 

It’s a “what if,” until it’s decided by SCOTUS. Doing nothing is not an option. There is history and protocol, as well as past practice by all previous administrations since the birth of the bomb. Let the constitutional purists own it. Like the Founders envisioned nuclear weapons but okay. Let them be responsible for the ensuing shit show to follow if 87 years of precedence gets tossed aside because POOTWH decides to break another norm.

All I’ve been saying since the beginning is they got the documents back.

 In whatever legal/political calculation they are now making getting the documents may have been enough.  None of the possible roads lead to a good outcome.  You are choosing between multiple terrible options all of which will have negative long term consequences 

it’s entirely possible and more than a bit likely it ends here 

to me all this “it’s a slam dunk case” stuff is far more speculative and “what if” because it puts it in a neat little box and skips over the profound and complex constitutional concerns that are real