mrussel1 said:

Cropduster-80 said:

mrussel1 said:

Cropduster-80 said:

mrussel1 said:

Cropduster-80 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

mrussel1 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

TOP SECRET material found at Mar-I-Lieo, per FBI. Violation of law, federal offense. POOTWH will be charged, me thinks.

Where did you see this and what is the comment about 3PM as high noon?

NPR interview with Weissman explaining that the judge has given POOTWH until 3:00 p.m. tomorrow to respond to the DOJ request. STFU or release the warrant and the inventory of what they were looking for.

MSNBC just reported that TOP SECRET material had been found at Mar-I-Lieo. Didn’t differentiate whether it was from the 15 boxes previously returned or the 12 taken Monday. Regardless, we know there’s a 3 page inventory of classified material taken from the 15 boxes previously returned.

Theres no way those 12 boxes taken on Monday contained classified material or TOP SECRET material. No way. Boxes of Dr. Seuss books. The out of print ones.

classified materiel is going to be contested so it’s not a smoking gun as trump can just say he de classified them. The nature of the documents probably doesn’t matter. 
“former Trump National Security Council member Kash Patel has claimed Trump did just that before leaving office. There is no set procedure for presidential declassification, meaning that could be the basis for a defense if a case proceeds against Trump.”

I cannot believe for a second that there is not a formal procedure for declassification.  That makes no sense.  Where is this coming from?

Bloomberg 

there is a procedure at a department level, as in the CIA declassification of something.  Presidents  can declassify whatever they want, with no process.  Apparently 

it makes sense in the context of executive authority.  If the president wants to share battle field intelligence with the british at a meeting he has that right.  Having to ask permission or having to get a sign off means a president is answerable to someone else. 

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-08-09/what-to-know-about-presidential-records-and-the-law-quicktake

and here 

https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2017/may/16/james-risch/does-president-have-ability-declassify-anything-an/

If he is claiming he declassified them,  then why wasn't that raised as a defense to the original subpoena? Surely the process must include notifying the National Records.  Also,  even if declassified,  that doesn't give him the right to remove them.  I think that would still be a violation of the act. 

All this is speculative. Garland strikes me as very deliberative.  So if it got through Wray and Garland,  it must be something material and not really open to interpretation.  And if the mole theory is true,  same for that person.   It must be something not in the gray area.  I would be shocked by that level of misreading. 

All I’m saying is there is other violations here. I don’t think top secret matters. Doesn’t mean mishandling of documents, not complying with a records request etc aren’t crimes.  

Patel did raise that point that trump declassified them. I’m not sure when though.

Without a process though, he didn’t need to disclose that.  It’s all very convoluted. 

I just wouldn’t get too caught up on “top secret”.  Classified or not they belong to the national archives 

100%.  

However biden could have reclassified them using the same non process, process and didn’t have to tell trump.  So he could be sitting on piles of classified documents 

yet again this shows our system only works when people follow norms. Trump exposed this like no other. We aren’t set up to deal with any of this when someone decides they are going to do whatever they want. 

Cropduster-80 said:

mrussel1 said:

Cropduster-80 said:

mrussel1 said:

Cropduster-80 said:

mrussel1 said:

Cropduster-80 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

mrussel1 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

TOP SECRET material found at Mar-I-Lieo, per FBI. Violation of law, federal offense. POOTWH will be charged, me thinks.

Where did you see this and what is the comment about 3PM as high noon?

NPR interview with Weissman explaining that the judge has given POOTWH until 3:00 p.m. tomorrow to respond to the DOJ request. STFU or release the warrant and the inventory of what they were looking for.

MSNBC just reported that TOP SECRET material had been found at Mar-I-Lieo. Didn’t differentiate whether it was from the 15 boxes previously returned or the 12 taken Monday. Regardless, we know there’s a 3 page inventory of classified material taken from the 15 boxes previously returned.

Theres no way those 12 boxes taken on Monday contained classified material or TOP SECRET material. No way. Boxes of Dr. Seuss books. The out of print ones.

classified materiel is going to be contested so it’s not a smoking gun as trump can just say he de classified them. The nature of the documents probably doesn’t matter. 
“former Trump National Security Council member Kash Patel has claimed Trump did just that before leaving office. There is no set procedure for presidential declassification, meaning that could be the basis for a defense if a case proceeds against Trump.”

I cannot believe for a second that there is not a formal procedure for declassification.  That makes no sense.  Where is this coming from?

Bloomberg 

there is a procedure at a department level, as in the CIA declassification of something.  Presidents  can declassify whatever they want, with no process.  Apparently 

it makes sense in the context of executive authority.  If the president wants to share battle field intelligence with the british at a meeting he has that right.  Having to ask permission or having to get a sign off means a president is answerable to someone else. 

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-08-09/what-to-know-about-presidential-records-and-the-law-quicktake

and here 

https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2017/may/16/james-risch/does-president-have-ability-declassify-anything-an/

If he is claiming he declassified them,  then why wasn't that raised as a defense to the original subpoena? Surely the process must include notifying the National Records.  Also,  even if declassified,  that doesn't give him the right to remove them.  I think that would still be a violation of the act. 

All this is speculative. Garland strikes me as very deliberative.  So if it got through Wray and Garland,  it must be something material and not really open to interpretation.  And if the mole theory is true,  same for that person.   It must be something not in the gray area.  I would be shocked by that level of misreading. 

All I’m saying is there is other violations here. I don’t think top secret matters. Doesn’t mean mishandling of documents, not complying with a records request etc aren’t crimes.  

Patel did raise that point that trump declassified them. I’m not sure when though.

Without a process though, he didn’t need to disclose that.  It’s all very convoluted. 

I just wouldn’t get too caught up on “top secret”.  Classified or not they belong to the national archives 

100%.  

However biden could have reclassified them using the same non process, process and didn’t have to tell trump.  So he could be sitting on piles of classified documents 

yet again this shows our system only works when people follow norms. Trump exposed this like no other. We aren’t set up to deal with any of this when someone decides they are going to do whatever they want. 

But there is a process. See above and below.

Cropduster-80 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

Pages 3, 4, 8 & 11 of the link are relevant. Notice the word "trustworthy." Brandon did not extend the time-honored courtesy of allowing POOTWH access to classified information, briefings or anything to do with TOP Secret information after he left the Oval on 1/20/21 because he had proven himself to be "untrustworthy."

https://www.cia.gov/library/readingroom/docs/CIA-RDP80B01495R000200090013-0.pdf

That sort of misses the nuance of this claim from the trump camp.


1. Trump could have declassified all his documents before leaving office through a process that isn’t defined 

2. Biden could have revoked trumps security clearance on day 1. Trump already declassified the documents he took making this moot for the purposes of these specific records.

3. hypothetically Biden could have reclassified them that same way, and trump may or may not have been told. maybe it was part of the discussion the DOJ has with the Trump camp and he could be in possession of (re) classified documents

all of this deals with presidents specifically.  There is an article on NBC about it too. 

 Apparently until someone updates the classification stamps no none else can touch them. Even if they are unclassified. That seems to put anyone other than a sitting president back into legal jeopardy if the stamp is above their security clearance 

it’s a mess 

1. Consider the source of the “claim.” A “claim “ does not make it so.

2. Did POOTWH declassify the documents in question and if so, what process did he use, if any?

3. Maybe that’s true but the Constitution clearly has language about swearing an oath, protecting the nation from enemies, foreign and domestic, and consequences for committing treason.

4. It’s a mess because it’s POOTWH. Regardless, if he declassified them, he stole them and he jeopardized our national security. 3 and the National Archives law, which POOTWH renewed with stiffer penalties, kick in for the law and order crowd and the Constitutional purists amongst us.

If the repubs are saying that none of this applies to POOTWH, none of this, then we really are fucked as a nation. Its fucking madness that they want to do Steve Bannon's bidding and tear this nation down and turn it into a fascist state. If this is true, that none of the below or in the link applies to a POTUS, then we don't have a POTUS, we have a King.

Executive Order 13526 of December 29, 2009

Classified National Security Information

This order prescribes a uniform system for classifying, safeguarding, and declassifying national security information, including information relating to defense against transnational terrorism. Our democratic principles require that the American people be informed of the activities of their Government. Also, our Nation’s progress depends on the free flow of information both within the Government and to the American people. Nevertheless, throughout our history, the national defense has required that certain information be maintained in confidence in order to protect our citizens, our democratic institutions, our homeland security, and our interactions with foreign nations. Protecting information critical to our Nation’s security and demonstrating our commitment to open Government through accurate and accountable application of classification standards and routine, secure, and effective declassification are equally important priorities.

 NOW, THEREFORE, I, BARACK OBAMA, by the authority vested in me as President by the Constitution and the laws of the United States of America, it is hereby ordered as follows:

PART 1—ORIGINAL CLASSIFICATION Section 1.1. Classification Standards. (a) Information may be originally classified under the terms of this order only if all of the following conditions are met:

(1) an original classification authority is classifying the information; (2) the information is owned by, produced by or for, or is under the control of the United States Government; (3) the information falls within one or more of the categories of information listed in section 1.4 of this order; and (4) the original classification authority determines that the unauthorized disclosure of the information reasonably could be expected to result in damage to the national security, which includes defense against transnational terrorism, and the original classification authority is able to identify or describe the damage.

(b) If there is significant doubt about the need to classify information, it shall not be classified.

This provision does not: (1) amplify or modify the substantive criteria or procedures for classification; or (2) create any substantive or procedural rights subject to judicial review. (c) Classified information shall not be declassified automatically as a result of any unauthorized disclosure of identical or similar information. (d) The unauthorized disclosure of foreign government information is presumed to cause damage to the national security.

Sec. 1.2. Classification Levels. (a) Information may be classified at one of the following three levels: (1) ‘‘Top Secret’’ shall be applied to information, the unauthorized disclosure of which reasonably could be expected to cause exceptionally grave damage to the national security that the original classification authority is able to identify or describe. (2) ‘‘Secret’’ shall be applied to information, the unauthorized disclosure of which reasonably could be expected to cause serious damage to the national security that the original classification authority is able to identify or describe. (3) ‘‘Confidential’’ shall be applied to information, the unauthorized disclosure of which reasonably could be expected to cause damage to the national security that the original classification authority is able to identify or describe. (b) Except as otherwise provided by statute, no other terms shall be used to identify United States classified information. (c) If there is significant doubt about the appropriate level of classification, it shall be classified at the lower level.

Sec. 1.3. Classification Authority. (a) The authority to classify information originally may be exercised only by: (1) the President and the Vice President; (2) agency heads and officials designated by the President; and (3) United States Government officials delegated this authority pursuant to paragraph (c) of this section. (b) Officials authorized to classify information at a specified level are also authorized to classify information at a lower level. (c) Delegation of original classification authority.

(1) Delegations of original classification authority shall be limited to the minimum required to administer this order. Agency heads are responsible for ensuring that designated subordinate officials have a demonstrable and continuing need to exercise this authority.

(2) ‘‘Top Secret’’ original classification authority may be delegated only by the President, the Vice President, or an agency head or official designated pursuant to paragraph (a)(2) of this section.

(3) ‘‘Secret’’ or ‘‘Confidential’’ original classification authority may be delegated only by the President, the Vice President, an agency head or official designated pursuant to paragraph (a)(2) of this section, or the senior agency official designated under section 5.4(d) of this order, provided that official has been delegated ‘‘Top Secret’’ original classification authority by the agency head.

(4) Each delegation of original classification authority shall be in writing and the authority shall not be redelegated except as provided in this order. Each delegation shall identify the official by name or position.

(5) Delegations of original classification authority shall be reported or made available by name or position to the Director of the Information Security Oversight Office. (d) All original classification authorities must receive training in proper classification (including the avoidance of over-classification) and declassification as provided in this order and its implementing directives at least once a calendar year. Such training must include instruction on the proper safeguarding of classified information and on the sanctions in section 5.5 of this order that may be brought against an individual who fails to classify information properly or protect classified information from unauthorized disclosure. Original classification authorities who do not receive such mandatory training at least once within a calendar year shall have their classification authority suspended by the agency head or the senior agency official designated under section 5.4(d) of this order until such training has taken place. A waiver may be granted by the agency head, the deputy agency head, or the senior agency official if an individual is unable to receive such training due to unavoidable circumstances. Whenever a waiver is granted, the individual shall receive such training as soon as practicable.

Sec. 1.4. Classification Categories. Information shall not be considered for classification unless its unauthorized disclosure could reasonably be expected to cause identifiable or describable damage to the national security in accordance with section 1.2 of this order, and it pertains to one or more of the following: (a) military plans, weapons systems, or operations; (b) foreign government information; (c) intelligence activities (including covert action), intelligence sources or methods, or cryptology; (d) foreign relations or foreign activities of the United States, including confidential sources; (e) scientific, technological, or economic matters relating to the national security; (f) United States Government programs for safeguarding nuclear materials or facilities; (g) vulnerabilities or capabilities of systems, installations, infrastructures, projects, plans, or protection services relating to the national security; or (h) the development, production, or use of weapons of mass destruction.

Sec. 1.5. Duration of Classification. (a) At the time of original classification, the original classification authority shall establish a specific date or event for declassification based on the duration of the national security sensitivity of the information. Upon reaching the date or event, the information shall be automatically declassified. Except for information that should clearly and demonstrably be expected to reveal the identity of a confidential human source or a human intelligence source or key design concepts of weapons of mass destruction, the date or event shall not exceed the time frame established in paragraph (b) of this section. (b) If the original classification authority cannot determine an earlier specific date or event for declassification, information shall be marked for declassification 10 years from the date of the original decision, unless the original classification authority otherwise determines that the sensitivity of the information requires that it be marked for declassification for up to 25 years from the date of the original decision. (c) An original classification authority may extend the duration of classification up to 25 years from the date of origin of the document, change the level of classification, or reclassify specific information only when the standards and procedures for classifying information under this order are followed. (d) No information may remain classified indefinitely. Information marked for an indefinite duration of classification under predecessor orders, for example, marked as ‘‘Originating Agency’s Determination Required,’’ or classified information that contains incomplete declassification instructions or lacks declassification instructions shall be declassified in accordance with part 3 of this order. 

From Page 718:

(b) Information originated by the incumbent President or the incumbent Vice President; the incumbent President’s White House Staff or the incumbent Vice President’s Staff; committees, commissions, or boards appointed by the incumbent President; or other entities within the Executive Office of the President that solely advise and assist the incumbent President is exempted from the provisions of paragraph (a) of this section. However, the Archivist shall have the authority to review, downgrade, and declassify papers or records of former Presidents and Vice Presidents under the control of the Archivist pursuant to 44 U.S.C. 2107, 2111, 2111 note, or 2203. Review procedures developed by the Archivist shall provide for consultation with agencies having primary subject matter interest and shall be consistent with the provisions of applicable laws or lawful agreements that pertain to the respective Presidential papers or records. Agencies with primary subject matter interest shall be notified promptly of the Archivist’s decision. Any final decision by the Archivist may be appealed by the requester or an agency to the Panel. The information shall remain classified pending a prompt decision on the appeal.

 Page 720:

PART 4—SAFEGUARDING Sec. 4.1. General Restrictions on Access. (a) A person may have access to classified information provided that:

 (1) a favorable determination of eligibility for access has been made by an agency head or the agency head’s designee; (2) the person has signed an approved nondisclosure agreement; and (3) the person has a need-to-know the information. (b) Every person who has met the standards for access to classified information in paragraph (a) of this section shall receive contemporaneous training on the proper safeguarding of classified information and on the criminal, civil, and administrative sanctions that may be imposed on an individual who fails to protect classified information from unauthorized disclosure. (c) An official or employee leaving agency service may not remove classified information from the agency’s control or direct that information be declassified in order to remove it from agency control. (d) Classified information may not be removed from official premises without proper authorization. (e) Persons authorized to disseminate classified information outside the executive branch shall ensure the protection of the information in a manner equivalent to that provided within the executive branch. (f) Consistent with law, executive orders, directives, and regulations, an agency head or senior agency official or, with respect to the Intelligence Community, the Director of National Intelligence, shall establish uniform procedures to ensure that automated information systems, including networks and telecommunications systems, that collect, create, communicate, compute, disseminate, process, or store classified information: (1) prevent access by unauthorized persons; (2) ensure the integrity of the information; and (3) to the maximum extent practicable, use.....................Continues




E9-31418.pdf (govinfo.gov)

Cropduster-80 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

Cropduster-80 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

Pages 3, 4, 8 & 11 of the link are relevant. Notice the word "trustworthy." Brandon did not extend the time-honored courtesy of allowing POOTWH access to classified information, briefings or anything to do with TOP Secret information after he left the Oval on 1/20/21 because he had proven himself to be "untrustworthy."

https://www.cia.gov/library/readingroom/docs/CIA-RDP80B01495R000200090013-0.pdf

That sort of misses the nuance of this claim from the trump camp.


1. Trump could have declassified all his documents before leaving office through a process that isn’t defined 

2. Biden could have revoked trumps security clearance on day 1. Trump already declassified the documents he took making this moot for the purposes of these specific records.

3. hypothetically Biden could have reclassified them that same way, and trump may or may not have been told. maybe it was part of the discussion the DOJ has with the Trump camp and he could be in possession of (re) classified documents

all of this deals with presidents specifically.  There is an article on NBC about it too. 

 Apparently until someone updates the classification stamps no none else can touch them. Even if they are unclassified. That seems to put anyone other than a sitting president back into legal jeopardy if the stamp is above their security clearance 

it’s a mess 

1. Consider the source of the “claim.” A “claim “ does not make it so.

2. Did POOTWH declassify the documents in question and if so, what process did he use, if any?

3. Maybe that’s true but the Constitution clearly has language about swearing an oath, protecting the nation from enemies, foreign and domestic, and consequences for committing treason.

4. It’s a mess because it’s POOTWH. Regardless, if he declassified them, he stole them and he jeopardized our national security. 3 and the National Archives law, which POOTWH renewed with stiffer penalties, kick in for the law and order crowd and the Constitutional purists amongst us.

Point #2 specifically is what I’m talking about.  There isn’t a process.  Legal scholars generally agree.  A president can declassify on demand and don’t need to notify anyone.  That doesn’t mean anyone else can touch them though until a process to stamp them correctly happens 

4.  I totally agree he took them and that’s a crime 

even if he is charged, there is a lot to go through.  He’s got a solid claim on some of it, not because it’s right but because no one anticipated someone would do this. There isn’t a guardrail. Getting this done before 2024 may not happen.

because this has never happened there are several things that could go to the Supreme Court. It’s going to take a long time 

Some of these laws have no enforcement mechanism or penalty. IE the presidential records act.  So if you are accusing him of breaking one law but having to prosecute him under a more general mishandling of government documents law it gets really murky 

This fucking guy shouldn't be anywhere near the WH. From the WaPo:

Sure, no quid pro quo. $2B investment fund guarantees $25M to Jared Dear Boy, despite performance. Jared Dear Boy had to amend his security clearance at least six times and Team POOTWH Treason eventually granted him his clearance, outside normal channels. And here we are, but oh, Hunter’s laptop, Hillary’s emails and Obama’s 33 million pages of documents (cleared and authorized to go to Chicago by the National Archives for his presidential library). From Letter From An American:

But what springs to mind for me is the plan pushed by Trump’s first national security advisor, Michael Flynn, Trump’s son-in-law Jared Kushner, and fundraiser and campaign advisor Tom Barrack, to transfer nuclear technology to Saudi Arabia. In 2019, whistleblowers from the National Security Council worried that their efforts might have broken the law and that the effort to make the transfer was ongoing. The plan was to enable Saudi leaders to build nuclear power plants, a plan that would have yielded billions of dollars to the investors but would have allowed Saudi Arabia to build nuclear weapons.

Gern Blansten said:

I'm curious if his attorney will try to block it....he might be putting up a front

or...he's calling for the release so that he can downplay what he did. His peeps will believe anything he says anyway.

And let's keep in mind that he could have revealed all of this on his own days ago

I assume the DOJ and the Court will require something more formal than a antisocial media declaration from fuckstick.