set list raters

share · September 2006

maybe you've been to 267 shows or so - who knows

but if you have it's a shame that you missed the point - which is performance

maybe they played your not-so-favourite song - but what, they didn't rock out? - they didn't sweep the crowd up into eddy of wow?

I highly doubt it

I love the band for what they do up there and how they do it

statisticians to the back of the room please

(or should I say STATUSticians)

||Release_Me|| · September 2006

lol, i agree. The setlist doesn't determine how good the show is. It's all about the band, how they perform the songs, how responsive the crowd is etc.

Sure, it's cool to get some rarities but it doesn't make a show GREAT. It makes it unique, but not necessarily brilliant.

forthebirdsbaby · September 2006

I have to agree too!! I'd be at every show if I could but its just not possible....its the atmosphere and the music and the band that makes the concert, not the setlist!! I'd be happy no matter what they played!!

casper leblanc · September 2006

share wrote:

maybe you've been to 267 shows or so - who knows

but if you have it's a shame that you missed the point - which is performance

+1

And if you caught your very first show in your life, like I did in Antwerp, any song played is a fuckin' magical moment.

analysis + live music = bad combination

Nakedeye66 · September 2006

All good points.

However, most people on the message board can only GO to local shows but wish to buy the audio of other shows. If someone won't or can't buy ever tour stop, the setlist is the first piece of info we have to narrow down which shows we might want to purchase.

I totally agree then when we are AT shows, the setlist is just one (sometimes small) piece of the puzzle. But to own a recording, how else can we differentiate between shows when there's no way for us to have the visuals or other "feel" that comes only from being there.

So while I agree that setlists sure aren't the be all-end all to evaluate the EXPERIENCE of the PJ show, setlists do matter when making a decision to purchase audio and, frankly, when we see very similar setlists night after night after night, it undercuts the very thing that sets PJ apart from other bands who DON'T mix it up. Yes, the bulk of the early European setlists are quite uninspiring. Of course we don't know what it's like to be there, but as someone who has hundreds of PJ recordings, I'm not looking for the same old AUDIO experience. Thus far, only Dublin and Marseilles catch my attention and make me say "whoa, now those look like something I haven't already heard hundreds of times". That doesn't mean the other shows aren't great shows, but stale setlists do indicate PJ is not doing one of the things that make them BETTER than other bands ... mixing it up, being unpredictable, and stamping some truth on the idea that no 2 PJ shows are the same. At least on audio during this part of the tour, lots of the PJ shows sound, dare I say ... THE SAME.

casper leblanc · September 2006

^ that is one thing...

getting all anal about the setlists is another.

JOEJOEJOE · September 2006

Rating a setlist in absentia = judging a book by it's cover

rating a setlist in absentia = looking at a picture of someone and judging how great/bad they would be in bed!

share · September 2006

Nakedeye66 wrote:

All good points.

However, most people on the message board can only GO to local shows but wish to buy the audio of other shows. If someone won't or can't buy ever tour stop, the setlist is the first piece of info we have to narrow down which shows we might want to purchase.

I totally agree then when we are AT shows, the setlist is just one (sometimes small) piece of the puzzle. But to own a recording, how else can we differentiate between shows when there's no way for us to have the visuals or other "feel" that comes only from being there.

So while I agree that setlists sure aren't the be all-end all to evaluate the EXPERIENCE of the PJ show, setlists do matter when making a decision to purchase audio and, frankly, when we see very similar setlists night after night after night, it undercuts the very thing that sets PJ apart from other bands who DON'T mix it up. Yes, the bulk of the early European setlists are quite uninspiring. Of course we don't know what it's like to be there, but as someone who has hundreds of PJ recordings, I'm not looking for the same old AUDIO experience. Thus far, only Dublin and Marseilles catch my attention and make me say "whoa, now those look like something I haven't already heard hundreds of times". That doesn't mean the other shows aren't great shows, but stale setlists do indicate PJ is not doing one of the things that make them BETTER than other bands ... mixing it up, being unpredictable, and stamping some truth on the idea that no 2 PJ shows are the same. At least on audio during this part of the tour, lots of the PJ shows sound, dare I say ... THE SAME.

but wouldn't said person only need to read the set list themselves to make the decision to buy it?

why does anybody need to read somebody else's personal take on a set list when deciding what boot is good for them

being somebody who has hundreds of hours of recordings herself I certainly don't need somebody telling me what they think is an A, B or C set - we all have our own tastes

maybe if people want to rate a show for the savant boot-buyer they should do it AFTER they've bought it themselves - in which case they can still only offer their own personal opinion

anyway - not here to argue at all - it just always blows me away when you go to a show that really means something to you and have some smug A-hole on the board come out with an "eh - I've heard Evenflow 53 out of the last 64 shows that I went to and I really could care less if they play it again"

well you know what?? - if the music doesn't move you anymore maybe it's time to give it up

(I don't mean that directly towards you Nakedeye666 - I'm speaking in general)

Nakedeye66 · September 2006

I agree with you. Simply rating a setlist as the holier-than-thou pronouncement of the SHOW's value is assinine (and impossible).

But to generically say this or that setlist looks better/worse or more/less unique can be a noteworthy observation, and helpful in picking purchases. I think it is A factor ... but certainly not THE factor. And the smug folks who look at a setlist and then deem it a good or bad show aren't very useful and usually aren't very correct either. By the same token, for a fan looking to buy the audio boots, things like the "experience", crowd noise, or visuals are similarly irrelevant (although a certain vibe can come through purely via audio). I guess I'll take this opportunity to reproduce some of my comments on the US Tour boots. My goal isn't to make pronouncements, but rather give enough commentary (beyond mere setlists) that helps fans choose. when I go on the boards to find out about shows, I always want to know MORE than just the setlists. So maybe this'll be helpful. Since so few of the Euro shows are even available right now, it'll be awhile before I opine on those. (The only shows I was at were both chicago and both Milwaukee shows)

[1] San Francisco 3 - Band was on a mission coming out of the short shows, and the west coast stretch proves it. The third Sf night reminds me a lot of the Buffalo show near the end of '03s first leg. Second only to Sweet Jane, Watchtower is arguably the most covered song of all time. For 30 years I've been listening to boots of varying quality with this song, and I now have a new favorite. Where has Untitled been? It's back here. Why is Red Mosquito so rare? It's back here. Present Tense, Why Go, In Hiding, Light Years. This show has a unique setlist and executed to the hilt. I think I'm comfortable calling this one the best, but still in the running for my personal favorite is also ...

[2] Santa Barbara - I'm not sure how the sets were set up. That first set isn't acoustic, but it seemed an early, shorter, mellower set ... and it's great! A superbly executed show that sees rarities Oceans, the Interstellar Overdrive Intro, and U. Grand Rapids is almost universally hailed as "the show" which, in my opinion, is based almost entirely on the first encore. Which begs the question ... where's the love for SB? The first set of which is every bit as good as the GR encore and is better as an overall show. Now I've never been to the Santa Barbara Bowl, but this show also might have the very best audio quality of the whole N.America tour. This could claim the #1 spot on my list before too long (though SF3 truly is the bomb).

[3] The Gorge 1 - Dirty Frank!! They actually played it, and with a vigor that makes it sound better with each repeated listening. As a matter of personal taste, Wash as an opener always sets a special tone (and seems to be there in so many of the best recent shows). The Mamasan trilogy opens first encore with Crown Of Thorns. Since it seems to me Footsteps and Crown Of Thorns alone gave Chicago 2 it's glowing reviews (I was there), this show has so much more overall (and outdoor shows always have a built-in advantage). Finally, Daughter gets the It's OK tag, which is a big favorite of mine and leads me to ...

[4] Cleveland - My favorite show of the first leg edging out Camden 2. The '03 show here was also superb but was similarly unheralded. Forgive the ill-fated attempt to open the show with a crowd singalong. The Daughter/It's Ok here is a tour highlight, as is Immortality which has become exceedingly rare. The setlist won't floor you, but the execution is top notch. I love the Roger Waters-esque megaphone on Comatose with it's slap at Detroit. Ed's banter during this Grand Rapids-Cleveland-Detroit stretch, always ripping on the other venues and shows, is hilarious.

[5] Camden 2 - I have frequently given love to the GR-Cle-Det trio of the first leg but this show is still in the running for the best of the leg. Philly gets great shows, and Wash openers. Although Leash is no longer a rarity, Satans Bed, Wishlist and Glorified G are. Only negative is the inexcusable appearance of You Are (aka Piss Break).

[6] Detroit - Ed's voice sounds exceptionally crisp this night, and the band quickly adjusts by scrapping the bad idea of singalong openers tried in Grand Rapids and Cleveland. Long Road makes a welcome return to open the show. Nothingman (in my opinion the strongest of the "man trilogy") makes it's only US appearance. And the Why Go-Porch-Indifference-Kick Out The Jams-YL stretch is maybe the best finale to any 2006 show. Though it's pretty commonplace now, this was the first show with the Star Spangled Banner tag to YL. I was giddy to hear Kick Out The Jams in '05, but this home of the MC5 provided inspiration S.America could not.

[7] Las Vegas - This is an unorthodox pick. Ed's banter in SD ripping this show is amusing, but I fear too many people are fawning over SD and dissing this one because of that commentary ... and not from listening to the actual shows. Ed was a bit under the weather, but unlike St.Paul-Fargo-Chicago in '03 (the Nyquil Trilogy), this show does not suffer at all. Inside Job works as an opener, the Fortunate Son-Porch closer for "W's birthday" is superb and includes a Dirty Frank tease-tag. The brief Come Back tag in black is a nice twist. And though I love Boom, Benmont Tench makes this one of the better versions of the otherwise rote Better Man. Throw in Little Sister and Parachutes, and this is a unique show you should give a try.

[8] Grand Rapids - Probably the longest show of the tour and the first encore is remarkable. Those reasons alone make it worthy of top mention, but i still buck the trend and do not believe this to be "the best" show. Other than that encore, the rest of the show is fairly ordinary. I keep listening to this show to find out what I must be missing. It's enjoyable no doubt, but fails to knock me off my feet like SF3, SB, or Gorge 1.

[9] San Diego - Great show all around, but like Grand Rapids I find a gap between the hype and the listening experience. No, I'm not being contrarian for its own sake. I've listened to these repeatedly and have no agenda. Besides, SF3 is hardly an against-the-grain pick. A welcome return for Oceans. The Long Road encore opener (and story) is great. and this Rearviewmirror version is one of the best, with a Life Wasted intro and a Time Heals (Todd Rundgren) tag. Great show, and there's plenty of SD chatter on the board for those trying to get more detail.

[10] Chicago 1 - Where is the love for this show? I'll add the disclaimer that this is my hometown, but I've never hesitated to say Chicago '03 SUCKED, and at a loss to understand the Chicago 2 hype (other than for Footsteps and Crown Of Thorns). With the exception of Alpine Valley in 2003, this was the best Illinois or Wisconsin show of the 21st century (Champaign '03 probably tied with this). This long show gives a great mix of hits and rarities. There's plenty of Ten, Even Flow and Porch jams as good as any, and mellow rarities like Low Light and I'm Open. And though I like to stay away from commenting on the "crowd", it's one thing to singalong with Better Man, but the crowd here handled PRESENT TENSE so admirably that Ed continues to do this in subsequent cities. And though I'm here for the music and not the politics, Bush detractors will love the Daughter tag. this show closed on fire, particularly the back-to-back Blood/Atomic Dog and Indifference. A long, well-executed, and good sounding show despite a horrible venue acoustically (United Center).

[11] Albany - Once 30+ shows rolled in afterwards, Albany lost a bit of its luster. Too bad, because this show is excellent. And when I go back to give it some more listens it could still easily move as high as #4 on this list. The return of Rats and Satans Bed, perfectly executed, are treats. The Wasted Reprise-Life Wasted works. No Code gets a nod with rarities Red Mosquito and Off He Goes. And the Porch is mindnumbingly good. The first 75% of this show is near-perfect, but it tails off a bit at the end. For only the third show of the tour, the band sounds amazingly crisp.

[12] The Gorge 2 - A top 10 or dozen makes sense, but outside of the classic Spinal Tap scene, "11" doesn't. this show was a solid finale to the tour and, although not perfect, what a treat to hear a full Little Wing.

Federico · September 2006

I was really willing to contribute wiht my humble opinion to this thread, but, with the length ofe the prevous posts, im sure nobody will reach to this point....

I give this thread a 6....not bad, but an average one

it´s a crime to have an opinion?

GhostChile · September 2006

The best example for this is:

SANTIAGO-NOVEMBER 22th, 2005.

Less than standard/short setlist, but what a show.

rebornFixer · September 2006

I have to pretty much agree with Nakedeye on this one.

share · September 2006

Nakedeye66 wrote:

I agree with you. Simply rating a setlist as the holier-than-thou pronouncement of the SHOW's value is assinine (and impossible).

But to generically say this or that setlist looks better/worse or more/less unique can be a noteworthy observation, and helpful in picking purchases. I think it is A factor ... but certainly not THE factor. And the smug folks who look at a setlist and then deem it a good or bad show aren't very useful and usually aren't very correct either. By the same token, for a fan looking to buy the audio boots, things like the "experience", crowd noise, or visuals are similarly irrelevant (although a certain vibe can come through purely via audio). I guess I'll take this opportunity to reproduce some of my comments on the US Tour boots. My goal isn't to make pronouncements, but rather give enough commentary (beyond mere setlists) that helps fans choose. when I go on the boards to find out about shows, I always want to know MORE than just the setlists. So maybe this'll be helpful. Since so few of the Euro shows are even available right now, it'll be awhile before I opine on those. (The only shows I was at were both chicago and both Milwaukee shows)

[1] San Francisco 3 - Band was on a mission coming out of the short shows, and the west coast stretch proves it. The third Sf night reminds me a lot of the Buffalo show near the end of '03s first leg. Second only to Sweet Jane, Watchtower is arguably the most covered song of all time. For 30 years I've been listening to boots of varying quality with this song, and I now have a new favorite. Where has Untitled been? It's back here. Why is Red Mosquito so rare? It's back here. Present Tense, Why Go, In Hiding, Light Years. This show has a unique setlist and executed to the hilt. I think I'm comfortable calling this one the best, but still in the running for my personal favorite is also ...

[2] Santa Barbara - I'm not sure how the sets were set up. That first set isn't acoustic, but it seemed an early, shorter, mellower set ... and it's great! A superbly executed show that sees rarities Oceans, the Interstellar Overdrive Intro, and U. Grand Rapids is almost universally hailed as "the show" which, in my opinion, is based almost entirely on the first encore. Which begs the question ... where's the love for SB? The first set of which is every bit as good as the GR encore and is better as an overall show. Now I've never been to the Santa Barbara Bowl, but this show also might have the very best audio quality of the whole N.America tour. This could claim the #1 spot on my list before too long (though SF3 truly is the bomb).

[3] The Gorge 1 - Dirty Frank!! They actually played it, and with a vigor that makes it sound better with each repeated listening. As a matter of personal taste, Wash as an opener always sets a special tone (and seems to be there in so many of the best recent shows). The Mamasan trilogy opens first encore with Crown Of Thorns. Since it seems to me Footsteps and Crown Of Thorns alone gave Chicago 2 it's glowing reviews (I was there), this show has so much more overall (and outdoor shows always have a built-in advantage). Finally, Daughter gets the It's OK tag, which is a big favorite of mine and leads me to ...

[4] Cleveland - My favorite show of the first leg edging out Camden 2. The '03 show here was also superb but was similarly unheralded. Forgive the ill-fated attempt to open the show with a crowd singalong. The Daughter/It's Ok here is a tour highlight, as is Immortality which has become exceedingly rare. The setlist won't floor you, but the execution is top notch. I love the Roger Waters-esque megaphone on Comatose with it's slap at Detroit. Ed's banter during this Grand Rapids-Cleveland-Detroit stretch, always ripping on the other venues and shows, is hilarious.

[5] Camden 2 - I have frequently given love to the GR-Cle-Det trio of the first leg but this show is still in the running for the best of the leg. Philly gets great shows, and Wash openers. Although Leash is no longer a rarity, Satans Bed, Wishlist and Glorified G are. Only negative is the inexcusable appearance of You Are (aka Piss Break).

[6] Detroit - Ed's voice sounds exceptionally crisp this night, and the band quickly adjusts by scrapping the bad idea of singalong openers tried in Grand Rapids and Cleveland. Long Road makes a welcome return to open the show. Nothingman (in my opinion the strongest of the "man trilogy") makes it's only US appearance. And the Why Go-Porch-Indifference-Kick Out The Jams-YL stretch is maybe the best finale to any 2006 show. Though it's pretty commonplace now, this was the first show with the Star Spangled Banner tag to YL. I was giddy to hear Kick Out The Jams in '05, but this home of the MC5 provided inspiration S.America could not.

[7] Las Vegas - This is an unorthodox pick. Ed's banter in SD ripping this show is amusing, but I fear too many people are fawning over SD and dissing this one because of that commentary ... and not from listening to the actual shows. Ed was a bit under the weather, but unlike St.Paul-Fargo-Chicago in '03 (the Nyquil Trilogy), this show does not suffer at all. Inside Job works as an opener, the Fortunate Son-Porch closer for "W's birthday" is superb and includes a Dirty Frank tease-tag. The brief Come Back tag in black is a nice twist. And though I love Boom, Benmont Tench makes this one of the better versions of the otherwise rote Better Man. Throw in Little Sister and Parachutes, and this is a unique show you should give a try.

[8] Grand Rapids - Probably the longest show of the tour and the first encore is remarkable. Those reasons alone make it worthy of top mention, but i still buck the trend and do not believe this to be "the best" show. Other than that encore, the rest of the show is fairly ordinary. I keep listening to this show to find out what I must be missing. It's enjoyable no doubt, but fails to knock me off my feet like SF3, SB, or Gorge 1.

[9] San Diego - Great show all around, but like Grand Rapids I find a gap between the hype and the listening experience. No, I'm not being contrarian for its own sake. I've listened to these repeatedly and have no agenda. Besides, SF3 is hardly an against-the-grain pick. A welcome return for Oceans. The Long Road encore opener (and story) is great. and this Rearviewmirror version is one of the best, with a Life Wasted intro and a Time Heals (Todd Rundgren) tag. Great show, and there's plenty of SD chatter on the board for those trying to get more detail.

[10] Chicago 1 - Where is the love for this show? I'll add the disclaimer that this is my hometown, but I've never hesitated to say Chicago '03 SUCKED, and at a loss to understand the Chicago 2 hype (other than for Footsteps and Crown Of Thorns). With the exception of Alpine Valley in 2003, this was the best Illinois or Wisconsin show of the 21st century (Champaign '03 probably tied with this). This long show gives a great mix of hits and rarities. There's plenty of Ten, Even Flow and Porch jams as good as any, and mellow rarities like Low Light and I'm Open. And though I like to stay away from commenting on the "crowd", it's one thing to singalong with Better Man, but the crowd here handled PRESENT TENSE so admirably that Ed continues to do this in subsequent cities. And though I'm here for the music and not the politics, Bush detractors will love the Daughter tag. this show closed on fire, particularly the back-to-back Blood/Atomic Dog and Indifference. A long, well-executed, and good sounding show despite a horrible venue acoustically (United Center).

[11] Albany - Once 30+ shows rolled in afterwards, Albany lost a bit of its luster. Too bad, because this show is excellent. And when I go back to give it some more listens it could still easily move as high as #4 on this list. The return of Rats and Satans Bed, perfectly executed, are treats. The Wasted Reprise-Life Wasted works. No Code gets a nod with rarities Red Mosquito and Off He Goes. And the Porch is mindnumbingly good. The first 75% of this show is near-perfect, but it tails off a bit at the end. For only the third show of the tour, the band sounds amazingly crisp.

[12] The Gorge 2 - A top 10 or dozen makes sense, but outside of the classic Spinal Tap scene, "11" doesn't. this show was a solid finale to the tour and, although not perfect, what a treat to hear a full Little Wing.

I still don't agree at all - but that's what makes the world go round

I'm not saying that there aren't people who want a breakdown of the show what I'm saying is that there is a time and a place for everything, maybe comments just shouldn't go in the show thread, I think people go there to share what a good time they had while they were there

maybe there should be a forum just for that kind of thing here at synergy- "OFF THE TRACK" or "THOSE BOOTS WERE MADE FOR TALKING" or something like that - see, out of banter comes great ideas

cheers

Nakedeye66 · September 2006

Share, I think you are missing the boat with me because overwhelmingly I AGREE with you. Setlists are overrated. I'm just saying that they have SOME value in assessing a show, as opposed to NO value. When you see the Torino setlist where they play Avocado straight through, doesn't it pique your interest? When you see songs like Tremor Christ come back out of the woodwork, don't it make you smile? When you see Dirty Frank, Education, or a cover they've never played before, does it ever make you think "I don't have any recordings of those songs, I'd like to get that boot?".

I've actually confirmed your point on other threads as to the Grand Rapids show. I think many people sing its praises based purely on the length and setlist, but upon many listens it's a bit sloppy and not that remarkable except for the slow song encore. Conversely, someone pointed out a great show that was a short show. How about Prague '00, a relatively short show yet one of the gems! State College '03 is real long, and sloppy. sure it was great they broke out Satans Bed, but it sounded like they hadnt practiced it in a decade. So, of course, none of us can really evaluate a show without being there ... and certainly without listening. But setlists aren't a bad starting point.

Anyhow, I like this thread. Share makes a valid point by getting annoyed at the people who rate shows purely on setlists. And I'm glad some point out that setlists can be useful when kept in perspective.

set list raters

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