Artists you love but hate to admit :D

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  • tempo_n_groove
    tempo_n_groove Posts: 41,483
    elvistheking44 said:
    Will Smith. Dude doesn’t make any bad songs.
    "Will Smith doesn't have to curse in his raps to sell records, well I do, so fuck him and fuck u too!"

    I always laughed at that one from eminem.
  • 2-feign-reluctance
    2-feign-reluctance TigerTown, USA Posts: 23,462
    Tim Simmons said:
    2-feign-reluctance said:
    Hootie’s first record. Only that one though. 
    Fairweather Johnson bands. Its their Reckoning. Tuckers Town is their best song.

    I'll give it a go. I was working in a record store when they blew up, I don't remember that follow up very fondly for some reason, but hey, that was a long ass time ago! 
    www.cluthelee.com
  • musicismylife78
    musicismylife78 Posts: 6,116
    Ed too has gone through this.  Back on the 90s he was slagging off the pop music of the day saying it was trash and meaningless.  Nowadays pop music and hip hop specifically is what rock was in the 60s.  It’s what the youth of today listen to and IS pop music now.  Now you have Ed and Dave Grohl giving props to Ed Sheehan, Niall and Billie Eilish.  And no doubt his kids are listening to that music as well.  At a certain point you get over that elitist attitude and just like what you like.  If someone gives you crap about listening to Taylor or Kelly Clarkson it’s their own loss, that’s some good music.  I think the 90s were harmful in that respect.  Amazing music, amazing to be a kid during it, but the whole “you suck as a musician and are a traitor and failure as a human if you work with corporations at all”, seeped into all our bloodstream and ultimately that’s harmful.  Pop music isn’t some evil entity, and indie music isn’t perfect either.  I think that whole black and white thinking is basic and boring, personally.  I’d rather live in the grey.  That whole us versus them idea is harmful.  If you can’t enjoy Taylor because it’s not deemed “cool”, that says more about the crowd you hang with, than it does the music 
  • tempo_n_groove
    tempo_n_groove Posts: 41,483
    musicismylife78 said:
    Ed too has gone through this.  Back on the 90s he was slagging off the pop music of the day saying it was trash and meaningless.  Nowadays pop music and hip hop specifically is what rock was in the 60s.  It’s what the youth of today listen to and IS pop music now.  Now you have Ed and Dave Grohl giving props to Ed Sheehan, Niall and Billie Eilish.  And no doubt his kids are listening to that music as well.  At a certain point you get over that elitist attitude and just like what you like.  If someone gives you crap about listening to Taylor or Kelly Clarkson it’s their own loss, that’s some good music.  I think the 90s were harmful in that respect.  Amazing music, amazing to be a kid during it, but the whole “you suck as a musician and are a traitor and failure as a human if you work with corporations at all”, seeped into all our bloodstream and ultimately that’s harmful.  Pop music isn’t some evil entity, and indie music isn’t perfect either.  I think that whole black and white thinking is basic and boring, personally.  I’d rather live in the grey.  That whole us versus them idea is harmful.  If you can’t enjoy Taylor because it’s not deemed “cool”, that says more about the crowd you hang with, than it does the music 
    Those artists you listed aren't manufactured bubble gum pop music though.  There is plenty of that on Z100 still is most likely what they meant.

    I'm still not sure what to think of Doja Cat, lol.
  • musicismylife78
    musicismylife78 Posts: 6,116
    tempo_n_groove said:
    musicismylife78 said:
    Ed too has gone through this.  Back on the 90s he was slagging off the pop music of the day saying it was trash and meaningless.  Nowadays pop music and hip hop specifically is what rock was in the 60s.  It’s what the youth of today listen to and IS pop music now.  Now you have Ed and Dave Grohl giving props to Ed Sheehan, Niall and Billie Eilish.  And no doubt his kids are listening to that music as well.  At a certain point you get over that elitist attitude and just like what you like.  If someone gives you crap about listening to Taylor or Kelly Clarkson it’s their own loss, that’s some good music.  I think the 90s were harmful in that respect.  Amazing music, amazing to be a kid during it, but the whole “you suck as a musician and are a traitor and failure as a human if you work with corporations at all”, seeped into all our bloodstream and ultimately that’s harmful.  Pop music isn’t some evil entity, and indie music isn’t perfect either.  I think that whole black and white thinking is basic and boring, personally.  I’d rather live in the grey.  That whole us versus them idea is harmful.  If you can’t enjoy Taylor because it’s not deemed “cool”, that says more about the crowd you hang with, than it does the music 
    Those artists you listed aren't manufactured bubble gum pop music though.  There is plenty of that on Z100 still is most likely what they meant.

    I'm still not sure what to think of Doja Cat, lol.
    But is manufactured bubble gum pop inherently bad?  I think it takes way more talent to write a pop hit that goes to number one and is catchy, than writing some obscure tune only 5 people know about, to be honest.  

    And people back in the 90's were saying the same thing.  You had, while the grunge thing and 'real rock" was going on, you had pop music, alot of which is now considered classic, and pop music fans back then were saying, "check it out, dude".  

    Im sort of over it, personally.  I went through that phase, and I pointed out Ed did too.  But ultimately if you are an artist you want your music heard or seen by as many people as possible.  OP is correct, Taylor is a legend, but the idea she is obsessed with fame and celebrity is absurd.  To my eyes, seems like she'd rather spend time alone with her boyfriend and cats than deal with fame.  Did you check out Miss Americana her Netflix doc from a few years back.  The idea she's some dumb as rocks fame obsessed idiot is pretty silly.    Look at how the narrative of Britney has morphed.  In 1999, every rock fan hated her and said her music and her style of music was the downfall of Western Culture and "real art".  Now she's seen as a feminist icon, and someone way more complex than we all gave her credit for.  You dont think the same is also true for alot of bubblegum pop artists?  Its elitist to think only indie music is sacred.  We all went through that phase.  Glad to see theres a thread about how we have moved beyond that.  

    Doja has a few good songs, I dont understand the whole Megan Thee Stallion, Cardi B scene myself, so I get it.  But this whole idea that we were fed in the 90's was crap, honestly.  And it stunted my music appreciation in a way.  I could have been enjoying lots of amazing music back then, not solely grunge bands on obscure labels with 2 fans total.  Sub Pop is great and legendary, but Warner Bros and major labels put out quality stuff too.  

    And I beg to differ everyone I named, has been slagged off on this board and in wider culture as being vapid silly teeny popper crap, Taylor, Ed Sheeran, Kelly Clarkson, Niall (he was part of One Direction for gods sake!) etc...  Those arent small time artists, folks.  Those are the top .1 percent of artists Id say.  Ed Sheeran and Taylor ALONE are the music industry, frankly.  

    I dont know I just sort of grew out of the "hey, she's signed to Universal Records so she's crap and I only listen to 7 inch vinyl prints of bands signed to some micro label in god knows where".  Thats stuff we said in middle school, and as teens.  I left that behind decades ago.  
  • musicismylife78
    musicismylife78 Posts: 6,116
    We were fed a line of bologna in the 90's that in order to even listen to something it had to not be a major label production, had to be "pure" whatever that meant.  Its just not the case.  Grunge was and is amazing.  But to sit there and tell me, pop stars are vapid and devoid of talent is the height of snobbishness.
  • musicismylife78
    musicismylife78 Posts: 6,116
    Check out the media just this week about Britney.  And specifically "Im a slave 4 U", which caused all us rockers to roll our eyes and gag, and caused society at large to meltdown about her image, the message she was sending kids and young girls.  Now 20 years later, the song is being looked at again and in a new context.  So who was right and who was wrong back in 1999 about Britney?  Was it us, the rockers who looked down our nose at those teenyboppers listening to that when they should have been listening to underground rock?  Or was it the bubblegum pop fans who enjoyed the hell out of the music back then and continue to?  At some point you gotta evolve, dude.  
  • musicismylife78
    musicismylife78 Posts: 6,116
    And its precisely the main point.  Taylor is making more interesting, relevant, career defining and culture defining music than anyone in rock.  Whats the last big rock band to influence the world and culture?  I cant come up with one.  Yet whatever you think of Taylor, Ed, or even Doja, theres no question THEY move culture.  Theres no debate at all.  Thats why kids today listen to it.  Rock got stale and boring, which is a shame as its an amazing genre with rich history.  But if I want experimental, interesting, out there music, i'd go check out whats happening in hiphop and pop, sooner than rock.  Taylor changes image and sound up every single album.  Rock to my ears in the last 20 years, where's the innovation?  Its the same album, cycle after cycle.  Change it up a little, maybe!  Name an artists in ANY medium in the last 20 years who has changed culture more than Taylor.  She is it, literally.  I love me some grunge, but if I want stuff thats "of the moment and state of the art", id sooner play her music than turn on some bland rock music station playing "modern rock".  Its boring.  
  • Tim Simmons
    Tim Simmons Posts: 9,682
    2-feign-reluctance said:
    Tim Simmons said:
    2-feign-reluctance said:
    Hootie’s first record. Only that one though. 
    Fairweather Johnson bands. Its their Reckoning. Tuckers Town is their best song.

    I'll give it a go. I was working in a record store when they blew up, I don't remember that follow up very fondly for some reason, but hey, that was a long ass time ago! 
    That was the problem with its rollout. CRV was still massive and all the singles were all over the radio. FJ doesn't sound dramatically different and they just rolled into that. 
  • cblock4life
    cblock4life Posts: 1,855
    My son put us on his unlimited iTunes downloads that he pays for (wasn’t even Christmas or birthday) and it’s the perfect gift.  
    Started listening to more stuff by Katy Perry and Lady Gaga….if you have a young daughter make sure you read the lyrics cause these girls can be filthy (slight innuendo throughout some songs).  And some excellent lyrics about accepting and loving yourself.
    I’m good with it but don’t have a daughter.  Everyone labels everyone and everything so bubble gum music, I don’t care cause these women can sing their asses off. Im agreeing with musicismylife and a lot of other postings above. 
  • mr bungle
    mr bungle Posts: 1,424
    Def Leppard has always been my guilty little secret.
  • brianlux
    brianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 43,664
    musicismylife78 said:
    And its precisely the main point.  Taylor is making more interesting, relevant, career defining and culture defining music than anyone in rock.  Whats the last big rock band to influence the world and culture?  I cant come up with one.  Yet whatever you think of Taylor, Ed, or even Doja, theres no question THEY move culture.  Theres no debate at all.  Thats why kids today listen to it.  Rock got stale and boring, which is a shame as its an amazing genre with rich history.  But if I want experimental, interesting, out there music, i'd go check out whats happening in hiphop and pop, sooner than rock.  Taylor changes image and sound up every single album.  Rock to my ears in the last 20 years, where's the innovation?  Its the same album, cycle after cycle.  Change it up a little, maybe!  Name an artists in ANY medium in the last 20 years who has changed culture more than Taylor.  She is it, literally.  I love me some grunge, but if I want stuff thats "of the moment and state of the art", id sooner play her music than turn on some bland rock music station playing "modern rock".  Its boring.  

    I am absolutely serious when I say this: looking at the world today, I very much doubt I would have any interest in any band in recent years that might have influenced world and culture.  In fact, most everything that has come out in this century has been produced by people who are not big on the world picture and have not influenced the world as it is today.  Thank the music gods for the great lesser known music artists of this century!
    "It's a sad and beautiful world"
    -Roberto Benigni

  • musicismylife78
    musicismylife78 Posts: 6,116
    brianlux said:
    musicismylife78 said:
    And its precisely the main point.  Taylor is making more interesting, relevant, career defining and culture defining music than anyone in rock.  Whats the last big rock band to influence the world and culture?  I cant come up with one.  Yet whatever you think of Taylor, Ed, or even Doja, theres no question THEY move culture.  Theres no debate at all.  Thats why kids today listen to it.  Rock got stale and boring, which is a shame as its an amazing genre with rich history.  But if I want experimental, interesting, out there music, i'd go check out whats happening in hiphop and pop, sooner than rock.  Taylor changes image and sound up every single album.  Rock to my ears in the last 20 years, where's the innovation?  Its the same album, cycle after cycle.  Change it up a little, maybe!  Name an artists in ANY medium in the last 20 years who has changed culture more than Taylor.  She is it, literally.  I love me some grunge, but if I want stuff thats "of the moment and state of the art", id sooner play her music than turn on some bland rock music station playing "modern rock".  Its boring.  

    I am absolutely serious when I say this: looking at the world today, I very much doubt I would have any interest in any band in recent years that might have influenced world and culture.  In fact, most everything that has come out in this century has been produced by people who are not big on the world picture and have not influenced the world as it is today.  Thank the music gods for the great lesser known music artists of this century!
    Who specifically are you talking about here?  
  • brianlux
    brianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 43,664
    musicismylife78 said:
    brianlux said:
    musicismylife78 said:
    And its precisely the main point.  Taylor is making more interesting, relevant, career defining and culture defining music than anyone in rock.  Whats the last big rock band to influence the world and culture?  I cant come up with one.  Yet whatever you think of Taylor, Ed, or even Doja, theres no question THEY move culture.  Theres no debate at all.  Thats why kids today listen to it.  Rock got stale and boring, which is a shame as its an amazing genre with rich history.  But if I want experimental, interesting, out there music, i'd go check out whats happening in hiphop and pop, sooner than rock.  Taylor changes image and sound up every single album.  Rock to my ears in the last 20 years, where's the innovation?  Its the same album, cycle after cycle.  Change it up a little, maybe!  Name an artists in ANY medium in the last 20 years who has changed culture more than Taylor.  She is it, literally.  I love me some grunge, but if I want stuff thats "of the moment and state of the art", id sooner play her music than turn on some bland rock music station playing "modern rock".  Its boring.  

    I am absolutely serious when I say this: looking at the world today, I very much doubt I would have any interest in any band in recent years that might have influenced world and culture.  In fact, most everything that has come out in this century has been produced by people who are not big on the world picture and have not influenced the world as it is today.  Thank the music gods for the great lesser known music artists of this century!
    Who specifically are you talking about here?  

    As far as lesser known greats making music today?  These are some that keep me inspired these days:
    Besides better known and still at it favorites Dinosaur Jr and Lou Barlow's work:
    Steve Wynn: Including the reformed The Dream Syndicate with the amazing Jason Victor playing lead guitar. Also his bands The Baseball
    Project (which include half of R.E.M.), Steve Wynn and the Miracle Three, and Danny and Dusty.
    Juliana Hatfield:  Certainly not new to the scene, but putting out great music at a rate to match almost anyone half her age.
    La Hell Gang: Only one LP that I've been able to track down so far (Thru Me Again), but this Chilean make some amazing Neo-psychedelia.
    Follakzoid:  Amazing 21st century Krautrock, also from Chile.
    Wolf Eyes:  I don't know how to explain this band.  There is nothing out there like them.
    Earthless:  And anything else Isaiah Mitchell has been up to.  More powerful than a 6.2 earthquake.
    Kikagaku Moyo:  Amazing young Japanese that includes and electric sitar thing- at least that's what it looks like.  Very cool!

    These, among others.  None of them are going to show up on your daily feed or maybe not even make it on the cover of Rolling Stone.  They are not shaping culture, but they are shaping the minds of curious listeners seeking something beyond the pale of the vast majority of today's uninspired, re-fried, and regurgitated music.  Not that any of that is bad.  (I don't believe in bad music.)



    "It's a sad and beautiful world"
    -Roberto Benigni

  • Tim Simmons
    Tim Simmons Posts: 9,682
    brianlux said:
    musicismylife78 said:
    brianlux said:
    musicismylife78 said:
    And its precisely the main point.  Taylor is making more interesting, relevant, career defining and culture defining music than anyone in rock.  Whats the last big rock band to influence the world and culture?  I cant come up with one.  Yet whatever you think of Taylor, Ed, or even Doja, theres no question THEY move culture.  Theres no debate at all.  Thats why kids today listen to it.  Rock got stale and boring, which is a shame as its an amazing genre with rich history.  But if I want experimental, interesting, out there music, i'd go check out whats happening in hiphop and pop, sooner than rock.  Taylor changes image and sound up every single album.  Rock to my ears in the last 20 years, where's the innovation?  Its the same album, cycle after cycle.  Change it up a little, maybe!  Name an artists in ANY medium in the last 20 years who has changed culture more than Taylor.  She is it, literally.  I love me some grunge, but if I want stuff thats "of the moment and state of the art", id sooner play her music than turn on some bland rock music station playing "modern rock".  Its boring.  

    I am absolutely serious when I say this: looking at the world today, I very much doubt I would have any interest in any band in recent years that might have influenced world and culture.  In fact, most everything that has come out in this century has been produced by people who are not big on the world picture and have not influenced the world as it is today.  Thank the music gods for the great lesser known music artists of this century!
    Who specifically are you talking about here?  

     They are not shaping culture, but they are shaping the minds of curious listeners seeking something beyond the pale...



    Isn't this technically shaping the culture? 


  • brianlux
    brianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 43,664
    edited November 2021
    Tim Simmons said:
    brianlux said:
    musicismylife78 said:
    brianlux said:
    musicismylife78 said:
    And its precisely the main point.  Taylor is making more interesting, relevant, career defining and culture defining music than anyone in rock.  Whats the last big rock band to influence the world and culture?  I cant come up with one.  Yet whatever you think of Taylor, Ed, or even Doja, theres no question THEY move culture.  Theres no debate at all.  Thats why kids today listen to it.  Rock got stale and boring, which is a shame as its an amazing genre with rich history.  But if I want experimental, interesting, out there music, i'd go check out whats happening in hiphop and pop, sooner than rock.  Taylor changes image and sound up every single album.  Rock to my ears in the last 20 years, where's the innovation?  Its the same album, cycle after cycle.  Change it up a little, maybe!  Name an artists in ANY medium in the last 20 years who has changed culture more than Taylor.  She is it, literally.  I love me some grunge, but if I want stuff thats "of the moment and state of the art", id sooner play her music than turn on some bland rock music station playing "modern rock".  Its boring.  

    I am absolutely serious when I say this: looking at the world today, I very much doubt I would have any interest in any band in recent years that might have influenced world and culture.  In fact, most everything that has come out in this century has been produced by people who are not big on the world picture and have not influenced the world as it is today.  Thank the music gods for the great lesser known music artists of this century!
    Who specifically are you talking about here?  

     They are not shaping culture, but they are shaping the minds of curious listeners seeking something beyond the pale...



    Isn't this technically shaping the culture? 



    It would be if our culture had more people curious beyond the popular stuff that makes the rounds.  I don't mean to sound harsh or condescending, but the average person really doesn't care enough about music to look past the easily consumed and/or readily available popular music.  And popular and readily available music, at this point in time, is really not adding much to the culture. When I ask, who is our Louis Armstrong or Charlie Parker, or John Coltrane of Jimi Hendrix or The Beatles or Brian Eno of today, about the only answer I get is "Kanye".   Jeez, how do I respond politely to that?  But I do think something revolutionary will happen again in music.   We're overdue.

    I don't mean to put down passive listeners- although I do love to turn people on to really great, lesser known music.  But, like, cuisine culture.  What do I know?  Very little.  I cook, and I cook often, but I improvise and do my own thing (my latest creation is something I call "Brian's North of the Border Tacos").  But real top-notch cuisine?  It's just not something I'm into. 
    "It's a sad and beautiful world"
    -Roberto Benigni

  • tempo_n_groove
    tempo_n_groove Posts: 41,483
    musicismylife78 said:
    Check out the media just this week about Britney.  And specifically "Im a slave 4 U", which caused all us rockers to roll our eyes and gag, and caused society at large to meltdown about her image, the message she was sending kids and young girls.  Now 20 years later, the song is being looked at again and in a new context.  So who was right and who was wrong back in 1999 about Britney?  Was it us, the rockers who looked down our nose at those teenyboppers listening to that when they should have been listening to underground rock?  Or was it the bubblegum pop fans who enjoyed the hell out of the music back then and continue to?  At some point you gotta evolve, dude.  
    I never stopped evolving.

    In the mid 90's we started to get spoonfed "grunge" acts.  That killed that genre and industry real quick.  I didn't care if the band was major signed or indie signed.  if it sounded good I listened to it.  So I might have listened to Slant 6 or Smashing Pumpkins to Chemical brothers and E40.

    Radio is spoonfeeding you music, to deny that would be disingenuous.  They have playlists on rotation for a reason.  I enjoy college radio and hiphop stations more than any rock stations.  Are there any rock stations anymore?


  • tempo_n_groove
    tempo_n_groove Posts: 41,483
    cblock4life said:
    My son put us on his unlimited iTunes downloads that he pays for (wasn’t even Christmas or birthday) and it’s the perfect gift.  
    Started listening to more stuff by Katy Perry and Lady Gaga….if you have a young daughter make sure you read the lyrics cause these girls can be filthy (slight innuendo throughout some songs).  And some excellent lyrics about accepting and loving yourself.
    I’m good with it but don’t have a daughter.  Everyone labels everyone and everything so bubble gum music, I don’t care cause these women can sing their asses off. Im agreeing with musicismylife and a lot of other postings above. 
    Katy Perry and Lady Gaga are NOT bubblegum pop either.  Both are perfecting their crafts.

    One hit wonders are generally the bubblegum stuff I would think of.
  • tempo_n_groove
    tempo_n_groove Posts: 41,483
    brianlux said:
    musicismylife78 said:
    brianlux said:
    musicismylife78 said:
    And its precisely the main point.  Taylor is making more interesting, relevant, career defining and culture defining music than anyone in rock.  Whats the last big rock band to influence the world and culture?  I cant come up with one.  Yet whatever you think of Taylor, Ed, or even Doja, theres no question THEY move culture.  Theres no debate at all.  Thats why kids today listen to it.  Rock got stale and boring, which is a shame as its an amazing genre with rich history.  But if I want experimental, interesting, out there music, i'd go check out whats happening in hiphop and pop, sooner than rock.  Taylor changes image and sound up every single album.  Rock to my ears in the last 20 years, where's the innovation?  Its the same album, cycle after cycle.  Change it up a little, maybe!  Name an artists in ANY medium in the last 20 years who has changed culture more than Taylor.  She is it, literally.  I love me some grunge, but if I want stuff thats "of the moment and state of the art", id sooner play her music than turn on some bland rock music station playing "modern rock".  Its boring.  

    I am absolutely serious when I say this: looking at the world today, I very much doubt I would have any interest in any band in recent years that might have influenced world and culture.  In fact, most everything that has come out in this century has been produced by people who are not big on the world picture and have not influenced the world as it is today.  Thank the music gods for the great lesser known music artists of this century!
    Who specifically are you talking about here?  

    As far as lesser known greats making music today?  These are some that keep me inspired these days:
    Besides better known and still at it favorites Dinosaur Jr and Lou Barlow's work:
    Steve Wynn: Including the reformed The Dream Syndicate with the amazing Jason Victor playing lead guitar. Also his bands The Baseball
    Project (which include half of R.E.M.), Steve Wynn and the Miracle Three, and Danny and Dusty.
    Juliana Hatfield:  Certainly not new to the scene, but putting out great music at a rate to match almost anyone half her age.
    La Hell Gang: Only one LP that I've been able to track down so far (Thru Me Again), but this Chilean make some amazing Neo-psychedelia.
    Follakzoid:  Amazing 21st century Krautrock, also from Chile.
    Wolf Eyes:  I don't know how to explain this band.  There is nothing out there like them.
    Earthless:  And anything else Isaiah Mitchell has been up to.  More powerful than a 6.2 earthquake.
    Kikagaku Moyo:  Amazing young Japanese that includes and electric sitar thing- at least that's what it looks like.  Very cool!

    These, among others.  None of them are going to show up on your daily feed or maybe not even make it on the cover of Rolling Stone.  They are not shaping culture, but they are shaping the minds of curious listeners seeking something beyond the pale of the vast majority of today's uninspired, re-fried, and regurgitated music.  Not that any of that is bad.  (I don't believe in bad music.)



    This is where you and I would differ.  I think artists like Jay Z, Kanye, Drake, Beyonce are all making a difference.  Not in the way you would most likely think of but they are changing a culture and a message.

    Hell Fiineas and Billie Eilish are making doing good things.

    The bands you do bring up are for higher learning maybe?  When kids shuffle off to college and enter someone else's dorm room?

    I like this music talk.  It's fun.
  • musicismylife78
    musicismylife78 Posts: 6,116
    I also think it’s important to note a lot of people are changing the culture whatever that means, in music, and that doesn’t mean they necessarily have easily have a message, or even one you agree with.  A poster seemed to balk at the idea that people like Taylor or pop artists are absolutely and have changed culture the last 10plus years to an extent not seen in rock or other genres.  I think it’s undeniable someone like Taylor’s impact.  It’s extremely self evident.  Or as someone brought up, Kanye.  You can love or hate him, it’s completely undeniable his influence on music, art, culture, hip hop, and even other genres.  Your appreciation of his music and art or him as a person isn’t dependent on that.  Can something be a classic and essential album and not be appealing to you?  Absolutely.  I was pointing out the influence on a gargantuan level that someone like Taylor has, versus some rinky dink rock band.  I was also trying to point out how malleable our viewpoint is.  The poster saying how awful the culture is that new big time artists are espousing and influencing, could very well and likely will be viewed quite differently by that poster, the participants and culture at large in 20 years.  Ithe redemption of Britney being the most current example.  People weren’t writing think pieces on her in 1998 and saying she was a deep thinker and had a valuable voice or function in society.  She was mocked, told she was promoting promiscuity and sexuality to a teenage audience, and her music itself was ridiculed.   I agree the mentality we were sold In The 90s was harmful, but it wasn’t just record labels spoonfeeding is that.  Ed promulgated that, as did Kurt.  We weren’t supposed to like “corporate magazines or corporate rock”, we should hate hair metal and GnR, we need to listen to “authentic rock”.  Ultimately music is music.  If it’s good it’s good, reguardless or record label status or pop star status or whatever people say.  

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