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White Privilege

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  • tempo_n_groovetempo_n_groove Posts: 27,245
    Yeah BLM movement was armed to the teeth too? Long rifles , zip ties, retc etc given free access to the whole capitol building! Pentagon refusing to send in the reserves yeah no way this was a coup.
    That is the definition of a coup.
  • Merkin BallerMerkin Baller Posts: 5,628
    edited January 8
    I'm beginning to wonder if this was a coup?  Maybe we all got our emotions played with on this?

    Divide us up even more?  Black helicopter talk?  Tin Foil hat?
    The lack of preparation in advance, Trump's inaction in the heat of the moment, the DOD's 90 minute delay in allowing MD to send backup*, the Capitol Police taking selfies w/ the insurrectionists after clashing... there's a lot of questions that need answering here. 

    There were guys who stormed the building w/ zip ties & more, they were looking to take hostages. This was not a peaceful protest that went bad. 

    * If you haven't watched Larry Hogan's press conference from yesterday, I recommend you do. 
    So here is something else I am noticing.  there were THOUSANDS of people there marching.  We are, and rightfully so, focusing on the chaos that ensued in the Capitol.
    Isn't this what the media focused on during the BLM rallies?  Only the chaos?

    That is why I say we are being played.

    Are you suggesting this was a false flag? 

    If so, that's a bridge too far for me. 
    No no.  The media is definitely not showing how the other 95% behaved.

    I understand that viewpoint, but considering what happened in Michigan w/ the storming of their capital and the failed kidnapping attempt of Whitmer, I don't have much of a problem with focusing on the 5% that tried to disrupt / overthrow the electoral process & possibly (likely?) worse. 

    I understand that may be hypocritical to then turn around and point out that 93% of BLM protests last year were peaceful, but what motives brought these people together to protest in the first place? 

    While I do believe many if not most people that converged on DC on Wednesday believe the election was stolen thanks to the lies of the GOP, I have little doubt many of them know damn well Biden won fair & square but just don't give a shit. 

  • dankinddankind I am not your foot. Posts: 17,924
    I'm beginning to wonder if this was a coup?  Maybe we all got our emotions played with on this?

    Divide us up even more?  Black helicopter talk?  Tin Foil hat?
    The lack of preparation in advance, Trump's inaction in the heat of the moment, the DOD's 90 minute delay in allowing MD to send backup*, the Capitol Police taking selfies w/ the insurrectionists after clashing... there's a lot of questions that need answering here. 

    There were guys who stormed the building w/ zip ties & more, they were looking to take hostages. This was not a peaceful protest that went bad. 

    * If you haven't watched Larry Hogan's press conference from yesterday, I recommend you do. 
    So here is something else I am noticing.  there were THOUSANDS of people there marching.  We are, and rightfully so, focusing on the chaos that ensued in the Capitol.
    Isn't this what the media focused on during the BLM rallies?  Only the chaos?

    That is why I say we are being played.

    Are you suggesting this was a false flag? 

    If so, that's a bridge too far for me. 
    No no.  The media is definitely not showing how the other 95% behaved.

    I understand that viewpoint, but considering what happened in Michigan w/ the storming of their capital and the failed kidnapping attempt of Whitmer, I don't have much of a problem with focusing on the 5% that tried to disrupt / overthrow the electoral process & possibly (likely?) worse. 

    I understand that may be hypocritical to then turn around and point out that 93% of BLM protests last year were peaceful, but what motives brought these people together to protest in the first place? 

    While I do believe many if not most people that converged on DC on Wednesday believe the election was stolen thanks to the lies of the GOP, I have little doubt many of them know damn well Biden won fair & square but just don't give a shit. 
    I think this is one of those cases in which to believe is to know, similar to how someone who believes in God knows that there is a God. To suggest that they know damn well that there isn't a God is absurd (of course, as is the very belief in God itself).

    These people know that Trump is their rightful president and that the deep state has stolen the election. There is no question in their minds that this is the God's truth. To suggest that they know otherwise is absurd (of course, as is the very belief in falsehoods itself).
    I SAW PEARL JAM
  • Merkin BallerMerkin Baller Posts: 5,628
    dankind said:
    I'm beginning to wonder if this was a coup?  Maybe we all got our emotions played with on this?

    Divide us up even more?  Black helicopter talk?  Tin Foil hat?
    The lack of preparation in advance, Trump's inaction in the heat of the moment, the DOD's 90 minute delay in allowing MD to send backup*, the Capitol Police taking selfies w/ the insurrectionists after clashing... there's a lot of questions that need answering here. 

    There were guys who stormed the building w/ zip ties & more, they were looking to take hostages. This was not a peaceful protest that went bad. 

    * If you haven't watched Larry Hogan's press conference from yesterday, I recommend you do. 
    So here is something else I am noticing.  there were THOUSANDS of people there marching.  We are, and rightfully so, focusing on the chaos that ensued in the Capitol.
    Isn't this what the media focused on during the BLM rallies?  Only the chaos?

    That is why I say we are being played.

    Are you suggesting this was a false flag? 

    If so, that's a bridge too far for me. 
    No no.  The media is definitely not showing how the other 95% behaved.

    I understand that viewpoint, but considering what happened in Michigan w/ the storming of their capital and the failed kidnapping attempt of Whitmer, I don't have much of a problem with focusing on the 5% that tried to disrupt / overthrow the electoral process & possibly (likely?) worse. 

    I understand that may be hypocritical to then turn around and point out that 93% of BLM protests last year were peaceful, but what motives brought these people together to protest in the first place? 

    While I do believe many if not most people that converged on DC on Wednesday believe the election was stolen thanks to the lies of the GOP, I have little doubt many of them know damn well Biden won fair & square but just don't give a shit. 
    I think this is one of those cases in which to believe is to know, similar to how someone who believes in God knows that there is a God. To suggest that they know damn well that there isn't a God is absurd (of course, as is the very belief in God itself).

    These people know that Trump is their rightful president and that the deep state has stolen the election. There is no question in their minds that this is the God's truth. To suggest that they know otherwise is absurd (of course, as is the very belief in falsehoods itself).
    Fair points. 

  • cblock4lifecblock4life Posts: 355
    mace1229 said:
    mace1229 said:
    mace1229 said:
    mace1229 said:
    mace1229 said:
    No reason to argue it - anyone who wants to discuss what went down today by comparing to this summers protests about the systemic racism in America is not interested in a real discussion.  

    Making that comparison is white privilege at work.
    I’m responding to the “if they were black....” comments. Has nothing to do with the reason for the protests/riots. Being about racism or politics, you can’t sit here and say if these people were black they would have been killed in mass numbers. That just didn’t happen. Pretending it did and would is being not interested in a real discussion.
    If these people were black they never would have made it into the capital.
    If they tried to get past police and storm the chambers there sure as hell would have been a lot of shooting.  
    We’re arguing a hypothetical, so we just have to disagree. I think the looting and riots that happened over the summer were shameful and I think storming the Capitol is shameful. I’m not happy or supporting or excusing any of it. I just don’t see color having anything to do with it. They were allowed to throw bricks at police without any consequence in the summer, I don’t see any reason to believe there’d be mass violence if this crowd was not white today. I don’t see how this is white privilege. And when you think about it, 1 riot in 1 city that lasted a few hours and the police shot 2 and killed 1. I can’t recall the police shooting anyone as a result of riots that lasted for months over the summer, that took place in dozens of cities who literally beat police and bystanders and burned down buildings and took over a police precinct. I can’t think of 1 person shot in all that (by police, as a direct result of a riot). If the summer protests had the same shooting rate as today there’d literally be hundreds dead from police. But like I said, it’s a hypothetical, you have your belief and I have mine. And that’s okay.
    No, police do all their black shootings with their cameras off and while no ones looking. And that’s not ok. And this is about anyone’s beliefs, this is about the truth. 
    It was about a hypothetical question. My comments weren’t about the system or anything else, just my opinion on a hypothetical question.
    That being said, I don’t know how anyone can believe yesterday’s riot was worse than the months of BLM riots. BLM riots lasted for months across the nation, many innocent bystanders were beaten and hospitalized. Some killed. Cops were targeted and beaten and shot. Hundreds of buildings destroyed. And it was allowed to happen. In many cases local officials gave permission for it to happen by openly stating they were not going to prosecute and allow room to demonstrate. Seems like I’m about the only one here who thinks the months of violence was worse than the few hours yesterday. By every measure it was worse. Yesterday was already over before I had a chance to come home and comment. We had multiple active threads on BLM riots.
    That doesn’t mean it wasn’t a terrible thing or that there doesn’t need to be changed in police practices. It just means riots that last for months across the entire country where hundreds are beaten and include several deaths and hundreds of buildings burned down is worse then one single riot that lasts a few hours and they break a few windows and enter a building and yell at people and the only serious injury and death that I’m aware of are those who participated in the riot. Show me where hundreds of buildings were completely destroyed and show me where hundreds of innocent bystanders were beaten or killed and I’ll admit I’m wrong.
    You’re not wrong but neither are those who found the lack of police from the offset as a clear indicator that it was because they were white. So hypothetically speaking would you agree the police presence would have been dramatically increased prior to the start of the proceedings if it were any group but whites?  
    I wouldn't. This summer we saw mayors, governors and other officials tell police to stand down when bricks and Molotov cocktails were thrown at them. We saw them refuse to press charges on destruction and violence. We saw them give up city block in Seattle to a CHAZ/CHAD concept, we saw them order police precincts be abandoned when they became under attack. There was a point to not allow law enforcement to push back on much of the violence that happened over the course of 3 or 4 months this summer. Why would I think that would suddenly change just because its January now?
    Maybe it would, but I have no reason or evidence to believe so.
    I'm talking about widespread protests and violence, there were still singular incidents that involved individuals, I'm not saying any of that didn't happen. But on a wide spread scale, BLM protestors, or those protesting under the BLM slogan, were pretty much allowed to get away with a lot more than what happened yesterday for months. 
    There were some examples over the summer with larger police presence. But in many cases, it was much less than last night. Police completely evacuated parts of cities and allowed complete destruction and looting. There were imagines of small police units in front of a mall just watching the looting going on because they were told to stand down. Last night 2 people were shot and 1 was killed, for being unarmed and breaking and entering through a window. That never came close to happening this summer. 
    You're embarrassing yourself at this point. 
    Care to elaborate? Was someone not shot and killed while climbing through a window in the capitol? Did she have a molotov cocktail or a brick to throw at police? Was she attempting to burn down the building? No, they shot her as she climbed through the capitol window. There's video of it. It happened.  Were larges riots not allowed to happen over the summer and take over police precincts and create CHAZ?CHAD? Could you explain what I said was wrong? Because it was all true, it all happened. I'm not sure why sharing facts is embarrassing. It isn't to me. 
    Feeling any different now that an officer lost his life? 
  • OnWis97OnWis97 St. Paul, MNPosts: 3,736
    I'm beginning to wonder if this was a coup?  Maybe we all got our emotions played with on this?

    Divide us up even more?  Black helicopter talk?  Tin Foil hat?
    You can certainly argue it wasn't a coup because just about everyone there had different ideas of what they were there to do. They didn't intend to have viking helmet guy assume the office of presidency. 

    What I believe Trump wanted when he basically told them to bust in was for the final ceremony in the election to be stopped because he thought, or hoped, that if it didn't go off as planned that he'd remain president. These people followed the lead of dear leader, not really knowing exactly what they were going to do. But if any lawmakers had been killed, that would have been collateral damage to these people and to Trump. Anyway, stopping the election from taking place, while not probably the textbook definition of "coup" certainly has elements.

    As for the cop who was murdered (I think he was struck in the head by a fire extinguisher).  "Blue Lives Matter" isn't a way of life, a philosophy or a principle.  It's a retort to "Black Lives Matter." Nothing more.
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  • Merkin BallerMerkin Baller Posts: 5,628
    OnWis97 said:
    I'm beginning to wonder if this was a coup?  Maybe we all got our emotions played with on this?

    Divide us up even more?  Black helicopter talk?  Tin Foil hat?
    You can certainly argue it wasn't a coup because just about everyone there had different ideas of what they were there to do. They didn't intend to have viking helmet guy assume the office of presidency. 

    What I believe Trump wanted when he basically told them to bust in was for the final ceremony in the election to be stopped because he thought, or hoped, that if it didn't go off as planned that he'd remain president. These people followed the lead of dear leader, not really knowing exactly what they were going to do. But if any lawmakers had been killed, that would have been collateral damage to these people and to Trump. Anyway, stopping the election from taking place, while not probably the textbook definition of "coup" certainly has elements.

    As for the cop who was murdered (I think he was struck in the head by a fire extinguisher).  "Blue Lives Matter" isn't a way of life, a philosophy or a principle.  It's a retort to "Black Lives Matter." Nothing more.
    Saw someone suggest that "Blue Lives Matter" was really just code for "Black Lives Don't Matter" and it's kind of hard to argue with that when you see people with thin blue line flags clashing w/ police. 

  • mace1229mace1229 Posts: 6,116
    mace1229 said:
    mace1229 said:
    I agree yesterday was disgusting and disgraceful. I agree Trump was in part to blame for not stepping up to the plate and also his actions since the elections. I agree those involved should be arrested and face charges. Really the only single thing that has been said here that I disagree with was that it would have been a blood bath if they weren't white. 
    I also agree that there have been cases of police brutality. But none of my comments were about that. I made that clear, I was not comparing last night to what happened to Floyd. I never did compare those 2 or deny what happen to Floyd was wrong.  
    The only thing I disagreed with was the outcome if they were black.
    This summer several police precincts were burned down or taken over with orders to retreat and not confront the attackers. Molotov cocktails and bricks were routinely thrown at police. City blocks were taken over. Random bystanders and store owners were beaten with sticks, rocks, fists or run over by cars and police were told to stand down. Looting happened in daylight with stores being raided and emptied and police were told to stand down. Hundreds of privately owned buildings were burned to the ground and police were told to stand down. Many elected officials made public they would drop charges for anyone arrested while others publicly stood behind the riots. CNN stood in front of a city block on fire with overturned police vehicles and told us it was peaceful. 
    I'm sure 14,000 were arrested over the summer. But you can't compared 3 months of rioting in nearly every state across the nation and compare that the a single incident that occurred in a single building and ask why only 50 were arrested last night. If they arrested 50 people every incident over the summer the total would be a lot higher than 14,000.
    So I have no reason to believe race played a role in that only 1 person was killed last night. The majority of responses are just meaningless snips of "you're delusional" and the like. Only 1 real answer, and that was this was a federal building. I accept that as a real argument, but still disagree. If crowds are allowed to burn police precincts and take them over for weeks, I don't see a big difference here.
    What I do see is a reluctance to still call out the violence of this summer. Which I believe played a major role in yesterday. It was bound to escalate and retaliate. The only difference is who these people voted for and now the rest are finally angry about it. But this has been going on for months, it was just ignored.
    I have no problem calling out those who acted yesterday, they were a stain on our society. So were those who burned down city blocks and use the death of someone they didn't know to steal themselves a new TV and beat innocent people into a coma, or worse.
    I think I've said my peace here on this topic.
    sorry dude. terrible take. 

    the insurrection had nothing to do with the summer riots. the violence yesterday was incited by the president and his cronies. he told them to come there. he told them to be strong. he told them not to give up. he knew what he was doing. it was a call to arms. you'd have to be borderline brain dead to not have been able to predict that happening after his rally. 

    without trump's rally, there would have been no one there. or at least not enough to overcome the DC police. 

    no one ignored the violence in the summer. many of us routinely denounced violence that wasn't an act of self defence. 

    it is a statistical fact that a black man dealing with law enforcement is SIX TIMES MORE LIKELY TO DIE THAN A WHITE MAN. 
    I agree, Trump called them and is to blame. Without him and his statements it probably would not have happened. But you can't say the climate of the last 7 or 8 months didn't play a role in emboldening those involved.

    Many here denounced the violence, yes. But those in charge allowed it. How long did seattle wait to get things under control? And how many other cities let things go to crap first and gave stand down orders to police and let people just burn things? That's what I meant when I said it went ignored. 

    Your last statement may be true, but that doesn't apply to the riots, that is individual cases like Floyd, etc. I wasn't discussing any individual cases. Just responding to comparing of what happened yesterday to what's been going on for months. 
    doesn't apply to riots? so cops all of a sudden start treating people equally when it's more than one person? LOL

    "justice is blind (as long as you're in a group)"
    The topic being discussed was comparing BLM riots to the capitol riot. George Floyd was not killed in a riot, nor was he involved in a riot that we are aware of. So yes, his example, and the several others mentioned, do not apply to this conversation of BLM riots and the capitol riot. I could talk about how frustrated I am that Pluto is no longer a planet, but that doesn't have anything to do with the topic either, which was riots. 
  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon HeadstoniaPosts: 26,557
    mace1229 said:
    mace1229 said:
    mace1229 said:
    I agree yesterday was disgusting and disgraceful. I agree Trump was in part to blame for not stepping up to the plate and also his actions since the elections. I agree those involved should be arrested and face charges. Really the only single thing that has been said here that I disagree with was that it would have been a blood bath if they weren't white. 
    I also agree that there have been cases of police brutality. But none of my comments were about that. I made that clear, I was not comparing last night to what happened to Floyd. I never did compare those 2 or deny what happen to Floyd was wrong.  
    The only thing I disagreed with was the outcome if they were black.
    This summer several police precincts were burned down or taken over with orders to retreat and not confront the attackers. Molotov cocktails and bricks were routinely thrown at police. City blocks were taken over. Random bystanders and store owners were beaten with sticks, rocks, fists or run over by cars and police were told to stand down. Looting happened in daylight with stores being raided and emptied and police were told to stand down. Hundreds of privately owned buildings were burned to the ground and police were told to stand down. Many elected officials made public they would drop charges for anyone arrested while others publicly stood behind the riots. CNN stood in front of a city block on fire with overturned police vehicles and told us it was peaceful. 
    I'm sure 14,000 were arrested over the summer. But you can't compared 3 months of rioting in nearly every state across the nation and compare that the a single incident that occurred in a single building and ask why only 50 were arrested last night. If they arrested 50 people every incident over the summer the total would be a lot higher than 14,000.
    So I have no reason to believe race played a role in that only 1 person was killed last night. The majority of responses are just meaningless snips of "you're delusional" and the like. Only 1 real answer, and that was this was a federal building. I accept that as a real argument, but still disagree. If crowds are allowed to burn police precincts and take them over for weeks, I don't see a big difference here.
    What I do see is a reluctance to still call out the violence of this summer. Which I believe played a major role in yesterday. It was bound to escalate and retaliate. The only difference is who these people voted for and now the rest are finally angry about it. But this has been going on for months, it was just ignored.
    I have no problem calling out those who acted yesterday, they were a stain on our society. So were those who burned down city blocks and use the death of someone they didn't know to steal themselves a new TV and beat innocent people into a coma, or worse.
    I think I've said my peace here on this topic.
    sorry dude. terrible take. 

    the insurrection had nothing to do with the summer riots. the violence yesterday was incited by the president and his cronies. he told them to come there. he told them to be strong. he told them not to give up. he knew what he was doing. it was a call to arms. you'd have to be borderline brain dead to not have been able to predict that happening after his rally. 

    without trump's rally, there would have been no one there. or at least not enough to overcome the DC police. 

    no one ignored the violence in the summer. many of us routinely denounced violence that wasn't an act of self defence. 

    it is a statistical fact that a black man dealing with law enforcement is SIX TIMES MORE LIKELY TO DIE THAN A WHITE MAN. 
    I agree, Trump called them and is to blame. Without him and his statements it probably would not have happened. But you can't say the climate of the last 7 or 8 months didn't play a role in emboldening those involved.

    Many here denounced the violence, yes. But those in charge allowed it. How long did seattle wait to get things under control? And how many other cities let things go to crap first and gave stand down orders to police and let people just burn things? That's what I meant when I said it went ignored. 

    Your last statement may be true, but that doesn't apply to the riots, that is individual cases like Floyd, etc. I wasn't discussing any individual cases. Just responding to comparing of what happened yesterday to what's been going on for months. 
    doesn't apply to riots? so cops all of a sudden start treating people equally when it's more than one person? LOL

    "justice is blind (as long as you're in a group)"
    The topic being discussed was comparing BLM riots to the capitol riot. George Floyd was not killed in a riot, nor was he involved in a riot that we are aware of. So yes, his example, and the several others mentioned, do not apply to this conversation of BLM riots and the capitol riot. I could talk about how frustrated I am that Pluto is no longer a planet, but that doesn't have anything to do with the topic either, which was riots. 
    first, separating the two is absurd. 

    second, comparing riots to riots is something we've all been doing here.  there were hundreds of incidents on video of black people doing nothing threatening to the cops and being beaten and abused. did you see any of the peaceful protestors at the capitol being beaten, tazed, pepper sprayed?

    I didn't. that's proof right there. 
    (Track 10 of The Headstones' Nickels For Your Nightmares)


  • mace1229mace1229 Posts: 6,116
    mace1229 said:
    I agree yesterday was disgusting and disgraceful. I agree Trump was in part to blame for not stepping up to the plate and also his actions since the elections. I agree those involved should be arrested and face charges. Really the only single thing that has been said here that I disagree with was that it would have been a blood bath if they weren't white. 
    I also agree that there have been cases of police brutality. But none of my comments were about that. I made that clear, I was not comparing last night to what happened to Floyd. I never did compare those 2 or deny what happen to Floyd was wrong.  
    The only thing I disagreed with was the outcome if they were black.
    This summer several police precincts were burned down or taken over with orders to retreat and not confront the attackers. Molotov cocktails and bricks were routinely thrown at police. City blocks were taken over. Random bystanders and store owners were beaten with sticks, rocks, fists or run over by cars and police were told to stand down. Looting happened in daylight with stores being raided and emptied and police were told to stand down. Hundreds of privately owned buildings were burned to the ground and police were told to stand down. Many elected officials made public they would drop charges for anyone arrested while others publicly stood behind the riots. CNN stood in front of a city block on fire with overturned police vehicles and told us it was peaceful. 
    I'm sure 14,000 were arrested over the summer. But you can't compared 3 months of rioting in nearly every state across the nation and compare that the a single incident that occurred in a single building and ask why only 50 were arrested last night. If they arrested 50 people every incident over the summer the total would be a lot higher than 14,000.
    So I have no reason to believe race played a role in that only 1 person was killed last night. The majority of responses are just meaningless snips of "you're delusional" and the like. Only 1 real answer, and that was this was a federal building. I accept that as a real argument, but still disagree. If crowds are allowed to burn police precincts and take them over for weeks, I don't see a big difference here.
    What I do see is a reluctance to still call out the violence of this summer. Which I believe played a major role in yesterday. It was bound to escalate and retaliate. The only difference is who these people voted for and now the rest are finally angry about it. But this has been going on for months, it was just ignored.
    I have no problem calling out those who acted yesterday, they were a stain on our society. So were those who burned down city blocks and use the death of someone they didn't know to steal themselves a new TV and beat innocent people into a coma, or worse.
    I think I've said my peace here on this topic.

    Hidden in Plain Sight: Racism, White Supremacy, and Far-Right Militancy in Law Enforcement

    https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/research-reports/hidden-plain-sight-racism-white-supremacy-and-far-right-militancy-law

    To suggest that white supremacists are "retaliating" against some grievance they have with black people for protesting is just JAW DROPPING. Hundreds of years of slavery. Another hundred years or so of terrorism committed in their neighborhoods against their families. We should feel blessed that we've gotten off with a few burnt down police stations and some stolen TVs. 
    I don't disagree, except that isn't only what happened. People were killed, many more seriously injured, I doub't their families feel that blessed. 
    But my point was they were allowed to do it. Am I the only one who thinks letting one group, doesn't matter what goup-any group, to openly create the destruction that happened, that another group would also rise to that same level? That isn't surprising to me at all. But it does seem to be surprising to everyone here, all the news outlets and all the late night hosts.
    That doesn't mean it is okay, that doesn't mean I don't blame Trump for his comments, that doesn't mean there aren't issues in law enforcement. It just means I could have told you back in May that when that was allowed to happen, I knew this was coming.
  • tempo_n_groovetempo_n_groove Posts: 27,245
    OnWis97 said:
    I'm beginning to wonder if this was a coup?  Maybe we all got our emotions played with on this?

    Divide us up even more?  Black helicopter talk?  Tin Foil hat?
    You can certainly argue it wasn't a coup because just about everyone there had different ideas of what they were there to do. They didn't intend to have viking helmet guy assume the office of presidency. 

    What I believe Trump wanted when he basically told them to bust in was for the final ceremony in the election to be stopped because he thought, or hoped, that if it didn't go off as planned that he'd remain president. These people followed the lead of dear leader, not really knowing exactly what they were going to do. But if any lawmakers had been killed, that would have been collateral damage to these people and to Trump. Anyway, stopping the election from taking place, while not probably the textbook definition of "coup" certainly has elements.

    As for the cop who was murdered (I think he was struck in the head by a fire extinguisher).  "Blue Lives Matter" isn't a way of life, a philosophy or a principle.  It's a retort to "Black Lives Matter." Nothing more.
    Saw someone suggest that "Blue Lives Matter" was really just code for "Black Lives Don't Matter" and it's kind of hard to argue with that when you see people with thin blue line flags clashing w/ police. 
    I think Blue Lives Matter was a knee jerk reaction by the cops that thought they weren't being looked at as people saving lives so they branded that term after seeing the BLM one gain momentum.  It's gone sooo bad for them that they doubled down on it.
  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon HeadstoniaPosts: 26,557
    charlottesville predates BLM. if we are to argue that one violent incident begets another, which I don't think it does, then you'd have to recognize that the blame can't go to BLM. especially if the MAGATS saw what went on, you'd have to be borderline brain dead to "want" to engage in being beaten the fuck out of by police for peacefully protesting, which is what happened in many, many incidents. 

    suggesting there was some conscious decision by a bunch of MAGATS that "well, the blacks got away with it, so can we" is again, absurd. 
    (Track 10 of The Headstones' Nickels For Your Nightmares)


  • mace1229mace1229 Posts: 6,116
    mace1229 said:
    mace1229 said:
    mace1229 said:
    mace1229 said:
    mace1229 said:
    No reason to argue it - anyone who wants to discuss what went down today by comparing to this summers protests about the systemic racism in America is not interested in a real discussion.  

    Making that comparison is white privilege at work.
    I’m responding to the “if they were black....” comments. Has nothing to do with the reason for the protests/riots. Being about racism or politics, you can’t sit here and say if these people were black they would have been killed in mass numbers. That just didn’t happen. Pretending it did and would is being not interested in a real discussion.
    If these people were black they never would have made it into the capital.
    If they tried to get past police and storm the chambers there sure as hell would have been a lot of shooting.  
    We’re arguing a hypothetical, so we just have to disagree. I think the looting and riots that happened over the summer were shameful and I think storming the Capitol is shameful. I’m not happy or supporting or excusing any of it. I just don’t see color having anything to do with it. They were allowed to throw bricks at police without any consequence in the summer, I don’t see any reason to believe there’d be mass violence if this crowd was not white today. I don’t see how this is white privilege. And when you think about it, 1 riot in 1 city that lasted a few hours and the police shot 2 and killed 1. I can’t recall the police shooting anyone as a result of riots that lasted for months over the summer, that took place in dozens of cities who literally beat police and bystanders and burned down buildings and took over a police precinct. I can’t think of 1 person shot in all that (by police, as a direct result of a riot). If the summer protests had the same shooting rate as today there’d literally be hundreds dead from police. But like I said, it’s a hypothetical, you have your belief and I have mine. And that’s okay.
    No, police do all their black shootings with their cameras off and while no ones looking. And that’s not ok. And this is about anyone’s beliefs, this is about the truth. 
    It was about a hypothetical question. My comments weren’t about the system or anything else, just my opinion on a hypothetical question.
    That being said, I don’t know how anyone can believe yesterday’s riot was worse than the months of BLM riots. BLM riots lasted for months across the nation, many innocent bystanders were beaten and hospitalized. Some killed. Cops were targeted and beaten and shot. Hundreds of buildings destroyed. And it was allowed to happen. In many cases local officials gave permission for it to happen by openly stating they were not going to prosecute and allow room to demonstrate. Seems like I’m about the only one here who thinks the months of violence was worse than the few hours yesterday. By every measure it was worse. Yesterday was already over before I had a chance to come home and comment. We had multiple active threads on BLM riots.
    That doesn’t mean it wasn’t a terrible thing or that there doesn’t need to be changed in police practices. It just means riots that last for months across the entire country where hundreds are beaten and include several deaths and hundreds of buildings burned down is worse then one single riot that lasts a few hours and they break a few windows and enter a building and yell at people and the only serious injury and death that I’m aware of are those who participated in the riot. Show me where hundreds of buildings were completely destroyed and show me where hundreds of innocent bystanders were beaten or killed and I’ll admit I’m wrong.
    You’re not wrong but neither are those who found the lack of police from the offset as a clear indicator that it was because they were white. So hypothetically speaking would you agree the police presence would have been dramatically increased prior to the start of the proceedings if it were any group but whites?  
    I wouldn't. This summer we saw mayors, governors and other officials tell police to stand down when bricks and Molotov cocktails were thrown at them. We saw them refuse to press charges on destruction and violence. We saw them give up city block in Seattle to a CHAZ/CHAD concept, we saw them order police precincts be abandoned when they became under attack. There was a point to not allow law enforcement to push back on much of the violence that happened over the course of 3 or 4 months this summer. Why would I think that would suddenly change just because its January now?
    Maybe it would, but I have no reason or evidence to believe so.
    I'm talking about widespread protests and violence, there were still singular incidents that involved individuals, I'm not saying any of that didn't happen. But on a wide spread scale, BLM protestors, or those protesting under the BLM slogan, were pretty much allowed to get away with a lot more than what happened yesterday for months. 
    There were some examples over the summer with larger police presence. But in many cases, it was much less than last night. Police completely evacuated parts of cities and allowed complete destruction and looting. There were imagines of small police units in front of a mall just watching the looting going on because they were told to stand down. Last night 2 people were shot and 1 was killed, for being unarmed and breaking and entering through a window. That never came close to happening this summer. 
    You're embarrassing yourself at this point. 
    Care to elaborate? Was someone not shot and killed while climbing through a window in the capitol? Did she have a molotov cocktail or a brick to throw at police? Was she attempting to burn down the building? No, they shot her as she climbed through the capitol window. There's video of it. It happened.  Were larges riots not allowed to happen over the summer and take over police precincts and create CHAZ?CHAD? Could you explain what I said was wrong? Because it was all true, it all happened. I'm not sure why sharing facts is embarrassing. It isn't to me. 
    Feeling any different now that an officer lost his life? 
    Not really. Wednesday I felt sad for our country. I felt angry at Trump for his comments. I felt the police didn't do a great job all around. I felt the rioters were completely wrong. I felt sad for the woman killed-even though she shouldn't have been there, she didn't deserve to die.  I still feel that way, a police officer being killed hasn't changed it. 
  • what dreamswhat dreams Posts: 1,714
    I would never say that anyone being shot and killed is okay. 

    I'm saying, let's not be surprised when a people who have been systematically executed for centuries in this country start shooting back.
  • JeBurkhardtJeBurkhardt Posts: 930
    mace1229 said:
    mace1229 said:
    I agree yesterday was disgusting and disgraceful. I agree Trump was in part to blame for not stepping up to the plate and also his actions since the elections. I agree those involved should be arrested and face charges. Really the only single thing that has been said here that I disagree with was that it would have been a blood bath if they weren't white. 
    I also agree that there have been cases of police brutality. But none of my comments were about that. I made that clear, I was not comparing last night to what happened to Floyd. I never did compare those 2 or deny what happen to Floyd was wrong.  
    The only thing I disagreed with was the outcome if they were black.
    This summer several police precincts were burned down or taken over with orders to retreat and not confront the attackers. Molotov cocktails and bricks were routinely thrown at police. City blocks were taken over. Random bystanders and store owners were beaten with sticks, rocks, fists or run over by cars and police were told to stand down. Looting happened in daylight with stores being raided and emptied and police were told to stand down. Hundreds of privately owned buildings were burned to the ground and police were told to stand down. Many elected officials made public they would drop charges for anyone arrested while others publicly stood behind the riots. CNN stood in front of a city block on fire with overturned police vehicles and told us it was peaceful. 
    I'm sure 14,000 were arrested over the summer. But you can't compared 3 months of rioting in nearly every state across the nation and compare that the a single incident that occurred in a single building and ask why only 50 were arrested last night. If they arrested 50 people every incident over the summer the total would be a lot higher than 14,000.
    So I have no reason to believe race played a role in that only 1 person was killed last night. The majority of responses are just meaningless snips of "you're delusional" and the like. Only 1 real answer, and that was this was a federal building. I accept that as a real argument, but still disagree. If crowds are allowed to burn police precincts and take them over for weeks, I don't see a big difference here.
    What I do see is a reluctance to still call out the violence of this summer. Which I believe played a major role in yesterday. It was bound to escalate and retaliate. The only difference is who these people voted for and now the rest are finally angry about it. But this has been going on for months, it was just ignored.
    I have no problem calling out those who acted yesterday, they were a stain on our society. So were those who burned down city blocks and use the death of someone they didn't know to steal themselves a new TV and beat innocent people into a coma, or worse.
    I think I've said my peace here on this topic.

    Hidden in Plain Sight: Racism, White Supremacy, and Far-Right Militancy in Law Enforcement

    https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/research-reports/hidden-plain-sight-racism-white-supremacy-and-far-right-militancy-law

    To suggest that white supremacists are "retaliating" against some grievance they have with black people for protesting is just JAW DROPPING. Hundreds of years of slavery. Another hundred years or so of terrorism committed in their neighborhoods against their families. We should feel blessed that we've gotten off with a few burnt down police stations and some stolen TVs. 
    I don't disagree, except that isn't only what happened. People were killed, many more seriously injured, I doub't their families feel that blessed. 
    But my point was they were allowed to do it. Am I the only one who thinks letting one group, doesn't matter what goup-any group, to openly create the destruction that happened, that another group would also rise to that same level? That isn't surprising to me at all. But it does seem to be surprising to everyone here, all the news outlets and all the late night hosts.
    That doesn't mean it is okay, that doesn't mean I don't blame Trump for his comments, that doesn't mean there aren't issues in law enforcement. It just means I could have told you back in May that when that was allowed to happen, I knew this was coming.
    I had a co worker, who is a hard core Republican, tell me while the rioting was going on "now it's our turn". He felt it was justified because of the protests that had turned violent this Summer. 
  • what dreamswhat dreams Posts: 1,714
    When it's police doing the shooting, it's always "a few bad apples."

    When it's black people doing it, we're supposed to denounce an entire movement. 

    Let's quit with "the few bad apples" and start addressing the structural problems that create the conditions for this behavior. We'll never do that as long as white people continue to deny that our entire social fabric is built around white privilege.
  • BentleyspopBentleyspop Craft Beer Brewery, ColoradoPosts: 8,824
    edited January 8
    charlottesville predates BLM. if we are to argue that one violent incident begets another, which I don't think it does, then you'd have to recognize that the blame can't go to BLM. especially if the MAGATS saw what went on, you'd have to be borderline brain dead to "want" to engage in being beaten the fuck out of by police for peacefully protesting, which is what happened in many, many incidents. 

    suggesting there was some conscious decision by a bunch of MAGATS that "well, the blacks got away with it, so can we" is again, absurd. 
    To be historically accurate BLM came about in 2013 in the wake of zimmerman being found innocent. It became well known after the riots in Ferguson, MO.

    White supremacists didn't become emboldened until they had people in the white house.

    As for the MAGAts they had the thumbs up from their leader to attack the Capitol.
  • mace1229mace1229 Posts: 6,116
    charlottesville predates BLM. if we are to argue that one violent incident begets another, which I don't think it does, then you'd have to recognize that the blame can't go to BLM. especially if the MAGATS saw what went on, you'd have to be borderline brain dead to "want" to engage in being beaten the fuck out of by police for peacefully protesting, which is what happened in many, many incidents. 

    suggesting there was some conscious decision by a bunch of MAGATS that "well, the blacks got away with it, so can we" is again, absurd. 
    I don't think there was some secret meeting where they had that discussion. But it's human behavior. You don't think when one thing is allowed and accepted for months, it becomes the norm? There is no need for a secret meeting or discussion about it. No one saw the consequence of repeatedly calling this a peaceful protest and allowing it to continue and setting it as the bar but me?  You don't need a conscious decision to make that happen.

  • what dreamswhat dreams Posts: 1,714
    mace1229 said:
    mace1229 said:
    I agree yesterday was disgusting and disgraceful. I agree Trump was in part to blame for not stepping up to the plate and also his actions since the elections. I agree those involved should be arrested and face charges. Really the only single thing that has been said here that I disagree with was that it would have been a blood bath if they weren't white. 
    I also agree that there have been cases of police brutality. But none of my comments were about that. I made that clear, I was not comparing last night to what happened to Floyd. I never did compare those 2 or deny what happen to Floyd was wrong.  
    The only thing I disagreed with was the outcome if they were black.
    This summer several police precincts were burned down or taken over with orders to retreat and not confront the attackers. Molotov cocktails and bricks were routinely thrown at police. City blocks were taken over. Random bystanders and store owners were beaten with sticks, rocks, fists or run over by cars and police were told to stand down. Looting happened in daylight with stores being raided and emptied and police were told to stand down. Hundreds of privately owned buildings were burned to the ground and police were told to stand down. Many elected officials made public they would drop charges for anyone arrested while others publicly stood behind the riots. CNN stood in front of a city block on fire with overturned police vehicles and told us it was peaceful. 
    I'm sure 14,000 were arrested over the summer. But you can't compared 3 months of rioting in nearly every state across the nation and compare that the a single incident that occurred in a single building and ask why only 50 were arrested last night. If they arrested 50 people every incident over the summer the total would be a lot higher than 14,000.
    So I have no reason to believe race played a role in that only 1 person was killed last night. The majority of responses are just meaningless snips of "you're delusional" and the like. Only 1 real answer, and that was this was a federal building. I accept that as a real argument, but still disagree. If crowds are allowed to burn police precincts and take them over for weeks, I don't see a big difference here.
    What I do see is a reluctance to still call out the violence of this summer. Which I believe played a major role in yesterday. It was bound to escalate and retaliate. The only difference is who these people voted for and now the rest are finally angry about it. But this has been going on for months, it was just ignored.
    I have no problem calling out those who acted yesterday, they were a stain on our society. So were those who burned down city blocks and use the death of someone they didn't know to steal themselves a new TV and beat innocent people into a coma, or worse.
    I think I've said my peace here on this topic.

    Hidden in Plain Sight: Racism, White Supremacy, and Far-Right Militancy in Law Enforcement

    https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/research-reports/hidden-plain-sight-racism-white-supremacy-and-far-right-militancy-law

    To suggest that white supremacists are "retaliating" against some grievance they have with black people for protesting is just JAW DROPPING. Hundreds of years of slavery. Another hundred years or so of terrorism committed in their neighborhoods against their families. We should feel blessed that we've gotten off with a few burnt down police stations and some stolen TVs. 
    I don't disagree, except that isn't only what happened. People were killed, many more seriously injured, I doub't their families feel that blessed. 
    But my point was they were allowed to do it. Am I the only one who thinks letting one group, doesn't matter what goup-any group, to openly create the destruction that happened, that another group would also rise to that same level? That isn't surprising to me at all. But it does seem to be surprising to everyone here, all the news outlets and all the late night hosts.
    That doesn't mean it is okay, that doesn't mean I don't blame Trump for his comments, that doesn't mean there aren't issues in law enforcement. It just means I could have told you back in May that when that was allowed to happen, I knew this was coming.
    I had a co worker, who is a hard core Republican, tell me while the rioting was going on "now it's our turn". He felt it was justified because of the protests that had turned violent this Summer. 
    This is what I'm talking about: "Now it's our turn."

    No dude, it's been the "turn" of white people since the 17th century.  It's maddening that any white person would feel this way. It's a complete denial of the reality of racism.
  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon HeadstoniaPosts: 26,557
    mace1229 said:
    charlottesville predates BLM. if we are to argue that one violent incident begets another, which I don't think it does, then you'd have to recognize that the blame can't go to BLM. especially if the MAGATS saw what went on, you'd have to be borderline brain dead to "want" to engage in being beaten the fuck out of by police for peacefully protesting, which is what happened in many, many incidents. 

    suggesting there was some conscious decision by a bunch of MAGATS that "well, the blacks got away with it, so can we" is again, absurd. 
    I don't think there was some secret meeting where they had that discussion. But it's human behavior. You don't think when one thing is allowed and accepted for months, it becomes the norm? There is no need for a secret meeting or discussion about it. No one saw the consequence of repeatedly calling this a peaceful protest and allowing it to continue and setting it as the bar but me?  You don't need a conscious decision to make that happen.

    I'm saying I don't think that, the moment those MAGATS starting storming the capitol, that in the back of their mind they were thinking it was now ok because of BLM. 

    I just think mob mentality is a human behaviour, not mob mentality because of previous mob mentality. 

    And I still believe, and most everyone else, that if those MAGATS were black, they would be have been shot on the spot. 
    (Track 10 of The Headstones' Nickels For Your Nightmares)


  • Merkin BallerMerkin Baller Posts: 5,628
    edited January 8
    The blame for what happened on Wednesday is on Trump and those who supported and enabled him, full stop. 

    This isn't complicated. 

    The rest is all bullshit excuses.

  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon HeadstoniaPosts: 26,557
    charlottesville predates BLM. if we are to argue that one violent incident begets another, which I don't think it does, then you'd have to recognize that the blame can't go to BLM. especially if the MAGATS saw what went on, you'd have to be borderline brain dead to "want" to engage in being beaten the fuck out of by police for peacefully protesting, which is what happened in many, many incidents. 

    suggesting there was some conscious decision by a bunch of MAGATS that "well, the blacks got away with it, so can we" is again, absurd. 
    To be historically accurate BLM came about in 2013 in the wake of zimmerman being found innocent. It became well known after the riots in Ferguson, MO.

    White supremacists didn't become emboldened until they had people in the white house.

    As for the MAGAts they had the thumbs up from their leader to attack the Capitol.
    i was more referring to the summer riots of 2020. 
    (Track 10 of The Headstones' Nickels For Your Nightmares)


  • what dreamswhat dreams Posts: 1,714
    The MAGATS have been organizing this for months, and laying the groundwork for years. Follow Malcolm Nance, a former intelligence officer who has been tracking these groups on the web. This was not a reaction to George Floyd. That's a freaking excuse drummed up in the mainstream media
  • Halifax2TheMaxHalifax2TheMax Posts: 28,019
    Someone is having difficulty with the concept of "equal justice under the law."
    09/15/1998, Mansfield, MA; 08/29/00 08/30/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/29/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield, MA; 08/18/08, O2 London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont; 07/02/2012, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/04/2012 & 07/05/2012, Berlin, Germany; 07/07/2012, Stockholm, Sweden; 09/30/2012, Missoula, MT; 07/16/2013, London, Ont; 07/19/2013, Chicago, IL; 10/15/2013 & 10/16/2013, Worcester, MA; 10/21/2013 & 10/22/2013, Philadelphia, PA; 10/25/2013, Hartford, CT; 11/29/2013, Portland, OR; 11/30/2013, Spokane, WA; 12/04/2013, Vancouver, BC; 12/06/2013, Seattle, WA; 10/03/2014, St. Louis. MO; 10/22/2014, Denver, CO; 10/26/2015, New York, NY; 04/23/2016, New Orleans, LA; 04/28/2016 & 04/29/2016, Philadelphia, PA; 05/01/2016 & 05/02/2016, New York, NY; 05/08/2016, Ottawa, Ont.; 05/10/2016 & 05/12/2016, Toronto, Ont.; 08/05/2016 & 08/07/2016, Boston, MA; 08/20/2016 & 08/22/2016, Chicago, IL; 07/01/2018, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/03/2018, Krakow, Poland; 07/05/2018, Berlin, Germany; 09/02/2018 & 09/04/2018, Boston, MA;

    "If you're looking down on someone, it better be to extend them a hand to lift them up."

    Libtardaplorable©. And proud of it.

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  • Merkin BallerMerkin Baller Posts: 5,628
    From Heather Cox-Richardson's newsletter this morning: 

    "The disparity in treatment of yesterday’s rioters and Black Lives Matter protesters reflects the reality that authorities treat protesters differently according to their perceived political identification. FiveThirtyEight’s Maggie Koerth interviewed Roudabeh Kishi, whose research team tracked police violence in the U.S. from May 1 to November 28, 2020, and Koerth writes that authorities were “more than twice as likely to attempt to break up and disperse a left-wing protest than a right-wing one.” When they did intervene, they used force 51% of the time for the left and only 34% of the time for the right."

    https://heathercoxrichardson.substack.com/p/january-7-2021

  • BentleyspopBentleyspop Craft Beer Brewery, ColoradoPosts: 8,824
    The blame for what happened on Wednesday is on Trump and those who supported and enabled him, full stop. 

    This isn't complicated. 

    The rest is all bullshit excuses.
    You nailed it

    Everyone who advises him, believes him, enables him, follows him, posts in support of him on liberal bands message board, votes for him is complicit.
  • cutzcutz Posts: 10,126




    image






  • Merkin BallerMerkin Baller Posts: 5,628
    cutz said:




    image






    Doesn't apply to Wednesday though, those people were Patriotz 

  • F Me In The BrainF Me In The Brain this knows everybody from other commetsPosts: 24,234
    Would have better if he was pretending to be driving down the highway while filming.

    Note -- not actually to be driving down the highway.  :lol:     

    The love he receives is the love that is saved
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