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  • MayDay10
    MayDay10 Posts: 11,853
    edited September 2020
    Was Brady ever a big 'stretch the field' guy?  Never seemed like a great athlete as far as all the superlatives.  His success was always attributed for 'doing his homework' and 'reading the defense', etc.... and I think that means a little more in New England based on how they push the envelope/rules on acquiring information and paying attention to every detail.   It is basically 'guessing' which defense is there with unrealistic accuracy and either throwing the quick slant to Welker/Edelman for zone, throwing the out/seam to Gronk/Moss for man, and running a counter/screen to beat the blitz.
    Post edited by MayDay10 on
  • Poncier
    Poncier Posts: 17,886
    MayDay10 said:
    Was Brady ever a big 'stretch the field' guy?  Never seemed like a great athlete as far as all the superlatives.  His success was always attributed for 'doing his homework' and 'reading the defense', etc.... and I think that means a little more in New England based on how they push the envelope/rules on acquiring information and paying attention to every detail.   It is basically 'guessing' which defense is there with unrealistic accuracy and either throwing the quick slant to Welker/Edelman for zone, throwing the out/seam to Gronk/Moss for man, and running a counter/screen to beat the blitz.
    2007 he stretched the field plenty with Moss.
    And he actually was taking more deep shots the past few years than much of his career, just not with great success as the receiving corps hasn't been filled with burners.
    But generally the Pats' scheme is more reliant on intermediate stuff in the middle of the field. 
    This weekend we rock Portland
  • Glorified KC
    Glorified KC KCMO Native Posts: 2,814
    Brady also didn't have a preseason to work with this offense.  The jury is out for me on the guy, but I think there was more to his success than the system surrounding him in NE.  For most of his career in NE, the skill positions were average at best.
    I wish I was a sacrifice, but somehow still lived on.
  • Poncier
    Poncier Posts: 17,886
    Labelling Brady or any QB a "system QB" is silly.
    They are all by definition system QBs, cause each team runs it own offensive system.
    Joe Montana was a system QB, he ran Bill Walsh's west coast offense.
    Anyone who tries to denigrate Brady's accomplishments by saying he was just a product of the system doesn't understand what they're watching (or Wobbing).
    This weekend we rock Portland
  • MayDay10
    MayDay10 Posts: 11,853
    By system, I mainly mean the Patriots' infrastructure and the ability to play for Belichick's franchise.  Matt Cassell won like 11 games in a season there.  

    Brady was good enough to execute it.  Not everyone could do that.  He also played with ice in his veins during many pressure packed moments and games.  Sure.  However, if Brady was drafted by most other NFL teams, I really don't think he amounts to much. IMO all NFL QBs with some physical exceptions (p manning, favre, rodgers, elway, roth? etc) are reliant on their franchise and coach.  Look at the QBs of a few years ago.  You had Mayfield, Rosen, and Darnold who get cast into disastrous situations, yet were considered the safest, most pro-ready QBs.  Lamar Jackson and Josh Allen both inherited spots with much better coaching, continuity, and infrastructure.  Those guys are the ones most accomplished so-far and really appear like they will have staying power.  
    Id say Mahomes might be another one, at least to get to where he is now.  He was gifted a great situation and great coach.  He got to sit behind a pro's pro for a year.  Then eased in with an embarrassment of riches in offensive weapons and now he has become who he is.  What if the Jets drafted Mahomes?  The Bills werent ready yet and probably would have had to start him year one with an awful cast for a few seasons.  Buffalo traded out of the pick

    Belichick has been a step ahead of the rest of the NFL in so many ways over the past 20+ years, even going back 30 years when he had his players lay on top of Bills' players and faking injuries to halt the no-huddle offense.
  • The Juggler
    The Juggler Posts: 49,594
    The system thing is ridiculous. Not as ridiculous as people claiming a week 1 win verse the Dolphins proves anything though. lol
    www.myspace.com
  • Cliffy6745
    Cliffy6745 Posts: 34,026
    System QB
  • Glorified KC
    Glorified KC KCMO Native Posts: 2,814
    I would dispute Mahomes being a "system" QB (yep, call me a homer).  I am sure a lot of "systems" would love to have him as the QB.
    I wish I was a sacrifice, but somehow still lived on.
  • DewieCox
    DewieCox Posts: 11,432
    The thing with the Pats is they were stacked in every other facet even when Brady had shit for skill players. Really “shit” is an overstatement. They were lacking in HoF material but tons of depth. They’d have 8 guys racking up their offensive yards instead of 3 and always great secondary and lines. Coaching was absolutely unreal aside from the few times he climbed up their own asses.

     When they tried to sell out and got  him some weapons, other holes surfaced. Nature of the game and realistically Could’ve cost them a ring or 2. 
  • Cliffy6745
    Cliffy6745 Posts: 34,026
    Is Kirk herbstreet doing nfl now?
  • Ledbetterman10
    Ledbetterman10 Posts: 16,994
    Cliffy6745 said:
    Is Kirk herbstreet doing nfl now?
    No it’s just because of the duel week 1 Monday night games that he and Fowler are doing this game. 
    2000: Camden 1, 2003: Philly, State College, Camden 1, MSG 2, Hershey, 2004: Reading, 2005: Philly, 2006: Camden 1, 2, East Rutherford 1, 2007: Lollapalooza, 2008: Camden 1, Washington D.C., MSG 1, 2, 2009: Philly 1, 2, 3, 4, 2010: Bristol, MSG 2, 2011: PJ20 1, 2, 2012: Made In America, 2013: Brooklyn 2, Philly 2, 2014: Denver, 2015: Global Citizen Festival, 2016: Philly 2, Fenway 1, 2018: Fenway 1, 2, 2021: Sea. Hear. Now. 2022: Camden, 2024: Philly 2, 2025: Pittsburgh 1

    Pearl Jam bootlegs:
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  • The Juggler
    The Juggler Posts: 49,594
    DewieCox said:
    The thing with the Pats is they were stacked in every other facet even when Brady had shit for skill players. Really “shit” is an overstatement. They were lacking in HoF material but tons of depth. They’d have 8 guys racking up their offensive yards instead of 3 and always great secondary and lines. Coaching was absolutely unreal aside from the few times he climbed up their own asses.

     When they tried to sell out and got  him some weapons, other holes surfaced. Nature of the game and realistically Could’ve cost them a ring or 2. 
    This is a great point. That team has always been able to pick up other team's scraps and turn them into contributing players on a winning team. The coaching has always been off the charts. Still is. 
    www.myspace.com
  • F Me In The Brain
    F Me In The Brain this knows everybody from other commets Posts: 31,809
    edited September 2020
    They are so good as a team.  
    Love their call.
    (Herbie & Fowler)
    Post edited by F Me In The Brain on
    The love he receives is the love that is saved
  • Merkin Baller
    Merkin Baller Posts: 12,773

    It was Belichick AND Brady, I genuinely don’t think one accomplishes all that without the other.

    Regarding Matt Cassell winning 11 games, that was with a team that literally ran the table in the prior regular season. 11 games to most other teams would be great, for that NE team it was 5 more losses than the year before. 


  • MayDay10
    MayDay10 Posts: 11,853
    Glorified KC said:
    I would dispute Mahomes being a "system" QB (yep, call me a homer).  I am sure a lot of "systems" would love to have him as the QB.
    I didnt say/mean he was a system QB.... but he was a huge beneficiary of the location he was drafted to.  The luxury of sitting a season and the mentoring, along with grabbing the steering wheel with a ton of weapons in place is huge.  It allowed him to develop into who he is today.  Lamar Jackson is another one, going to a solid location in Baltimore with a solid, tenured, visionary coach.  Lamar Jackson goes to the Raiders or "Football Team" or the Jets, he might be on his way out by now.

    I think there are a lot of potential QBs who fall overboard when they are scooped up by bad teams who have terrible team culture, coaching turnover, etc. T
  • Poncier
    Poncier Posts: 17,886
    Merkin Baller said:

    It was Belichick AND Brady, I genuinely don’t think one accomplishes all that without the other.

    Regarding Matt Cassell winning 11 games, that was with a team that literally ran the table in the prior regular season. 11 games to most other teams would be great, for that NE team it was 5 more losses than the year before. 


    Exactly
    This weekend we rock Portland
  • Ledbetterman10
    Ledbetterman10 Posts: 16,994
    MayDay10 said:
    Glorified KC said:
    I would dispute Mahomes being a "system" QB (yep, call me a homer).  I am sure a lot of "systems" would love to have him as the QB.
    I didnt say/mean he was a system QB.... but he was a huge beneficiary of the location he was drafted to.  The luxury of sitting a season and the mentoring, along with grabbing the steering wheel with a ton of weapons in place is huge.  It allowed him to develop into who he is today.  Lamar Jackson is another one, going to a solid location in Baltimore with a solid, tenured, visionary coach.  Lamar Jackson goes to the Raiders or "Football Team" or the Jets, he might be on his way out by now.

    I think there are a lot of potential QBs who fall overboard when they are scooped up by bad teams who have terrible team culture, coaching turnover, etc. T
    Roethlisberger is an example of that. He really should have been drafted by the Browns. They needed a QB that year (they had an about-to-be-washed-up Jeff Garcia), were picking 8th, Roethlisberger is from Ohio, had a great college career in Ohio, and had a good workout with the Browns from what I've read. But they're the Browns, so they picked the wrong guy like they always do. Roethlisberger's good, so I doubt he'd be an complete NFL failure if the Browns picked him. But he'd last a few years there, flame out like everyone does, and hope to latch on with another team. He wouldn't have two rings and be on his way to the Hall of Fame like he is with the Steelers. 
    2000: Camden 1, 2003: Philly, State College, Camden 1, MSG 2, Hershey, 2004: Reading, 2005: Philly, 2006: Camden 1, 2, East Rutherford 1, 2007: Lollapalooza, 2008: Camden 1, Washington D.C., MSG 1, 2, 2009: Philly 1, 2, 3, 4, 2010: Bristol, MSG 2, 2011: PJ20 1, 2, 2012: Made In America, 2013: Brooklyn 2, Philly 2, 2014: Denver, 2015: Global Citizen Festival, 2016: Philly 2, Fenway 1, 2018: Fenway 1, 2, 2021: Sea. Hear. Now. 2022: Camden, 2024: Philly 2, 2025: Pittsburgh 1

    Pearl Jam bootlegs:
    http://wegotshit.blogspot.com
  • MayDay10
    MayDay10 Posts: 11,853
    Ledbetterman10 said:
    MayDay10 said:
    Glorified KC said:
    I would dispute Mahomes being a "system" QB (yep, call me a homer).  I am sure a lot of "systems" would love to have him as the QB.
    I didnt say/mean he was a system QB.... but he was a huge beneficiary of the location he was drafted to.  The luxury of sitting a season and the mentoring, along with grabbing the steering wheel with a ton of weapons in place is huge.  It allowed him to develop into who he is today.  Lamar Jackson is another one, going to a solid location in Baltimore with a solid, tenured, visionary coach.  Lamar Jackson goes to the Raiders or "Football Team" or the Jets, he might be on his way out by now.

    I think there are a lot of potential QBs who fall overboard when they are scooped up by bad teams who have terrible team culture, coaching turnover, etc. T
    Roethlisberger is an example of that. He really should have been drafted by the Browns. They needed a QB that year (they had an about-to-be-washed-up Jeff Garcia), were picking 8th, Roethlisberger is from Ohio, had a great college career in Ohio, and had a good workout with the Browns from what I've read. But they're the Browns, so they picked the wrong guy like they always do. Roethlisberger's good, so I doubt he'd be an complete NFL failure if the Browns picked him. But he'd last a few years there, flame out like everyone does, and hope to latch on with another team. He wouldn't have two rings and be on his way to the Hall of Fame like he is with the Steelers. 
    Exactly.

    The Bills were right there too close  for Rothlisberger and even Rodgers.  They would have ruined either one of them.  They drafted a highly skilled JP Losman who flamed out within a few years.  I wonder what would happen if Losman went to the Steelers and Rothlisberger to the Bills?  I dont know, but its interesting.  

  • Glorified KC
    Glorified KC KCMO Native Posts: 2,814
    MayDay10 said:
    Glorified KC said:
    I would dispute Mahomes being a "system" QB (yep, call me a homer).  I am sure a lot of "systems" would love to have him as the QB.
    I didnt say/mean he was a system QB.... but he was a huge beneficiary of the location he was drafted to.  The luxury of sitting a season and the mentoring, along with grabbing the steering wheel with a ton of weapons in place is huge.  It allowed him to develop into who he is today.  Lamar Jackson is another one, going to a solid location in Baltimore with a solid, tenured, visionary coach.  Lamar Jackson goes to the Raiders or "Football Team" or the Jets, he might be on his way out by now.

    I think there are a lot of potential QBs who fall overboard when they are scooped up by bad teams who have terrible team culture, coaching turnover, etc. T
    There is definitely a benefit to being drafted into a club who has a long-tenured coaching staff, along with an offensive minded HC or innovative OC who is savvy enough to build a system around the skills of their QBs.  I could argue Lamar Jackson is a system QB, because I have a tough time believing he could thrive in a different offense than the one Greg Roman has put him in.

    I wish I was a sacrifice, but somehow still lived on.
  • DewieCox
    DewieCox Posts: 11,432
    Gostkowski is a system kicker.

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