The Democratic Candidates

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  • Posts: 31,471
    benjs said:
    show previous quotes
    Do you even bother reading what I write? I explicitly said I'm not here stating that I support one healthcare program over another, but that I'm asking you to post information fairly. You never gave a source for your chart. Your chart has a title that has bias. Your chart is based on total spend when many nations rely heavily on insurance to cover portions of that (which should be removed - but still include the insurance cost to consumers). Your chart doesn't consider how costs scale across populations and geographies. Your chart doesn't subdivide to classes/rural vs. urban splits/races to try to understand what's going on (exclusively trying to judge - always a red flag for me). Your chart doesn't account for the fact that costs for rare drugs are far higher than commodity drugs, meaning there is implicit bias in comparing a larger population to a smaller one. And finally, you keep doing this shit! When you post a barrage of YouTube videos and graphs like this, why would anyone trust your opinion?

    As for your 'now that you're not ignoring me' comment - I read almost all of your posts. I respond to the ones that I think are worth responding to (really no different to anyone else on here). Only difference is now I don't have to scroll through as many silly one-liners or gifs about why Bernie Sanders is the messiah and the rest of politicians are Satan reincarnated.

    Feel free to elaborate where you still have confusion. I hope I've shown you already that at least 80% of what I said is not crap, just stuff you'd like to ignore. 
    Name another country that can be compared to the US?
    "Mostly I think that people react sensitively because they know you’ve got a point"
  • Toronto, ON Posts: 9,367
    Spiritual_Chaos said:
    show previous quotes
    Name another country that can be compared to the US?
    I know you like to distil things to binary, but that's not how this works; you clearly don't understand statistics, polling for authenticity, or how to evaluate or correct bias if you're asking me that question. I don't need Sweden to be put next to a country identical in way, shape and form to Sweden to compare it - but I need to evaluate its characteristics and weigh facts differently. That holds true for any comparison - you need to put work in to approximate apple-to-apple comparisons. 

    The point is though, I couldn't begin to say whether the graph was generated fairly, because upon my third request, you still refuse to tell anyone here where you got it from. That wreaks of disingenuous behaviour.
    '05 - TO, '06 - TO 1, '08 - NYC 1 & 2, '09 - TO, Chi 1 & 2, '10 - Buffalo, NYC 1 & 2, '11 - TO 1 & 2, Hamilton, '13 - Buffalo, Brooklyn 1 & 2, '15 - Global Citizen, '16 - TO 1 & 2, Chi 2

    EV
    Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
  • Posts: 31,471
    edited August 2019
    benjs said:
    show previous quotes
    I know you like to distil things to binary, but that's not how this works; you clearly don't understand statistics, polling for authenticity, or how to evaluate or correct bias if you're asking me that question. I don't need Sweden to be put next to a country identical in way, shape and form to Sweden to compare it - but I need to evaluate its characteristics and weigh facts differently. That holds true for any comparison - you need to put work in to approximate apple-to-apple comparisons. 

    The point is though, I couldn't begin to say whether the graph was generated fairly, because upon my third request, you still refuse to tell anyone here where you got it from. That wreaks of disingenuous behaviour.
    I gave you another graph, with a source, showing the same thing. So chill out with your paintbrush and your narrative-creation.

    So, what you are saying is no country can be compared to the US (with its healthcare spending being DOUBLE)?
    "Mostly I think that people react sensitively because they know you’ve got a point"
  • Toronto, ON Posts: 9,367
    Spiritual_Chaos said:
    show previous quotes
    I gave you another graph, with a source, showing the same thing. So chill out with your paintbrush and your narrative-creation.

    So, what you are saying is no country can be compared to the US (with its healthcare spending being DOUBLE)?
    SC, look in this nested thread. There's very clearly no link to where that graph is sourced from (fact, not narrative).
    '05 - TO, '06 - TO 1, '08 - NYC 1 & 2, '09 - TO, Chi 1 & 2, '10 - Buffalo, NYC 1 & 2, '11 - TO 1 & 2, Hamilton, '13 - Buffalo, Brooklyn 1 & 2, '15 - Global Citizen, '16 - TO 1 & 2, Chi 2

    EV
    Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
  • Toronto, ON Posts: 9,367
    Spiritual_Chaos said:
    show previous quotes
    I gave you another graph, with a source, showing the same thing. So chill out with your paintbrush and your narrative-creation.

    So, what you are saying is no country can be compared to the US (with its healthcare spending being DOUBLE)?
    And to answer your second question - I'll reiterate exactly what I said before. You need to put work in to approximate apple-to-apple comparisons. This is the art of fair polling is understanding the factors and the way one population functionally differs from another, so that when you compare them, you account for those realities. Without insights to how these numbers were produced, they are not worth anything, no matter how extreme the differences appear. I too can put five different-length bars on a piece of paper and put numbers beside them and claim facts. I hope people wouldn't believe me in that situation either.
    '05 - TO, '06 - TO 1, '08 - NYC 1 & 2, '09 - TO, Chi 1 & 2, '10 - Buffalo, NYC 1 & 2, '11 - TO 1 & 2, Hamilton, '13 - Buffalo, Brooklyn 1 & 2, '15 - Global Citizen, '16 - TO 1 & 2, Chi 2

    EV
    Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
  • Posts: 31,471
    benjs said:
    show previous quotes
    SC, look in this nested thread. There's very clearly no link to where that graph is sourced from (fact, not narrative).
    Page 1272 in the "Donald Trump" thread. 
    "Mostly I think that people react sensitively because they know you’ve got a point"
  • Toronto, ON Posts: 9,367
    One more thing, SC, if you're referring to that other graph you posted several pages back, that wasn't what I asked. If you're going to use the "twice as much on health care" as a talking point, and you extracted the talking point from this current graph, it's this current graph I would appreciate a source for. I thought that would've been clear.
    '05 - TO, '06 - TO 1, '08 - NYC 1 & 2, '09 - TO, Chi 1 & 2, '10 - Buffalo, NYC 1 & 2, '11 - TO 1 & 2, Hamilton, '13 - Buffalo, Brooklyn 1 & 2, '15 - Global Citizen, '16 - TO 1 & 2, Chi 2

    EV
    Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
  • Toronto, ON Posts: 9,367
    Anyways, I'll check in later today - time to start getting ready for work. Have a good one, everybody!
    '05 - TO, '06 - TO 1, '08 - NYC 1 & 2, '09 - TO, Chi 1 & 2, '10 - Buffalo, NYC 1 & 2, '11 - TO 1 & 2, Hamilton, '13 - Buffalo, Brooklyn 1 & 2, '15 - Global Citizen, '16 - TO 1 & 2, Chi 2

    EV
    Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
  • Posts: 31,471
    edited August 2019
    benjs said:
    show previous quotes
    And to answer your second question - I'll reiterate exactly what I said before. You need to put work in to approximate apple-to-apple comparisons. This is the art of fair polling is understanding the factors and the way one population functionally differs from another, so that when you compare them, you account for those realities. Without insights to how these numbers were produced, they are not worth anything, no matter how extreme the differences appear. I too can put five different-length bars on a piece of paper and put numbers beside them and claim facts. I hope people wouldn't believe me in that situation either.
    "Haha" Okey.

    I will say the same when someone says Ten is a bigger album than Riot Act

    "We can't have these apple-to-apple comparions, We have to look at the cultural landscape, the changing of the music industry, the arrival of the mickey mouse club pop scene, so Riot Act selling nothing compared to Ten can actually be seen as selling DOUBLE the amounts of Ten, therefore You Are can be seen as a bigger single than Evenflow and should be played at every show instead of Evenflow."
    Post edited by Spiritual_Chaos on
    "Mostly I think that people react sensitively because they know you’ve got a point"
  • Posts: 16,836
    Spiritual_Chaos said:
    show previous quotes
    Just giving some context.

    Maybe it's time to leave the "moderates" behind and whatever their reasons are for staying "moderates" if some change is actually to happen - for the american people and the world.
    Yeah cause the political climate is sooooo good this way. Moderates are for moving forward. Just not only in the way 1 party thinks. 

    hippiemom = goodness
  • Posts: 31,471
    edited August 2019
    cincybearcat said:
    show previous quotes
    Yeah cause the political climate is sooooo good this way. Moderates are for moving forward. Just not only in the way 1 party thinks. 

    Doesn't seem much has been that moved forward at all?

    Are you still allowed to beat your kids over there?

    One example, I bet (just a theory) would have been gone if the US would have allowed itself to lean more left (as in e.g classic social democratic) through the years. And I bet the Warrens and the Bernies of the US would push for that being made illegal at a faster pace, than moderates while kids keep being beaten legally.

    (And now I'm speaking of american moderates, and not the Swedish type of centrists. Which would be a bit more left-leaning (Social-liberal) with our political spectrum not being tilted as far right and as much focus on egocentrism.)

    So why be a "moderate", when you are free to not be one and can have a look of your country. Would be my question. The world is burning.
    Post edited by Spiritual_Chaos on
    "Mostly I think that people react sensitively because they know you’ve got a point"
  • New Jersey Posts: 29,117
    Piggy backing off of the article Russel posted yesterday:

    When did Barack Obama become a Republican?

    https://www.cnn.com/2019/08/01/opinions/when-did-barack-obama-become-a-republican-avlon/index.html

    (CNN)When did Barack Obama become a Republican?

    I'm asking because, according to some folks on the debate stage in Detroit, support for policy positions like the public option, comprehensive immigration reform and trade agreements are now dismissed as "Republican talking points." The same applies to asking practical questions about how proposals would be passed or paid for. That's not only a sign of how far left Democrats are moving but also a warning about how liberals risk reinforcing Donald Trump's re-election playbook.
    Of course, all this is absurd. Obama is the Democratic Party's most popular ex-President in living memory. Despite Republicans' relentless and often unhinged attacks on him as socialist and worse, it's now clear that he was a responsible center-left leader. 
    After inheriting the worst fiscal crisis since the Great Depression, Obama actually reduced the deficit in his second term and backed bipartisan reforms on stubborn issues like immigration. Many of his policy outreaches to Republicans were rebuffed, and it's because of the reflexive demonization of Obama that many Democrats today are saying that it's useless to reach out to Republicans. I understand their frustration. But still, the ability to work with Republicans is the third quality that a CNN poll shows Democrats want most in their next president, the first being an ability to defeat Donald Trump. And that requires more than a purely play-to-the-base strategy that ignores independent swing voters.
    Let's not forget that passing Obamacare was a massive task. Obama proposed a public option as a more practical and popular alternative to the single-payer system that very few Democrats supported just a decade ago.

    Clink the link to read the rest of the article.  
    I'll ride the wave where it takes me......
  • Posts: 30,881
    mcgruff10 said:
    Piggy backing off of the article Russel posted yesterday:

    When did Barack Obama become a Republican?

    https://www.cnn.com/2019/08/01/opinions/when-did-barack-obama-become-a-republican-avlon/index.html

    (CNN)When did Barack Obama become a Republican?

    I'm asking because, according to some folks on the debate stage in Detroit, support for policy positions like the public option, comprehensive immigration reform and trade agreements are now dismissed as "Republican talking points." The same applies to asking practical questions about how proposals would be passed or paid for. That's not only a sign of how far left Democrats are moving but also a warning about how liberals risk reinforcing Donald Trump's re-election playbook.
    Of course, all this is absurd. Obama is the Democratic Party's most popular ex-President in living memory. Despite Republicans' relentless and often unhinged attacks on him as socialist and worse, it's now clear that he was a responsible center-left leader. 
    After inheriting the worst fiscal crisis since the Great Depression, Obama actually reduced the deficit in his second term and backed bipartisan reforms on stubborn issues like immigration. Many of his policy outreaches to Republicans were rebuffed, and it's because of the reflexive demonization of Obama that many Democrats today are saying that it's useless to reach out to Republicans. I understand their frustration. But still, the ability to work with Republicans is the third quality that a CNN poll shows Democrats want most in their next president, the first being an ability to defeat Donald Trump. And that requires more than a purely play-to-the-base strategy that ignores independent swing voters.
    Let's not forget that passing Obamacare was a massive task. Obama proposed a public option as a more practical and popular alternative to the single-payer system that very few Democrats supported just a decade ago.

    Clink the link to read the rest of the article.  
    The question is whether these candidates are actually reflective of the voters.  So far,  with Biden polling highest,  the answer appears to be "no". But as candidates drop,  and people move to their second choices, we'll know better.  
  • Posts: 16,836
    edited August 2019
    Spiritual_Chaos said:
    show previous quotes
    Doesn't seem much has been that moved forward at all?

    Are you still allowed to beat your kids over there?

    One example, I bet (just a theory) would have been gone if the US would have allowed itself to lean more left (as in e.g classic social democratic) through the years. And I bet the Warrens and the Bernies of the US would push for that being made illegal at a faster pace, than moderates while kids keep being beaten legally.

    (And now I'm speaking of american moderates, and not the Swedish type of centrists. Which would be a bit more left-leaning (Social-liberal) with our political spectrum not being tilted as far right and as much focus on egocentrism.)

    So why be a "moderate", when you are free to not be one and can have a look of your country. Would be my question. The world is burning.
    I think you need to learn to read and understand.  It's like talking to a child waiting for their turn to speak next.  You make no fucking sense.

    I'm talking about the parties moving to their poles...away from the middle.  You "Do you beat your kids" 
    Post edited by cincybearcat on
    hippiemom = goodness
  • Posts: 7,879
    edited August 2019
    Spiritual_Chaos said:
    show previous quotes
    With those two questions of yours... I must ask - could you read and understand the graph I posted?

    So, first answer this question - what does that graph tell you?

    And after that, I can answer your question. Because I don't really understand why your question even would be asked if you can read the graph.

    So lets take it in the right order.


    Your answer should be thank you very much generous american taxpayer for making my Euro healthcare cheaper 

    Anerican big pharma develops life saving drugs, charges Americans thru the nose, then once billions are made, sells it cheaper globally.

    The misconception that folks like mcgruff10 have about prohibitive cost for MFA is a big problem for dems and like I said last night, I blame Bernie for doing a poor job explaining that we need a conversion of employer funding from health insurance to salary.

    With that and cost care reduction, it become obvious "who is paying for this" is malarkey.

    But we need public option first. If that works then maybe MFA. If bernie or liz win the nom trump will pound away at them.



      
  • Posts: 31,471
    edited August 2019
    Lerxst1992 said:
    show previous quotes


    Your answer should be thank you very much generous american taxpayer for making my Euro healthcare cheaper 

    Anerican big pharma develops life saving drugs, charges Americans thru the nose, then once billions are made, sells it cheaper globally.

    The misconception that folks like mcgruff10 have about prohibitive cost for MFA is a big problem for dems and like I said last night, I blame Bernie for doing a poor job explaining that we need a conversion of employer funding from health insurance to salary.

    With that and cost care reduction, it become obvious "who is paying for this" is malarkey.

    But we need public option first. If that works then maybe MFA. If bernie or liz win the nom trump will pound away at them.



      
    When did healthcare turn into "drugs" ?
    Post edited by Spiritual_Chaos on
    "Mostly I think that people react sensitively because they know you’ve got a point"
  • Posts: 31,471
    edited August 2019
    benjs said:
    show previous quotes
    And to answer your second question - I'll reiterate exactly what I said before. You need to put work in to approximate apple-to-apple comparisons. This is the art of fair polling is understanding the factors and the way one population functionally differs from another, so that when you compare them, you account for those realities. Without insights to how these numbers were produced, they are not worth anything, no matter how extreme the differences appear. I too can put five different-length bars on a piece of paper and put numbers beside them and claim facts. I hope people wouldn't believe me in that situation either.
    One last question, 

    on here a while back someone (american) said that his wife needed an aspirin (or similiar) at the hospital while being in labor. And that was added to their bill for the visit, the cost I think was 80-100 dollar for that pill. 

    In Sweden, that would have been given for no charge and the actual charge of it for the taxpayers would be the cost of the pill (whatever Aspirin cost per pill, in Sweden or the US).

    And I understand that it is impossible to compare the US because it is the apple to every other countries oranges. 

    But will I find an answer to that difference in health care cost in your block of text above?
    Post edited by Spiritual_Chaos on
    "Mostly I think that people react sensitively because they know you’ve got a point"
  • Posts: 16,994
    Spiritual_Chaos said:
    show previous quotes
    One last question, 

    on here a while back someone (american) said that his wife needed an aspirin (or similiar) at the hospital while being in labor. And that was added to their bill for the visit, the cost I think was 80-100 dollar for that pill. 

    In Sweden, that would have been given for no charge and the actual charge of it for the taxpayers would be the cost of the pill (whatever Aspirin cost per pill, in Sweden or the US).

    And I understand that it is impossible to compare the US because it is the apple to every other countries oranges. 

    But will I find an answer to that difference in health care cost in your block of text above?
    I find that unbelievable. Not calling you a liar because hell, maybe someone really did say that. But you can get a bottle of 500 aspirin pills for like $5. 

    Then again, when you're in a hospital and at the will of insurance companies, I guess anything can happen. 
    2000: Camden 1, 2003: Philly, State College, Camden 1, MSG 2, Hershey, 2004: Reading, 2005: Philly, 2006: Camden 1, 2, East Rutherford 1, 2007: Lollapalooza, 2008: Camden 1, Washington D.C., MSG 1, 2, 2009: Philly 1, 2, 3, 4, 2010: Bristol, MSG 2, 2011: PJ20 1, 2, 2012: Made In America, 2013: Brooklyn 2, Philly 2, 2014: Denver, 2015: Global Citizen Festival, 2016: Philly 2, Fenway 1, 2018: Fenway 1, 2, 2021: Sea. Hear. Now. 2022: Camden, 2024: Philly 2, 2025: Pittsburgh 1

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  • Posts: 11,854
    edited August 2019
    I got a splint once in a hospital that fell apart 2 hours later and they charged me $900
    Post edited by MayDay10 on
  • Posts: 31,471
    edited August 2019
    MayDay10 said:
    I got a splint once in a hospital that fell apart 2 hours later and they charged me $900
    That's, from what I have learnt in this thread, just because Sweden is taking a free ride on american pharmaceutical companies research costs.
    "Mostly I think that people react sensitively because they know you’ve got a point"
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