The Democratic Candidates
Comments
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The Juggler said:
Agreed.jeffbr said:
It is. They are eating their own instead of focusing on the most important aspect - beating Trump. I understand they're each trying to differentiate themselves but the last 2 nights were nothing but Dems shooting each other, and last night was a total assault on Obama. I thought I was watching the GOP debates at times.mcgruff10 said:
Former Chicago Mayor Rahm Emanuel, who served as the first White House chief to Obama, said Democratic presidential candidates were being extraordinarily short-sighted and wrong-headed by assailing the Obama administration's record, rather than trying to build upon it.
This is exactly the problem. Obama was popular and while there are parts of his legacy that weren't necessarily stellar, the Dems need to run on a "return to normalcy" which we experienced in the Obama era, rather than talk about all of the horrible things the Dems did under Obama/Biden. Trump must be super happy about the past couple of nights.
Part of the problem is the way the DNC set these debates up to have a bunch of lesser tier candidates who have zero shots of winning going up against the ones who actually do. Fucking DeBlasio was just tossing grenades during his two debates. Fuck him. He sucks.
Everyone would have been much better served seen Biden go up against Sanders, Warrnen, Harris, Buttigegehappoiueggie, and maybe a couple others during his two debates.
The DNC is trying to give the lessers a chance to climb up in the polls. Next time there will be far fewer debaters.
Giving the lessers about 7 minutes total talking time during a long debate and never knowing when its their turn to speak makes it extremely
challenging to shine.0 -
OnWis97 said:
I tend to agree with McGruff 1) there's no Obama in the mix and 2) it's amazing that there can't be one every cycle...it's amazing that Obama's practically a once-in-a-generation candidate.cincybearcat said:
I’d feel good voting for Pete or Amy. Someone else could stand out between now and Election Day. But as of now those are the only 2 that could get me to the polls based on them and not their opponentmcgruff10 said:
True but do any of them really stand out to you? I mean i absolutely loved Obama as a candidate. I was excited and proud to vote for him. These candidates? Yeah not too much. It was the same feeling for Hillary, I voted for her but I wasn't overly excited to think of her as the president.Gern Blansten said:
Disagree....any of them would be better than tRump.mcgruff10 said:The more I read and watch the more I realize that all the dem candidates are pretty damn shitty. Where is the next Obama? A country of 300 million plus and this is the best we have?
As a politically engaged person, yeah, you can vote for Amy. I'm from her state and she's smart and capable. But she's not going to bring people to the polls like Obama did. You mention Pete...he's the most Obama-like among them, but I don't think he quite has the appeal to the sometimes-apolitical that Obama did.
But to McGruff's point, most of them seem to be stumbling their way through and just as likely to turn people off as pull them in.
I feel like there was a time when Biden was actually kinda sharp-tongued and would have run up the score in the debates with a dolt like Trump. Well, if so, those days seem to be behind him.
Biden has never been attacked as a frontrunner from multiple leftists before this summer. He did better yesterday and will do better as the debate field shrinks.
Biden had an informal talk with the press today and he sounded excellent. That's a much better forum than having 19 debaters attack you over 2 nights.
I'm not sure we have seen any candidate encounter that challenge before (since DT was not perceived as a strong frontrunner when 10 Rs were debating last time).0 -
Agreed. Biden, Warren & Buddha do really well in small groups and diner type settings where people can see they’re genuine, self deprecating and not so crazy. The trick is to turn those glad handing moments into filled arenas with adoring crowds. It takes a lot of work, a well organized ground game and the ability to avoid major gaffes or getting ahead of any previously undisclosed negativity. Do that for the next six months and things will go well. Biden is capable but Warren might have a better ground game, at least in Iowa.Lerxst1992 said:OnWis97 said:
I tend to agree with McGruff 1) there's no Obama in the mix and 2) it's amazing that there can't be one every cycle...it's amazing that Obama's practically a once-in-a-generation candidate.cincybearcat said:
I’d feel good voting for Pete or Amy. Someone else could stand out between now and Election Day. But as of now those are the only 2 that could get me to the polls based on them and not their opponentmcgruff10 said:
True but do any of them really stand out to you? I mean i absolutely loved Obama as a candidate. I was excited and proud to vote for him. These candidates? Yeah not too much. It was the same feeling for Hillary, I voted for her but I wasn't overly excited to think of her as the president.Gern Blansten said:
Disagree....any of them would be better than tRump.mcgruff10 said:The more I read and watch the more I realize that all the dem candidates are pretty damn shitty. Where is the next Obama? A country of 300 million plus and this is the best we have?
As a politically engaged person, yeah, you can vote for Amy. I'm from her state and she's smart and capable. But she's not going to bring people to the polls like Obama did. You mention Pete...he's the most Obama-like among them, but I don't think he quite has the appeal to the sometimes-apolitical that Obama did.
But to McGruff's point, most of them seem to be stumbling their way through and just as likely to turn people off as pull them in.
I feel like there was a time when Biden was actually kinda sharp-tongued and would have run up the score in the debates with a dolt like Trump. Well, if so, those days seem to be behind him.
Biden has never been attacked as a frontrunner from multiple leftists before this summer. He did better yesterday and will do better as the debate field shrinks.
Biden had an informal talk with the press today and he sounded excellent. That's a much better forum than having 19 debaters attack you over 2 nights.
I'm not sure we have seen any candidate encounter that challenge before (since DT was not perceived as a strong frontrunner when 10 Rs were debating last time).
09/15/1998 & 09/16/1998, Mansfield, MA; 08/29/00 08/30/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/27/2008, Hartford; 06/28/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield; 08/18/2009, O2, London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont; 07/02/2012, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/04/2012 & 07/05/2012, Berlin, Germany; 07/07/2012, Stockholm, Sweden; 09/30/2012, Missoula, MT; 07/16/2013, London, Ont; 07/19/2013, Chicago, IL; 10/15/2013 & 10/16/2013, Worcester, MA; 10/21/2013 & 10/22/2013, Philadelphia, PA; 10/25/2013, Hartford, CT; 11/29/2013, Portland, OR; 11/30/2013, Spokane, WA; 12/04/2013, Vancouver, BC; 12/06/2013, Seattle, WA; 10/03/2014, St. Louis. MO; 10/22/2014, Denver, CO; 10/26/2015, New York, NY; 04/23/2016, New Orleans, LA; 04/28/2016 & 04/29/2016, Philadelphia, PA; 05/01/2016 & 05/02/2016, New York, NY; 05/08/2016, Ottawa, Ont.; 05/10/2016 & 05/12/2016, Toronto, Ont.; 08/05/2016 & 08/07/2016, Boston, MA; 08/20/2016 & 08/22/2016, Chicago, IL; 07/01/2018, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/03/2018, Krakow, Poland; 07/05/2018, Berlin, Germany; 09/02/2018 & 09/04/2018, Boston, MA; 09/08/2022, Toronto, Ont; 09/11/2022, New York, NY; 09/14/2022, Camden, NJ; 09/02/2023, St. Paul, MN; 05/04/2024 & 05/06/2024, Vancouver, BC; 05/10/2024, Portland, OR;
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@mcgruff10 I’m liking the following: Biden, Warren, Buddha, Harris, and Castro. And not necessarily in that order or who I like or want to win. Just that from what I’ve seen thus far, I think they’re capable and all but Biden have a future, particularly Buddha, Castro and Harris.09/15/1998 & 09/16/1998, Mansfield, MA; 08/29/00 08/30/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/27/2008, Hartford; 06/28/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield; 08/18/2009, O2, London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont; 07/02/2012, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/04/2012 & 07/05/2012, Berlin, Germany; 07/07/2012, Stockholm, Sweden; 09/30/2012, Missoula, MT; 07/16/2013, London, Ont; 07/19/2013, Chicago, IL; 10/15/2013 & 10/16/2013, Worcester, MA; 10/21/2013 & 10/22/2013, Philadelphia, PA; 10/25/2013, Hartford, CT; 11/29/2013, Portland, OR; 11/30/2013, Spokane, WA; 12/04/2013, Vancouver, BC; 12/06/2013, Seattle, WA; 10/03/2014, St. Louis. MO; 10/22/2014, Denver, CO; 10/26/2015, New York, NY; 04/23/2016, New Orleans, LA; 04/28/2016 & 04/29/2016, Philadelphia, PA; 05/01/2016 & 05/02/2016, New York, NY; 05/08/2016, Ottawa, Ont.; 05/10/2016 & 05/12/2016, Toronto, Ont.; 08/05/2016 & 08/07/2016, Boston, MA; 08/20/2016 & 08/22/2016, Chicago, IL; 07/01/2018, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/03/2018, Krakow, Poland; 07/05/2018, Berlin, Germany; 09/02/2018 & 09/04/2018, Boston, MA; 09/08/2022, Toronto, Ont; 09/11/2022, New York, NY; 09/14/2022, Camden, NJ; 09/02/2023, St. Paul, MN; 05/04/2024 & 05/06/2024, Vancouver, BC; 05/10/2024, Portland, OR;
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dignin said:
I believe Warren and Sanders are talking to those people.The Juggler said:cincybearcat said:
I’m more concerned.The Juggler said:I'm less confident about these democrats' chances than I was a month ago.
Mostly because
1) I now think Biden is a terrible candidate. Never liked the guy but thought he could win. He seems tired and like he doesn’t want to be there.
2) Dems keep moving left, which is away from me and moderates. So even if they win, I’m not going to like the result.
3) it seems like it’s a Biden/Sanders/Warren race at the moment at that is about as bad as it could get for me.
But yeah, overall, pretty disappointing if you're a moderate. They barely spent any time talking about the voters they need to win those most important 12-15 states last night.
But I do agree, if you are a moderate, the shift in the Democratic party would be disappointing.
The shift in both parties. Republicans just started soonerhippiemom = goodness0 -
Im not for M4A, but agree with you that Bernie doesn't sell it well. He preaches to the converted. As a moderate, I've never felt that he was trying to convince me, and what is politics but convincing others of your POV.Lerxst1992 said:
Yes. I think we have agreed on that in the past.mrussel1 said:
Couldn't you effectively lower the prices by allowing people to buy into Medicare, creating true competition for private insurers, without blowing up the whole system?Lerxst1992 said:mcgruff10 said:Pretty crazy to think:
While Trump’s $267 billion is bad, the Democrats’ plans are worse. We counted $297 billion proposed by Biden, $690 billion from Buttigieg, $3.8 trillion from Warren, $4 trillion from Sanders and $4.3 trillion from Harris. That would double what the entire federal government spends now.
https://townhall.com/columnists/johnstossel/2019/07/31/free-stuff-n2550923?fbclid=IwAR2mDPL1ppxW1SxG5wCKCP46VVRPdlJcrnluYyr6jAnXOMZSFe1IlX6mhD4
Here's the video just in case you don't feel like reading today:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G5odA8Gsmzs
Its actually even trickier than the wonky debates this week.
MFA is not free and will not include massive govt spending or an enormous tax
The trick is converting a sizable portion of the economy, what employers pay for healthcare, directly to worker salaries salaries. Pay us instead of our insurers.
If Bernie or Liz could do that, and then account for the lowering of the actual cost to provide care, the impact on our taxes would be minimal in theory
The reason I love Bernie but dont support him is he has done a terrible job communicating this. Too many Americans have a false perception on cost and I'll blame bernie for that because he has been talking about MFA healthcare the longest.
Forcing employers to turn money saved through employer matches into salary increases to net the cost to neutral for the inevitable tax increases feels much more difficult.
My biggest concern is quality of care if private hospitals turn into government entities. We have government hospitals in this country and the care is terrible, wait times atrocious, etc. The VA is awful.
I was attempting to point out though I love Bernie (but want Biden to win), I blame him for not getting a decent explanation of MFA funding.
My concern is there's alot of passion coming from the Bernie Liz flank and they may be able to push MFA onto the platform. So it would help us if folks understand it's not necessarily more expensive if that were to happen.
At this point in time a Medicare option is the best plan for dems to propose
Warren is more convincing, but Im immune to her because every problem has the sane solution from the same pool of tax money.0 -
Waving a finger in peoples faces is a miss characterization.Hi! said:Im so sick of Harris lecturing and waving her finger in people’s faces. She doesn’t seem to be likable or friendly, more abrasive and rude. Definitely see the prosecutor side come out in these debates. Not sure if she wants to help me with affordable health care or throw me in jail.09/15/1998 & 09/16/1998, Mansfield, MA; 08/29/00 08/30/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/27/2008, Hartford; 06/28/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield; 08/18/2009, O2, London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont; 07/02/2012, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/04/2012 & 07/05/2012, Berlin, Germany; 07/07/2012, Stockholm, Sweden; 09/30/2012, Missoula, MT; 07/16/2013, London, Ont; 07/19/2013, Chicago, IL; 10/15/2013 & 10/16/2013, Worcester, MA; 10/21/2013 & 10/22/2013, Philadelphia, PA; 10/25/2013, Hartford, CT; 11/29/2013, Portland, OR; 11/30/2013, Spokane, WA; 12/04/2013, Vancouver, BC; 12/06/2013, Seattle, WA; 10/03/2014, St. Louis. MO; 10/22/2014, Denver, CO; 10/26/2015, New York, NY; 04/23/2016, New Orleans, LA; 04/28/2016 & 04/29/2016, Philadelphia, PA; 05/01/2016 & 05/02/2016, New York, NY; 05/08/2016, Ottawa, Ont.; 05/10/2016 & 05/12/2016, Toronto, Ont.; 08/05/2016 & 08/07/2016, Boston, MA; 08/20/2016 & 08/22/2016, Chicago, IL; 07/01/2018, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/03/2018, Krakow, Poland; 07/05/2018, Berlin, Germany; 09/02/2018 & 09/04/2018, Boston, MA; 09/08/2022, Toronto, Ont; 09/11/2022, New York, NY; 09/14/2022, Camden, NJ; 09/02/2023, St. Paul, MN; 05/04/2024 & 05/06/2024, Vancouver, BC; 05/10/2024, Portland, OR;
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Well, one side is shifting to "we should make a better society - look at how much better other countries are doing, we're been doing it wrong. oops" and the other side shifted to "we are awful, racist people and here: we give you Donald Trump"cincybearcat said:dignin said:
I believe Warren and Sanders are talking to those people.The Juggler said:cincybearcat said:
I’m more concerned.The Juggler said:I'm less confident about these democrats' chances than I was a month ago.
Mostly because
1) I now think Biden is a terrible candidate. Never liked the guy but thought he could win. He seems tired and like he doesn’t want to be there.
2) Dems keep moving left, which is away from me and moderates. So even if they win, I’m not going to like the result.
3) it seems like it’s a Biden/Sanders/Warren race at the moment at that is about as bad as it could get for me.
But yeah, overall, pretty disappointing if you're a moderate. They barely spent any time talking about the voters they need to win those most important 12-15 states last night.
But I do agree, if you are a moderate, the shift in the Democratic party would be disappointing.
The shift in both parties. Republicans just started sooner
So, its not the same.
Having kids die in cages and not stopping the gun-violence epidemic VS a green new deal and wanting citizens to actually live"Mostly I think that people react sensitively because they know you’ve got a point"0 -
Haha. This made me laugh. Short, and to the point.mcgruff10 said:Deblasio is such a pos."Mostly I think that people react sensitively because they know you’ve got a point"0 -
And give me the reason why this have to be a reality in the US, with other countries managing?mrussel1 said:My biggest concern is quality of care if private hospitals turn into government entities. We have government hospitals in this country and the care is terrible, wait times atrocious, etc. The VA is awful.
"Mostly I think that people react sensitively because they know you’ve got a point"0 -
With those two questions of yours... I must ask - could you read and understand the graph I posted?mcgruff10 said:
How much will my taxes go up? Where is the money coming from to pay for this?Spiritual_Chaos said:Elizabeth Warren: Medicare For All Is Cheaper Than Our Current System
https://youtu.be/RlHik6YAPns
So, first answer this question - what does that graph tell you?
And after that, I can answer your question. Because I don't really understand why your question even would be asked if you can read the graph.
So lets take it in the right order.
Post edited by Spiritual_Chaos on"Mostly I think that people react sensitively because they know you’ve got a point"0 -
When did it become about just posting “it’s not the same” and all the “false equivalencies” bullshit?Spiritual_Chaos said:
Well, one side is shifting to "we should make a better society - look at how much better other countries are doing, we're been doing it wrong. oops" and the other side shifted to "we are awful, racist people and here: we give you Donald Trump"cincybearcat said:dignin said:
I believe Warren and Sanders are talking to those people.The Juggler said:cincybearcat said:
I’m more concerned.The Juggler said:I'm less confident about these democrats' chances than I was a month ago.
Mostly because
1) I now think Biden is a terrible candidate. Never liked the guy but thought he could win. He seems tired and like he doesn’t want to be there.
2) Dems keep moving left, which is away from me and moderates. So even if they win, I’m not going to like the result.
3) it seems like it’s a Biden/Sanders/Warren race at the moment at that is about as bad as it could get for me.
But yeah, overall, pretty disappointing if you're a moderate. They barely spent any time talking about the voters they need to win those most important 12-15 states last night.
But I do agree, if you are a moderate, the shift in the Democratic party would be disappointing.
The shift in both parties. Republicans just started sooner
So, its not the same.
Having kids die in cages and not stopping the gun-violence epidemic VS a green new deal and wanting citizens to actually live
Im simply saying each party is moving more towards their extremes. Each party moving away from the moderates in their party or the moderate independents. I’m not comparing policies.hippiemom = goodness0 -
Just giving some context.cincybearcat said:
When did it become about just posting “it’s not the same” and all the “false equivalencies” bullshit?Spiritual_Chaos said:
Well, one side is shifting to "we should make a better society - look at how much better other countries are doing, we're been doing it wrong. oops" and the other side shifted to "we are awful, racist people and here: we give you Donald Trump"cincybearcat said:dignin said:
I believe Warren and Sanders are talking to those people.The Juggler said:cincybearcat said:
I’m more concerned.The Juggler said:I'm less confident about these democrats' chances than I was a month ago.
Mostly because
1) I now think Biden is a terrible candidate. Never liked the guy but thought he could win. He seems tired and like he doesn’t want to be there.
2) Dems keep moving left, which is away from me and moderates. So even if they win, I’m not going to like the result.
3) it seems like it’s a Biden/Sanders/Warren race at the moment at that is about as bad as it could get for me.
But yeah, overall, pretty disappointing if you're a moderate. They barely spent any time talking about the voters they need to win those most important 12-15 states last night.
But I do agree, if you are a moderate, the shift in the Democratic party would be disappointing.
The shift in both parties. Republicans just started sooner
So, its not the same.
Having kids die in cages and not stopping the gun-violence epidemic VS a green new deal and wanting citizens to actually live
Im simply saying each party is moving more towards their extremes. Each party moving away from the moderates in their party or the moderate independents. I’m not comparing policies.
Maybe it's time to leave the "moderates" behind and whatever their reasons are for staying "moderates" if some change is actually to happen - for the american people and the world.
"Mostly I think that people react sensitively because they know you’ve got a point"0 -
The graph with a biased title, no division of "out of pocket" vs. insurance-covered, no normalization for population size beyond PPP, no segmentation into meaningful population cohorts, no consideration for commodity vs. high-demand drugs, no recognition of the subsidies which American drug-buyers support the R&D of global drugs, and the graph which somehow tries to distil healthcare results to a single number? That graph is meaningless in the state you posted it (if you truly are interested in taking it in the right order).Spiritual_Chaos said:
With those two questions of yours... I must ask - could you read and understand the graph I posted?mcgruff10 said:
How much will my taxes go up? Where is the money coming from to pay for this?Spiritual_Chaos said:Elizabeth Warren: Medicare For All Is Cheaper Than Our Current System
https://youtu.be/RlHik6YAPns
So, first answer this question - what does that graph tell you?
And after that, I can answer your question. Because I don't really understand why your question even would be asked if you can read the graph.
So lets take it in the right order.
BTW, I don't think I need to state this, but please don't confuse my asking for you to post meaningful information with sources, with supporting one health care system over another.'05 - TO, '06 - TO 1, '08 - NYC 1 & 2, '09 - TO, Chi 1 & 2, '10 - Buffalo, NYC 1 & 2, '11 - TO 1 & 2, Hamilton, '13 - Buffalo, Brooklyn 1 & 2, '15 - Global Citizen, '16 - TO 1 & 2, Chi 2
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 10 -
When people in debates are already talking about how expensive it will be to implement Medicare for All, and scaring Americans already, the solution isn't likely to be 'also fix the condition of every single hospital at the same time'.Spiritual_Chaos said:
And give me the reason why this have to be a reality in the US, with other countries managing?mrussel1 said:My biggest concern is quality of care if private hospitals turn into government entities. We have government hospitals in this country and the care is terrible, wait times atrocious, etc. The VA is awful.
Once again, you are cherry-picking what you want, ignoring all constraints or uphill battles like they simply don't exist. You don't seem to realize that some of us are on your side, and not saying 'no', but saying 'not right now', and some (like me) would even prefer to say 'not right now but let's make a plan that coexists with the unique characteristics and needs of the USA and its citizens'.
'05 - TO, '06 - TO 1, '08 - NYC 1 & 2, '09 - TO, Chi 1 & 2, '10 - Buffalo, NYC 1 & 2, '11 - TO 1 & 2, Hamilton, '13 - Buffalo, Brooklyn 1 & 2, '15 - Global Citizen, '16 - TO 1 & 2, Chi 2
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 10 -
I don't know enough of that terminology (especially in English) to respond to whatever you are saying.benjs said:
The graph with a biased title, no division of "out of pocket" vs. insurance-covered, no normalization for population size beyond PPP, no segmentation into meaningful population cohorts, no consideration for commodity vs. high-demand drugs, no recognition of the subsidies which American drug-buyers support the R&D of global drugs, and the graph which somehow tries to distil healthcare results to a single number? That graph is meaningless in the state you posted it (if you truly are interested in taking it in the right order).Spiritual_Chaos said:
With those two questions of yours... I must ask - could you read and understand the graph I posted?mcgruff10 said:
How much will my taxes go up? Where is the money coming from to pay for this?Spiritual_Chaos said:Elizabeth Warren: Medicare For All Is Cheaper Than Our Current System
https://youtu.be/RlHik6YAPns
So, first answer this question - what does that graph tell you?
And after that, I can answer your question. Because I don't really understand why your question even would be asked if you can read the graph.
So lets take it in the right order.
BTW, I don't think I need to state this, but please don't confuse my asking for you to post meaningful information with sources, with supporting one health care system over another.
But in the words of David Letterman
(haha - not saying you are Bill O'Reilly)
But let me ask you, now that you are not ignoring me and not defending but defending the US having DOUBLE the price of health care (haha) - name another country that can be compared to the US? Or are you saying that US is a unique snowflake of a country impossible to compare with others? So diverse. So big. 12 years old can marry. Healthcare prices must be double Etc.
Post edited by Spiritual_Chaos on"Mostly I think that people react sensitively because they know you’ve got a point"0 -
The goalposts have move far to the right. Obama was pretty central/moderate yet he was painted as a commie. Hillary was basically a 1950s republican.
The word socialism has been weaponized expertly and framed as communism. Any progressive idea like fixing the health care cost issue, affordable education, fair elections, accepting science, etc are now considered moving toward stalin and work camps
If the extreme left was present, we would be talking about a workers' revolution to take over the government as well as the means of production. Trying to adapt to the world as if its 2020 and not pretending its 1960 is not crazy-left.
0 -
I agree on the 'false equivalencies'. There was no shift towards racism from the Democratic party that SC alluded to - that's pretty clear.cincybearcat said:
When did it become about just posting “it’s not the same” and all the “false equivalencies” bullshit?Spiritual_Chaos said:
Well, one side is shifting to "we should make a better society - look at how much better other countries are doing, we're been doing it wrong. oops" and the other side shifted to "we are awful, racist people and here: we give you Donald Trump"cincybearcat said:dignin said:
I believe Warren and Sanders are talking to those people.The Juggler said:cincybearcat said:
I’m more concerned.The Juggler said:I'm less confident about these democrats' chances than I was a month ago.
Mostly because
1) I now think Biden is a terrible candidate. Never liked the guy but thought he could win. He seems tired and like he doesn’t want to be there.
2) Dems keep moving left, which is away from me and moderates. So even if they win, I’m not going to like the result.
3) it seems like it’s a Biden/Sanders/Warren race at the moment at that is about as bad as it could get for me.
But yeah, overall, pretty disappointing if you're a moderate. They barely spent any time talking about the voters they need to win those most important 12-15 states last night.
But I do agree, if you are a moderate, the shift in the Democratic party would be disappointing.
The shift in both parties. Republicans just started sooner
So, its not the same.
Having kids die in cages and not stopping the gun-violence epidemic VS a green new deal and wanting citizens to actually live
Im simply saying each party is moving more towards their extremes. Each party moving away from the moderates in their party or the moderate independents. I’m not comparing policies.
Bear in mind that shifts towards extremes are pretty difficult to detect, because the best leading indicator we have for movement on the political spectrum is just voter volume (and I mean volume as in how loud/outspoken they are), and moderates are moderate - and their voices can be drowned out by the far-louder polar extremes. I think there's a shift to the left in the Democratic party going on, however I believe it could be less significant than it feels based on that fact.'05 - TO, '06 - TO 1, '08 - NYC 1 & 2, '09 - TO, Chi 1 & 2, '10 - Buffalo, NYC 1 & 2, '11 - TO 1 & 2, Hamilton, '13 - Buffalo, Brooklyn 1 & 2, '15 - Global Citizen, '16 - TO 1 & 2, Chi 2
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 10 -
Yes.MayDay10 said:The goalposts have move far to the right. Obama was pretty central/moderate yet he was painted as a commie. Hillary was basically a 1950s republican.
The word socialism has been weaponized expertly and framed as communism. Any progressive idea like fixing the health care cost issue, affordable education, fair elections, accepting science, etc are now considered moving toward stalin and work camps
If the extreme left was present, we would be talking about a workers' revolution to take over the government as well as the means of production. Trying to adapt to the world as if its 2020 and not pretending its 1960 is not crazy-left."Mostly I think that people react sensitively because they know you’ve got a point"0 -
Do you even bother reading what I write? I explicitly said I'm not here stating that I support one healthcare program over another, but that I'm asking you to post information fairly. You never gave a source for your chart. Your chart has a title that has bias. Your chart is based on total spend when many nations rely heavily on insurance to cover portions of that (which should be removed - but still include the insurance cost to consumers). Your chart doesn't consider how costs scale across populations and geographies. Your chart doesn't subdivide to classes/rural vs. urban splits/races to try to understand what's going on (exclusively trying to judge - always a red flag for me). Your chart doesn't account for the fact that costs for rare drugs are far higher than commodity drugs, meaning there is implicit bias in comparing a larger population to a smaller one. And finally, you keep doing this shit! When you post a barrage of YouTube videos and graphs like this, why would anyone trust your opinion?Spiritual_Chaos said:
I don't know enough of that terminology (especially in English) to respond to whatever you are saying.benjs said:
The graph with a biased title, no division of "out of pocket" vs. insurance-covered, no normalization for population size beyond PPP, no segmentation into meaningful population cohorts, no consideration for commodity vs. high-demand drugs, no recognition of the subsidies which American drug-buyers support the R&D of global drugs, and the graph which somehow tries to distil healthcare results to a single number? That graph is meaningless in the state you posted it (if you truly are interested in taking it in the right order).Spiritual_Chaos said:
With those two questions of yours... I must ask - could you read and understand the graph I posted?mcgruff10 said:
How much will my taxes go up? Where is the money coming from to pay for this?Spiritual_Chaos said:Elizabeth Warren: Medicare For All Is Cheaper Than Our Current System
https://youtu.be/RlHik6YAPns
So, first answer this question - what does that graph tell you?
And after that, I can answer your question. Because I don't really understand why your question even would be asked if you can read the graph.
So lets take it in the right order.
BTW, I don't think I need to state this, but please don't confuse my asking for you to post meaningful information with sources, with supporting one health care system over another.
But in the words of David Letterman
But let me ask you, now that you are not ignoring me and not defending but defending the US having DOUBLE the price of health care (haha) - name another country that can be compared to the US? Or are you saying that US is a unique snowflake of a country impossible to compare with others? So diverse. So big. 12 years old can marry. Healthcare prices must be double Etc.
As for your 'now that you're not ignoring me' comment - I read almost all of your posts. I respond to the ones that I think are worth responding to (really no different to anyone else on here). Only difference is now I don't have to scroll through as many silly one-liners or gifs about why Bernie Sanders is the messiah and the rest of politicians are Satan reincarnated.
Feel free to elaborate where you still have confusion. I hope I've shown you already that at least 80% of what I said is not crap, just stuff you'd like to ignore.'05 - TO, '06 - TO 1, '08 - NYC 1 & 2, '09 - TO, Chi 1 & 2, '10 - Buffalo, NYC 1 & 2, '11 - TO 1 & 2, Hamilton, '13 - Buffalo, Brooklyn 1 & 2, '15 - Global Citizen, '16 - TO 1 & 2, Chi 2
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 10
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