The Democratic Candidates

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  • cincybearcat
    cincybearcat Posts: 16,832
    The only people that think Warren owned anybody during that election are those that want free everything.  There were plenty of challenges to Warren and Bernie that went mostly unanswered...well they answered but it was not a good look for them.

    I have no idea why the democrats seem hell bent on losing in 2020.  Free healthcare for illegal immigrants? What?  Free health care for anyone that shows up at the door? What?  Free public universities? What? Eliminate ALL student loan debt? What?

    These certainly are big idea.  But just because an idea is big doesn't mean it can't also be very bad.  The Dems already lost the most winnable election in a long time.  And they seem on the path to lose an election that should be even more winnable.  Please don't give me Trump for 4 more years as you push towards an extremely left (some socialism) agenda.  I've already been willing to compromise some of my core beliefs to vote Democrat...please meet me half way.
    hippiemom = goodness
  • Spiritual_Chaos
    Spiritual_Chaos Posts: 31,470
    edited July 2019
    Ledbetterman10 said:
    Couldn't agree more with what he says at 2:10


    I liked this too from him:

    Of the Republican attack line that paints progressive policies as “socialist”, he observed crisply: “It’s time to stop worrying about what the Republicans say. If we embrace a far-left agenda, they’ll say we’re crazy socialists. If we embrace a conservative agenda, they’ll say the same thing.”
    "Mostly I think that people react sensitively because they know you’ve got a point"
  • Spiritual_Chaos
    Spiritual_Chaos Posts: 31,470
    cincybearcat said:
    The only people that think Warren owned anybody during that election are those that want free everything.  There were plenty of challenges to Warren and Bernie that went mostly unanswered...well they answered but it was not a good look for them.

    I have no idea why the democrats seem hell bent on losing in 2020.  Free healthcare for illegal immigrants? What?  Free health care for anyone that shows up at the door? What?  Free public universities? What? Eliminate ALL student loan debt? What?

    These certainly are big idea.  But just because an idea is big doesn't mean it can't also be very bad.  The Dems already lost the most winnable election in a long time.  And they seem on the path to lose an election that should be even more winnable.  Please don't give me Trump for 4 more years as you push towards an extremely left (some socialism) agenda.  I've already been willing to compromise some of my core beliefs to vote Democrat...please meet me half way.
    Big idea to be able to show up at the hospital door in need of care and getting it? EXISTS TODAY IN BETTER OFF COUNTRIES
    Big idea to have "free public universities"? EXISTS TODAY IN BETTER OFF COUNTRIES
    Big idea to eliminate all student loan debt? EXISTS TODAY IN.... eh.... that's crazy. They need to drop that.

    I don't think this social-liberal agenda (that skewed America sees as burning red hot communism or close to it) will make you lose an election. People voted for a black man in your country. And we have all seen the movie A Time to Kill. So I do believe that they can vote for a man or woman with sound social-liberal/democratic values that benefit the people, and the world. Believe you me. I do believe. 
    "Mostly I think that people react sensitively because they know you’ve got a point"
  • mrussel1
    mrussel1 Posts: 30,879
    dignin said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    I have zero interest to watch the debates on tv. I ll check out the summaries in the news tomorrow.  
    Exactly, why make up my own mind and develop my own thoughts. I need it spoon fed to me.
    I agree with Scruffy. there's no voting so it doesn't matter to me right now.  Im interested to hear analysis but I don't care what the candidates say.  I have plenty of time to decide than waste my team on this. 
  • Ledbetterman10
    Ledbetterman10 Posts: 16,994
    Spiritual_Chaos said:
    Ledbetterman10 said:
    Couldn't agree more with what he says at 2:10


    I liked this too from him:

    Of the Republican attack line that paints progressive policies as “socialist”, he observed crisply: “It’s time to stop worrying about what the Republicans say. If we embrace a far-left agenda, they’ll say we’re crazy socialists. If we embrace a conservative agenda, they’ll say the same thing.”
    I mostly agree with him here about not worrying about what the Republicans say since he's probably talking about Trump and other republican politicians. But there's also republican voters and independents to worry about. Cincy makes a good point here.....
    cincybearcat said:
    I have no idea why the democrats seem hell bent on losing in 2020.  Free healthcare for illegal immigrants? What?  Free health care for anyone that shows up at the door? What?  Free public universities? What? Eliminate ALL student loan debt? What?
    Saying stuff like this might win the "woke-contest" of the democratic primary, but if whoever wins the nomination was spouting this stuff (like Warren for instance), it's going to be hard to move back to the middle for a general election. There's lots of votes to be had from moderate democrats and Trump-hating repbulicans. But they won't be had proposing things free healthcare for illegal immigrants.

    Going back to the first debate when the canidates were (insanely) asked to raise their hands if they'd give illegals free healthcare, everyone raised their hand. But watch Biden. He was the last one to do it, and maybe wouldn't have if he hadn't seen others raising their hands either on the monitor or in his peripheral vision. Why? Because he knows it's bad policy in general, and it's really, really bad politcally against Trump. But everyone raised their hands, so he did too. That would have been a great opportunity for him to break from the pack, but instead, he looked like a sheep. 

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aMSmoNOZJ9Y
    2000: Camden 1, 2003: Philly, State College, Camden 1, MSG 2, Hershey, 2004: Reading, 2005: Philly, 2006: Camden 1, 2, East Rutherford 1, 2007: Lollapalooza, 2008: Camden 1, Washington D.C., MSG 1, 2, 2009: Philly 1, 2, 3, 4, 2010: Bristol, MSG 2, 2011: PJ20 1, 2, 2012: Made In America, 2013: Brooklyn 2, Philly 2, 2014: Denver, 2015: Global Citizen Festival, 2016: Philly 2, Fenway 1, 2018: Fenway 1, 2, 2021: Sea. Hear. Now. 2022: Camden, 2024: Philly 2, 2025: Pittsburgh 1

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  • Spiritual_Chaos
    Spiritual_Chaos Posts: 31,470
    edited July 2019
    mrussel1 said:
    dignin said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    I have zero interest to watch the debates on tv. I ll check out the summaries in the news tomorrow.  
    Exactly, why make up my own mind and develop my own thoughts. I need it spoon fed to me.
    I agree with Scruffy. there's no voting so it doesn't matter to me right now.  Im interested to hear analysis but I don't care what the candidates say.  I have plenty of time to decide than waste my team on this. 
    And to be honest, they are not gonna say anything surprising about where they stand om issues one do not already know of. If they would, you would hear it from somewhere else. 
    Post edited by Spiritual_Chaos on
    "Mostly I think that people react sensitively because they know you’ve got a point"
  • cincybearcat
    cincybearcat Posts: 16,832
    Has anyone used the calculator to see how much Bernie's tax plan for these proposals ends up costing you....in addition to what you are already paying?  
    hippiemom = goodness
  • tempo_n_groove
    tempo_n_groove Posts: 41,359
    Bernie  "Yes I do, I wrote the damn Bill!"

    Love it, lol.
  • mrussel1
    mrussel1 Posts: 30,879
    cincybearcat said:
    Has anyone used the calculator to see how much Bernie's tax plan for these proposals ends up costing you....in addition to what you are already paying?  
    I did in 16, for the free university.  It was tens of thousands per year,  much more than it cost to send my kids to school.  This was without the m4a or waived student loans.  I was very against him in the primaries in 16.
  • Ledbetterman10
    Ledbetterman10 Posts: 16,994
    mrussel1 said:
    cincybearcat said:
    Has anyone used the calculator to see how much Bernie's tax plan for these proposals ends up costing you....in addition to what you are already paying?  
    I did in 16, for the free university.  It was tens of thousands per year,  much more than it cost to send my kids to school.  This was without the m4a or waived student loans.  I was very against him in the primaries in 16.
    Yeah he just goes too far. They all seem to. Student loan debt is a hardship for many people. But I would think presidential candidates could come up with a better solution than just erasing it all. Same with this free healthcare for illegals. I get it, they want to oppose Trump. But if the opposite ends of the spectrum are "Get out of our country" and "Come on in and you can have whatever you want," they have to find the middle ground to stand on. And I know Trump's "Get out of our country" stance has been successful for him, but the Dems don't have to go with the complete antithesis of that. 
    2000: Camden 1, 2003: Philly, State College, Camden 1, MSG 2, Hershey, 2004: Reading, 2005: Philly, 2006: Camden 1, 2, East Rutherford 1, 2007: Lollapalooza, 2008: Camden 1, Washington D.C., MSG 1, 2, 2009: Philly 1, 2, 3, 4, 2010: Bristol, MSG 2, 2011: PJ20 1, 2, 2012: Made In America, 2013: Brooklyn 2, Philly 2, 2014: Denver, 2015: Global Citizen Festival, 2016: Philly 2, Fenway 1, 2018: Fenway 1, 2, 2021: Sea. Hear. Now. 2022: Camden, 2024: Philly 2, 2025: Pittsburgh 1

    Pearl Jam bootlegs:
    http://wegotshit.blogspot.com
  • cincybearcat
    cincybearcat Posts: 16,832
    Spiritual_Chaos said:
    cincybearcat said:
    The only people that think Warren owned anybody during that election are those that want free everything.  There were plenty of challenges to Warren and Bernie that went mostly unanswered...well they answered but it was not a good look for them.

    I have no idea why the democrats seem hell bent on losing in 2020.  Free healthcare for illegal immigrants? What?  Free health care for anyone that shows up at the door? What?  Free public universities? What? Eliminate ALL student loan debt? What?

    These certainly are big idea.  But just because an idea is big doesn't mean it can't also be very bad.  The Dems already lost the most winnable election in a long time.  And they seem on the path to lose an election that should be even more winnable.  Please don't give me Trump for 4 more years as you push towards an extremely left (some socialism) agenda.  I've already been willing to compromise some of my core beliefs to vote Democrat...please meet me half way.
    Big idea to be able to show up at the hospital door in need of care and getting it? EXISTS TODAY IN BETTER OFF COUNTRIES
    Big idea to have "free public universities"? EXISTS TODAY IN BETTER OFF COUNTRIES
    Big idea to eliminate all student loan debt? EXISTS TODAY IN.... eh.... that's crazy. They need to drop that.

    I don't think this social-liberal agenda (that skewed America sees as burning red hot communism or close to it) will make you lose an election. People voted for a black man in your country. And we have all seen the movie A Time to Kill. So I do believe that they can vote for a man or woman with sound social-liberal/democratic values that benefit the people, and the world. Believe you me. I do believe. 
    I meant the doorstep of the country.  Hospitals will treat anyone that shows up at the ER.
    hippiemom = goodness
  • Spiritual_Chaos
    Spiritual_Chaos Posts: 31,470
    cincybearcat said:
    Spiritual_Chaos said:
    cincybearcat said:
    The only people that think Warren owned anybody during that election are those that want free everything.  There were plenty of challenges to Warren and Bernie that went mostly unanswered...well they answered but it was not a good look for them.

    I have no idea why the democrats seem hell bent on losing in 2020.  Free healthcare for illegal immigrants? What?  Free health care for anyone that shows up at the door? What?  Free public universities? What? Eliminate ALL student loan debt? What?

    These certainly are big idea.  But just because an idea is big doesn't mean it can't also be very bad.  The Dems already lost the most winnable election in a long time.  And they seem on the path to lose an election that should be even more winnable.  Please don't give me Trump for 4 more years as you push towards an extremely left (some socialism) agenda.  I've already been willing to compromise some of my core beliefs to vote Democrat...please meet me half way.
    Big idea to be able to show up at the hospital door in need of care and getting it? EXISTS TODAY IN BETTER OFF COUNTRIES
    Big idea to have "free public universities"? EXISTS TODAY IN BETTER OFF COUNTRIES
    Big idea to eliminate all student loan debt? EXISTS TODAY IN.... eh.... that's crazy. They need to drop that.

    I don't think this social-liberal agenda (that skewed America sees as burning red hot communism or close to it) will make you lose an election. People voted for a black man in your country. And we have all seen the movie A Time to Kill. So I do believe that they can vote for a man or woman with sound social-liberal/democratic values that benefit the people, and the world. Believe you me. I do believe. 
    I meant the doorstep of the country.  Hospitals will treat anyone that shows up at the ER.
    Big idea to be able to show up at the door of the border? EXISTS TODAY IN ... eh... have legal immigration
    Big idea to have "free public universities"? EXISTS TODAY IN BETTER OFF COUNTRIES
    Big idea to eliminate all student loan debt? EXISTS TODAY IN.... eh.... that's crazy. They need to drop that.
    "Mostly I think that people react sensitively because they know you’ve got a point"
  • mrussel1
    mrussel1 Posts: 30,879
    Spiritual_Chaos said:
    cincybearcat said:
    Spiritual_Chaos said:
    cincybearcat said:
    The only people that think Warren owned anybody during that election are those that want free everything.  There were plenty of challenges to Warren and Bernie that went mostly unanswered...well they answered but it was not a good look for them.

    I have no idea why the democrats seem hell bent on losing in 2020.  Free healthcare for illegal immigrants? What?  Free health care for anyone that shows up at the door? What?  Free public universities? What? Eliminate ALL student loan debt? What?

    These certainly are big idea.  But just because an idea is big doesn't mean it can't also be very bad.  The Dems already lost the most winnable election in a long time.  And they seem on the path to lose an election that should be even more winnable.  Please don't give me Trump for 4 more years as you push towards an extremely left (some socialism) agenda.  I've already been willing to compromise some of my core beliefs to vote Democrat...please meet me half way.
    Big idea to be able to show up at the hospital door in need of care and getting it? EXISTS TODAY IN BETTER OFF COUNTRIES
    Big idea to have "free public universities"? EXISTS TODAY IN BETTER OFF COUNTRIES
    Big idea to eliminate all student loan debt? EXISTS TODAY IN.... eh.... that's crazy. They need to drop that.

    I don't think this social-liberal agenda (that skewed America sees as burning red hot communism or close to it) will make you lose an election. People voted for a black man in your country. And we have all seen the movie A Time to Kill. So I do believe that they can vote for a man or woman with sound social-liberal/democratic values that benefit the people, and the world. Believe you me. I do believe. 
    I meant the doorstep of the country.  Hospitals will treat anyone that shows up at the ER.
    Big idea to be able to show up at the door of the border? EXISTS TODAY IN ... eh... have legal immigration
    Big idea to have "free public universities"? EXISTS TODAY IN BETTER OFF COUNTRIES
    Big idea to eliminate all student loan debt? EXISTS TODAY IN.... eh.... that's crazy. They need to drop that.
    Nope.  No matter how often you use bold,  it's not happening.  It's a losing argument in the superior country.  
  • Jason P
    Jason P Posts: 19,297
    Not a good sign for Democrats when the most excited person about the debate lives across a large expanse of water. 
    Be Excellent To Each Other
    Party On, Dudes!
  • cincybearcat
    cincybearcat Posts: 16,832
    mrussel1 said:
    Spiritual_Chaos said:
    cincybearcat said:
    Spiritual_Chaos said:
    cincybearcat said:
    The only people that think Warren owned anybody during that election are those that want free everything.  There were plenty of challenges to Warren and Bernie that went mostly unanswered...well they answered but it was not a good look for them.

    I have no idea why the democrats seem hell bent on losing in 2020.  Free healthcare for illegal immigrants? What?  Free health care for anyone that shows up at the door? What?  Free public universities? What? Eliminate ALL student loan debt? What?

    These certainly are big idea.  But just because an idea is big doesn't mean it can't also be very bad.  The Dems already lost the most winnable election in a long time.  And they seem on the path to lose an election that should be even more winnable.  Please don't give me Trump for 4 more years as you push towards an extremely left (some socialism) agenda.  I've already been willing to compromise some of my core beliefs to vote Democrat...please meet me half way.
    Big idea to be able to show up at the hospital door in need of care and getting it? EXISTS TODAY IN BETTER OFF COUNTRIES
    Big idea to have "free public universities"? EXISTS TODAY IN BETTER OFF COUNTRIES
    Big idea to eliminate all student loan debt? EXISTS TODAY IN.... eh.... that's crazy. They need to drop that.

    I don't think this social-liberal agenda (that skewed America sees as burning red hot communism or close to it) will make you lose an election. People voted for a black man in your country. And we have all seen the movie A Time to Kill. So I do believe that they can vote for a man or woman with sound social-liberal/democratic values that benefit the people, and the world. Believe you me. I do believe. 
    I meant the doorstep of the country.  Hospitals will treat anyone that shows up at the ER.
    Big idea to be able to show up at the door of the border? EXISTS TODAY IN ... eh... have legal immigration
    Big idea to have "free public universities"? EXISTS TODAY IN BETTER OFF COUNTRIES
    Big idea to eliminate all student loan debt? EXISTS TODAY IN.... eh.... that's crazy. They need to drop that.
    Nope.  No matter how often you use bold,  it's not happening.  It's a losing argument in the superior country.  
    I'd could be convinced of a targeted grant program aimed at specific skills.  Something to reduce cost of 2 year colleges and make free certain trades/skills/degrees that will be needed for the greater good.  I'm not ok with thinking we are doing something for the greater good but then allowing anyone to choose whatever they want to pursue.  If you are doing it for the benefit of the country it should benefit the country.  I doubt we need more lawyers for example.  
    hippiemom = goodness
  • mrussel1
    mrussel1 Posts: 30,879
    cincybearcat said:
    mrussel1 said:
    Spiritual_Chaos said:
    cincybearcat said:
    Spiritual_Chaos said:
    cincybearcat said:
    The only people that think Warren owned anybody during that election are those that want free everything.  There were plenty of challenges to Warren and Bernie that went mostly unanswered...well they answered but it was not a good look for them.

    I have no idea why the democrats seem hell bent on losing in 2020.  Free healthcare for illegal immigrants? What?  Free health care for anyone that shows up at the door? What?  Free public universities? What? Eliminate ALL student loan debt? What?

    These certainly are big idea.  But just because an idea is big doesn't mean it can't also be very bad.  The Dems already lost the most winnable election in a long time.  And they seem on the path to lose an election that should be even more winnable.  Please don't give me Trump for 4 more years as you push towards an extremely left (some socialism) agenda.  I've already been willing to compromise some of my core beliefs to vote Democrat...please meet me half way.
    Big idea to be able to show up at the hospital door in need of care and getting it? EXISTS TODAY IN BETTER OFF COUNTRIES
    Big idea to have "free public universities"? EXISTS TODAY IN BETTER OFF COUNTRIES
    Big idea to eliminate all student loan debt? EXISTS TODAY IN.... eh.... that's crazy. They need to drop that.

    I don't think this social-liberal agenda (that skewed America sees as burning red hot communism or close to it) will make you lose an election. People voted for a black man in your country. And we have all seen the movie A Time to Kill. So I do believe that they can vote for a man or woman with sound social-liberal/democratic values that benefit the people, and the world. Believe you me. I do believe. 
    I meant the doorstep of the country.  Hospitals will treat anyone that shows up at the ER.
    Big idea to be able to show up at the door of the border? EXISTS TODAY IN ... eh... have legal immigration
    Big idea to have "free public universities"? EXISTS TODAY IN BETTER OFF COUNTRIES
    Big idea to eliminate all student loan debt? EXISTS TODAY IN.... eh.... that's crazy. They need to drop that.
    Nope.  No matter how often you use bold,  it's not happening.  It's a losing argument in the superior country.  
    I'd could be convinced of a targeted grant program aimed at specific skills.  Something to reduce cost of 2 year colleges and make free certain trades/skills/degrees that will be needed for the greater good.  I'm not ok with thinking we are doing something for the greater good but then allowing anyone to choose whatever they want to pursue.  If you are doing it for the benefit of the country it should benefit the country.  I doubt we need more lawyers for example.  
    100%..  
  • mrussel1
    mrussel1 Posts: 30,879
    I like that Sanders combed his hair last night.  That was a nice touch. 
  • OnWis97
    OnWis97 St. Paul, MN Posts: 5,610
    Spiritual_Chaos said:
    cincybearcat said:
    The only people that think Warren owned anybody during that election are those that want free everything.  There were plenty of challenges to Warren and Bernie that went mostly unanswered...well they answered but it was not a good look for them.

    I have no idea why the democrats seem hell bent on losing in 2020.  Free healthcare for illegal immigrants? What?  Free health care for anyone that shows up at the door? What?  Free public universities? What? Eliminate ALL student loan debt? What?

    These certainly are big idea.  But just because an idea is big doesn't mean it can't also be very bad.  The Dems already lost the most winnable election in a long time.  And they seem on the path to lose an election that should be even more winnable.  Please don't give me Trump for 4 more years as you push towards an extremely left (some socialism) agenda.  I've already been willing to compromise some of my core beliefs to vote Democrat...please meet me half way.
    Big idea to be able to show up at the hospital door in need of care and getting it? EXISTS TODAY IN BETTER OFF COUNTRIES
    Big idea to have "free public universities"? EXISTS TODAY IN BETTER OFF COUNTRIES
    Big idea to eliminate all student loan debt? EXISTS TODAY IN.... eh.... that's crazy. They need to drop that.
    America does not want this (well, we have the top one, but we don't have and don't want free preventative care, etc.).  For better or for worse, it's what sets us apart. In America, we believe these things take away the incentive to work hard and that they promote statism and laziness.  Is this good or bad?  Well, it's not that simple. It's also not important.  Nobody pushing these things could beat Donald Trump.  It's that simple, particularly at a time when "socialism" is peaking as a scare-word.  I promise you, America is more scared of socialism than it is of whatever "ism" Trump could bring (up to and including fascism).

    Just like Trump keeps pleasing his 40% at the expense of the 60%, the Dems are pleasing, I don't know, 20%, at the expense of those that could conceivably put them over the top.  The Dems have decided to fight Trump by going straight polar opposite.  Just because the majority of the country is not fond of Trump, does not mean they're going to prefer a hard left.  America is a much, much bigger reflection of Trump than it is of AOC.  And it's also a bigger reflection of Trump than it is of Warren.

    This election is already over.
    1995 Milwaukee     1998 Alpine, Alpine     2003 Albany, Boston, Boston, Boston     2004 Boston, Boston     2006 Hartford, St. Paul (Petty), St. Paul (Petty)     2011 Alpine, Alpine     
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    2024 Napa, Wrigley, Wrigley
  • Spiritual_Chaos
    Spiritual_Chaos Posts: 31,470
    OnWis97 said:
    Spiritual_Chaos said:
    cincybearcat said:
    The only people that think Warren owned anybody during that election are those that want free everything.  There were plenty of challenges to Warren and Bernie that went mostly unanswered...well they answered but it was not a good look for them.

    I have no idea why the democrats seem hell bent on losing in 2020.  Free healthcare for illegal immigrants? What?  Free health care for anyone that shows up at the door? What?  Free public universities? What? Eliminate ALL student loan debt? What?

    These certainly are big idea.  But just because an idea is big doesn't mean it can't also be very bad.  The Dems already lost the most winnable election in a long time.  And they seem on the path to lose an election that should be even more winnable.  Please don't give me Trump for 4 more years as you push towards an extremely left (some socialism) agenda.  I've already been willing to compromise some of my core beliefs to vote Democrat...please meet me half way.
    Big idea to be able to show up at the hospital door in need of care and getting it? EXISTS TODAY IN BETTER OFF COUNTRIES
    Big idea to have "free public universities"? EXISTS TODAY IN BETTER OFF COUNTRIES
    Big idea to eliminate all student loan debt? EXISTS TODAY IN.... eh.... that's crazy. They need to drop that.
    America does not want this 

    "Mostly I think that people react sensitively because they know you’ve got a point"
  • cincybearcat
    cincybearcat Posts: 16,832
    Its clear to me that Amy is the candidate that is  the most aligned with my point of view out of that entire group.  She would make an excellent president.  And while I don't line up with him on many issues, Pete is an intelligent guy that can communicate like few others.  He would also make a good president. 

    In my non democrat point of view....I think I'm a solid moderate (but have some extreme views on some issues though they go against both parties)...it seems like Amy, Pete, Bernie, and Elizabeth are really the only candidates that should move forward that were on the stage last night.  Some others have some interesting points but haven't gotten the support and I don't think they will.  Time to vote people off the island and cut this crew down...need more time to discuss the details.
    hippiemom = goodness
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