The Democratic Candidates

Gern Blansten

Spiritual_Chaos said:

cincybearcat said:

The only people that think Warren owned anybody during that election are those that want free everything.  There were plenty of challenges to Warren and Bernie that went mostly unanswered...well they answered but it was not a good look for them.

I have no idea why the democrats seem hell bent on losing in 2020.  Free healthcare for illegal immigrants? What?  Free health care for anyone that shows up at the door? What?  Free public universities? What? Eliminate ALL student loan debt? What?

These certainly are big idea.  But just because an idea is big doesn't mean it can't also be very bad.  The Dems already lost the most winnable election in a long time.  And they seem on the path to lose an election that should be even more winnable.  Please don't give me Trump for 4 more years as you push towards an extremely left (some socialism) agenda.  I've already been willing to compromise some of my core beliefs to vote Democrat...please meet me half way.

Big idea to be able to show up at the hospital door in need of care and getting it? EXISTS TODAY IN BETTER OFF COUNTRIES
Big idea to have "free public universities"? EXISTS TODAY IN BETTER OFF COUNTRIES
Big idea to eliminate all student loan debt? EXISTS TODAY IN.... eh.... that's crazy. They need to drop that.

I don't think this social-liberal agenda (that skewed America sees as burning red hot communism or close to it) will make you lose an election. People voted for a black man in your country. And we have all seen the movie A Time to Kill. So I do believe that they can vote for a man or woman with sound social-liberal/democratic values that benefit the people, and the world. Believe you me. I do believe. 

At a minimum, student loan interest should be tax deductible.  Right now you can only deduct $2,500 and if your income exceeds $80K you don't even get to deduct that.

Gern Blansten

OnWis97 said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

cincybearcat said:

The only people that think Warren owned anybody during that election are those that want free everything.  There were plenty of challenges to Warren and Bernie that went mostly unanswered...well they answered but it was not a good look for them.

I have no idea why the democrats seem hell bent on losing in 2020.  Free healthcare for illegal immigrants? What?  Free health care for anyone that shows up at the door? What?  Free public universities? What? Eliminate ALL student loan debt? What?

These certainly are big idea.  But just because an idea is big doesn't mean it can't also be very bad.  The Dems already lost the most winnable election in a long time.  And they seem on the path to lose an election that should be even more winnable.  Please don't give me Trump for 4 more years as you push towards an extremely left (some socialism) agenda.  I've already been willing to compromise some of my core beliefs to vote Democrat...please meet me half way.

Big idea to be able to show up at the hospital door in need of care and getting it? EXISTS TODAY IN BETTER OFF COUNTRIES
Big idea to have "free public universities"? EXISTS TODAY IN BETTER OFF COUNTRIES
Big idea to eliminate all student loan debt? EXISTS TODAY IN.... eh.... that's crazy. They need to drop that.

America does not want this (well, we have the top one, but we don't have and don't want free preventative care, etc.).  For better or for worse, it's what sets us apart. In America, we believe these things take away the incentive to work hard and that they promote statism and laziness.  Is this good or bad?  Well, it's not that simple. It's also not important.  Nobody pushing these things could beat Donald Trump.  It's that simple, particularly at a time when "socialism" is peaking as a scare-word.  I promise you, America is more scared of socialism than it is of whatever "ism" Trump could bring (up to and including fascism).

Just like Trump keeps pleasing his 40% at the expense of the 60%, the Dems are pleasing, I don't know, 20%, at the expense of those that could conceivably put them over the top.  The Dems have decided to fight Trump by going straight polar opposite.  Just because the majority of the country is not fond of Trump, does not mean they're going to prefer a hard left.  America is a much, much bigger reflection of Trump than it is of AOC.  And it's also a bigger reflection of Trump than it is of Warren.

This election is already over.

They actually do....it just depends on how the poll question is worded

Spiritual_Chaos

Gern Blansten said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

cincybearcat said:

The only people that think Warren owned anybody during that election are those that want free everything.  There were plenty of challenges to Warren and Bernie that went mostly unanswered...well they answered but it was not a good look for them.

I have no idea why the democrats seem hell bent on losing in 2020.  Free healthcare for illegal immigrants? What?  Free health care for anyone that shows up at the door? What?  Free public universities? What? Eliminate ALL student loan debt? What?

These certainly are big idea.  But just because an idea is big doesn't mean it can't also be very bad.  The Dems already lost the most winnable election in a long time.  And they seem on the path to lose an election that should be even more winnable.  Please don't give me Trump for 4 more years as you push towards an extremely left (some socialism) agenda.  I've already been willing to compromise some of my core beliefs to vote Democrat...please meet me half way.

Big idea to be able to show up at the hospital door in need of care and getting it? EXISTS TODAY IN BETTER OFF COUNTRIES
Big idea to have "free public universities"? EXISTS TODAY IN BETTER OFF COUNTRIES
Big idea to eliminate all student loan debt? EXISTS TODAY IN.... eh.... that's crazy. They need to drop that.

I don't think this social-liberal agenda (that skewed America sees as burning red hot communism or close to it) will make you lose an election. People voted for a black man in your country. And we have all seen the movie A Time to Kill. So I do believe that they can vote for a man or woman with sound social-liberal/democratic values that benefit the people, and the world. Believe you me. I do believe. 

At a minimum, student loan interest should be tax deductible.  Right now you can only deduct $2,500 and if your income exceeds $80K you don't even get to deduct that.

In Sweden everyone loans the student loan (weird wording) from the state. 
Just heard that people actually takes out that loan, but works on weekends etc to live on instead while studying to use the loaned money to buy a flat after finishing school. Never known of anyone actually doing it, but I guess  he god damn millennials are more savvy than my generation were.

That is how "generous" the loan and interests are compared to private lenders/banks. 

Are student loans from private companies in the US?

Gern Blansten

Spiritual_Chaos said:

Gern Blansten said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

cincybearcat said:

The only people that think Warren owned anybody during that election are those that want free everything.  There were plenty of challenges to Warren and Bernie that went mostly unanswered...well they answered but it was not a good look for them.

I have no idea why the democrats seem hell bent on losing in 2020.  Free healthcare for illegal immigrants? What?  Free health care for anyone that shows up at the door? What?  Free public universities? What? Eliminate ALL student loan debt? What?

These certainly are big idea.  But just because an idea is big doesn't mean it can't also be very bad.  The Dems already lost the most winnable election in a long time.  And they seem on the path to lose an election that should be even more winnable.  Please don't give me Trump for 4 more years as you push towards an extremely left (some socialism) agenda.  I've already been willing to compromise some of my core beliefs to vote Democrat...please meet me half way.

Big idea to be able to show up at the hospital door in need of care and getting it? EXISTS TODAY IN BETTER OFF COUNTRIES
Big idea to have "free public universities"? EXISTS TODAY IN BETTER OFF COUNTRIES
Big idea to eliminate all student loan debt? EXISTS TODAY IN.... eh.... that's crazy. They need to drop that.

I don't think this social-liberal agenda (that skewed America sees as burning red hot communism or close to it) will make you lose an election. People voted for a black man in your country. And we have all seen the movie A Time to Kill. So I do believe that they can vote for a man or woman with sound social-liberal/democratic values that benefit the people, and the world. Believe you me. I do believe. 

At a minimum, student loan interest should be tax deductible.  Right now you can only deduct $2,500 and if your income exceeds $80K you don't even get to deduct that.

In Sweden everyone loans the student loan (weird wording) from the state. 
Just heard that people actually takes out that loan, but works on weekends etc to live on instead while studying to use the loaned money to buy a flat after finishing school. Never known of anyone actually doing it, but I guess  he god damn millennials are more savvy than my generation were.

That is how "generous" the loan and interests are compared to private lenders/banks. 

Are student loans from private companies in the US?

Most are.  The federal government will loan you around $27K over four years at a low interest rate.  If you need more than that then you have to go to a private company where the rates are much higher.

It isn't unusual for students to graduate with $80K in debt.  It's a ridiculous set up.  Most of the kids aren't aware of the consequences and their parents aren't smart enough to let them avoid it.  That's America.

Spiritual_Chaos

Gern Blansten said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

Gern Blansten said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

cincybearcat said:

The only people that think Warren owned anybody during that election are those that want free everything.  There were plenty of challenges to Warren and Bernie that went mostly unanswered...well they answered but it was not a good look for them.

I have no idea why the democrats seem hell bent on losing in 2020.  Free healthcare for illegal immigrants? What?  Free health care for anyone that shows up at the door? What?  Free public universities? What? Eliminate ALL student loan debt? What?

These certainly are big idea.  But just because an idea is big doesn't mean it can't also be very bad.  The Dems already lost the most winnable election in a long time.  And they seem on the path to lose an election that should be even more winnable.  Please don't give me Trump for 4 more years as you push towards an extremely left (some socialism) agenda.  I've already been willing to compromise some of my core beliefs to vote Democrat...please meet me half way.

Big idea to be able to show up at the hospital door in need of care and getting it? EXISTS TODAY IN BETTER OFF COUNTRIES
Big idea to have "free public universities"? EXISTS TODAY IN BETTER OFF COUNTRIES
Big idea to eliminate all student loan debt? EXISTS TODAY IN.... eh.... that's crazy. They need to drop that.

I don't think this social-liberal agenda (that skewed America sees as burning red hot communism or close to it) will make you lose an election. People voted for a black man in your country. And we have all seen the movie A Time to Kill. So I do believe that they can vote for a man or woman with sound social-liberal/democratic values that benefit the people, and the world. Believe you me. I do believe. 

At a minimum, student loan interest should be tax deductible.  Right now you can only deduct $2,500 and if your income exceeds $80K you don't even get to deduct that.

In Sweden everyone loans the student loan (weird wording) from the state. 
Just heard that people actually takes out that loan, but works on weekends etc to live on instead while studying to use the loaned money to buy a flat after finishing school. Never known of anyone actually doing it, but I guess  he god damn millennials are more savvy than my generation were.

That is how "generous" the loan and interests are compared to private lenders/banks. 

Are student loans from private companies in the US?

Most are.  The federal government will loan you around $27K over four years at a low interest rate.  If you need more than that then you have to go to a private company where the rates are much higher.

It isn't unusual for students to graduate with $80K in debt.  It's a ridiculous set up.  Most of the kids aren't aware of the consequences and their parents aren't smart enough to let them avoid it.  That's America.

In Sweden, it seems you you get (for 3 years): $33K where the loan is $22K and the rest is an "education grant". You do however have the right to loan money for something like 6 years. So that would be $66K then - 44K loan and the rest education grant.

But it doesn't cost anything to attend a University here. So no money needed for that.

I think you have to pay back the loan in 25 years nowadays.

mrussel1

Gern Blansten said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

Gern Blansten said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

cincybearcat said:

The only people that think Warren owned anybody during that election are those that want free everything.  There were plenty of challenges to Warren and Bernie that went mostly unanswered...well they answered but it was not a good look for them.

I have no idea why the democrats seem hell bent on losing in 2020.  Free healthcare for illegal immigrants? What?  Free health care for anyone that shows up at the door? What?  Free public universities? What? Eliminate ALL student loan debt? What?

These certainly are big idea.  But just because an idea is big doesn't mean it can't also be very bad.  The Dems already lost the most winnable election in a long time.  And they seem on the path to lose an election that should be even more winnable.  Please don't give me Trump for 4 more years as you push towards an extremely left (some socialism) agenda.  I've already been willing to compromise some of my core beliefs to vote Democrat...please meet me half way.

Big idea to be able to show up at the hospital door in need of care and getting it? EXISTS TODAY IN BETTER OFF COUNTRIES
Big idea to have "free public universities"? EXISTS TODAY IN BETTER OFF COUNTRIES
Big idea to eliminate all student loan debt? EXISTS TODAY IN.... eh.... that's crazy. They need to drop that.

I don't think this social-liberal agenda (that skewed America sees as burning red hot communism or close to it) will make you lose an election. People voted for a black man in your country. And we have all seen the movie A Time to Kill. So I do believe that they can vote for a man or woman with sound social-liberal/democratic values that benefit the people, and the world. Believe you me. I do believe. 

At a minimum, student loan interest should be tax deductible.  Right now you can only deduct $2,500 and if your income exceeds $80K you don't even get to deduct that.

In Sweden everyone loans the student loan (weird wording) from the state. 
Just heard that people actually takes out that loan, but works on weekends etc to live on instead while studying to use the loaned money to buy a flat after finishing school. Never known of anyone actually doing it, but I guess  he god damn millennials are more savvy than my generation were.

That is how "generous" the loan and interests are compared to private lenders/banks. 

Are student loans from private companies in the US?

Most are.  The federal government will loan you around $27K over four years at a low interest rate.  If you need more than that then you have to go to a private company where the rates are much higher.

It isn't unusual for students to graduate with $80K in debt.  It's a ridiculous set up.  Most of the kids aren't aware of the consequences and their parents aren't smart enough to let them avoid it.  That's America.

You're free to make smart decisions or stupid ones.  If you let your kid go to out state or private at 40k plus per year,  to major in English,  you can do so.  Someone will lend you money at a rate commensurate with your risk level.  I wouldn't want my tax dollars to support stupid decisions,  to be honest.  

I would be good with community college and state university for "in need" degrees for those kids below a certain income level. 

Ledbetterman10

Wrong thread

Spiritual_Chaos

Wrong thread it seems

Ledbetterman10

Yeah we'll move to the other one...

Gern Blansten

mrussel1 said:

Gern Blansten said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

Gern Blansten said:

Spiritual_Chaos said:

cincybearcat said:

The only people that think Warren owned anybody during that election are those that want free everything.  There were plenty of challenges to Warren and Bernie that went mostly unanswered...well they answered but it was not a good look for them.

I have no idea why the democrats seem hell bent on losing in 2020.  Free healthcare for illegal immigrants? What?  Free health care for anyone that shows up at the door? What?  Free public universities? What? Eliminate ALL student loan debt? What?

These certainly are big idea.  But just because an idea is big doesn't mean it can't also be very bad.  The Dems already lost the most winnable election in a long time.  And they seem on the path to lose an election that should be even more winnable.  Please don't give me Trump for 4 more years as you push towards an extremely left (some socialism) agenda.  I've already been willing to compromise some of my core beliefs to vote Democrat...please meet me half way.

Big idea to be able to show up at the hospital door in need of care and getting it? EXISTS TODAY IN BETTER OFF COUNTRIES
Big idea to have "free public universities"? EXISTS TODAY IN BETTER OFF COUNTRIES
Big idea to eliminate all student loan debt? EXISTS TODAY IN.... eh.... that's crazy. They need to drop that.

I don't think this social-liberal agenda (that skewed America sees as burning red hot communism or close to it) will make you lose an election. People voted for a black man in your country. And we have all seen the movie A Time to Kill. So I do believe that they can vote for a man or woman with sound social-liberal/democratic values that benefit the people, and the world. Believe you me. I do believe. 

At a minimum, student loan interest should be tax deductible.  Right now you can only deduct $2,500 and if your income exceeds $80K you don't even get to deduct that.

In Sweden everyone loans the student loan (weird wording) from the state. 
Just heard that people actually takes out that loan, but works on weekends etc to live on instead while studying to use the loaned money to buy a flat after finishing school. Never known of anyone actually doing it, but I guess  he god damn millennials are more savvy than my generation were.

That is how "generous" the loan and interests are compared to private lenders/banks. 

Are student loans from private companies in the US?

Most are.  The federal government will loan you around $27K over four years at a low interest rate.  If you need more than that then you have to go to a private company where the rates are much higher.

It isn't unusual for students to graduate with $80K in debt.  It's a ridiculous set up.  Most of the kids aren't aware of the consequences and their parents aren't smart enough to let them avoid it.  That's America.

You're free to make smart decisions or stupid ones.  If you let your kid go to out state or private at 40k plus per year,  to major in English,  you can do so.  Someone will lend you money at a rate commensurate with your risk level.  I wouldn't want my tax dollars to support stupid decisions,  to be honest.  

I would be good with community college and state university for "in need" degrees for those kids below a certain income level. 

yeah I can't believe the number of middle income people I talk to that let their kids go to out of state schools.  For some reason a lot of Indiana residents (around me at least) send their kids to Alabama.  Unless you get a scholarship that drops out of state tuition down to match in state tuition it is completely idiotic to go out of state.

dignin

mrussel1 said:

dignin said:

mcgruff10 said:

I have zero interest to watch the debates on tv. I ll check out the summaries in the news tomorrow.  

Exactly, why make up my own mind and develop my own thoughts. I need it spoon fed to me.

I agree with Scruffy. there's no voting so it doesn't matter to me right now.  Im interested to hear analysis but I don't care what the candidates say.  I have plenty of time to decide than waste my team on this. 

My comment was more about how the media was going to spin the debate. And depending on what news source you gravitate to that's the spin you're going to get...I hate the term "echo chamber", but it fits here.

mrussel1

dignin said:

mrussel1 said:

dignin said:

mcgruff10 said:

I have zero interest to watch the debates on tv. I ll check out the summaries in the news tomorrow.  

Exactly, why make up my own mind and develop my own thoughts. I need it spoon fed to me.

I agree with Scruffy. there's no voting so it doesn't matter to me right now.  Im interested to hear analysis but I don't care what the candidates say.  I have plenty of time to decide than waste my team on this. 

My comment was more about how the media was going to spin the debate. And depending on what news source you gravitate to that's the spin you're going to get...I hate the term "echo chamber", but it fits here.

Im interested in analysis as an observer rather than looking for information.  I cam only speak for me obviously.  My opinions on issues are locked in,  so I'll vote for the person closest to that,  come primary time in my state.  
It is really early to devote time to this,  imo. But I would probably be considered politically engaged,  generally. 

bbiggs

mrussel1 said:

I like that Sanders combed his hair last night.  That was a nice touch. 

He sure did...with a balloon. 

Disclaimer:  that is not my original thought. I heard it elsewhere a while back, but it’s funny as shit. 

jeffbr

mrussel1 said:

dignin said:

mrussel1 said:

dignin said:

mcgruff10 said:

I have zero interest to watch the debates on tv. I ll check out the summaries in the news tomorrow.  

Exactly, why make up my own mind and develop my own thoughts. I need it spoon fed to me.

I agree with Scruffy. there's no voting so it doesn't matter to me right now.  Im interested to hear analysis but I don't care what the candidates say.  I have plenty of time to decide than waste my team on this. 

My comment was more about how the media was going to spin the debate. And depending on what news source you gravitate to that's the spin you're going to get...I hate the term "echo chamber", but it fits here.

Im interested in analysis as an observer rather than looking for information.  I cam only speak for me obviously.  My opinions on issues are locked in,  so I'll vote for the person closest to that,  come primary time in my state.  
It is really early to devote time to this,  imo. But I would probably be considered politically engaged,  generally. 

I agree with the above. I'll also add that having 20 clowns in the clown car provides little time for any one of them to have salient policy discussions. These debates, especially with a 1 minute hard stop per candidate is great for creating sound bites, one-liners, and zingers. So I mostly skip these debates and tune in periodically to see if anyone is bleeding. I'll be much more interested when the field is down to 4 or 5 candidates who can have more meaningful debates.  Looking forward to the next round of cuts to eliminate some of the chaff.

Spiritual_Chaos

Who do we think will stop their campaigns after this CNN debate? Maybe a bit early to ask with one being tonight, ofc.

HughFreakingDillon

Every time these US primaries come up, I realize that in Canada:

-the party chooses its own leader in a private vote
-the election campaign trail itself lasts about 6 weeks. 

the US system is just so preposterous. half of every presidential term is spent on looking at the next election. it's so absurd. 

Spiritual_Chaos

HughFreakingDillon said:

Every time these US primaries come up, I realize that in Canada:

-the party chooses its own leader in a private vote
-the election campaign trail itself lasts about 6 weeks. 

the US system is just so preposterous. half of every presidential term is spent on looking at the next election. it's so absurd. 

Same here, members of the party decide on the partys leader. 
The election is something similar in length I guess. Maybe a bit longer.

Our TV debates are as stupid though. Haha.

Ledbetterman10

Spiritual_Chaos said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

Every time these US primaries come up, I realize that in Canada:

-the party chooses its own leader in a private vote
-the election campaign trail itself lasts about 6 weeks. 

the US system is just so preposterous. half of every presidential term is spent on looking at the next election. it's so absurd. 

Same here, members of the party decide on the partys leader. 
The election is something similar in length I guess. Maybe a bit longer.

Our TV debates are as stupid though. Haha.

YOUR TV debates are stupid? I've never seen them so I'll have to take your word, but ours get stupider with each one. Frankly, they've been kind of embarrassing. 

I like that we vote on primary candidates rather than just having the party choose. But I hate the process of how spread out all the votes are. I think it should all be on the same day, or do ten states on this Tuesday, ten states on the next Tuesday, etc. 

Take my friend in 2016 for example. He liked Jeb Bush for the Republican nomination. The problem though is by time it was time for Pennsylvania to vote, Bush had long been vanquished. That's a dumb system. So people in Iowa and New Hampshire rejected Bush, so supporters in other states don't even have a chance to vote for him? 

And I completely agree with Hugh about the length being ridiculous. This primary cycle will last for a year and a half (early 2019 through summer 2020), then the general election campaign only lasts three or four months (Summer 2020 through November 2020). How silly is that? 

mrussel1

HughFreakingDillon said:

Every time these US primaries come up, I realize that in Canada:

-the party chooses its own leader in a private vote
-the election campaign trail itself lasts about 6 weeks. 

the US system is just so preposterous. half of every presidential term is spent on looking at the next election. it's so absurd. 

That's an interesting perspective.  So the people have no direct voice in your leader.  How's that better?

HughFreakingDillon

mrussel1 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

Every time these US primaries come up, I realize that in Canada:

-the party chooses its own leader in a private vote
-the election campaign trail itself lasts about 6 weeks. 

the US system is just so preposterous. half of every presidential term is spent on looking at the next election. it's so absurd. 

That's an interesting perspective.  So the people have no direct voice in your leader.  How's that better?

that part isn't necessarily better, or worse, it's the length of time that is absolutely ridiculous. obviously, in the US, each party wants to know which candidate for leadership is most electable, which obviously makes sense. But I think if you have a finger on the pulse of your party's supporters and where you want it to go, you probably already know that. On the other hand, 300 million is a tad more than 30 million. 

to me, it's all tied to money.