Is America the greatest country in the world?

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  • Spiritual_ChaosSpiritual_Chaos Posts: 12,317
    edited March 9
    mcgruff10 said:

    1. No way we could mobilize our troops in the time period.  2.  No way we are taking on Germany and the Soviet Union. 3. At this point in the war we are minding our own business and enduring the Great Depression. 
     I mean we eventually did get involved a little over two years later and fought all over the world.
    Tell me again how the Swedish armed forces helped to defeat the Axis powers?

    1. Us mobilizing our troops wouldn't matter - remember, both Germany and the Allies had plans ready to invade Sweden.
    2. But you expect Sweden to take on Germany during their military peak?
    3. We were also trying to keep minding our own business by staying out of the war.
    Post edited by Spiritual_Chaos on
    The man they call my enemy. I've seen his eyes, he looks just like me - A mirror...
  • Meltdown99Meltdown99 None Of Your Business...Posts: 5,853
    mcgruff10 said:
    rgambs said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    I was just reading about on Sweden's role in World War 2 and found the following: Was Sweden really "neutral" during World War 2?  

    Sweden's role in the Second World War had its darker side, it allowed the Germans to transit troops, supplies and communications through the country.

    Sweden also profited from the Holocaust. It is known that Wallenberg's relatives made money converting Nazi gold into Swedish crowns and that Sweden provided iron ore and ball bearings to the Nazis. Swedish documents reveal that some Swedes actually sided with the Nazis and volunteered to fight for Hitler. Some Swedes were members of the Waffen SS and served in police batallions.

    A committee was established by the Swedish government in 1997 to investigate the transfer of Nazi gold to Sweden during the war. It is reported that Sweden received 38 tons of gold from Nazi Germany (worth today US $430 million). Many Swedish companies, such as Ericsson, AGA and Hasselblad Cameras, as well as the country's paper and wood industries traded with Nazi Germany. Swedish jewelers bought stolen diamonds, which were smuggled into Sweden by civil servants working at the German legation in Stockholm.

    An exhibition on Sweden and the Holocaust, opening in Lund, not far from where Chavka Folman-Raban enjoyed her first weeks of freedom, aims to shed light on this darker side of Sweden’s relationship to Nazism. The exhibition, accompanied by seminars and publication of new research, shows how Swedish industry benefited from the war and how Swedish scientific institutions were leaders in the fields of race biology and eugenic research. 

    The exhibition also shows how Nazi ideals found Swedish sympathizers and how Sweden limited freedom of speech, and introduced immigration laws which turned away asylum seekers from Germany, many of whom were later murdered in concentration camps.



    Never knew this.

    How very chickenshit of them (if Spirtual's explanation for cozying up to Nazis is accurate). I mean... America (and Canada I might add) sent their sons abroad to fight for life and liberty on the very continent Sweden tucked their tails on.
    Chickenshit/betraying our Norweigan and Finnish brothers or a correct decision to stay out of the war - the discussion about it will never stop here in Sweden. 

    Fun fact: Only time I had to endure a "sweden hater" was when I lived in Oslo for a short while and stood in cue in a supermarket. The old man behind me heard me speaking swedish and started attacking me about how much he hated Sweden and how Sweden acted in the war and towards Norway. 

    Should be noted that during our neutral stance we also helped the Allied.
    Well, you should know that the discussion is settled in the rest of the world, and "correct decision" is not a phrase that ever gets used.
    I do not think you are an authority or well advertised in what is being settled in the world or not regarding Sweden's decision to protect its country from war and its citizens from death.

    And tell me again, where was the US before their own country got attacked? Why didn't you people come to the aid of Poland in 1939 if your're not chickenshits?
    Why on earth would we defend Poland?  They were conquered in thirty days by two countries that had enormous armies.  1. No way we could mobilize our troops in the time period.  2.  No way we are taking on Germany and the Soviet Union. 3. At this point in the war we are minding our own business and enduring the Great Depression.
     I mean we eventually did get involved a little over two years later and fought all over the world.
    Tell me again how the Swedish armed forces helped to defeat the Axis powers?

    You are probably more knowledgeable on this, I remember reading an article that the US military after WW1 was in peacetime mode and was not prepared for WW2, hence their late entrance.  But when the US industrial base kicked and started manufacturing the tools of war, probably in record time...
  • Meltdown99Meltdown99 None Of Your Business...Posts: 5,853
    rgambs said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    I was just reading about on Sweden's role in World War 2 and found the following: Was Sweden really "neutral" during World War 2?  

    Sweden's role in the Second World War had its darker side, it allowed the Germans to transit troops, supplies and communications through the country.

    Sweden also profited from the Holocaust. It is known that Wallenberg's relatives made money converting Nazi gold into Swedish crowns and that Sweden provided iron ore and ball bearings to the Nazis. Swedish documents reveal that some Swedes actually sided with the Nazis and volunteered to fight for Hitler. Some Swedes were members of the Waffen SS and served in police batallions.

    A committee was established by the Swedish government in 1997 to investigate the transfer of Nazi gold to Sweden during the war. It is reported that Sweden received 38 tons of gold from Nazi Germany (worth today US $430 million). Many Swedish companies, such as Ericsson, AGA and Hasselblad Cameras, as well as the country's paper and wood industries traded with Nazi Germany. Swedish jewelers bought stolen diamonds, which were smuggled into Sweden by civil servants working at the German legation in Stockholm.

    An exhibition on Sweden and the Holocaust, opening in Lund, not far from where Chavka Folman-Raban enjoyed her first weeks of freedom, aims to shed light on this darker side of Sweden’s relationship to Nazism. The exhibition, accompanied by seminars and publication of new research, shows how Swedish industry benefited from the war and how Swedish scientific institutions were leaders in the fields of race biology and eugenic research. 

    The exhibition also shows how Nazi ideals found Swedish sympathizers and how Sweden limited freedom of speech, and introduced immigration laws which turned away asylum seekers from Germany, many of whom were later murdered in concentration camps.



    Never knew this.

    How very chickenshit of them (if Spirtual's explanation for cozying up to Nazis is accurate). I mean... America (and Canada I might add) sent their sons abroad to fight for life and liberty on the very continent Sweden tucked their tails on.
    Chickenshit/betraying our Norweigan and Finnish brothers or a correct decision to stay out of the war - the discussion about it will never stop here in Sweden. 

    Fun fact: Only time I had to endure a "sweden hater" was when I lived in Oslo for a short while and stood in cue in a supermarket. The old man behind me heard me speaking swedish and started attacking me about how much he hated Sweden and how Sweden acted in the war and towards Norway. 

    Should be noted that during our neutral stance we also helped the Allied.
    Well, you should know that the discussion is settled in the rest of the world, and "correct decision" is not a phrase that ever gets used.
    I do not think you are an authority or well advertised in what is being settled in the world or not regarding Sweden's decision to protect its country from war and its citizens from death.

    And tell me again, where was the US before their own country got attacked? Why didn't you people come to the aid of Poland in 1939 if your're not chickenshits?
    Has it ever occurred to you that the US delayed entrance was a good thing?  My Uncles who served in WW2, in which they said very little, always said by 1944 everyone was tired of the war and just wanted to get home, they strongly believed their late entrance brought in much-needed men to finish ICE off, I mean the Nazi's...Not to mention fresh supplies, plenty of war machinery to get the job done...so there is that. By the way, yes your country was chickenshit...
  • mcgruff10mcgruff10 New JerseyPosts: 18,629
    mcgruff10 said:
    rgambs said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    I was just reading about on Sweden's role in World War 2 and found the following: Was Sweden really "neutral" during World War 2?  

    Sweden's role in the Second World War had its darker side, it allowed the Germans to transit troops, supplies and communications through the country.

    Sweden also profited from the Holocaust. It is known that Wallenberg's relatives made money converting Nazi gold into Swedish crowns and that Sweden provided iron ore and ball bearings to the Nazis. Swedish documents reveal that some Swedes actually sided with the Nazis and volunteered to fight for Hitler. Some Swedes were members of the Waffen SS and served in police batallions.

    A committee was established by the Swedish government in 1997 to investigate the transfer of Nazi gold to Sweden during the war. It is reported that Sweden received 38 tons of gold from Nazi Germany (worth today US $430 million). Many Swedish companies, such as Ericsson, AGA and Hasselblad Cameras, as well as the country's paper and wood industries traded with Nazi Germany. Swedish jewelers bought stolen diamonds, which were smuggled into Sweden by civil servants working at the German legation in Stockholm.

    An exhibition on Sweden and the Holocaust, opening in Lund, not far from where Chavka Folman-Raban enjoyed her first weeks of freedom, aims to shed light on this darker side of Sweden’s relationship to Nazism. The exhibition, accompanied by seminars and publication of new research, shows how Swedish industry benefited from the war and how Swedish scientific institutions were leaders in the fields of race biology and eugenic research. 

    The exhibition also shows how Nazi ideals found Swedish sympathizers and how Sweden limited freedom of speech, and introduced immigration laws which turned away asylum seekers from Germany, many of whom were later murdered in concentration camps.



    Never knew this.

    How very chickenshit of them (if Spirtual's explanation for cozying up to Nazis is accurate). I mean... America (and Canada I might add) sent their sons abroad to fight for life and liberty on the very continent Sweden tucked their tails on.
    Chickenshit/betraying our Norweigan and Finnish brothers or a correct decision to stay out of the war - the discussion about it will never stop here in Sweden. 

    Fun fact: Only time I had to endure a "sweden hater" was when I lived in Oslo for a short while and stood in cue in a supermarket. The old man behind me heard me speaking swedish and started attacking me about how much he hated Sweden and how Sweden acted in the war and towards Norway. 

    Should be noted that during our neutral stance we also helped the Allied.
    Well, you should know that the discussion is settled in the rest of the world, and "correct decision" is not a phrase that ever gets used.
    I do not think you are an authority or well advertised in what is being settled in the world or not regarding Sweden's decision to protect its country from war and its citizens from death.

    And tell me again, where was the US before their own country got attacked? Why didn't you people come to the aid of Poland in 1939 if your're not chickenshits?
    Why on earth would we defend Poland?  They were conquered in thirty days by two countries that had enormous armies.  1. No way we could mobilize our troops in the time period.  2.  No way we are taking on Germany and the Soviet Union. 3. At this point in the war we are minding our own business and enduring the Great Depression.
     I mean we eventually did get involved a little over two years later and fought all over the world.
    Tell me again how the Swedish armed forces helped to defeat the Axis powers?

    You are probably more knowledgeable on this, I remember reading an article that the US military after WW1 was in peacetime mode and was not prepared for WW2, hence their late entrance.  But when the US industrial base kicked and started manufacturing the tools of war, probably in record time...
    All correct sir.  Our armed forces weren't prepared on December 7, 1941 so imagine how much less prepared they were two years earlier.  Going from a peace time to a war time economy in such a quick amount of time was really mind blowing.  The amount of planes, tanks, etc that were built all across the U.S. was really astonishing. (and between 1939 to 1941 we had started the Lend Lease program to Great Britain , china and later on the soviet union)  And of course many other countries did the same with their war manufacturing.  Hell when Germany invaded the Soviet Union the Russians literally picked up their factories and moved them hundreds of miles to the east.  
    I'll ride the wave where it takes me......
  • mcgruff10mcgruff10 New JerseyPosts: 18,629
    mcgruff10 said:

    1. No way we could mobilize our troops in the time period.  2.  No way we are taking on Germany and the Soviet Union. 3. At this point in the war we are minding our own business and enduring the Great Depression. 
     I mean we eventually did get involved a little over two years later and fought all over the world.
    Tell me again how the Swedish armed forces helped to defeat the Axis powers?

    1. Us mobilizing our troops wouldn't matter - remember, both Germany and the Allies had plans ready to invade Sweden.
    2. But you expect Sweden to take on Germany during their military peak?
    3. We were also trying to keep minding our own business by staying out of the war.
    Yeah but the blaring difference was that the war was in your backyard, not ours (and yet we still helped).  I mean your neighbors, Denmark, Norway and Finland were all at war.  If Canada gets invaded the US isn't sitting it out.  
    I'll ride the wave where it takes me......
  • Meltdown99Meltdown99 None Of Your Business...Posts: 5,853
    mcgruff10 said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    rgambs said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    I was just reading about on Sweden's role in World War 2 and found the following: Was Sweden really "neutral" during World War 2?  

    Sweden's role in the Second World War had its darker side, it allowed the Germans to transit troops, supplies and communications through the country.

    Sweden also profited from the Holocaust. It is known that Wallenberg's relatives made money converting Nazi gold into Swedish crowns and that Sweden provided iron ore and ball bearings to the Nazis. Swedish documents reveal that some Swedes actually sided with the Nazis and volunteered to fight for Hitler. Some Swedes were members of the Waffen SS and served in police batallions.

    A committee was established by the Swedish government in 1997 to investigate the transfer of Nazi gold to Sweden during the war. It is reported that Sweden received 38 tons of gold from Nazi Germany (worth today US $430 million). Many Swedish companies, such as Ericsson, AGA and Hasselblad Cameras, as well as the country's paper and wood industries traded with Nazi Germany. Swedish jewelers bought stolen diamonds, which were smuggled into Sweden by civil servants working at the German legation in Stockholm.

    An exhibition on Sweden and the Holocaust, opening in Lund, not far from where Chavka Folman-Raban enjoyed her first weeks of freedom, aims to shed light on this darker side of Sweden’s relationship to Nazism. The exhibition, accompanied by seminars and publication of new research, shows how Swedish industry benefited from the war and how Swedish scientific institutions were leaders in the fields of race biology and eugenic research. 

    The exhibition also shows how Nazi ideals found Swedish sympathizers and how Sweden limited freedom of speech, and introduced immigration laws which turned away asylum seekers from Germany, many of whom were later murdered in concentration camps.



    Never knew this.

    How very chickenshit of them (if Spirtual's explanation for cozying up to Nazis is accurate). I mean... America (and Canada I might add) sent their sons abroad to fight for life and liberty on the very continent Sweden tucked their tails on.
    Chickenshit/betraying our Norweigan and Finnish brothers or a correct decision to stay out of the war - the discussion about it will never stop here in Sweden. 

    Fun fact: Only time I had to endure a "sweden hater" was when I lived in Oslo for a short while and stood in cue in a supermarket. The old man behind me heard me speaking swedish and started attacking me about how much he hated Sweden and how Sweden acted in the war and towards Norway. 

    Should be noted that during our neutral stance we also helped the Allied.
    Well, you should know that the discussion is settled in the rest of the world, and "correct decision" is not a phrase that ever gets used.
    I do not think you are an authority or well advertised in what is being settled in the world or not regarding Sweden's decision to protect its country from war and its citizens from death.

    And tell me again, where was the US before their own country got attacked? Why didn't you people come to the aid of Poland in 1939 if your're not chickenshits?
    Why on earth would we defend Poland?  They were conquered in thirty days by two countries that had enormous armies.  1. No way we could mobilize our troops in the time period.  2.  No way we are taking on Germany and the Soviet Union. 3. At this point in the war we are minding our own business and enduring the Great Depression.
     I mean we eventually did get involved a little over two years later and fought all over the world.
    Tell me again how the Swedish armed forces helped to defeat the Axis powers?

    You are probably more knowledgeable on this, I remember reading an article that the US military after WW1 was in peacetime mode and was not prepared for WW2, hence their late entrance.  But when the US industrial base kicked and started manufacturing the tools of war, probably in record time...
    All correct sir.  Our armed forces weren't prepared on December 7, 1941 so imagine how much less prepared they were two years earlier.  Going from a peace time to a war time economy in such a quick amount of time was really mind blowing.  The amount of planes, tanks, etc that were built all across the U.S. was really astonishing. (and between 1939 to 1941 we had started the Lend Lease program to Great Britain , china and later on the soviet union)  And of course many other countries did the same with their war manufacturing.  Hell when Germany invaded the Soviet Union the Russians literally picked up their factories and moved them hundreds of miles to the east.  
    Thanks for the short history lesson.  That's why keeping a manufacturing economy is important.  I'd like to say WW3 will never happen, but history suggests its best to prepared...
  • Spiritual_ChaosSpiritual_Chaos Posts: 12,317
    mcgruff10 said:
    mcgruff10 said:

    1. No way we could mobilize our troops in the time period.  2.  No way we are taking on Germany and the Soviet Union. 3. At this point in the war we are minding our own business and enduring the Great Depression. 
     I mean we eventually did get involved a little over two years later and fought all over the world.
    Tell me again how the Swedish armed forces helped to defeat the Axis powers?

    1. Us mobilizing our troops wouldn't matter - remember, both Germany and the Allies had plans ready to invade Sweden.
    2. But you expect Sweden to take on Germany during their military peak?
    3. We were also trying to keep minding our own business by staying out of the war.
    Yeah but the blaring difference was that the war was in your backyard, not ours (and yet we still helped).  I mean your neighbors, Denmark, Norway and Finland were all at war.  If Canada gets invaded the US isn't sitting it out.  
    I think there is a chance you would sit that out. I mean your country can wreck the middle east and then stand by and gloat and use Sweden (and Germany) as warning examples when we take care of the refugees fleeing your little party. What kind of country would do someything like that?

    And, the other side of your coin (KISS reference) would be that keeping neutral in the midst of the chaos is harder than sitting back across the atlantic chilling out. Our stance was to stay neutral and that we would get wrecked trying to stand against Germany. So a decision was made for the sake of our country and its population. By the way - we took care of a hell of a lot refugees and children from our neighbouring countries during this time. How is helping out all south american children going? Oh right, they're actually dying in cages right?

    Not saying Swedens decision was the right one. With those events being far off memories it is easy to be all "Ofc we should have entered the war!" --  But not being totally wrecked and overtaken by Germany is an argument to have in mind and what won at the time. And I know you love that Trumps is talking with Kim (with your: "not bad in my book") -- you know Swedens neutral stance in the world helped out with making that meeting a possibility? 

    Another factor is Sweden's famous policy of neutrality: the Nordic nation has a history (and a sometimes controversial history) of avoiding picking sides in conflicts. In the case of North Korea, that has helped Sweden to be a leader in attempting to thaw relations between the communist state and western nations. /.../ The Swedes also serve an important role for the US in North Korea, working as a Protecting Power for America in the country, which includes providing consular responsibility for US citizens there. It performs the same role for Canada and Australia.


    (Should be noted that we were not neutral in the attack on Finland, Sweden made an exemption and was instead "non-belligerent" which ment we helped out with materiel but the people sent was not ordered but volunteers.

    In total, from the Swedish military were handed over to Finland (in addition to the voluntary corps stock), among other 131,000 rifles with 42 million cartridges, 132 field guns, 100 anti-aircraft guns, 85 armored guards with 256,000 grenades and 8 aircraft)


    The man they call my enemy. I've seen his eyes, he looks just like me - A mirror...
  • But if I'm reading correctly... being 'neutral' meant playing on both sides of the fence- not just 'unattached' in a truly neutral manner. This wasn't a case of 'good people on both sides'.

    It was a crappy time no question, but let's not play 'neutrality' as anything to be admired. There was a clear and imminent threat at your that needed to be addressed.
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • josevolutionjosevolution Posts: 21,077
    No 
    jesus greets me looks just like me ....
  • Spiritual_ChaosSpiritual_Chaos Posts: 12,317
    But if I'm reading correctly... being 'neutral' meant playing on both sides of the fence- not just 'unattached' in a truly neutral manner. This wasn't a case of 'good people on both sides'.

    It was a crappy time no question, but let's not play 'neutrality' as anything to be admired. There was a clear and imminent threat at your that needed to be addressed.
    Yes you are reading it correctly, concessions was made to stay out of the war. And Sweden was entangled with Germany, it was one of our big trading partners. A lot of our exporting went to Germany.

    (I don't think anyone is admiring it.)
    The man they call my enemy. I've seen his eyes, he looks just like me - A mirror...
  • But if I'm reading correctly... being 'neutral' meant playing on both sides of the fence- not just 'unattached' in a truly neutral manner. This wasn't a case of 'good people on both sides'.

    It was a crappy time no question, but let's not play 'neutrality' as anything to be admired. There was a clear and imminent threat at your that needed to be addressed.
    Yes you are reading it correctly, concessions was made to stay out of the war. And Sweden was entangled with Germany, it was one of our big trading partners. A lot of our exporting went to Germany.

    (I don't think anyone is admiring it.)

    Every country has its shameful past, Spiritual.

    Nobody (at least I'm not) is condemning the people of today for the crimes and sins of our forefathers.
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • rgambsrgambs Posts: 11,866
    But if I'm reading correctly... being 'neutral' meant playing on both sides of the fence- not just 'unattached' in a truly neutral manner. This wasn't a case of 'good people on both sides'.

    It was a crappy time no question, but let's not play 'neutrality' as anything to be admired. There was a clear and imminent threat at your that needed to be addressed.
    Yes you are reading it correctly, concessions was made to stay out of the war. And Sweden was entangled with Germany, it was one of our big trading partners. A lot of our exporting went to Germany.

    (I don't think anyone is admiring it.)

    Every country has its shameful past, Spiritual.

    Nobody (at least I'm not) is condemning the people of today for the crimes and sins of our forefathers.
    Agreed.
    The point was obviously thoroughly conveyed though, SC immediately went on the defensive and justified Sweden's inaction and war profiting.  That jump to justify, rather than just owning the poor choices should teach SC a good bit about responses in this thread, but I doubt it will.

    Monkey Driven, Call this Living?
  • josevolutionjosevolution Posts: 21,077
    But if I'm reading correctly... being 'neutral' meant playing on both sides of the fence- not just 'unattached' in a truly neutral manner. This wasn't a case of 'good people on both sides'.

    It was a crappy time no question, but let's not play 'neutrality' as anything to be admired. There was a clear and imminent threat at your that needed to be addressed.
    Yes you are reading it correctly, concessions was made to stay out of the war. And Sweden was entangled with Germany, it was one of our big trading partners. A lot of our exporting went to Germany.

    (I don't think anyone is admiring it.)

    Every country has its shameful past, Spiritual.

    Nobody (at least I'm not) is condemning the people of today for the crimes and sins of our forefathers.
    Agreed this mighty country here has a lot to be ashamed of ..
    jesus greets me looks just like me ....
  • Spiritual_ChaosSpiritual_Chaos Posts: 12,317
    edited March 9
    rgambs said:
    But if I'm reading correctly... being 'neutral' meant playing on both sides of the fence- not just 'unattached' in a truly neutral manner. This wasn't a case of 'good people on both sides'.

    It was a crappy time no question, but let's not play 'neutrality' as anything to be admired. There was a clear and imminent threat at your that needed to be addressed.
    Yes you are reading it correctly, concessions was made to stay out of the war. And Sweden was entangled with Germany, it was one of our big trading partners. A lot of our exporting went to Germany.

    (I don't think anyone is admiring it.)

    Every country has its shameful past, Spiritual.

    Nobody (at least I'm not) is condemning the people of today for the crimes and sins of our forefathers.
    Agreed.
    The point was obviously thoroughly conveyed though, SC immediately went on the defensive and justified Sweden's inaction and war profiting.  That jump to justify, rather than just owning the poor choices should teach SC a good bit about responses in this thread, but I doubt it will.

    It's not my role to own poor choices being made by a country 70 years ago. How would I even go about doing that...

    I have also, to my knowledge not said what my own opinion regarding the choice to stay neutral was. I was just arguing for the reasons that existed to stay neutral and filled in some facts regarding the situation.

    I do not admire the fact Swedish companies exported iron to the German war machine. But I can still lay out the reasons for why Sweden did as they did.
    Post edited by Spiritual_Chaos on
    The man they call my enemy. I've seen his eyes, he looks just like me - A mirror...
  • josevolutionjosevolution Posts: 21,077
    rgambs said:
    But if I'm reading correctly... being 'neutral' meant playing on both sides of the fence- not just 'unattached' in a truly neutral manner. This wasn't a case of 'good people on both sides'.

    It was a crappy time no question, but let's not play 'neutrality' as anything to be admired. There was a clear and imminent threat at your that needed to be addressed.
    Yes you are reading it correctly, concessions was made to stay out of the war. And Sweden was entangled with Germany, it was one of our big trading partners. A lot of our exporting went to Germany.

    (I don't think anyone is admiring it.)

    Every country has its shameful past, Spiritual.

    Nobody (at least I'm not) is condemning the people of today for the crimes and sins of our forefathers.
    Agreed.
    The point was obviously thoroughly conveyed though, SC immediately went on the defensive and justified Sweden's inaction and war profiting.  That jump to justify, rather than just owning the poor choices should teach SC a good bit about responses in this thread, but I doubt it will.

    It's not my role to own poor choices being made by a country 70 years ago. How would I even go about doing that...

    I have also, to my knowledge not said what my own opinion regarding the choice to stay neutral was. I was just arguing for the reasons that existed to stay neutral and filled in some facts regarding the situation.

    I do not admire the fact Swedish companies exported iron to the Germany war machine.
    I’m not sure how rgams came to that conclusion I thought you made your point very clear ..
    jesus greets me looks just like me ....
  • Meltdown99Meltdown99 None Of Your Business...Posts: 5,853
    I am curious about 1 thing SC, how come Sweden has not joined NATO?  Unless I'm mistaken.  And if war breaks out in Europe and you get dragged into or attacked, do you expect NATO countries to respond?  Now I know NATO would come to your aid, but still why not join?
  • Spiritual_ChaosSpiritual_Chaos Posts: 12,317
    edited March 9
    I am curious about 1 thing SC, how come Sweden has not joined NATO?  Unless I'm mistaken.  And if war breaks out in Europe and you get dragged into or attacked, do you expect NATO countries to respond?  Now I know NATO would come to your aid, but still why not join?
    Because of the thing being discussed on the last pages - staying Neutral.

    There are forces on the centre/right that do want us to join. The question pops up every election. But the public opinion isn't there or any form of majority in parliament. 

    But the support for NATO is growing stronger. Some Parties has flipped opinion, and public opinion is getting higher. 

    Here is what the organization "Swedish Peace" says:

    NATO is exclusively a military organization whose core rests on deterrence, nuclear weapons and collective self-defense. The United States, a country that violates international law and pursues an impulsive and whimsical foreign policy, has a leading role in NATO. Turkey and Hungary are two more member states whose development is deeply problematic. Swedish Peace believes that a Swedish NATO membership risks limiting Sweden's foreign policy independence, that it can contribute to increasing tensions in the local area and increases the risk of Sweden being forced into an armed conflict. 

    And here is what the party "The Liberals" who are the strongest advocates for NATO says:


    Already today, we have a close and close cooperation with NATO through, for example, joint exercises, the host country agreement and Swedish participation in international efforts under NATO leadership. Therefore, we have no credible alliance-freedom. But at the same time, we cannot influence the organization because we are not members. Nor can we take advantage of the security policy guarantees that NATO members give each other.
    Post edited by Spiritual_Chaos on
    The man they call my enemy. I've seen his eyes, he looks just like me - A mirror...
  • Spiritual_ChaosSpiritual_Chaos Posts: 12,317
    YOU CANT BE NEUTRAL ON A MOVING TRAIN
    The man they call my enemy. I've seen his eyes, he looks just like me - A mirror...
  • Why stand on a silent platform? Fight the war, f**k the norm.
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 26,932
    "Resist Much, Obey Little"
    “Finding beauty in a broken world is creating beauty in the world we find.”
    -Terry Tempest Williams
    ***********
    M.I.T.S.






  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BCPosts: 46,854
    mcgruff10 said:
    rgambs said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    I was just reading about on Sweden's role in World War 2 and found the following: Was Sweden really "neutral" during World War 2?  

    Sweden's role in the Second World War had its darker side, it allowed the Germans to transit troops, supplies and communications through the country.

    Sweden also profited from the Holocaust. It is known that Wallenberg's relatives made money converting Nazi gold into Swedish crowns and that Sweden provided iron ore and ball bearings to the Nazis. Swedish documents reveal that some Swedes actually sided with the Nazis and volunteered to fight for Hitler. Some Swedes were members of the Waffen SS and served in police batallions.

    A committee was established by the Swedish government in 1997 to investigate the transfer of Nazi gold to Sweden during the war. It is reported that Sweden received 38 tons of gold from Nazi Germany (worth today US $430 million). Many Swedish companies, such as Ericsson, AGA and Hasselblad Cameras, as well as the country's paper and wood industries traded with Nazi Germany. Swedish jewelers bought stolen diamonds, which were smuggled into Sweden by civil servants working at the German legation in Stockholm.

    An exhibition on Sweden and the Holocaust, opening in Lund, not far from where Chavka Folman-Raban enjoyed her first weeks of freedom, aims to shed light on this darker side of Sweden’s relationship to Nazism. The exhibition, accompanied by seminars and publication of new research, shows how Swedish industry benefited from the war and how Swedish scientific institutions were leaders in the fields of race biology and eugenic research. 

    The exhibition also shows how Nazi ideals found Swedish sympathizers and how Sweden limited freedom of speech, and introduced immigration laws which turned away asylum seekers from Germany, many of whom were later murdered in concentration camps.



    Never knew this.

    How very chickenshit of them (if Spirtual's explanation for cozying up to Nazis is accurate). I mean... America (and Canada I might add) sent their sons abroad to fight for life and liberty on the very continent Sweden tucked their tails on.
    Chickenshit/betraying our Norweigan and Finnish brothers or a correct decision to stay out of the war - the discussion about it will never stop here in Sweden. 

    Fun fact: Only time I had to endure a "sweden hater" was when I lived in Oslo for a short while and stood in cue in a supermarket. The old man behind me heard me speaking swedish and started attacking me about how much he hated Sweden and how Sweden acted in the war and towards Norway. 

    Should be noted that during our neutral stance we also helped the Allied.
    Well, you should know that the discussion is settled in the rest of the world, and "correct decision" is not a phrase that ever gets used.
    I do not think you are an authority or well advertised in what is being settled in the world or not regarding Sweden's decision to protect its country from war and its citizens from death.

    And tell me again, where was the US before their own country got attacked? Why didn't you people come to the aid of Poland in 1939 if your're not chickenshits?
    Why on earth would we defend Poland?  They were conquered in thirty days by two countries that had enormous armies.  1. No way we could mobilize our troops in the time period.  2.  No way we are taking on Germany and the Soviet Union. 3. At this point in the war we are minding our own business and enduring the Great Depression.
     I mean we eventually did get involved a little over two years later and fought all over the world.
    Tell me again how the Swedish armed forces helped to defeat the Axis powers?

    Lol. Two modern men having some kind of nationalistic pissing contest over what their countries did in 1941. Classic. :get_outta_here:
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • cincybearcatcincybearcat Posts: 11,959
    PJ_Soul said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    rgambs said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    I was just reading about on Sweden's role in World War 2 and found the following: Was Sweden really "neutral" during World War 2?  

    Sweden's role in the Second World War had its darker side, it allowed the Germans to transit troops, supplies and communications through the country.

    Sweden also profited from the Holocaust. It is known that Wallenberg's relatives made money converting Nazi gold into Swedish crowns and that Sweden provided iron ore and ball bearings to the Nazis. Swedish documents reveal that some Swedes actually sided with the Nazis and volunteered to fight for Hitler. Some Swedes were members of the Waffen SS and served in police batallions.

    A committee was established by the Swedish government in 1997 to investigate the transfer of Nazi gold to Sweden during the war. It is reported that Sweden received 38 tons of gold from Nazi Germany (worth today US $430 million). Many Swedish companies, such as Ericsson, AGA and Hasselblad Cameras, as well as the country's paper and wood industries traded with Nazi Germany. Swedish jewelers bought stolen diamonds, which were smuggled into Sweden by civil servants working at the German legation in Stockholm.

    An exhibition on Sweden and the Holocaust, opening in Lund, not far from where Chavka Folman-Raban enjoyed her first weeks of freedom, aims to shed light on this darker side of Sweden’s relationship to Nazism. The exhibition, accompanied by seminars and publication of new research, shows how Swedish industry benefited from the war and how Swedish scientific institutions were leaders in the fields of race biology and eugenic research. 

    The exhibition also shows how Nazi ideals found Swedish sympathizers and how Sweden limited freedom of speech, and introduced immigration laws which turned away asylum seekers from Germany, many of whom were later murdered in concentration camps.



    Never knew this.

    How very chickenshit of them (if Spirtual's explanation for cozying up to Nazis is accurate). I mean... America (and Canada I might add) sent their sons abroad to fight for life and liberty on the very continent Sweden tucked their tails on.
    Chickenshit/betraying our Norweigan and Finnish brothers or a correct decision to stay out of the war - the discussion about it will never stop here in Sweden. 

    Fun fact: Only time I had to endure a "sweden hater" was when I lived in Oslo for a short while and stood in cue in a supermarket. The old man behind me heard me speaking swedish and started attacking me about how much he hated Sweden and how Sweden acted in the war and towards Norway. 

    Should be noted that during our neutral stance we also helped the Allied.
    Well, you should know that the discussion is settled in the rest of the world, and "correct decision" is not a phrase that ever gets used.
    I do not think you are an authority or well advertised in what is being settled in the world or not regarding Sweden's decision to protect its country from war and its citizens from death.

    And tell me again, where was the US before their own country got attacked? Why didn't you people come to the aid of Poland in 1939 if your're not chickenshits?
    Why on earth would we defend Poland?  They were conquered in thirty days by two countries that had enormous armies.  1. No way we could mobilize our troops in the time period.  2.  No way we are taking on Germany and the Soviet Union. 3. At this point in the war we are minding our own business and enduring the Great Depression.
     I mean we eventually did get involved a little over two years later and fought all over the world.
    Tell me again how the Swedish armed forces helped to defeat the Axis powers?

    Lol. Two modern men having some kind of nationalistic pissing contest over what their countries did in 1941. Classic. :get_outta_here:
    Surprise surprise!  In a thread set up to bash the USA for all it's faults...someone very willing to point out all the faults he sees and flying that Sweden flag high...you really wonder why someone began asking the tough questions? 

    This whole thread is an embarrassment on so many levels.
    hippiemom = goodness
  • Spiritual_ChaosSpiritual_Chaos Posts: 12,317
    PJ_Soul said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    rgambs said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    I was just reading about on Sweden's role in World War 2 and found the following: Was Sweden really "neutral" during World War 2?  

    Sweden's role in the Second World War had its darker side, it allowed the Germans to transit troops, supplies and communications through the country.

    Sweden also profited from the Holocaust. It is known that Wallenberg's relatives made money converting Nazi gold into Swedish crowns and that Sweden provided iron ore and ball bearings to the Nazis. Swedish documents reveal that some Swedes actually sided with the Nazis and volunteered to fight for Hitler. Some Swedes were members of the Waffen SS and served in police batallions.

    A committee was established by the Swedish government in 1997 to investigate the transfer of Nazi gold to Sweden during the war. It is reported that Sweden received 38 tons of gold from Nazi Germany (worth today US $430 million). Many Swedish companies, such as Ericsson, AGA and Hasselblad Cameras, as well as the country's paper and wood industries traded with Nazi Germany. Swedish jewelers bought stolen diamonds, which were smuggled into Sweden by civil servants working at the German legation in Stockholm.

    An exhibition on Sweden and the Holocaust, opening in Lund, not far from where Chavka Folman-Raban enjoyed her first weeks of freedom, aims to shed light on this darker side of Sweden’s relationship to Nazism. The exhibition, accompanied by seminars and publication of new research, shows how Swedish industry benefited from the war and how Swedish scientific institutions were leaders in the fields of race biology and eugenic research. 

    The exhibition also shows how Nazi ideals found Swedish sympathizers and how Sweden limited freedom of speech, and introduced immigration laws which turned away asylum seekers from Germany, many of whom were later murdered in concentration camps.



    Never knew this.

    How very chickenshit of them (if Spirtual's explanation for cozying up to Nazis is accurate). I mean... America (and Canada I might add) sent their sons abroad to fight for life and liberty on the very continent Sweden tucked their tails on.
    Chickenshit/betraying our Norweigan and Finnish brothers or a correct decision to stay out of the war - the discussion about it will never stop here in Sweden. 

    Fun fact: Only time I had to endure a "sweden hater" was when I lived in Oslo for a short while and stood in cue in a supermarket. The old man behind me heard me speaking swedish and started attacking me about how much he hated Sweden and how Sweden acted in the war and towards Norway. 

    Should be noted that during our neutral stance we also helped the Allied.
    Well, you should know that the discussion is settled in the rest of the world, and "correct decision" is not a phrase that ever gets used.
    I do not think you are an authority or well advertised in what is being settled in the world or not regarding Sweden's decision to protect its country from war and its citizens from death.

    And tell me again, where was the US before their own country got attacked? Why didn't you people come to the aid of Poland in 1939 if your're not chickenshits?
    Why on earth would we defend Poland?  They were conquered in thirty days by two countries that had enormous armies.  1. No way we could mobilize our troops in the time period.  2.  No way we are taking on Germany and the Soviet Union. 3. At this point in the war we are minding our own business and enduring the Great Depression.
     I mean we eventually did get involved a little over two years later and fought all over the world.
    Tell me again how the Swedish armed forces helped to defeat the Axis powers?

    Lol. Two modern men having some kind of nationalistic pissing contest over what their countries did in 1941. Classic. :get_outta_here:
    Surprise surprise!  In a thread set up to bash the USA for all it's faults...someone very willing to point out all the faults he sees and flying that Sweden flag high...you really wonder why someone began asking the tough questions? 

    This whole thread is an embarrassment on so many levels.
    You take this thread and your time on a message board to seriously. 
    The man they call my enemy. I've seen his eyes, he looks just like me - A mirror...
  • cincybearcatcincybearcat Posts: 11,959
    PJ_Soul said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    rgambs said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    I was just reading about on Sweden's role in World War 2 and found the following: Was Sweden really "neutral" during World War 2?  

    Sweden's role in the Second World War had its darker side, it allowed the Germans to transit troops, supplies and communications through the country.

    Sweden also profited from the Holocaust. It is known that Wallenberg's relatives made money converting Nazi gold into Swedish crowns and that Sweden provided iron ore and ball bearings to the Nazis. Swedish documents reveal that some Swedes actually sided with the Nazis and volunteered to fight for Hitler. Some Swedes were members of the Waffen SS and served in police batallions.

    A committee was established by the Swedish government in 1997 to investigate the transfer of Nazi gold to Sweden during the war. It is reported that Sweden received 38 tons of gold from Nazi Germany (worth today US $430 million). Many Swedish companies, such as Ericsson, AGA and Hasselblad Cameras, as well as the country's paper and wood industries traded with Nazi Germany. Swedish jewelers bought stolen diamonds, which were smuggled into Sweden by civil servants working at the German legation in Stockholm.

    An exhibition on Sweden and the Holocaust, opening in Lund, not far from where Chavka Folman-Raban enjoyed her first weeks of freedom, aims to shed light on this darker side of Sweden’s relationship to Nazism. The exhibition, accompanied by seminars and publication of new research, shows how Swedish industry benefited from the war and how Swedish scientific institutions were leaders in the fields of race biology and eugenic research. 

    The exhibition also shows how Nazi ideals found Swedish sympathizers and how Sweden limited freedom of speech, and introduced immigration laws which turned away asylum seekers from Germany, many of whom were later murdered in concentration camps.



    Never knew this.

    How very chickenshit of them (if Spirtual's explanation for cozying up to Nazis is accurate). I mean... America (and Canada I might add) sent their sons abroad to fight for life and liberty on the very continent Sweden tucked their tails on.
    Chickenshit/betraying our Norweigan and Finnish brothers or a correct decision to stay out of the war - the discussion about it will never stop here in Sweden. 

    Fun fact: Only time I had to endure a "sweden hater" was when I lived in Oslo for a short while and stood in cue in a supermarket. The old man behind me heard me speaking swedish and started attacking me about how much he hated Sweden and how Sweden acted in the war and towards Norway. 

    Should be noted that during our neutral stance we also helped the Allied.
    Well, you should know that the discussion is settled in the rest of the world, and "correct decision" is not a phrase that ever gets used.
    I do not think you are an authority or well advertised in what is being settled in the world or not regarding Sweden's decision to protect its country from war and its citizens from death.

    And tell me again, where was the US before their own country got attacked? Why didn't you people come to the aid of Poland in 1939 if your're not chickenshits?
    Why on earth would we defend Poland?  They were conquered in thirty days by two countries that had enormous armies.  1. No way we could mobilize our troops in the time period.  2.  No way we are taking on Germany and the Soviet Union. 3. At this point in the war we are minding our own business and enduring the Great Depression.
     I mean we eventually did get involved a little over two years later and fought all over the world.
    Tell me again how the Swedish armed forces helped to defeat the Axis powers?

    Lol. Two modern men having some kind of nationalistic pissing contest over what their countries did in 1941. Classic. :get_outta_here:
    Surprise surprise!  In a thread set up to bash the USA for all it's faults...someone very willing to point out all the faults he sees and flying that Sweden flag high...you really wonder why someone began asking the tough questions? 

    This whole thread is an embarrassment on so many levels.
    You take this thread and your time on a message board to seriously. 
    Not really...in fact most of the time people get made at me for making sarcastic comments.  Heil Sweden! 
    hippiemom = goodness
  • Spiritual_ChaosSpiritual_Chaos Posts: 12,317
    PJ_Soul said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    rgambs said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    I was just reading about on Sweden's role in World War 2 and found the following: Was Sweden really "neutral" during World War 2?  

    Sweden's role in the Second World War had its darker side, it allowed the Germans to transit troops, supplies and communications through the country.

    Sweden also profited from the Holocaust. It is known that Wallenberg's relatives made money converting Nazi gold into Swedish crowns and that Sweden provided iron ore and ball bearings to the Nazis. Swedish documents reveal that some Swedes actually sided with the Nazis and volunteered to fight for Hitler. Some Swedes were members of the Waffen SS and served in police batallions.

    A committee was established by the Swedish government in 1997 to investigate the transfer of Nazi gold to Sweden during the war. It is reported that Sweden received 38 tons of gold from Nazi Germany (worth today US $430 million). Many Swedish companies, such as Ericsson, AGA and Hasselblad Cameras, as well as the country's paper and wood industries traded with Nazi Germany. Swedish jewelers bought stolen diamonds, which were smuggled into Sweden by civil servants working at the German legation in Stockholm.

    An exhibition on Sweden and the Holocaust, opening in Lund, not far from where Chavka Folman-Raban enjoyed her first weeks of freedom, aims to shed light on this darker side of Sweden’s relationship to Nazism. The exhibition, accompanied by seminars and publication of new research, shows how Swedish industry benefited from the war and how Swedish scientific institutions were leaders in the fields of race biology and eugenic research. 

    The exhibition also shows how Nazi ideals found Swedish sympathizers and how Sweden limited freedom of speech, and introduced immigration laws which turned away asylum seekers from Germany, many of whom were later murdered in concentration camps.



    Never knew this.

    How very chickenshit of them (if Spirtual's explanation for cozying up to Nazis is accurate). I mean... America (and Canada I might add) sent their sons abroad to fight for life and liberty on the very continent Sweden tucked their tails on.
    Chickenshit/betraying our Norweigan and Finnish brothers or a correct decision to stay out of the war - the discussion about it will never stop here in Sweden. 

    Fun fact: Only time I had to endure a "sweden hater" was when I lived in Oslo for a short while and stood in cue in a supermarket. The old man behind me heard me speaking swedish and started attacking me about how much he hated Sweden and how Sweden acted in the war and towards Norway. 

    Should be noted that during our neutral stance we also helped the Allied.
    Well, you should know that the discussion is settled in the rest of the world, and "correct decision" is not a phrase that ever gets used.
    I do not think you are an authority or well advertised in what is being settled in the world or not regarding Sweden's decision to protect its country from war and its citizens from death.

    And tell me again, where was the US before their own country got attacked? Why didn't you people come to the aid of Poland in 1939 if your're not chickenshits?
    Why on earth would we defend Poland?  They were conquered in thirty days by two countries that had enormous armies.  1. No way we could mobilize our troops in the time period.  2.  No way we are taking on Germany and the Soviet Union. 3. At this point in the war we are minding our own business and enduring the Great Depression.
     I mean we eventually did get involved a little over two years later and fought all over the world.
    Tell me again how the Swedish armed forces helped to defeat the Axis powers?

    Lol. Two modern men having some kind of nationalistic pissing contest over what their countries did in 1941. Classic. :get_outta_here:
    Surprise surprise!  In a thread set up to bash the USA for all it's faults...someone very willing to point out all the faults he sees and flying that Sweden flag high...you really wonder why someone began asking the tough questions? 

    This whole thread is an embarrassment on so many levels.
    You take this thread and your time on a message board to seriously. 
    Not really...in fact most of the time people get made at me for making sarcastic comments.  Heil Sweden! 

    The man they call my enemy. I've seen his eyes, he looks just like me - A mirror...
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BCPosts: 46,854
    America doesn't make the top 20 for health apparently. I would imagine that Americans might want to be very concerned about that.


    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 26,932
    Another contender for greatest country in the world (come on, you know it's true!)-  Republic of Wadiya and leader Admiral General Aladeen. 


    “Finding beauty in a broken world is creating beauty in the world we find.”
    -Terry Tempest Williams
    ***********
    M.I.T.S.






  • eddieceddiec Posts: 2,914
    Here's something that bugs me, and it could easily be rectified. 
    I currently live in Ireland. When I go the supermarket, I bring the same two tote bags I've been using for the past few years. If you forget your bags, they charge you a small fee for each plastic bag you need or you can purchase a new reusable tote. This forces most people to bring their own reusable bags.

    When I visit my parents in New York and go to the supermarket, (and I'm only using NY as a reference, I don't know how it is in other states), it's a horrific waste of plastic. A lot of aisles will have people who pack your bags, and they literally barely fill each bag before starting to fill another one. I'm talking like four oranges and they consider it full. One time I needed to pick up just a handful of things, so at checkout they started bagging them up. When I told them I didn't need a bag, the two people at checkout looked at me like I was a psycho.

  • OnWis97OnWis97 St. Paul, MNPosts: 1,678
    edited March 19
    eddiec said:
    Here's something that bugs me, and it could easily be rectified. 
    I currently live in Ireland. When I go the supermarket, I bring the same two tote bags I've been using for the past few years. If you forget your bags, they charge you a small fee for each plastic bag you need or you can purchase a new reusable tote. This forces most people to bring their own reusable bags.

    When I visit my parents in New York and go to the supermarket, (and I'm only using NY as a reference, I don't know how it is in other states), it's a horrific waste of plastic. A lot of aisles will have people who pack your bags, and they literally barely fill each bag before starting to fill another one. I'm talking like four oranges and they consider it full. One time I needed to pick up just a handful of things, so at checkout they started bagging them up. When I told them I didn't need a bag, the two people at checkout looked at me like I was a psycho.

    This is the case everywhere.  I bagged groceries at a grocery store when I was in high school and we were taught not to fill the bags very full.  Very few customers valued waste reduction as much as convenience and as such we wasted a lot.  If a grocery store charged for bags* they'd probably go out of business.  That was the suburbs in the early-to-mid-1990s.  Today I am in a city and I do see more customers bringing their own re-usable bags (probably a function of location and timeline) but for the most part, we just use, use, use.  I re-use my paper bags.  I figure I get 7 to 10 uses out of each before I wear them out.  If everyone did that, we'd be using less than 20 percent of the grocery bags we use.

    "Convenience first" is as American as apple pie, though I don't know enough to say that we're worse than most other countries.

    *I think there are a couple cities where they have to; San Francisco maybe?  But try that shit in Kansas, and you're done.
    Post edited by OnWis97 on
    1995 Milwaukee
    1998 Alpine, Alpine
    2003 Albany, Boston, Boston, Boston
    2004 Boston, Boston
    2006 Hartford, St. Paul (Petty), St. Paul (Petty)
    2011 Alpine, Alpine
    2013 Wrigley
    2014 St. Paul
    2016 Fenway, Fenway, Wrigley, Wrigley
    2018 Missoula, Wrigley, Wrigley
  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon WinnipegPosts: 18,021
    OnWis97 said:
    eddiec said:
    Here's something that bugs me, and it could easily be rectified. 
    I currently live in Ireland. When I go the supermarket, I bring the same two tote bags I've been using for the past few years. If you forget your bags, they charge you a small fee for each plastic bag you need or you can purchase a new reusable tote. This forces most people to bring their own reusable bags.

    When I visit my parents in New York and go to the supermarket, (and I'm only using NY as a reference, I don't know how it is in other states), it's a horrific waste of plastic. A lot of aisles will have people who pack your bags, and they literally barely fill each bag before starting to fill another one. I'm talking like four oranges and they consider it full. One time I needed to pick up just a handful of things, so at checkout they started bagging them up. When I told them I didn't need a bag, the two people at checkout looked at me like I was a psycho.

    This is the case everywhere.  I bagged groceries at a grocery store when I was in high school and we were taught not to fill the bags very full.  Very few customers valued waste reduction as much as convenience and as such we wasted a lot.  If a grocery store charged for bags* they'd probably go out of business.  That was the suburbs in the early-to-mid-1990s.  Today I am in a city and I do see more customers bringing their own re-usable bags (probably a function of location and timeline) but for the most part, we just use, use, use.  I re-use my paper bags.  I figure I get 7 to 10 uses out of each before I wear them out.  If everyone did that, we'd be using less than 20 percent of the grocery bags we use.

    "Convenience first" is as American as apple pie, though I don't know enough to say that we're worse than most other countries.

    *I think there are a couple cities where they have to; San Francisco maybe?  But try that shit in Kansas, and you're done.
    almost everywhere I shop now in Winnipeg you pay for plastic bags. we shop with big bins now that are made to fit the shopping cart. 
This discussion has been closed.