North Korea

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  • mrussel1
    mrussel1 Posts: 30,883
    Meltdown99 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    Meltdown99 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    Meltdown99 said:
    brianlux said:
    North Korea has to be today's quintessential fucked up country.  The average person living there at any time in the last (at least) 50 years has had to endure trials, tribulations, pain and suffering most of us can only vaguely imagine by reading about the place (and there are only a relatively few about NK that tell it like it really is.)  How terrible it must be to live in that country.  Even the elite, dare they say the wrong words or make a wrong move, may find themselves in one of the many torturous prison work camps there.  It must be hell on earth.
    The poor people of NK have been used as pawns by China, Russia, the US and of course their own government.  I also believe the Korean people being abused goes back a long way when the Japanese were there.  I think all 3 of those countries need to grow the fuck up and quit playing politics with people's lives.  It has always amused me as to how the US and many of her citizens like to come across as they are innocent peacekeepers.  Well, they are not. The US has no business having a military presence in the peninsula.  It is time to let these countries manage their own affairs and figure this shit how...


    I'm fairly certain Japan and SK want us in the peninsula.  
    I know they do.  It's also BS.  These countries need to solve their difference without the US.  As long as the US is there, nothing will change.  China will never trust the US and reunification will never happen until the US gets out.  Tawain and Hong Kong want the US there as well to keep the Chinese at bay.  Always amazes me that other countries want the US young men and woman to sacrifice because these countries do not trust each other.  I also highly doubt any of these countries would jump to our needs here if we were under threat of attack.

    Just because they want something doesn't mean they should get it.
    Very interesting argument.  Most of your arguments have been around that the US is self serving only and doesn't give a shit about anyone but itself (probably true).  But this argument is the inverse, and you have concern for our volunteer forces and that we are doing the heavy lifting in Asia.  America certainly has strategic interests there, and have since we invaded the Philippines 100 years ago.  Our presence has served as a deterrent to NK and Chinese ambitions to expand their spheres of influence.  I have no issues with my tax dollars going there. 

    You also use the word "our needs".  But I thought you were Canadian?
    The US government is self-serving, that not really in question in my opinion.  The men and woman of the military just follow orders, they have no say in where they serve...I have no kids, but if I did, I sure wouldn't want them serving just to be sent off to bullshit wars, like Afghanistan or Iraq.  But I have no problem criticizing the missions while supporting the men and woman who serve...I'm sure many who have served the last 20-30 years who got sent to Iraq or Afghanistan regret the day they went into a recruiting office.

    When it comes to military action, I often refer to the US as us...I probably shouldn't, but we have fought alongside one another in many conflicts...and for the most part, we are joined at the hip militarily and foreign policy.  

    But do not confuse my criticism of US foreign policy decisions which are made by the higher-ups with the much respect I have for anyone willing to serve and defend NA.  

    I think we are allowed to question US foreign policy without disliking the US or the people who serve.

    It's also important to remember most members of the military are there because they come from poor to lower-middle-class households and cannot afford college, so this is seen as a better option than McJobs for life...and many do obtain useful skills in the military, but many never receive much more than PTSD and homelessness because they become forgotten, this applies to Canada as well.

    That is also why I think W was the worst US President ever (Trump is there), but what the US has done to middle east the last 30 years is unacceptable...I hate to think of all the antiquities and ancient ruins buried in the desert that has been destroyed...just pure shameful ignorance from a President in which his only good quality was getting me to chuckle when he said nuclear.


    I agree on Bush.  He was just awful as a president, and now the 2nd worst of my lifetime, probably bottom 10 of all time.  That is all driven by Iraq.  But I don't equate our presence in Asia since '48 with the mess created in Iraq.  In fact, our presence has clearly served as a stabilizing force through the depths of the cold war, Vietnam, post Soviet Union, etc.  The fact that both Japan and SK have not only survived but prospered economically is a testament to the success of the military and diplomatic strategies.  
  • Meltdown99
    Meltdown99 None Of Your Business... Posts: 10,739
    mrussel1 said:
    Meltdown99 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    Meltdown99 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    Meltdown99 said:
    brianlux said:
    North Korea has to be today's quintessential fucked up country.  The average person living there at any time in the last (at least) 50 years has had to endure trials, tribulations, pain and suffering most of us can only vaguely imagine by reading about the place (and there are only a relatively few about NK that tell it like it really is.)  How terrible it must be to live in that country.  Even the elite, dare they say the wrong words or make a wrong move, may find themselves in one of the many torturous prison work camps there.  It must be hell on earth.
    The poor people of NK have been used as pawns by China, Russia, the US and of course their own government.  I also believe the Korean people being abused goes back a long way when the Japanese were there.  I think all 3 of those countries need to grow the fuck up and quit playing politics with people's lives.  It has always amused me as to how the US and many of her citizens like to come across as they are innocent peacekeepers.  Well, they are not. The US has no business having a military presence in the peninsula.  It is time to let these countries manage their own affairs and figure this shit how...


    I'm fairly certain Japan and SK want us in the peninsula.  
    I know they do.  It's also BS.  These countries need to solve their difference without the US.  As long as the US is there, nothing will change.  China will never trust the US and reunification will never happen until the US gets out.  Tawain and Hong Kong want the US there as well to keep the Chinese at bay.  Always amazes me that other countries want the US young men and woman to sacrifice because these countries do not trust each other.  I also highly doubt any of these countries would jump to our needs here if we were under threat of attack.

    Just because they want something doesn't mean they should get it.
    Very interesting argument.  Most of your arguments have been around that the US is self serving only and doesn't give a shit about anyone but itself (probably true).  But this argument is the inverse, and you have concern for our volunteer forces and that we are doing the heavy lifting in Asia.  America certainly has strategic interests there, and have since we invaded the Philippines 100 years ago.  Our presence has served as a deterrent to NK and Chinese ambitions to expand their spheres of influence.  I have no issues with my tax dollars going there. 

    You also use the word "our needs".  But I thought you were Canadian?
    The US government is self-serving, that not really in question in my opinion.  The men and woman of the military just follow orders, they have no say in where they serve...I have no kids, but if I did, I sure wouldn't want them serving just to be sent off to bullshit wars, like Afghanistan or Iraq.  But I have no problem criticizing the missions while supporting the men and woman who serve...I'm sure many who have served the last 20-30 years who got sent to Iraq or Afghanistan regret the day they went into a recruiting office.

    When it comes to military action, I often refer to the US as us...I probably shouldn't, but we have fought alongside one another in many conflicts...and for the most part, we are joined at the hip militarily and foreign policy.  

    But do not confuse my criticism of US foreign policy decisions which are made by the higher-ups with the much respect I have for anyone willing to serve and defend NA.  

    I think we are allowed to question US foreign policy without disliking the US or the people who serve.

    It's also important to remember most members of the military are there because they come from poor to lower-middle-class households and cannot afford college, so this is seen as a better option than McJobs for life...and many do obtain useful skills in the military, but many never receive much more than PTSD and homelessness because they become forgotten, this applies to Canada as well.

    That is also why I think W was the worst US President ever (Trump is there), but what the US has done to middle east the last 30 years is unacceptable...I hate to think of all the antiquities and ancient ruins buried in the desert that has been destroyed...just pure shameful ignorance from a President in which his only good quality was getting me to chuckle when he said nuclear.


    I agree on Bush.  He was just awful as a president, and now the 2nd worst of my lifetime, probably bottom 10 of all time.  That is all driven by Iraq.  But I don't equate our presence in Asia since '48 with the mess created in Iraq.  In fact, our presence has clearly served as a stabilizing force through the depths of the cold war, Vietnam, post Soviet Union, etc.  The fact that both Japan and SK have not only survived but prospered economically is a testament to the success of the military and diplomatic strategies.  
    You are more of a big picture person than I am.  I have had this discussion with my Dad, and he has always felt that if the US was not in SK, the north probably would have invaded the south by now.  He also feels that China would have tried to annex Hong Kong as well.  So, I see where both of you are coming from.  For the most part, the military presence by the US does cost a lot of money, but armed conflicts cost more than just money, they cost lives and even more money.

    I've come to the realization that being a US president will leave blood on their hands at some point.  I just hope we never need Trump to make a major decision on entering an armed conflict...he'd fire all the generals within 48 hours, wondering why the conflict isn't over.  LOL

    I just do not like that the NK people are pawns.  The best I hope from NK is that they allow people to leave willingly if they choose.  The chia dictator can have his country, just let those who wish to leave to exit...
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  • Halifax2TheMax
    Halifax2TheMax Posts: 42,366
    Better lower those Nobel expectations.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/27/world/asia/north-korea-kim-jong-un-defector.html
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  • Meltdown99
    Meltdown99 None Of Your Business... Posts: 10,739




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  • my2hands
    my2hands Posts: 17,117

    yup, it's coming... they are going to agree to de-nuke before the election next year


    who wants to make some wagers?

  • mrussel1
    mrussel1 Posts: 30,883
    my2hands said:

    yup, it's coming... they are going to agree to de-nuke before the election next year


    who wants to make some wagers?

    Dude, they agreed to de-nuke last year.  And they didn't.  So of course they are going to agree again.  
  • Meltdown99
    Meltdown99 None Of Your Business... Posts: 10,739
    Why should they de-nuke?  Pakistan and India should be more a concern.  They both have nukes, they are engaging each other militarily.

    0.

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  • Halifax2TheMax
    Halifax2TheMax Posts: 42,366
    Surprise!

    https://www.cnn.com/2019/02/27/politics/donald-trump-kim-jong-un-vietnam-summit/index.html

    Not!
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  • benjs
    benjs Toronto, ON Posts: 9,381
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  • Halifax2TheMax
    Halifax2TheMax Posts: 42,366
    And Team Trump Treason flew all that way, across all those time zones too. And I bet his bone spurs flared. Such a sacrifice for so much winning.
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  • cincybearcat
    cincybearcat Posts: 16,840
    Halifax2TheMax said:
    And Team Trump Treason flew all that way, across all those time zones too. And I bet his bone spurs flared. Such a sacrifice for so much winning.
    So I'm confused. What exactly is wrong with meeting with NK and having a meeting and not agreeing to something.  I don't understand the blanket criticism.
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  • Meltdown99
    Meltdown99 None Of Your Business... Posts: 10,739
    cincybearcat said:
    Halifax2TheMax said:
    And Team Trump Treason flew all that way, across all those time zones too. And I bet his bone spurs flared. Such a sacrifice for so much winning.
    So I'm confused. What exactly is wrong with meeting with NK and having a meeting and not agreeing to something.  I don't understand the blanket criticism.
    There is nothing wrong with meeting him.  Anyone who thought concrete solutions in a complicated part of the world was going to get solved after 2 meetings had a way to high of expectatuions.  How many meetings did Reagan and Russians have in the 80's?
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  • Halifax2TheMax
    Halifax2TheMax Posts: 42,366
    A disinterested, disengaged, unlearned, failed real estate executive has no business negotiating nuclear treaties, particularly when he hires only the best fourth string he can.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/28/opinion/trump-kim-summit.html
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  • mrussel1
    mrussel1 Posts: 30,883
    cincybearcat said:
    Halifax2TheMax said:
    And Team Trump Treason flew all that way, across all those time zones too. And I bet his bone spurs flared. Such a sacrifice for so much winning.
    So I'm confused. What exactly is wrong with meeting with NK and having a meeting and not agreeing to something.  I don't understand the blanket criticism.
    They seem unprepared as usual.  First, bilateral talks have proved ineffective, yet the administration persists.  Trump seems to think that his personal relationship (whatever the fuck that is) with Kim will close the deal.  The administration knew that Kim was going to offer the closing of that one site in exchange for the total removal of sanctions.  But they went anyway.  And that's what was offered.  I guess it's a better performance than last year where Trump made commitments in exchange for some blankets and beads, so that's good... I guess.  People are praising him for not making a ridiculous deal.  Par for the course on the bar for Trump's shenanigans.  
  • cincybearcat
    cincybearcat Posts: 16,840
    mrussel1 said:
    cincybearcat said:
    Halifax2TheMax said:
    And Team Trump Treason flew all that way, across all those time zones too. And I bet his bone spurs flared. Such a sacrifice for so much winning.
    So I'm confused. What exactly is wrong with meeting with NK and having a meeting and not agreeing to something.  I don't understand the blanket criticism.
    They seem unprepared as usual.  First, bilateral talks have proved ineffective, yet the administration persists.  Trump seems to think that his personal relationship (whatever the fuck that is) with Kim will close the deal.  The administration knew that Kim was going to offer the closing of that one site in exchange for the total removal of sanctions.  But they went anyway.  And that's what was offered.  I guess it's a better performance than last year where Trump made commitments in exchange for some blankets and beads, so that's good... I guess.  People are praising him for not making a ridiculous deal.  Par for the course on the bar for Trump's shenanigans.  
    Not praising him, but why criticizing?

    I'm ok with a different style of talks as well.  Heck, please point out where the previous style was working at all.  I realize it's not likely to work this way either but you know what they say about continuing to do the same thing and expect different results...
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  • mrussel1
    mrussel1 Posts: 30,883
    cincybearcat said:
    mrussel1 said:
    cincybearcat said:
    Halifax2TheMax said:
    And Team Trump Treason flew all that way, across all those time zones too. And I bet his bone spurs flared. Such a sacrifice for so much winning.
    So I'm confused. What exactly is wrong with meeting with NK and having a meeting and not agreeing to something.  I don't understand the blanket criticism.
    They seem unprepared as usual.  First, bilateral talks have proved ineffective, yet the administration persists.  Trump seems to think that his personal relationship (whatever the fuck that is) with Kim will close the deal.  The administration knew that Kim was going to offer the closing of that one site in exchange for the total removal of sanctions.  But they went anyway.  And that's what was offered.  I guess it's a better performance than last year where Trump made commitments in exchange for some blankets and beads, so that's good... I guess.  People are praising him for not making a ridiculous deal.  Par for the course on the bar for Trump's shenanigans.  
    Not praising him, but why criticizing?

    I'm ok with a different style of talks as well.  Heck, please point out where the previous style was working at all.  I realize it's not likely to work this way either but you know what they say about continuing to do the same thing and expect different results...
    But that speaks to whether denuking is a reasonable goal.  Perhaps our goal should be the prevention of development of long range missiles, rather than removing the short range from the peninsula.  Our first objective is to protect the mainland.  Second, my criticism of Trump is the belief his personal relationship is the key success, the lack of a coherent strategy, not involving the Chinese, etc.  I'm jaded by his behavior last year, so now I need to see something different. 
  • Meltdown99
    Meltdown99 None Of Your Business... Posts: 10,739
    my2hands said:

    yup, it's coming... they are going to agree to de-nuke before the election next year


    who wants to make some wagers?

    Donald Trump overstated North Korea’s demand to lift all sanctions, officials say

    https://globalnews.ca/news/5011651/donald-trump-north-korea-lift-sanctions/?utm_source=GlobalNews&utm_medium=Facebook&fbclid=IwAR1txcKUSdL4cX2X-v_m4yPmOU-qfAnqEC3J8dE6Kw_8EqaQ_saFsSX-FKA

    You might be right.  Walk away from this and have another summit in 2019 and 2020...
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  • Halifax2TheMax
    Halifax2TheMax Posts: 42,366
    North Korea is never going to “denuclearize.”
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  • Meltdown99
    Meltdown99 None Of Your Business... Posts: 10,739
    Halifax2TheMax said:
    North Korea is never going to “denuclearize.”
    Why should they?  The US is the 1 country that has actually used them. 
    Give Peas A Chance…
  • mrussel1
    mrussel1 Posts: 30,883
    Meltdown99 said:
    my2hands said:

    yup, it's coming... they are going to agree to de-nuke before the election next year


    who wants to make some wagers?

    Donald Trump overstated North Korea’s demand to lift all sanctions, officials say

    https://globalnews.ca/news/5011651/donald-trump-north-korea-lift-sanctions/?utm_source=GlobalNews&utm_medium=Facebook&fbclid=IwAR1txcKUSdL4cX2X-v_m4yPmOU-qfAnqEC3J8dE6Kw_8EqaQ_saFsSX-FKA

    You might be right.  Walk away from this and have another summit in 2019 and 2020...
    That's an interesting article.  Thanks for sharing.  It does appear that Trump overstated the North's demand, but that doesn't make the decision wrong either.  They could continue research if the economic sanctions are lifted.  I still think that Trump engaging with Kim at this point is useless.  Let the lower level talks continue to hammer out details.  Let the pros do their work, rather than let the amateur fuck it up. 

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