America's Gun Violence

Halifax2TheMax · February 2018

mattsl1983 said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

mattsl1983 said:

oftenreading said:

mattsl1983 said:

It’s way to hard to follow every response that debates this or that.

Can we not agree on better background checks?

Statistically can we not agree that the ban didn’t change anything. You can’t argue statistics.

Can you not agree that parading children out by pushing an ideology on them is wrong?

can we not agree that something needs to change?

i guess I don’t understand this idea that if you aren’t for banning guns then you don’t care.

Im all for this “common sense” reform, just what exactly is it?

No, I for one am not going to agree to your false and misleading statements. “Parading children out by pushing an ideology on them” .... you think teens can’t think for themselves and decide whether they are interested in gun control or not? You think that gun control is by definition a false ideology? And finally, you think that the republicans and even the NRA don’t “parade children” when it suits them?

And also I disagree with your characterization that the ban achieved nothing.

You are exactly the type of person that you can’t have a conversation about gun control with. Just read your response and put it in context with your reply. You create a huge huh? What?

And yes, I firmly believe that at the age of 14 to almost mid to late 20’s, a person is so directly influenced by ideas they think that they think work, that they haven’t realized the different between reality and ideology. And if you want to pretend that a 17 year old has it all figured out for themselves, then you are, well I’m not going to name call but yea...

It’s east to target laws, the infamous NRA. These are all things that you, and this is a very important word, that “you” feel like you can control. So I just say keep fighting your fight. But eventually you will rub out of ideas that that you think you can control and the world will probably be worse off.

So I guess you are saying to Brian something like, "Learn how to cope with the status quo because the US is incapable of making any meaningful change effort with regards to gun control."

Station Navy Seals in schools and be prepared to gun down 'those dumb teenagers' capable of acquiring AR15s and hell bent on murdering many people, but incapable of formulating independent thoughts (I'm paraphrasing you again in your response to Reading).

You might be right. Seeing the arguments against gun control and seeing things like who you elected as your president... your country just might not have the ability or will to pull off the required changes necessary for a safer society.

It's too bad.

Hey... what state do you think your next mass shooting is going to be in? What's the over/under for fatalities?

Sadly no. You put a lot of words in my mouth and made many false assumptions.

As I clearly stated, we both on the points I gave can agree and disagree. A solution can come from being grown up and talking. Not becoming a sensationalist or putting words in the other persons mouth. It’s a point of okay, we have defined our common ground, let’s go from here. I’m sure his ideas can teach me something I haven’t thought about, and I’m sure mine can do the same.

Lets try and be adults and not try to regurgitate your favorite MSNB, CNN, Fox News anchor who feeds opinions and personal analysis.

But it if that’s what you got out of it, good for you.

Are you stoned? Maybe just a little?

mrussel1 · February 2018

riley540 said:

I grew up through the school system 2001 - 2014. I’d say half my teachers were useless garbage, and the other half were super awesome and impactful. Starting salary in AK is $51,000 for high school and I’m not sure about k - 8. Some teachers deserve more, but some suck bad. Just my opinion.

Well that will be true of any place you work and any group of people you are around for the rest of your life... Some are great, most are good, several will suck. Teachers are people just like everyone else.

Thirty Bills Unpaid · February 2018

mattsl1983 said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

mattsl1983 said:

oftenreading said:

mattsl1983 said:

It’s way to hard to follow every response that debates this or that.

Can we not agree on better background checks?

Statistically can we not agree that the ban didn’t change anything. You can’t argue statistics.

Can you not agree that parading children out by pushing an ideology on them is wrong?

can we not agree that something needs to change?

i guess I don’t understand this idea that if you aren’t for banning guns then you don’t care.

Im all for this “common sense” reform, just what exactly is it?

No, I for one am not going to agree to your false and misleading statements. “Parading children out by pushing an ideology on them” .... you think teens can’t think for themselves and decide whether they are interested in gun control or not? You think that gun control is by definition a false ideology? And finally, you think that the republicans and even the NRA don’t “parade children” when it suits them?

And also I disagree with your characterization that the ban achieved nothing.

You are exactly the type of person that you can’t have a conversation about gun control with. Just read your response and put it in context with your reply. You create a huge huh? What?

And yes, I firmly believe that at the age of 14 to almost mid to late 20’s, a person is so directly influenced by ideas they think that they think work, that they haven’t realized the different between reality and ideology. And if you want to pretend that a 17 year old has it all figured out for themselves, then you are, well I’m not going to name call but yea...

It’s east to target laws, the infamous NRA. These are all things that you, and this is a very important word, that “you” feel like you can control. So I just say keep fighting your fight. But eventually you will rub out of ideas that that you think you can control and the world will probably be worse off.

So I guess you are saying to Brian something like, "Learn how to cope with the status quo because the US is incapable of making any meaningful change effort with regards to gun control."

Station Navy Seals in schools and be prepared to gun down 'those dumb teenagers' capable of acquiring AR15s and hell bent on murdering many people, but incapable of formulating independent thoughts (I'm paraphrasing you again in your response to Reading).

You might be right. Seeing the arguments against gun control and seeing things like who you elected as your president... your country just might not have the ability or will to pull off the required changes necessary for a safer society.

It's too bad.

Hey... what state do you think your next mass shooting is going to be in? What's the over/under for fatalities?

Sadly no. You put a lot of words in my mouth and made many false assumptions.

As I clearly stated, we both on the points I gave can agree and disagree. A solution can come from being grown up and talking. Not becoming a sensationalist or putting words in the other persons mouth. It’s a point of okay, we have defined our common ground, let’s go from here. I’m sure his ideas can teach me something I haven’t thought about, and I’m sure mine can do the same.

Lets try and be adults and not try to regurgitate your favorite MSNB, CNN, Fox News anchor who feeds opinions and personal analysis.

But it if that’s what you got out of it, good for you.

This response needed some editing- it's not very clear on what you are trying to say outside of the fact that you didn't like what I had to say. I never put words in your mouth- I clarified my interpretations of what you were trying to express: if I was wrong understanding what you were trying to say... feel free to correct me (but I think I was right).

In case you haven't really stopped to think about it a whole lot... figuring out how to maintain the status quo with outrageous schemes such as 'arm the teachers' is about as bad as it can get. Arm the teachers? This is a serious response to the burgeoning epidemic your country faces? Geezuz.

I mean... we can all agree there is a problem. Great! However, these types of 'improvements' are hardly progress towards solving it and are most certainly not efforts to find middle ground. These are efforts to preserve and promote a mentality which to this point in time has facilitated mass murder.

Middle ground is agreeing on rigid background checks, limiting magazine capacities, restricting certain weapon characteristics... these types of things. And, of course, these things will never get agreed upon by two sides so far apart: one side seeking to safeguard their country while the other side fears a hostile takeover from a tyrannical government or simply likes to shoot cool guns.

I'm hoping the kids will win this battle. They'll likely stay motivated: there's a school shooting of the sensational variety soon to happen... so the movement will continue to be motivated. The NRA and the republicans would do well to recognize this external threat (future voters) to their organizations. They've already pressured major companies to stop endorsing the NRA.

mrussel1 · February 2018

Nothing pleases the NRA more than moving the "solution" to more guns. Their benefactors (manufacturers) are very pleased with that type of solution.

stuckinline · February 2018

Washington (CNN)President Donald Trump spent the last two days insisting that he was ready to find compromise on gun control measures in the wake of the murders of 17 people at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School in Florida last week.

He expressed support for expanded background checks and for raising the age to buy a rifle from 18 to 21 and argued that he wasn't at all worried about blowback from the National Rifle Association.

That all changed during Trump's speech Friday morning at the Conservative Political Action Conference just outside Washington. Talking about the stakes of the 2018 election, Trump said that if Democrats win back control of Congress "they'll take away your 2nd Amendment."

As he closed his speech, Trump again said Democrats want to repeal the 2nd Amendment: "They will do that, they will do that," he said.

https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/23/politics/trump-cpac-guns/index.html

wndowpayne · February 2018

Lets just say teachers did start to carry..How long til an offhand " Ill shoot you " comment is made? Yeah, I know a good teacher would never say that but not all teachers are good and even the great ones have bad days...A student could just make the accusation and it becomes a mess..This is insanity...
We need solid parenting. Don't let kids grow up on social media.Raise the age limit and ban assault weapons.That doesn't eliminate the problem of the guns that are already out there.Maybe a Gov't buy back.Quit selling the ammo for these things.I'm sure some will make their own but at least its a step.

oftenreading · February 2018

Maybe I missed this but I don’t recall seeing it posted here.

According to this recent poll, 97% of the population supports universal background checks. Too bad those in the 3% have so much influence, just by shouting the loudest and waving around fistfulls of cash.

https://www.google.ca/amp/thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/374692-poll-97-percent-support-background-checks-for-all-gun-buyers%3famp

mcgruff10 · February 2018

What firearm sales don’t require a background check? And has any of these shooters acquired a firearm by bypassing a background check?

oftenreading · February 2018

mcgruff10 said:

What firearm sales don’t require a background check? And has any of these shooters acquired a firearm by bypassing a background check?

Not all states require background checks for sales through private (unlicensed) vendors

mrussel1 · February 2018

mcgruff10 said:

What firearm sales don’t require a background check? And has any of these shooters acquired a firearm by bypassing a background check?

Gun show..

oftenreading · February 2018

Some thoughts on internet conspiracy theorists pushing the "crisis actor" garbage, from those who have lived it - the parents of a child murdered at Sandy Hook

https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/23/opinions/conspiracy-hoaxers-parkland-sandy-hook-social-media-pozner-opinion/index.html

For those affected by gun violence, managing the pain in the aftermath becomes a full-time job. To then be forced to endure conspiracy theorists who are branding your tragedy an elaborately crafted hoax is a form of deliberate revictimization.

To be told that you are a hired actor in a performance designed to bring down the National Rifle Association and set fire to the Second Amendment, while you are in the process of making funeral arrangements for your murdered child, is a warped form of mental and emotional torture at the hands of an army of abusers.

This is the grim reality faced by many families whose loved ones became the victims of high-profile mass shootings.

The truth is that social media has normalized conspiracy theorists. As the parents of a Sandy Hook Elementary School shooting victim, 6-year-old Noah Pozner, we have battled with online platforms hosting hoaxer content for over five years. We know that disinformation is not declining, and certainly isn't going away. Unfortunately, our experience has shown that this problem isn't fading with time or through the conscious and deliberate dismissal by mainstream society of the despicable conspiracy content proliferating all over the internet.

Instead, the problem is steadily growing, as evidenced by the deluge of Parkland, Florida, shooting "hoax" content that showed up on social media platforms within mere hours after the tragic shooting at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School.

Children who endured the horror of a school shooter, and left grieving the deaths of 17 people who were their classmates and teachers and were brave enough to speak to the media, now face the consequences of scores of conspiracy theorists knowing their names and faces. Witnesses and family members of the deceased are being accused of being paid so-called crisis actors and instruments of supposed government agendas.

Today, these accusations fade into the background for the subjects of the charges. Their wounds are fresh and their activism takes up most of their attention, but eventually, life will settle down again, except for the relentless hostile intrusions of hoaxers.

Popular social media platforms and other online venues are blatantly culpable for enabling the actions of the abusers. They have opened the floodgates to an invasion of false narratives and the defamation of victims, which invariably leads to the escalation of abuse and harassment as a consequence of the hate the content they host incites.

Mass dissemination of these false narratives culminates in the wholesale theft of the victims' peaceful existence and isolates them in their grief at a time when they are at the peak of vulnerability.

The "hoax" narrative reached a fever pitch after Sandy Hook in 2012. As despicable as it was, nobody stopped them, and consequently, it spread like aggressive cancer. In 2012, the hoaxers were limited to the fringe, but today they are practically commonplace.

This is disturbing when you consider that inflammatory personalities like Alex Jones of Infowars, who make a tidy living peddling conspiracy nonsense and anti-government propaganda, have the ear of President Trump and those around him. This week, Donald Trump Jr. "liked" two tweets pushing conspiracy theories about a Parkland high school shooting survivor and his former FBI agent father.

The "hoaxer" ideology must be challenged, discredited and denounced. Often, deniers of mass shootings are also deniers of all violent mass casualty events, such as terrorist attacks like the Boston Marathon bombing. Many are also Holocaust deniers, flat Earth proponents, and moon landing deniers. Levels of psychological instability vary from individual to individual, from the harmless, deluded recluse to the dangerous psychopath with aspirations toward domestic terrorism.

We as a nation are at the hands of powerful forces that serve to widen the divide in this country, yet we are doing next to nothing about it. We are letting it happen, at our society's peril. Our national consciousness is being sold on the open market while graves are being filled at a dizzying pace.

Our politicians are beholden to special interests and big business who buy their loyalty with large campaign donations, at the expense of the interests of the people who elected them.

Social media and internet hosting companies are driven to preserve content that attracts viewers, and therefore drives advertising dollars, at the expense of truth and civility.

The question we must ask ourselves is, at what point will the societal environment be deemed so inhospitable, toxic and vile that we once again insist on dignity, honor and most of all, truth?

Entities like Facebook and Twitter need to be held accountable for the à la carte "alternative facts" they propagate. They are particularly resistant to removing offending content, even after repeated reporting. Wordpress/Automattic have also earned this unflattering distinction, in that they tend to ignore copyright claims and requests to remove images of minor children.

When called out for spreading a recent conspiracy theory, a Facebook spokesperson said it was "working to fix the product." Twitter has said it's working to stop users from harassing Parkland students with anti-spam and anti-abuse tools and verifying survivors' accounts. Automattic's general counsel has said in a blog post that "it's very difficult if not impossible for us, as a neutral, passive host, to determine the truth or falsity of a piece of content hosted on our service," which is why the company requires a court order in many situations.

Follow CNN Opinion

These companies are publishers -- no less, no more -- and must be held to the same standards as traditional media. It can be argued that they reach far more people than traditional media, and therefore have a responsibility to be good stewards of such enormous power.

We are in a crisis of truth, and crises can be precursors to change, provided we seize the opportunity.

Irish statesman, author, orator, political theorist and philosopher Edmund Burke famously said, "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."

These words have held true throughout history, as they do today.

unsung · February 2018

mrussel1 said:

mcgruff10 said:

What firearm sales don’t require a background check? And has any of these shooters acquired a firearm by bypassing a background check?

Gun show..

Not true.

Some States don't require documentation of private sales. If the seller at a gun show has an FFL the sale goes through a background check. Private sales are hard to find at gun shows, this isn't the 80's.

The gun show "loophole" is so overblown. There are private websites that have higher amounts of sales. Truthfully the last few gunshows I have gone to have totally sucked, many table don't even have firearms. They are becoming flea markets with sellers just pawning off tables full of garbage made in China knives.

Thirty Bills Unpaid · February 2018

https://mobile.nytimes.com/2018/02/24/opinion/sunday/marine-gun-classroom.html?smid=fb-share&referer=http://m.facebook.com

mrussel1 · February 2018

unsung said:

mrussel1 said:

mcgruff10 said:

What firearm sales don’t require a background check? And has any of these shooters acquired a firearm by bypassing a background check?

Gun show..

Not true.

Some States don't require documentation of private sales. If the seller at a gun show has an FFL the sale goes through a background check. Private sales are hard to find at gun shows, this isn't the 80's.

The gun show "loophole" is so overblown. There are private websites that have higher amounts of sales. Truthfully the last few gunshows I have gone to have totally sucked, many table don't even have firearms. They are becoming flea markets with sellers just pawning off tables full of garbage made in China knives.

Gun show loophole = private sales in many cases. And you're right, some states require the check, other don't. Any sale should accompany a background check whether it's private, gun show private, or gun show from a dealer.

mcgruff10 · February 2018

mrussel1 said:

unsung said:

mrussel1 said:

mcgruff10 said:

What firearm sales don’t require a background check? And has any of these shooters acquired a firearm by bypassing a background check?

Gun show..

Not true.

Some States don't require documentation of private sales. If the seller at a gun show has an FFL the sale goes through a background check. Private sales are hard to find at gun shows, this isn't the 80's.

The gun show "loophole" is so overblown. There are private websites that have higher amounts of sales. Truthfully the last few gunshows I have gone to have totally sucked, many table don't even have firearms. They are becoming flea markets with sellers just pawning off tables full of garbage made in China knives.

Gun show loophole = private sales in many cases. And you're right, some states require the check, other don't. Any sale should accompany a background check whether it's private, gun show private, or gun show from a dealer.

Totally agree. I wonder how many criminals use this loophole to acquire firearms. (my guess is not many)

mrussel1 · February 2018

mcgruff10 said:

mrussel1 said:

unsung said:

mrussel1 said:

mcgruff10 said:

What firearm sales don’t require a background check? And has any of these shooters acquired a firearm by bypassing a background check?

Gun show..

Not true.

Some States don't require documentation of private sales. If the seller at a gun show has an FFL the sale goes through a background check. Private sales are hard to find at gun shows, this isn't the 80's.

The gun show "loophole" is so overblown. There are private websites that have higher amounts of sales. Truthfully the last few gunshows I have gone to have totally sucked, many table don't even have firearms. They are becoming flea markets with sellers just pawning off tables full of garbage made in China knives.

Gun show loophole = private sales in many cases. And you're right, some states require the check, other don't. Any sale should accompany a background check whether it's private, gun show private, or gun show from a dealer.

Totally agree. I wonder how many criminals use this loophole to acquire firearms. (my guess is not many)

You have no way of knowing, and neither do I. However, if we institute universal background checks (which we should), but leave that part open, then you can be certain that anyone with a felony will use that process instead. Only stands to reason.

Thirty Bills Unpaid · February 2018

Something that hasn't been stated is the fact that background checks do nothing for the latent murderer.

While I agree that more stringency is still necessary... leaving AR15s available to the 'murderer to be' is simply put... not wise.

rgambs · February 2018

mcgruff10 said:

mrussel1 said:

unsung said:

mrussel1 said:

mcgruff10 said:

What firearm sales don’t require a background check? And has any of these shooters acquired a firearm by bypassing a background check?

Gun show..

Not true.

Some States don't require documentation of private sales. If the seller at a gun show has an FFL the sale goes through a background check. Private sales are hard to find at gun shows, this isn't the 80's.

The gun show "loophole" is so overblown. There are private websites that have higher amounts of sales. Truthfully the last few gunshows I have gone to have totally sucked, many table don't even have firearms. They are becoming flea markets with sellers just pawning off tables full of garbage made in China knives.

Gun show loophole = private sales in many cases. And you're right, some states require the check, other don't. Any sale should accompany a background check whether it's private, gun show private, or gun show from a dealer.

Totally agree. I wonder how many criminals use this loophole to acquire firearms. (my guess is not many)

That's how gangs get their guns. It's called the Iron Pipeline and it runs up the East coast and into the Midwest from the southern and midsouthern states.
Basically, a honcho has a bunch of lemmings buying guns over the counter or privately and selling to him for a profit. He then transfers them to gang areas where purchases are much more restricted, at a higher price again.

Thirty Bills Unpaid · February 2018

rgambs said:

mcgruff10 said:

mrussel1 said:

unsung said:

mrussel1 said:

mcgruff10 said:

What firearm sales don’t require a background check? And has any of these shooters acquired a firearm by bypassing a background check?

Gun show..

Not true.

Some States don't require documentation of private sales. If the seller at a gun show has an FFL the sale goes through a background check. Private sales are hard to find at gun shows, this isn't the 80's.

The gun show "loophole" is so overblown. There are private websites that have higher amounts of sales. Truthfully the last few gunshows I have gone to have totally sucked, many table don't even have firearms. They are becoming flea markets with sellers just pawning off tables full of garbage made in China knives.

Gun show loophole = private sales in many cases. And you're right, some states require the check, other don't. Any sale should accompany a background check whether it's private, gun show private, or gun show from a dealer.

Totally agree. I wonder how many criminals use this loophole to acquire firearms. (my guess is not many)

That's how gangs get their guns. It's called the Iron Pipeline and it runs up the East coast and into the Midwest from the southern and midsouthern states.
Basically, a honcho has a bunch of lemmings buying guns over the counter or privately and selling to him for a profit. He then transfers them to gang areas where purchases are much more restricted, at a higher price again.

See... to me... meaningful gun reform would also include heavy heavy penalties for these people: the honcho and the lemmings (with the honcho facing the stiffest of these penalties- a very undesirable prison term among other things).

dudeman · February 2018

Those stiff penalties already exist. Interstate gun trafficking is a federal crime.

You know how the right is always calling for enforcement of the laws we already have? This is a big one.

America's Gun Violence

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