"The mind's eye"/Mental Visualization - Do you have Aphantasia??

markymark550 said:

I had never heard of this. Interesting though. I think it applies to me as well. Every time someone says "close your eyes and think of ____" all I see is black (or that reddish hue if you're directly facing a light source). I never see the object, but rather focus on the concept of the object. I had never considered that people can actually "see" images in their mind, but I don't find this to be some profound revelation though. It just is what it is.

well I don't "see" anything either. as I said to soul, I don't know if I'm understanding this correctly. the image is in my mind, not on the backs of my eyelids. 

I wonder if this is more like a continuum than merely you can or can't picture things in your head?  I can think of things and then see them in my head, mostly still images but to some degree, movement, like maybe a particularly great excerpt from live musical footage or a scene in a movie.  I don't see these things with my eyes (be they open or closed), but I can see them in my head. 

But some people can see much more.  Temple Grandin, for example, who has a difficult time with abstract subjects, can look at a page in a book about something abstract (say, philosophy) and then walk around all day looking at that page in her head and studying it until it makes more sense. 

HughFreakingDillon said:

markymark550 said:

I had never heard of this. Interesting though. I think it applies to me as well. Every time someone says "close your eyes and think of ____" all I see is black (or that reddish hue if you're directly facing a light source). I never see the object, but rather focus on the concept of the object. I had never considered that people can actually "see" images in their mind, but I don't find this to be some profound revelation though. It just is what it is.

well I don't "see" anything either. as I said to soul, I don't know if I'm understanding this correctly. the image is in my mind, not on the backs of my eyelids. 

I don't get an image in my mind though. The dark/light through the eyelids just permeates through what I'm guessing is other people's mind eye.

PJ_Soul said:

markymark550 said:

I had never heard of this. Interesting though. I think it applies to me as well. Every time someone says "close your eyes and think of ____" all I see is black (or that reddish hue if you're directly facing a light source). I never see the object, but rather focus on the concept of the object. I had never considered that people can actually "see" images in their mind, but I don't find this to be some profound revelation though. It just is what it is.

Wow, really? Yeah, I'm finding it to be the most profound discovery of my entire life. It affects absolutely everything about me. How I process info, how I remember things, how I learn, memorize, recognize, read, write, speak, listen... fucking everything. Yes, it is what it is... which is everything!

Sorry I'm not more excited about it, but I tend to be pretty even keel over most things. Sure it has probably affected those things you mention, but at this point in my life I'm not looking for strategies to learn/memorize for school.

PJ_Soul said:

brianlux said:

I wonder if this is more like a continuum than merely you can or can't picture things in your head?  I can think of things and then see them in my head, mostly still images but to some degree, movement, like maybe a particularly great excerpt from live musical footage or a scene in a movie.  I don't see these things with my eyes (be they open or closed), but I can see them in my head. 

But some people can see much more.  Temple Grandin, for example, who has a difficult time with abstract subjects, can look at a page in a book about something abstract (say, philosophy) and then walk around all day looking at that page in her head and studying it until it makes more sense. 

Yes Brian, it comes in degrees. Some, like me, can literally not visualize anything at all. Others report it is more vague, or fuzzy, or even cartoonish in some way, while others say they can visualize everything as clearly as if it were real and in front of them (be it true representation or not - it's not like visualizations are always accurate... clearly they are not, and people's memories are not always accurate), and they are seeing in their mind's eye all the time like a running movie.People like that are classified as "hyperphantasic". Sounds like chadwick may be one of those. My mother is too I think. And yeah, I understand this is not seeing with the eyes. It is seeing in the "mind's eye". I think I only understand the difference because I thankfully still dream visually, so I get the different between seeing with your eyes and seeing in your head.... I just can't see in my head while I'm conscious. It's just blackness. I replace this visualization with language I guess - an inner monologue only, describing everything I guess, and then by just... knowing it without seeing it. I thought this was normal.

maybe it is normal. maybe no one could really quantify it until now. maybe it's like being blind, where in the absence of one sense,  your other senses are heightened. maybe you are a superhero! (sorry, not trying to make light of it, but it honestly could be more normal than you think, or an evolutionary thing-I think people discount the latter way too often when things like this are discovered). 

god I can't stand one of my coworkers sometimes. Just went to him to ask him how he visualizes things, and he and I are the same, and he went on this rant about how every hypochondriac is now going to take this survey (on BBC's website) and think they have a condition. He thinks we all just perceive things in different ways, and there's no way to quantify it. all by me just telling him about PJSoul's comments. Yeah, because he's cornered the market on brain research. Fuck. 

I dunno, I don't think it means you see the images with your eyes onto the back of your eyelids or whatever object appears in front of you, like you're projecting a hologram in front of yourself.  But that you can think about them and conjure up in your brain what it would look like. 

Like, when reading a book and the author describes the character's appearance and you can imagine what a little boy with red hair, freckles, a corduroy jacket, and tattered brown shoes looks like.  Like, I can "picture" that boy in my mind right now, and I can "picture" the brown lunch bag he might be carrying in his right hand, and the rock he just kicked with his right foot skipping down the sidewalk.  But I don't see a literal image of him with my actual eyes, I can conjure it up in my mind. 

I can think of my morning routine and I can envision myself in front of my bathroom sink, with the glass shelf and mirror in front of me, deodorant and medicine bottles, my toothbrush cup to the right, the water spots on the faucet, and my reflection in the mirror as I brush my teeth.  I can imagine myself driving home from work this evening, my right hand on the gear shifter, the Ford logo in the center of the steering wheel, the dials on the dashboard console, and the lines on the road home. I can imagine myself in a baseball uniform hitting a home run and rounding the bases while the crowd cheers me on and low-fiving the third base coach as I head for home, my cleats stepping on the plate before I head back to the dugout - even though that has never happened, I can picture the routine. 

I don't see any of this with my eyes as if it were right in front of me, or as if my eyelids are a movie screen.  And I don't even have to close my eyes to imagine what those things look like, either.  But I can "see" them subconsciously. Maybe some actually do "see" these things with their eyes as if they're right in front of them, which is probably just a more vivid, advanced version of the perception I'm capable of, and perhaps just as rare as not being able to perceive anything whatsoever.

Now, when I close my eyes what I literally "see" on the back of my eyelids is just the reddish green fuzziness from having your eyes closed.  But I can still "picture in my mind" all the things I just described.  Maybe I'm totally wrong but, from what I've read, I'm understanding it the same way Hugh is.  And, I, too, have always thought that's what was meant by "visualizing" and "mental pictures."  And that people affected by this can't do the things I described. 

The question that is interesting to me is how a person would learn to write without visualisation.
Are you sitting there thinking, OK I need to write an M, so start at bottom, straight up, stop, down and right at less than 45 degrees, stop, up and right, stop, down?

How do you go about learning a new letter?
How on Earth could you learn a logographic language like Mandarin?

PJ_Soul said:

Right, I know it doesn't mean you see anything with your actual eyes. It's your mind's eye. I get the concept completely. I understand the difference. I do not see anything with my mind's eye at all. Like when I read about that boy with the freckles, no, I can't picture anything in my mind. It's just blackness in my mind's eye. Blackness I guess is the best way I can describe it. I would say it's nothingness... Maybe more accurate because it doesn't feel like my mind's eye isn't functioning properly. It's like I don't have one at all, and in its place is an internal monologue (not auditory) without picturing a thing. I can't fucking believe that you folks are able to actually picture stuff in your mind, lol.
One of my colleagues told me to "picture a triangle". Well, I can't. So he asked, well, what are you thinking about?? I just said that I was thinking about a triangle, what do you mean?? He asked me how big is it, and what colour is it? ... I don't fucking know. Whatever size or colour I feel like saying? I'd just be making it up, like just choosing how big it is and what colour it is randomly and just saying that? The question actually feels like a logical absurdity to me.

.... This is weird. I am getting the impression it must be pretty hard to understand how my mind is working for those who have a mind's eye. I think I can only better understand what you all mean by having one because I am fortunately still able to dream visually. I can't imagine what it's like for people with aphantasia who can't even dream visually. The mind's eye must be a bigger mystery to them.

If someone asks you to draw a triangle, how do you proceed?

PJ_Soul said:

rgambs said:

The question that is interesting to me is how a person would learn to write without visualisation.
Are you sitting there thinking, OK I need to write an M, so start at bottom, straight up, stop, down and right at less than 45 degrees, stop, up and right, stop, down?

How do you go about learning a new letter?
How on Earth could you learn a logographic language like Mandarin?

Yes rgambs, you seem to understand exactly, because that is absolutely what the process of writing letters is for me, although it's easy, not as tedious as it looks when it's put into words like that. How do most people do it?? While I get the concept of the mind's eye, I'm not sure I understand how people are translating it in this context I guess. So when you write, you actually picture what the letters look like and then essentially copy it onto the paper????
How do I learn a new letter or shape? ... I dunno, I just remember and.... then I know it? I'm clearly still struggling to put such things into words. Until 2 days ago, I thought this was the only way it could be done, so I've never thought to try and describe it before.

I/we don't picture the letters explicitly in most cases, rote muscle memory renders that unnecessary, but for more complicated symbols, I would picture the symbol, pick a starting point, and try to recreate it from the image in my head.
Say I wanted to draw Homer Simpson, I would picture him for as long as it took until I thought I had the image accurate, which may take minutes, and then try to recreate from there. 
I absolutely do not understand how someone could create realist art and reproduce an image like a cartoon character without visualising it.  Unfathomable to me.