The Ocean. Fishing & Whaling. Sustainable? Illegal? Over fished?

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Comments

  • mcgruff10
    mcgruff10 New Jersey Posts: 29,116
    Why is it the meat of farm raised and wild caught salmon look different?
    I'll ride the wave where it takes me......
  • mcgruff10
    mcgruff10 New Jersey Posts: 29,116
    Found the answer to my own question:

    I'll ride the wave where it takes me......
  • jeffbr
    jeffbr Seattle Posts: 7,177
    oftenreading said:
    More recent studies do not find higher levels of PCBs in farmed fish. PCBs are commonly found in wild  fish, too. 

    Farmed salmon  are higher in omega 3 fatty acids than wild. 

    Farmed fish get their colour from the same sources as wild fish - naturally occurring pigments found in krill and other small shellfish. 
    Farmed fish get their color because synthetic colorants canthaxanthin and/or astaxanthin are added to their pellets. Those colorants are created from things you mentioned, but they are added to pellets, they aren't getting them  Add disinfectants, fungicides, and a host of other chemicals, and you've got quite a cocktail. Are there requirements yet in Canada to disclose that coloring agents were used, or color added? It is required now in the US, so all farm raised Atlantic salmon say "color added" or something to that effect.

    As far as having more omega 3 fatty acids, that makes sense, since the farmers can add as much fatty fish (like anchovies) to the food fed to the farmed fish. That amount appears to be going down, however because too many anchovies were being harvested for fish food. It takes fish oil from 5 pounds of wild fish (sardines and anchovies typically), and the fishmeal from 1.3 pounds of wild fish for 1 pound of farm raised salmon.
    "I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
  • jeffbr
    jeffbr Seattle Posts: 7,177
    mcgruff10 said:
    jeffbr said:
    The Alaska fisheries are some of the most sustainable in the world. Limited entries, controlled quotas, and lots of monitoring.

    Like Go Beavers, I eat seafood, but avoid farmed seafood. Those shrimp farms in Asia are disgusting mud holes (and they provide 90% of the shrimp in the US).  And for some reason Atlantic salmon is farmed up here in the Northwest, even though wild Pacific salmon is the best in the world. I dislike the taste and texture of farm raised Atlantic salmon (not to mention the coloring they have to add to make it look halfway appetizing). We just had a disaster here where an Atlantic salmon fish farm's pen collapsed, and a quarter million Atlantic salmon are now swimming free. Department of Wildlife just gave the green light to fishermen to catch as many as they can, no limits, no size restrictions, just to try to get as many as possible out of the water before they start heading for local rivers. Apparently these farm raised salmon are harder to catch, because they've been fed pellets all their lives, so normal salmon fishing techniques aren't as effective. :angry: 
    The most disgusting fish in the world is tilapia.  I refuse to eat that shit (no pun intended).  But I do agree, I won't eat seafood unless it's wild caught.  Those asian shrimp are definitely nasty Jeff!
    I'm with you on talapia, too, Mike! Those farms are nasty. Those are some real shit eating fish. None for me, thanks.
    "I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
  • brianlux
    brianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 43,662
    edited August 2017
    I would love to hear from any scientists here who study ocean life or anyone for that matter who is well read on the subject but I'm not going to engage in any arguments here.  I only stated what I believe to be true based on what I've read. 

    But don't take my word for it.  In fact, I'm would strongly encourage everyone NOT to take my word for it.  I am not a scientist.  Anyone here will learn a lot more from reading and studying works by Jacques Cousteau, Jane Lubchenco, Captain Paul Watson, Edward O. Wilson, Farley Mowat, , Carl Safina and National Geographic Ocean Views.

    "It's a sad and beautiful world"
    -Roberto Benigni

  • mcgruff10
    mcgruff10 New Jersey Posts: 29,116

    I read a book called "four fish" and it opened up my eyes to the fishing industry.  
    https://www.amazon.com/Four-Fish-Future-Last-Wild/dp/014311946X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1503707109&sr=8-1&keywords=four+fish
    I'll ride the wave where it takes me......
  • oftenreading
    oftenreading Victoria, BC Posts: 12,856
    mcgruff10 said:
    Found the answer to my own question:

    Well, that's certainly unbiased...
    my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
  • oftenreading
    oftenreading Victoria, BC Posts: 12,856
    mcgruff10 said:
    Found the answer to my own question:

    Actually, an accurate answer would be that the one on the left is Atlantic salmon and the one on the right is Pacific. But don't let that get in the way of a good story. 
    my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
  • oftenreading
    oftenreading Victoria, BC Posts: 12,856
    I want to answer jeff's post but my phone keeps getting caught in nested quotes Hell. 

    Yes, the astaxanthin is added to the feed; of course, since that's what the fish eat. But it's generally naturally derived so I wouldn't call it artificial. 
    my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
  • oftenreading
    oftenreading Victoria, BC Posts: 12,856
    Astaxanthin is also added to the feed of hatchery salmonids raised for enhancement, so if you eat any fish coming from those sources, you're eating "artificial" carotenoids 
    my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
  • tempo_n_groove
    tempo_n_groove Posts: 41,372
    oftenreading said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    Found the answer to my own question:

    Actually, an accurate answer would be that the one on the left is Atlantic salmon and the one on the right is Pacific. But don't let that get in the way of a good story. 
    There is almost no such thing as "wild Atlantic salmon".  Reason?  

    All of the natural spawning grounds have been blocked by locks and dams.  

    Locals of Seattle will know that Ballard locks has a "bypass" for the fish to go through.  This is something the east coast never thought to do.

    That pic above clearly shows a farm raised Atlantic on the left.  The right pic looks like a red salmon or sockeye.  That's the tastiest of the bunch and the darkest in color.  King salmon are for the sportsman, the sockeye is for the people who enjoy a flavorful fish.
  • oftenreading
    oftenreading Victoria, BC Posts: 12,856
    edited August 2017
    tempo_n_groove said:
    oftenreading said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    Found the answer to my own question:

    Actually, an accurate answer would be that the one on the left is Atlantic salmon and the one on the right is Pacific. But don't let that get in the way of a good story. 
    There is almost no such thing as "wild Atlantic salmon".  Reason?  

    All of the natural spawning grounds have been blocked by locks and dams.  

    Locals of Seattle will know that Ballard locks has a "bypass" for the fish to go through.  This is something the east coast never thought to do.

    That pic above clearly shows a farm raised Atlantic on the left.  The right pic looks like a red salmon or sockeye.  That's the tastiest of the bunch and the darkest in color.  King salmon are for the sportsman, the sockeye is for the people who enjoy a flavorful fish.

    You are correct that there is almost no such thing as wild Atlantic salmon any more, though my understanding is that that is more due to massive overfishing than to destruction/blockage of the spawning grounds. At least, that's what occurred in Europe.

    Yes, the one on the left is surely a farmed Atlantic salmon, for that reason. The one on the right is surely a Pacific salmon, and thus wild, since farming of Pacifics is very rare.

    "Tastiest", I would say, is subjective, like with any food. Those who are used to Atlantics (i.e. all of Europe) often prefer them.

    Edit: I seem to be having trouble condensing my posts today. Meant to also say that my statement still stands - it isn't reasonable to compare Atlantic and Pacific and say that the only difference is that one is wild and one is farmed.
    Post edited by oftenreading on
    my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
  • oftenreading
    oftenreading Victoria, BC Posts: 12,856
    mcgruff10 said:
    Found the answer to my own question:

    While on the topic - I've never seen reputable medical associations warning women and children not to eat farmed fish. Do you know what I have seen? Lots of warnings that pregnant women not eat fish high in mercury. And wild salmonids have been found to be higher in mercury than farmed salmonids; up to three times higher, though the gap is closing somewhat in more recent studies.

    I have no idea what the whale reference is all about.  Does it refer to whales caught in fish farm nets? That happens, rarely. What happens much, much more frequently is whales caught in capture fishery equipment - nets or lines.
    my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
  • tempo_n_groove
    tempo_n_groove Posts: 41,372
    oftenreading said:
    tempo_n_groove said:
    oftenreading said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    Found the answer to my own question:

    Actually, an accurate answer would be that the one on the left is Atlantic salmon and the one on the right is Pacific. But don't let that get in the way of a good story. 
    There is almost no such thing as "wild Atlantic salmon".  Reason?  

    All of the natural spawning grounds have been blocked by locks and dams.  

    Locals of Seattle will know that Ballard locks has a "bypass" for the fish to go through.  This is something the east coast never thought to do.

    That pic above clearly shows a farm raised Atlantic on the left.  The right pic looks like a red salmon or sockeye.  That's the tastiest of the bunch and the darkest in color.  King salmon are for the sportsman, the sockeye is for the people who enjoy a flavorful fish.

    You are correct that there is almost no such thing as wild Atlantic salmon any more, though my understanding is that that is more due to massive overfishing than to destruction/blockage of the spawning grounds. At least, that's what occurred in Europe.

    Yes, the one on the left is surely a farmed Atlantic salmon, for that reason. The one on the right is surely a Pacific salmon, and thus wild, since farming of Pacifics is very rare.

    "Tastiest", I would say, is subjective, like with any food. Those who are used to Atlantics (i.e. all of Europe) often prefer them.

    Edit: I seem to be having trouble condensing my posts today. Meant to also say that my statement still stands - it isn't reasonable to compare Atlantic and Pacific and say that the only difference is that one is wild and one is farmed.
    If you've ate Atlantic salmon and prefered it over a sockeye then you must like Golden Coral, McDonalds and KFC as your fine dining.
  • tempo_n_groove
    tempo_n_groove Posts: 41,372
    oftenreading said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    Found the answer to my own question:

    While on the topic - I've never seen reputable medical associations warning women and children not to eat farmed fish. Do you know what I have seen? Lots of warnings that pregnant women not eat fish high in mercury. And wild salmonids have been found to be higher in mercury than farmed salmonids; up to three times higher, though the gap is closing somewhat in more recent studies.

    I have no idea what the whale reference is all about.  Does it refer to whales caught in fish farm nets? That happens, rarely. What happens much, much more frequently is whales caught in capture fishery equipment - nets or lines.
    Mercury is found in ALL fish now.  Bigger the fish, bigger the fatty deposits, more mercury in the fish.

    I'm impressed with your knowledge of the industry @oftenreading
  • oftenreading
    oftenreading Victoria, BC Posts: 12,856
    tempo_n_groove said:
    oftenreading said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    Found the answer to my own question:

    While on the topic - I've never seen reputable medical associations warning women and children not to eat farmed fish. Do you know what I have seen? Lots of warnings that pregnant women not eat fish high in mercury. And wild salmonids have been found to be higher in mercury than farmed salmonids; up to three times higher, though the gap is closing somewhat in more recent studies.

    I have no idea what the whale reference is all about.  Does it refer to whales caught in fish farm nets? That happens, rarely. What happens much, much more frequently is whales caught in capture fishery equipment - nets or lines.
    Mercury is found in ALL fish now.  Bigger the fish, bigger the fatty deposits, more mercury in the fish.

    I'm impressed with your knowledge of the industry @oftenreading
    Yeah, basically present in all fish, though as you say the larger, pelagic carnivores are the worst due to bioconcentration. 
     
    my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
  • Thirty Bills Unpaid
    Thirty Bills Unpaid Posts: 16,881
    tempo_n_groove said:
    oftenreading said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    Found the answer to my own question:

    While on the topic - I've never seen reputable medical associations warning women and children not to eat farmed fish. Do you know what I have seen? Lots of warnings that pregnant women not eat fish high in mercury. And wild salmonids have been found to be higher in mercury than farmed salmonids; up to three times higher, though the gap is closing somewhat in more recent studies.

    I have no idea what the whale reference is all about.  Does it refer to whales caught in fish farm nets? That happens, rarely. What happens much, much more frequently is whales caught in capture fishery equipment - nets or lines.
    Mercury is found in ALL fish now.  Bigger the fish, bigger the fatty deposits, more mercury in the fish.

    I'm impressed with your knowledge of the industry @oftenreading
    Often is a seagoing islander that spends the day digging up gooey duck and watching the beachcombers. Every now and then compares shark bite scars with friends.
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • JC29856
    JC29856 Posts: 9,617
    interesting topic...generally asking? is it better to eat farm or wild caught?
  • oftenreading
    oftenreading Victoria, BC Posts: 12,856
    Don't take the bait, people.
    my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
  • oftenreading
    oftenreading Victoria, BC Posts: 12,856
    Thirty Bills Unpaid said:
    tempo_n_groove said:
    oftenreading said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    Found the answer to my own question:

    While on the topic - I've never seen reputable medical associations warning women and children not to eat farmed fish. Do you know what I have seen? Lots of warnings that pregnant women not eat fish high in mercury. And wild salmonids have been found to be higher in mercury than farmed salmonids; up to three times higher, though the gap is closing somewhat in more recent studies.

    I have no idea what the whale reference is all about.  Does it refer to whales caught in fish farm nets? That happens, rarely. What happens much, much more frequently is whales caught in capture fishery equipment - nets or lines.
    Mercury is found in ALL fish now.  Bigger the fish, bigger the fatty deposits, more mercury in the fish.

    I'm impressed with your knowledge of the industry @oftenreading
    Often is a seagoing islander that spends the day digging up gooey duck and watching the beachcombers. Every now and then compares shark bite scars with friends.

    Ha!  That would be correct, if I had any friends ;).
    my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf

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