How old is too young?

JH6056 · July 2017

drakeheuer14 said:

More than 1000 shows? Dang

I've slowed way down since having kids, but it's actually over 1500 now. Happens when you: 1) live in big cities; 2) work in college radio (volunteered in several cities) = free tickets; 3) have a zillion musician friends; and 4) consider live music a major part of your social life and tend to meet friends / sig o's at shows instead of bars.

Thanks gosh my smoke allergies waited until I got older to get worse, or it would be more like 200 shows now! Or... maybe all those shows are why I have worse smoke allergies now? Go figure.

JH6056 · July 2017

brianlux said:

JH6056 said:

brianlux said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

brianlux said:

When I was a little kid my parents like to do adult things with their adult friends and us kids stayed home with the baby sitter. I had no problem with that and I had no interest in doing adult things with my adult parents. So why is the current parenting generation so hung up about wanting their children to participate in adult activities? Are they themselves having a hard time being adults? Is it because they want to show off their kids to everyone around them? Do they want to turn their children into miniature adults? Honestly, I don't get it. (And yes, though not a biological father, I have had parenting experience.)

live music is an adult thing now? I didn't take my daughter to a burlesque show. I took her to a rock show.

my wife and I do plenty of adult things on our own; kids with my parents. I don't see your point at all, brian. I see narcissistic tendencies with the selfie generation and stuff like that, but I don't see any trend of parents being hung up about children participating in adult activities. examples?

when my wife was a bartender in scotland, she told me stories about how families do everything together. they go to the pub, children in tow, to a drinking establishment on fridays after work. the first time I heard that, I couldn't believe it. I thought "what horrible people these scots are!". then I realized people in north america are just so fucking uptight about everything.

I'm not at the point, and doubtful I ever will be, of taking my kids to the pub, but to a live music event she wanted to go to? if my daughter shares my passion and begs me to go, then I'm cultivating that.

It depends on the show and the venue. My folks took me to see the new Christie Minstrels at an out-door family event. No problem. But if they had taken me at the age where my senses were still developing to a venue to see a band with ear damaging levels of sound (keep in mind is its not possible to attenuate more than 40 dBs of volume) and where a large percentage of the crowd is drunk and/or stoned and/or etc., is that I good idea?

I'm not telling anyone what they should do, but as you well know (lol) I'm not afraid to express my opinion wither. I think it's a bad idea.

Brian I've checked with 4 pediatricians officially (and several unofficially), as well as many band soundmen and musicians with young kids. They ALL say that the earmuff/headphone ear protectors you can buy for kids do a perfectly good job at protecting hearing at US rock concerts and my kid for one, who's been at shows since she was an infant, has perfect hearing according to her pediatricians (10 yrs old now). What is your source if you're saying that those ear protectors do not do a sufficient job of protecting young ears at US rock concerts and festivals?

American Tinnitus Association (ATA). Yes, due to my hearing damage, I'm rather sensitive to this issue.

I'm not telling anyone here what to do. Just giving some food for thought.

William Shatner once said he was not sure he would survive having tinnitus (he got help and did and later went on to be a board member of ATA).

One doctor alone reported knowing 8 people who committed suicide due to tinnitus. I was almost one of them.

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/Depression/tinnitus-suicide/story?id=15003057

I'm sorry you have that, and yes I've heard how bad it can be and the connection to suicide. That's gotta suck majorly, sorry you deal with it.

That said, your link doesn't address any insufficiency in today's ear protectors or any evidence that even wearing those religiously can lead to tinnitus. Where is that link, since you said the protection for kids is not enough?

PJ_Soul · July 2017

drakeheuer14 said:

You took an infant to a rock show?

Now THAT I think is weird. I have seen someone with an infant at a PJ show, and it was actually a distraction to everyone who even saw the woman from across the floor, let alone those sitting next to her. In the moment, it was very clear that it was an inappropriate place for a little baby, and just about everyone I saw looking (staring in disbelief) at her obviously felt genuine concern for that baby's well being. That is not a good way to feel at a concert. And that show turned out to have the loudest fucking opener in the history of the world - it was so loud it made you feel sick. Just the vibrations from it were more than a little unsettling. And I really do find it hard to believe that an infant's hearing isn't at risk just because they are wearing random headphones, especially not with noise levels like they were at that show. At least half the time I see kids with headphones on, they don't even fit properly, the kid is shifting them around, etc. I don't think their hearing is being as well protected as some parents want to believe a lot of the time.

JH6056 · July 2017

PJ_Soul said:

drakeheuer14 said:

You took an infant to a rock show?

Now THAT I think is weird. I have seen someone with an infant at a PJ show, and it was actually a distraction to everyone who even saw the woman from across the floor, let alone those sitting next to her. In the moment, it was very clear that it was a very inappropriate place for a little baby, and just about everyone I saw looking at her obviously felt genuine concern for that baby's well being. That is not a good way to feel at a concert. And that show turned out to have the loudest fucking opener in the history of the world - it was so loud it made you feel sick. Just the vibrations from it were more than a little unsettling. And I really do find it hard to believe that an infant's hearing isn't at risk just because they are wearing random headphones, especially not with noise levels like they were at that show. At least half the time I see kids with headphones on, they don't even fit properly, the kid is shifting them around, etc. I don't think their hearing is being as well protected as some parents want to believe a lot of the time.

You're totally free to think it's weird, but given that the below was the situation, tell me exactly how it was bad for my kid? Everyone around us was awesome, and there were actually 2 other babies there too, also with ear protection. And by the way, I saw someone with an infant in the GA pit of a PJ show and I had an issue with that myself, just because even though they hung in the back, I've seen spontaneous mosh pits jump up in the back too and I'd not want to be caught off guard by a surge in the crowd with a tiny baby. I feel like it's their right to bring the kid, but that's something I wouldn't have done.

Also, still really interested to hear why you think smoking weed, which there's no way for anyone doing it to keep to themselves, is somehow "appropriate" at shows even when it's having a physical effect on someone close by and you think they'd be an asshole to call security?

So given the below context, what was harmful about that situation? Why is it so weird or so bad? Not challenging your right to see it that way, just wondering what about it exactly you see as harmful or bad?

"Flight of the Conchords, all reserved seats in a theater. She ate, slept, looked around, ate, slept. Didn't wake up once between the middle of the show and the middle of the night when she always woke up to eat more (i.e. slept through rest of show, backpack carrier out to car, car seat in, ride home, car seat out, getting in bed). We love FoTC, couldn't afford tix and a babysitter, and she sleeps like a rock so she literally seemed oblivious to where we were, as long as she had the basics. And NO ONE was smoking weed because that theater doesn't mess around re: smoke.

And, it was less loud than a regular rock show, but it still RAWKED!

(And we knew by then she wouldn't keep taking off the ear protectors)

Glad we saw it too, they haven't toured as FoTC again until last year and we couldn't go."

what dreams · July 2017

HughFreakingDillon said:

what dreams said:

I'm pretty sure the most recent message has been, "my wife will be sick for days from your pot smoke" and "I have a serious allergy, so stop." Forgive me for interpreting that to mean, "My kid is more special than your buzz." You're right. I confused my original concern for smoking in front of your child with your adult issues.

Look, I generally don't waste time on the Internet debating shit. So thank you for sharing all your thoughts. Enjoy your next show.

you are clearly confused.

-smoke pot at a show if you wish (I used to)
-someone who rats someone out for doing so is well within their right to do so, and is not an "asshole", because they might have health issues related to that
-my kid is not more special than your buzz. my kid does not affect you, your pot smoke may affect others.

at weezer, as I've said, someone lit up a few rows over at the beginning of the show, as they opened with Hash Pipe. I laughed to myself and hoped she wouldn't ask me about it. and she didn't. so it was all good.

when i used to smoke at shows, if I was next to a kid or an older couple, I just wouldn't smoke. common courtesy. I would survey my surroundings and make that call based on my observations.

I give a shit about others.

Dude, I really don't appreciate the implication that I don't care about others. In fact, I said that I'm really not cool as an adult smoking weed in front of a kid, being very aware of the impression that would make. I then said I would get really, really annoyed if someone asked me to stop. I didn't say I wouldn't stop. I said I would be annoyed if asked. I would probably take one long toke, hold my breath for as long as I could and then blow it in the other direction, all while trying to hide the scene from your infant, toddler, or whatever because I'm not all about corrupting minors.

No need to get all judgmental. Isn't that what you complained about earlier? Just leave me out of your issues. That's all I want in this world, for everybody to leave each other alone. Including the ones who -- Yes -- really don't enjoy having children around when they're trying to chill out. Kids stress me the fuck out. Even when they're just sitting there bopping out, I start worrying about them and take on the caretaker role, and I just don't want that for myself at a fucking concert. It's what I do for a living, and when I'm around them I can't turn it off, which is why I don't want to be near them at concerts on MY time. Sorry you don't understand that or assume my motives are selfish. I don't have to fucking explain or justify myself to anyone in the arena -- unless the cops bust me and I'll deal with that responsibility myself, thank you very much.

So really, you can reply with whatever, but I'm done. Going for a workout to build up my lungs.

PJ_Soul · July 2017

JH6056 said:

PJ_Soul said:

drakeheuer14 said:

You took an infant to a rock show?

Now THAT I think is weird. I have seen someone with an infant at a PJ show, and it was actually a distraction to everyone who even saw the woman from across the floor, let alone those sitting next to her. In the moment, it was very clear that it was a very inappropriate place for a little baby, and just about everyone I saw looking at her obviously felt genuine concern for that baby's well being. That is not a good way to feel at a concert. And that show turned out to have the loudest fucking opener in the history of the world - it was so loud it made you feel sick. Just the vibrations from it were more than a little unsettling. And I really do find it hard to believe that an infant's hearing isn't at risk just because they are wearing random headphones, especially not with noise levels like they were at that show. At least half the time I see kids with headphones on, they don't even fit properly, the kid is shifting them around, etc. I don't think their hearing is being as well protected as some parents want to believe a lot of the time.

You're totally free to think it's weird, but given that the below was the situation, tell me exactly how it was bad for my kid? Everyone around us was awesome, and there were actually 2 other babies there too, also with ear protection. So given the below, what is the situation?

Also, still really interested to hear why you think smoking weed, which there's no way for anyone doing it to keep to themselves, is somehow "appropriate" at shows even when it's having a physical effect on someone close by and you think they'd be an asshole to call security?

"Flight of the Conchords, all reserved seats in a theater. She ate, slept, looked around, ate, slept. Didn't wake up once between the middle of the show and the middle of the night when she always woke up to eat more (i.e. slept through rest of show, backpack carrier out to car, car seat in, ride home, car seat out, getting in bed). We love FoTC, couldn't afford tix and a babysitter, and she sleeps like a rock so she literally seemed oblivious to where we were, as long as she had the basics. And NO ONE was smoking weed because that theater doesn't mess around re: smoke.

And, it was less loud than a regular rock show, but it still RAWKED! (And we knew by then she wouldn't keep taking off the ear protectors)

Glad we saw it too, they haven't toured as FoTC again until last year and we couldn't go."

If it's not loud then it's not a problem, obviously. I mean, same with babies at music festivals, where people are basically just picnicking outside. That is different (I personally don't care to have random babies anywhere near me at the best of times in any situation, lol - if I could move away from one, I would). But a baby at a crazy loud indoor rock concert, no, that is dangerous for a baby IMO. My thinking it's weird is irrelevant.

2-feign-reluctance · July 2017

what dreams said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

what dreams said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

mace1229 said:

I don't get half the comments in this thread.
first, the repeated notion of "why would you let what others think dictate what you do?" Well that's called common courtesy. I'm assuming anyone who says that is the guy holding the annoying banner blocking the view of 20 people behind him for half the show. Taking into consideration how others feel is the basics behind common courtesy, so I don't know why that is treated like a bad thing.

that being said, who has ever been bothered by a kid at a show? Never even occurred to me that anyone could be bothered by a kid until I read some comments. My first though when I see a kid at a show or game is "dang it, now I'm going to look like a dick if I reach over their head to grab a foul ball or t-shirt," but that's about the extent of it.
what age is too young is up to the parents. Personally for me probably not under 12 for PJ. I know very few kids 7 or 8 who are into their own music that isn't going to make me wish hateful things on the band. And so I just don't see the point of spending that money.
Each parent should decide their own filter. I don't get the criticism about that. I personally probably wouldn't want to expose my kids to everything that entails a Pj show until 10 or 12. And just because what said on the playground is worse than anything on TV doesn't mean I'm going to put on Game of Thrones for them. I'll still censor when I can until they are older.

my kid is not blocking your view. my kid is sitting there with her headphones on, bopping her head to the music. if that ruins your time, then yes, that is your problem, not anyone else's.

i have yet to hear one single solitary reason why my kid being at a show effects your time. not one.

One reason: Total buzz kill. As a parent, you may be cool with your child watching me smoke pot. I'm not cool smoking pot in front of children. It would definitely affect my high, and please don't tell me not to light up because that would really, really annoy me even more.

now this is rich: you don't want my kid there to ruin your time, but it's because you want to do something illegal and that has the potential to bother many people around you, but no one's allowed to tell you not to light up if it's ruining their time?

I smoke weed. But I don't smoke weed at indoor shows anymore as I understand how bothersome it can be to people around me. not to mention running the risk of getting kicked out of the show.

Oh, I'm sure there will be people who tell me what I can and cannot do everywhere and anywhere . . . Isn't what this whole thread is about? Someone asked for an opinion on what to do regarding a child. If the acceptable answer to the parent is "whatever floats your boat, daddy" then I expect the same respect. It floats my boat to smoke weed at concerts. Sorry that bothers anybody, but sitting next to your kid bothers me. I can't very well ask you not to bring your child, can I? In fact, I haven't. My consistent position is just that I hope I never sit next to one, as well as hoping I don't sit near the pot police either. Sorry not everyone is in love with your child. I know that's hard to believe as a parent, but maybe you can work on letting that sink in.

You win assholiest comment of this entire thread sparky marijuana pants.

PJfanwillneverleave1 · July 2017

Mini Porch battles are fun to read.
Now that some engines are revved try a spin on AMT.

PJ_Soul · July 2017

JH6056 said:

brianlux said:

JH6056 said:

brianlux said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

brianlux said:

When I was a little kid my parents like to do adult things with their adult friends and us kids stayed home with the baby sitter. I had no problem with that and I had no interest in doing adult things with my adult parents. So why is the current parenting generation so hung up about wanting their children to participate in adult activities? Are they themselves having a hard time being adults? Is it because they want to show off their kids to everyone around them? Do they want to turn their children into miniature adults? Honestly, I don't get it. (And yes, though not a biological father, I have had parenting experience.)

live music is an adult thing now? I didn't take my daughter to a burlesque show. I took her to a rock show.

my wife and I do plenty of adult things on our own; kids with my parents. I don't see your point at all, brian. I see narcissistic tendencies with the selfie generation and stuff like that, but I don't see any trend of parents being hung up about children participating in adult activities. examples?

when my wife was a bartender in scotland, she told me stories about how families do everything together. they go to the pub, children in tow, to a drinking establishment on fridays after work. the first time I heard that, I couldn't believe it. I thought "what horrible people these scots are!". then I realized people in north america are just so fucking uptight about everything.

I'm not at the point, and doubtful I ever will be, of taking my kids to the pub, but to a live music event she wanted to go to? if my daughter shares my passion and begs me to go, then I'm cultivating that.

It depends on the show and the venue. My folks took me to see the new Christie Minstrels at an out-door family event. No problem. But if they had taken me at the age where my senses were still developing to a venue to see a band with ear damaging levels of sound (keep in mind is its not possible to attenuate more than 40 dBs of volume) and where a large percentage of the crowd is drunk and/or stoned and/or etc., is that I good idea?

I'm not telling anyone what they should do, but as you well know (lol) I'm not afraid to express my opinion wither. I think it's a bad idea.

Brian I've checked with 4 pediatricians officially (and several unofficially), as well as many band soundmen and musicians with young kids. They ALL say that the earmuff/headphone ear protectors you can buy for kids do a perfectly good job at protecting hearing at US rock concerts and my kid for one, who's been at shows since she was an infant, has perfect hearing according to her pediatricians (10 yrs old now). What is your source if you're saying that those ear protectors do not do a sufficient job of protecting young ears at US rock concerts and festivals?

American Tinnitus Association (ATA). Yes, due to my hearing damage, I'm rather sensitive to this issue.

I'm not telling anyone here what to do. Just giving some food for thought.

William Shatner once said he was not sure he would survive having tinnitus (he got help and did and later went on to be a board member of ATA).

One doctor alone reported knowing 8 people who committed suicide due to tinnitus. I was almost one of them.

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/Depression/tinnitus-suicide/story?id=15003057

I'm sorry you have that, and yes I've heard how bad it can be and the connection to suicide. That's gotta suck majorly, sorry you deal with it.

That said, your link doesn't address any insufficiency in today's ear protectors or any evidence that even wearing those religiously can lead to tinnitus. Where is that link, since you said the protection for kids is not enough?

I mentioned before that I see little kids with them on all the time, and half the time I specifically see those earmuff headphone come away from their ears. I don't doubt the technical merits of the headphones. I doubt the ability of the parents to make sure they actually fit properly to ensure an airtight fit and to keep their kids from shifting them around on their head. There is no way the hearing of many kids I've seen at shows was adequately protected - it's easy to tell if it's not when you can see air between the headphones and the kid's ear! ... While I'm not a fan of kids at concerts in general for selfish reasons, my first concern really is their safety and welfare (part of why I am not a fan of them being there - I think i resent feeling scared for someone else's kid, lol), and I've been worried about the fact that I can see those things moving around and seeing space between them and the kid's skin. Happens so often, I feel like it's the norm.

JH6056 · July 2017

JH6056 said:

brianlux said:

JH6056 said:

brianlux said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

brianlux said:

When I was a little kid my parents like to do adult things with their adult friends and us kids stayed home with the baby sitter. I had no problem with that and I had no interest in doing adult things with my adult parents. So why is the current parenting generation so hung up about wanting their children to participate in adult activities? Are they themselves having a hard time being adults? Is it because they want to show off their kids to everyone around them? Do they want to turn their children into miniature adults? Honestly, I don't get it. (And yes, though not a biological father, I have had parenting experience.)

live music is an adult thing now? I didn't take my daughter to a burlesque show. I took her to a rock show.

my wife and I do plenty of adult things on our own; kids with my parents. I don't see your point at all, brian. I see narcissistic tendencies with the selfie generation and stuff like that, but I don't see any trend of parents being hung up about children participating in adult activities. examples?

when my wife was a bartender in scotland, she told me stories about how families do everything together. they go to the pub, children in tow, to a drinking establishment on fridays after work. the first time I heard that, I couldn't believe it. I thought "what horrible people these scots are!". then I realized people in north america are just so fucking uptight about everything.

I'm not at the point, and doubtful I ever will be, of taking my kids to the pub, but to a live music event she wanted to go to? if my daughter shares my passion and begs me to go, then I'm cultivating that.

It depends on the show and the venue. My folks took me to see the new Christie Minstrels at an out-door family event. No problem. But if they had taken me at the age where my senses were still developing to a venue to see a band with ear damaging levels of sound (keep in mind is its not possible to attenuate more than 40 dBs of volume) and where a large percentage of the crowd is drunk and/or stoned and/or etc., is that I good idea?

I'm not telling anyone what they should do, but as you well know (lol) I'm not afraid to express my opinion wither. I think it's a bad idea.

Brian I've checked with 4 pediatricians officially (and several unofficially), as well as many band soundmen and musicians with young kids. They ALL say that the earmuff/headphone ear protectors you can buy for kids do a perfectly good job at protecting hearing at US rock concerts and my kid for one, who's been at shows since she was an infant, has perfect hearing according to her pediatricians (10 yrs old now). What is your source if you're saying that those ear protectors do not do a sufficient job of protecting young ears at US rock concerts and festivals?

American Tinnitus Association (ATA). Yes, due to my hearing damage, I'm rather sensitive to this issue.

I'm not telling anyone here what to do. Just giving some food for thought.

William Shatner once said he was not sure he would survive having tinnitus (he got help and did and later went on to be a board member of ATA).

One doctor alone reported knowing 8 people who committed suicide due to tinnitus. I was almost one of them.

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/Depression/tinnitus-suicide/story?id=15003057

I'm sorry you have that, and yes I've heard how bad it can be and the connection to suicide. That's gotta suck majorly, sorry you deal with it.

That said, your link doesn't address any insufficiency in today's ear protectors or any evidence that even wearing those religiously can lead to tinnitus. Where is that link, since you said the protection for kids is not enough?

Brian I just got to read all of the articles you linked to (skimmed before, got to read now). No one in any of those got tinnitus from going to shows and wearing ear protection regularly. Everyone was either no protection, crazy loud noises (like in military war settings), head injuries, or it didn't say how they got it.

From your comment above it sounded like you were saying even regular use of ear protection at shows doesn't protect you from tinnitus, which is counter to what pediatricians and sound people in the music business have told me. Please share your source - it's pretty important in this conversation if you're saying there's evidence ear protection is NOT enough at regular US rock shows.

rustneversleeps · July 2017

PROUD PARENTS

cp3iverson · July 2017

Not gonna care too much for people crying that they cant smoke weed or cigarettes at shows without being hassled or this and that. Hate that smell. LOL.

If people and parents use common sense things usually go okay. Don't put you kids in bad situations and always protect them. Its like the moms at the dollar store parking lot who walk five feet in front of their 3 yr old instead of holding their hand. Ridiculous.

I have no issue with kids at shows after i saw the way grown adults act at Ed solo shows in the states. I'll only be distracted if im fearing for their safety. All comes back to common sense. Almost like watching grown folks argue for ten pages.

PJ_Soul · July 2017

Am I the only person who thinks weed smells really good? I don't smoke it in public, but I actually really like to get a wiff of it wherever I happne to be. To me, it's as good as smelling freshly baked cookies or something, lol.

JH6056 · July 2017

PJ_Soul said:

JH6056 said:

brianlux said:

JH6056 said:
Brian I've checked with 4 pediatricians officially (and several unofficially), as well as many band soundmen and musicians with young kids. They ALL say that the earmuff/headphone ear protectors you can buy for kids do a perfectly good job at protecting hearing at US rock concerts and my kid for one, who's been at shows since she was an infant, has perfect hearing according to her pediatricians (10 yrs old now). What is your source if you're saying that those ear protectors do not do a sufficient job of protecting young ears at US rock concerts and festivals?

American Tinnitus Association (ATA). Yes, due to my hearing damage, I'm rather sensitive to this issue.

I'm not telling anyone here what to do. Just giving some food for thought.

William Shatner once said he was not sure he would survive having tinnitus (he got help and did and later went on to be a board member of ATA).

One doctor alone reported knowing 8 people who committed suicide due to tinnitus. I was almost one of them.

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/Depression/tinnitus-suicide/story?id=15003057

I'm sorry you have that, and yes I've heard how bad it can be and the connection to suicide. That's gotta suck majorly, sorry you deal with it.

That said, your link doesn't address any insufficiency in today's ear protectors or any evidence that even wearing those religiously can lead to tinnitus. Where is that link, since you said the protection for kids is not enough?

I mentioned before that I see little kids with them on all the time, and half the time I specifically see those earmuff headphone come away from their ears. I don't doubt the technical merits of the headphones. I doubt the ability of the parents to make sure they actually fit properly to ensure an airtight fit and to keep their kids from shifting them around on their head. There is no way the hearing of many kids I've seen at shows was adequately protected - it's easy to tell if it's not when you can see air between the headphones and the kid's ear! ... While I'm not a fan of kids at concerts in general for selfish reasons, my first concern really is their safety and welfare (part of why I am not a fan of them being there - I think i resent feeling scared for someone else's kid, lol), and I've been worried about the fact that I can see those things moving around and seeing space between them and the kid's skin. Happens so often, I feel like it's the norm.

Just realized you aren't Brian LOL!
I can't speak to the habits of people I don't see (like the ones you mention), but I've really asked around about this a lot. I've even got friends by now who are musicians who have adult kids who grew up around live music and where they used ear protection, I've yet to meet anyone with any kind of hearing problems at all.

Still hoping Brian will chime in again, because if there is actual science or reliable sources that using hearing protection well is still not enough, I definitely want to know that. I'm not wedded to this so much that I'd ignore real evidence it's bad for my kid.

I hear what you're saying about being worried because you see some people using it improperly, but again, the opinions of professionals (pediatricians) and the experiences of career musicians who work around live music and have kids around live music for decades is much more accurate and reliable viewpoint than your impression that kids don't have it on properly and must be getting damaged hearing.

brianlux · July 2017

JH6056 said:

JH6056 said:

brianlux said:

JH6056 said:

brianlux said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

brianlux said:

When I was a little kid my parents like to do adult things with their adult friends and us kids stayed home with the baby sitter. I had no problem with that and I had no interest in doing adult things with my adult parents. So why is the current parenting generation so hung up about wanting their children to participate in adult activities? Are they themselves having a hard time being adults? Is it because they want to show off their kids to everyone around them? Do they want to turn their children into miniature adults? Honestly, I don't get it. (And yes, though not a biological father, I have had parenting experience.)

live music is an adult thing now? I didn't take my daughter to a burlesque show. I took her to a rock show.

my wife and I do plenty of adult things on our own; kids with my parents. I don't see your point at all, brian. I see narcissistic tendencies with the selfie generation and stuff like that, but I don't see any trend of parents being hung up about children participating in adult activities. examples?

when my wife was a bartender in scotland, she told me stories about how families do everything together. they go to the pub, children in tow, to a drinking establishment on fridays after work. the first time I heard that, I couldn't believe it. I thought "what horrible people these scots are!". then I realized people in north america are just so fucking uptight about everything.

I'm not at the point, and doubtful I ever will be, of taking my kids to the pub, but to a live music event she wanted to go to? if my daughter shares my passion and begs me to go, then I'm cultivating that.

It depends on the show and the venue. My folks took me to see the new Christie Minstrels at an out-door family event. No problem. But if they had taken me at the age where my senses were still developing to a venue to see a band with ear damaging levels of sound (keep in mind is its not possible to attenuate more than 40 dBs of volume) and where a large percentage of the crowd is drunk and/or stoned and/or etc., is that I good idea?

I'm not telling anyone what they should do, but as you well know (lol) I'm not afraid to express my opinion wither. I think it's a bad idea.

Brian I've checked with 4 pediatricians officially (and several unofficially), as well as many band soundmen and musicians with young kids. They ALL say that the earmuff/headphone ear protectors you can buy for kids do a perfectly good job at protecting hearing at US rock concerts and my kid for one, who's been at shows since she was an infant, has perfect hearing according to her pediatricians (10 yrs old now). What is your source if you're saying that those ear protectors do not do a sufficient job of protecting young ears at US rock concerts and festivals?

American Tinnitus Association (ATA). Yes, due to my hearing damage, I'm rather sensitive to this issue.

I'm not telling anyone here what to do. Just giving some food for thought.

William Shatner once said he was not sure he would survive having tinnitus (he got help and did and later went on to be a board member of ATA).

One doctor alone reported knowing 8 people who committed suicide due to tinnitus. I was almost one of them.

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/Depression/tinnitus-suicide/story?id=15003057

I'm sorry you have that, and yes I've heard how bad it can be and the connection to suicide. That's gotta suck majorly, sorry you deal with it.

That said, your link doesn't address any insufficiency in today's ear protectors or any evidence that even wearing those religiously can lead to tinnitus. Where is that link, since you said the protection for kids is not enough?

Brian I just got to read all of the articles you linked to (skimmed before, got to read now). No one in any of those got tinnitus from going to shows and wearing ear protection regularly. Everyone was either no protection, crazy loud noises (like in military war settings), head injuries, or it didn't say how they got it.

From your comment above it sounded like you were saying even regular use of ear protection at shows doesn't protect you from tinnitus, which is counter to what pediatricians and sound people in the music business have told me. Please share your source - it's pretty important in this conversation if you're saying there's evidence ear protection is NOT enough at regular US rock shows.

"At and above 2000 Hz, all dual-protection combinations provide attenuation essentially equal to the limitations imposed by the bone-conduction pathways, approximately 40 to 50 dB, depending upon frequency." http://www.audiologyonline.com/articles/extra-protection-wearing-earmuffs-and-1218

"In general, sounds above 85 are harmful, depending on how long and how often you are exposed to them and whether you wear hearing protection, such as earplugs or earmuffs."

http://www.webmd.com/brain/tc/harmful-noise-levels-topic-overview

Loud rock concerts are 120 dBs (also keep in mind the length of exposure which can be a couple of hours or more. If you do the math you'll see that for an entire length of a rock concert you are pushing the limits for a child hearing. You be the judge.

Sorry for the small print. I don't know how to fix it. Anyone know?

JH6056 · July 2017

I'm glad we're having this conversation - it made me look into what's written lately about this issue. After talking to so many docs and music biz people and being reassured that as long as we use ear protection consistently, we're good, I haven't really kept up with the latest that's been written.

But reading about 10 articles in the last hour, I'm more confident than ever that as long as we're relentless about our kid wearing ear protection (and obviously not going to gigs all the time - she has at most ever gone to 4/year), she'll be fine. ALL of these articles about hearing damage feature people who did NOT use ear protection (or didn't use it consistently), and they also talk about damage occurring when ear protection is not used, not damage occurring DESPITE using ear protection.

Also want to note on the chart below that rock concerts are the same noise level as SPORTS EVENTS and loud symphonies!

"Sports crowd, rock concert, loud symphony:

120-129 db"

I have NEVER seen kids with ear protection at sports events or symphonies (although I have only been to about 5 symphonies ever), and once again I don't hear people on this board railing against parents who bring their kids to sports events the same way they do concerts, even though apparently the noise levels are the SAME, while in my experience the chances of loud consistent profanity and violence are way higher at sports events than rock shows. But no one's criticizing parental judgement taking young kids to sports events... What's up with that double standard?

Brian, from the same article you linked to:

Noise levels
Noise	Average decibels (dB)
Leaves rustling, soft music, whisper	30
Average home noise	40
Normal conversation, background music	60
Office noise, inside car at 60 mph	70
Vacuum cleaner, average radio	75
Heavy traffic, window air conditioner, noisy restaurant, power lawn mower	80-89 (sounds above 85 dB are harmful)
Subway, shouted conversation	90-95
Boom box, ATV, motorcycle	96-100
School dance	101-105
Chainsaw, leaf blower, snowmobile	106-115
Sports crowd, rock concert, loud symphony	120-129
Stock car races	130
Gun shot, siren at 100 feet	140

Preventing damage to your hearing

Most cases of noise-induced hearing loss are caused by repeated exposure to moderate levels of noise over many years, not by a few cases of very loud noise. Wearing hearing protectors can help prevent damage from both moderate and loud noise.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

And excerpts from another article (link http://www.webmd.com/brain/tc/harmful-noise-levels-topic-overview ):

How Loud Is Too Loud? Doctors and Club Owners on Hearing Loss and Volume

THE PITCH

by Molly Beauchemin
Contributor
JANUARY 14 2014

Last year, Grimes cancelled tour dates because of her struggle with tinnitus.

A few months ago while photographing a concert in Montreal, I saw something I'd never seen at a show before: audience members covering their ears.

That image came back to me a little while later, when Grimes revealed her struggle with tinnitus and tweeted that the ringing in her ears was so loud she couldn’t sleep.

Tinnitus is a neurological problem that originates in the brain, involving miscommunication between noise-damaged sensory cells; the result is a continuous ringing sound in the ears. Tinnitus is permanent. 50 million Americans suffer from tinnitus (2 million become so debilitated by unrelenting ringing that they are incapable of carrying out normal daily activities), and musicians are at significantly higher risk than the general population. The only other group who suffer so ubiquitous from hearing damage are GIs exposed to wartime explosions.

Which leads me to wonder: If musicians and listeners are both suffering as a result of exposure to loud music, then why don’t venues just turn the volume down?

Nick Cageao, head of audio at Saint Vitus bar in Brooklyn, says the typical show at his venue ranges from around 98db (louder than a power drill) to 115db (20 db louder than the level at which sustained exposure may result in hearing loss). Tests of this sound level on rats have ruptured blood vessel walls.

Cageao says he tries to wear earplugs whenever possible—he’s actually endorsed by a company called Etymotic, who make a music pro series of hi-def earplugs. Like most of us, though, he often forgets to put them in. "I have some pretty harsh hearing damage around 4/5 khz and a persistent ring," he admits.

At her clinic at the New York Hearing Center, Kathy Feng has seen many patients with temporary hearing damage from rock concerts—but, reassuringly, she tells me that their damage is rarely full-blown tinnitus. "The degree of hearing damage [from loud music] has a lot to do with how long the person was exposed to dangerous levels of noise," says a representative from her team, who (much to the support of my mounting hypochondria) points out that riding the subway is also bad for your ears. (Cell phone usage also increases your risk of tinnitus.)

Prolonged exposure increases the risk of permanent damage. According to Phonak audiologist Daniela-Simone Feit, our ears need about 10 hours of rest in between bouts of extreme noise.

There's a persistent notion that earplugs "lessen" the concert experience by cutting out important frequencies—though many professionals contend that's not necessarily true.

When properly inserted, foam earplugs block out dangerous frequencies. Custom earplugs, like those Cageao mentions, are made by taking an impression in the ear and then grafting a silicon earpiece to fit the mold.

There are legal limits on how loud a club can get, but the volume is usually set at a threshold that’s already considered "dangerous." A small room traps sound more effectively than a large one, and a full room also responds differently than an empty one (you’re better off in a crowd). Concrete reverberates sound (it’s a good idea to wear earplugs at a basement show) and the closer you are to the stage, the louder it will be.

It seems like the largest resistance to earplugs is cultural. Our social climate relegates earplugs to the same category as sunscreen and contraceptives—proactive measures that are easily mocked only because we secretly know how important they are. "I don't think the answer is changing the way music is performed," Lefcort says. "It's on the listeners to protect themselves."

brianlux · July 2017

Which all leads to a question I often ask, why so loud?

Two very memorable experiences come to mind: one was a blues band playing on the Streets of San Francisco in the mid 80's that consisted of two guitarist playing through little battery powered amps and one guy playing an odd assortment of percussion. They cooked and the sound was big but not ear splitting. (I've told this story here before, the lead guitarist/singer has only one hand with only a thumb and forefinger to hold a pick and he straps a slide bar onto his left wrist. The guys is amazing.)

Another was a punk band that had a bass and guitar with little practice amps and drummer with a minimal kit and they rocked hard!

And yeah, OK, I'm a Dinosaur Jr fan but J knows how to use volume and varying dynamics to good effect. And no, I would not take a kid to see Dinosaur until he or she were at least 12 years old.

So now that I've said more than my 2 cents worth I'll bow out here and just hope ya'll protect yours and especially your kids hearing because really, smoke detector level of screeching in both ears 24/7 is not something everyone digs.

JH6056 · July 2017

brianlux said:

Which all leads to a question I often ask, why so loud?

Two very memorable experiences come to mind: one was a blues band playing on the Streets of San Francisco in the mid 80's that consisted of two guitarist playing through little battery powered amps and one guy playing an odd assortment of percussion. They cooked and the sound was big but not ear splitting. (I've told this story here before, the lead guitarist/singer has only one hand with only a thumb and forefinger to hold a pick and he straps a slide bar onto his left wrist. The guys is amazing.)

Another was a punk band that had a bass and guitar with little practice amps and drummer with a minimal kit and they rocked hard!

And yeah, OK, I'm a Dinosaur Jr fan but J knows how to use volume and varying dynamics to good effect. And no, I would not take a kid to see Dinosaur until he or she were at least 12 years old.

So now that I've said more than my 2 cents worth I'll bow out here and just hope ya'll protect yours and especially your kids hearing because really, smoke detector level of screeching in both ears 24/7 is not something everyone digs.

No joke: my first ever official band portable ear plug case merch was from... a Dinosaur Jr show in '92 or so! Green case, purple Dinosaur Jr logo... and yes, that show and Bad Brains are 2 of the loudest concerts I've EVER been to.

Brian the author of the article I linked to asks the question you asked: "Why so loud?" especially when it doesn't have to be. You might be interested in his answer.

In the meantime, I just leave this conversation glad that in fact, properly-used ear protection is INDEED doing it's job. I thought so, but this whole convo made me question that. Actually learned quite a bit more about both causes of hearing damage and ways to avoid it or improve it when it's not permanent. Time to get my kid a new pair of ear protectors, as her current ones are getting a little tight. And she will be going to more shows so... plan ahead! ::thumbs up::

PJNB · July 2017

Uh I have used a chainsaw plenty of times and it is way louder then any rock concert I have been to. There is no way I would ever use one with out ear protection. I have never been to a rock concert and thought I needed it (I know I probably should have) and I have been to some loud shows. Also if you are worried about your child's ears (you should be) either pony up and buy a decent earmuff that protects more then the entry level ones or double up on protection with the inserts and then the cheaper earmuffs on top of them.

JH6056 · July 2017

The chart and most of the articles say anything over 85 dbs is harmful to human ears. Chain saws on this chart are 106-115 dbs, so yeah, earplugs would be important.

Interestingly, in all the shows I've been to I always have earplugs with me (like, religiously), but I only use them about 2/5 shows. And I've been lucky to not have any hearing problems. Now I know from a few of these articles that while I probably should always wear protection, as long as I rest my ears with below dangerous levels noise for half a day or longer between shows, I'm probably ok.

Still, you never know when a show will be crazy loud or there will be some nasty feedback, and it's best to have them just in case. Most venues now either sell them or have them at the 1st Aid area (at bigger shows).

How old is too young?

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Preventing damage to your hearing

How Loud Is Too Loud? Doctors and Club Owners on Hearing Loss and Volume

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