Canadian Politics Redux

lukin2006 · October 2016

PJfanwillneverleave1 said:
Canadian politics seem so boring and trivial now until the US election is over.
It doesn't compare to the circus that the Americans provide us.

As long as the circus stays south of the border I'm fine with it, lol...it might be the ultimate reality show...

HughFreakingDillon · October 2016

dignin said:
What garbage.

"Under Mr. Harper, there were so many people dissatisfied with the government and its approach that they were saying, 'We need an electoral reform so that we can no longer have a government we don't like,'" Trudeau explained.

"However, under the current system, they now have a government they are more satisfied with. And the motivation to want to change the electoral system is less urgent."

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/wherry-trudeau-electoral-reform-1.3811862

oh boy.

lukin2006 · October 2016

Canada-EU trade talks with Wallonia collapse as Freeland heads home

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/canada-eu-ceta-brussels-friday-1.3815332

DarthMaeglin · October 2016

lukin2006 said:
Trudeau Hints At Flip In Electoral Reform Pledge

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2016/10/19/trudeau-electoral-reform_n_12562314.html

I finally realized last night that we need to stop talking electoral reform here in Canada, and finally begin discussing the thing that politicians fear most but best serves the electorate: recall legislation, at ALL levels of government.

lukin2006 · October 2016

DarthMaeglin said:

lukin2006 said:
Trudeau Hints At Flip In Electoral Reform Pledge

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2016/10/19/trudeau-electoral-reform_n_12562314.html
I finally realized last night that we need to stop talking electoral reform here in Canada, and finally begin discussing the thing that politicians fear most but best serves the electorate: recall legislation, at ALL levels of government.

I totally agree...

Several things about politics amazes me

1. We allow those fuckin politicians to decide their own salaries and vote themselves
2. The generous pensions/severance/gratuities
3. Not being abl e to turf them from office before their term is up
4. Lack of referendums

I got absolutely no use for these fucking leaches that some call politicians.

All we have to do is look at all the spending scandals that take place, politicians are selfish dicks of the highest order...

PJ_Soul · October 2016

Referendums are incredibly expensive. I don't support having a bunch of referendums so the public can vote on every issue at all. It is so divisive and wasteful. Citizens need to vote for the people they trust to make those decisions.
I totally agree about how their salaries are determined though. It's ludicrous that they can just give themselves raises they way they do. However, as far as salaries and benefits go for higher level politicians, I do support that they be competitive with the private sector and what these same people could earn if they weren't politicians, and I think a lot of people don't consider this. Otherwise our government would just be filled with the dregs of the public sector. We want to attract really smart, successful, intelligent people to politics, which means we need to compete with private companies for the best people. Of course that's difficult when private companies are using all of their profits to pay massive salaries and bonuses to their top level. I know we're all focused on the negative and the headline grabbing shit that we're eternally feeling scandalized by, but actually a lot of politicians do get around to doing some worthwhile work using specialized knowledge and skills, believe it or not, lol.

DarthMaeglin · October 2016

I completely agree with both of you that the way their salaries and benefits are self-determined is an absurd situation, though PJ Soul nails it that they need to keep such things at a level that will attract capable candidates to run for office.

Personally I'm a fan of more "direct" democracy (through referendums and the like), and while the costs may be prohibitive right now, I'll suggest technology may (soon?) make such things more feasible (as long as proper safeguards against fraud can be enacted as well). Whether or not the populace are reasonable enough be given such a responsibility remains a point of debate as well (I'm not so sure given the current hyper-partisan political climate).

PJ_Soul · October 2016

I don't necessarily oppose referendums in theory if a cheap way to do it does come along, but not if they involve civil rights, personal freedoms, or humanitarian issues. Those should never ever ever be put to a vote. Also, they probably shouldn't used for anything reconnected to raising taxes either, just because then the government would never be able to afford anything, lol.
No, I think we just need a government we can trust to try and make things best for the most amount of people. In small communities a referendum system might work, but large-scale and this day and age, I think it would be asking for disaster, and society would simply be a constant big angry argument. Fucking everything under the sun would be a controversy.

lukin2006 · October 2016

DarthMaeglin said:
I completely agree with both of you that the way their salaries and benefits are self-determined is an absurd situation, though PJ Soul nails it that they need to keep such things at a level that will attract capable candidates to run for office.

Personally I'm a fan of more "direct" democracy (through referendums and the like), and while the costs may be prohibitive right now, I'll suggest technology may (soon?) make such things more feasible (as long as proper safeguards against fraud can be enacted as well). Whether or not the populace are reasonable enough be given such a responsibility remains a point of debate as well (I'm not so sure given the current hyper-partisan political climate).

We are more than capable, it's the elitists who don't think we are. As far as salaries go, there high now, when are we going to attract candidates that are qualified...

PJ_Soul · October 2016

lukin2006 said:

DarthMaeglin said:
I completely agree with both of you that the way their salaries and benefits are self-determined is an absurd situation, though PJ Soul nails it that they need to keep such things at a level that will attract capable candidates to run for office.

Personally I'm a fan of more "direct" democracy (through referendums and the like), and while the costs may be prohibitive right now, I'll suggest technology may (soon?) make such things more feasible (as long as proper safeguards against fraud can be enacted as well). Whether or not the populace are reasonable enough be given such a responsibility remains a point of debate as well (I'm not so sure given the current hyper-partisan political climate).
We are more than capable, it's the elitists who don't think we are. As far as salaries go, there high now, when are we going to attract candidates that are qualified...

There are plenty of qualified people in government dude. Obviously.

PJfanwillneverleave1 · October 2016

I'm a huge supporter of referendums on issues that are deemed necessary for resolve by the public. (Separation of Quebec for instance)
It shows leadership when the gov't can give the decision back to the people once in awhile and admit they need some help from the public to solve a problem.
As far as cost? Doesn't bother me.
It's the cost of business to run a country. It takes an incredible amount of resources to ensure every citizen in the country you lead is aware of and given the opportunity to vote in a referendum.

DarthMaeglin · October 2016

lukin2006 said:

DarthMaeglin said:
I completely agree with both of you that the way their salaries and benefits are self-determined is an absurd situation, though PJ Soul nails it that they need to keep such things at a level that will attract capable candidates to run for office.

Personally I'm a fan of more "direct" democracy (through referendums and the like), and while the costs may be prohibitive right now, I'll suggest technology may (soon?) make such things more feasible (as long as proper safeguards against fraud can be enacted as well). Whether or not the populace are reasonable enough be given such a responsibility remains a point of debate as well (I'm not so sure given the current hyper-partisan political climate).
We are more than capable, it's the elitists who don't think we are. As far as salaries go, there high now, when are we going to attract candidates that are qualified...

Well, I do my best to be non-elitist, but I also firmly believe that the mob (the electorate) are inherently selfish and stupid (as a whole, not as individuals), and think we've still got some ways to go until the masses can really be trusted with such responsibilities (especially in the areas PJ Soul highlighted above). Part of why Ontario's suffered 13+ years under the Liberals is Dalton was the only one promising everyone an extra day off work (the laughable Family Day).

It would also be nice if better candidates were brought in to run for office, though I suspect that may have as much to do with the way the parties are set up (and the way they function within the system).

PJ_Soul · October 2016

PJfanwillneverleave1 said:
I'm a huge supporter of referendums on issues that are deemed necessary for resolve by the public. (Separation of Quebec for instance)
It shows leadership when the gov't can give the decision back to the people once in awhile and admit they need some help from the public to solve a problem.
As far as cost? Doesn't bother me.
It's the cost of business to run a country. It takes an incredible amount of resources to ensure every citizen in the country you lead is aware of and given the opportunity to vote in a referendum.

I think a referendum can be appropriate, and yes, the separation referendum was one of those. But to have constant referendums for all kinds of things on a regular basis? No. It's just not practical, nor do I think it wouod enhance anyone's life.

PJfanwillneverleave1 · October 2016

^^^
No not constant referendums just when the public feels like things aren't moving along with certain issues.

lukin2006 · October 2016

DarthMaeglin said:

lukin2006 said:

DarthMaeglin said:
I completely agree with both of you that the way their salaries and benefits are self-determined is an absurd situation, though PJ Soul nails it that they need to keep such things at a level that will attract capable candidates to run for office.

Personally I'm a fan of more "direct" democracy (through referendums and the like), and while the costs may be prohibitive right now, I'll suggest technology may (soon?) make such things more feasible (as long as proper safeguards against fraud can be enacted as well). Whether or not the populace are reasonable enough be given such a responsibility remains a point of debate as well (I'm not so sure given the current hyper-partisan political climate).
We are more than capable, it's the elitists who don't think we are. As far as salaries go, there high now, when are we going to attract candidates that are qualified...
Well, I do my best to be non-elitist, but I also firmly believe that the mob (the electorate) are inherently selfish and stupid (as a whole, not as individuals), and think we've still got some ways to go until the masses can really be trusted with such responsibilities (especially in the areas PJ Soul highlighted above). Part of why Ontario's suffered 13+ years under the Liberals is Dalton was the only one promising everyone an extra day off work (the laughable Family Day).

It would also be nice if better candidates were brought in to run for office, though I suspect that may have as much to do with the way the parties are set up (and the way they function within the system).

When I say elitist I'm referring more to the politicians, no one here comes across as elitist...

But when I read that politicians like May of the GP doesn't think we should have a referendum on changing the electoral system, that's elitist. What's makes her more qualified than any of us, and now it looks like Trudeau is waffling on that.

Of boy, I was hoping never to hear Dalton McGuintys name ever again...lol, now a poll indicates that many think Wynne will step down, she's polling at 14% in personal popularity...fun times in ontario

DarthMaeglin · October 2016

lukin2006 said:

DarthMaeglin said:

lukin2006 said:

DarthMaeglin said:
I completely agree with both of you that the way their salaries and benefits are self-determined is an absurd situation, though PJ Soul nails it that they need to keep such things at a level that will attract capable candidates to run for office.

Personally I'm a fan of more "direct" democracy (through referendums and the like), and while the costs may be prohibitive right now, I'll suggest technology may (soon?) make such things more feasible (as long as proper safeguards against fraud can be enacted as well). Whether or not the populace are reasonable enough be given such a responsibility remains a point of debate as well (I'm not so sure given the current hyper-partisan political climate).
We are more than capable, it's the elitists who don't think we are. As far as salaries go, there high now, when are we going to attract candidates that are qualified...
Well, I do my best to be non-elitist, but I also firmly believe that the mob (the electorate) are inherently selfish and stupid (as a whole, not as individuals), and think we've still got some ways to go until the masses can really be trusted with such responsibilities (especially in the areas PJ Soul highlighted above). Part of why Ontario's suffered 13+ years under the Liberals is Dalton was the only one promising everyone an extra day off work (the laughable Family Day).

It would also be nice if better candidates were brought in to run for office, though I suspect that may have as much to do with the way the parties are set up (and the way they function within the system).
When I say elitist I'm referring more to the politicians, no one here comes across as elitist...

But when I read that politicians like May of the GP doesn't think we should have a referendum on changing the electoral system, that's elitist. What's makes her more qualified than any of us, and now it looks like Trudeau is waffling on that.

Of boy, I was hoping never to hear Dalton McGuintys name ever again...lol, now a poll indicates that many think Wynne will step down, she's polling at 14% in personal popularity...fun times in ontario

Sorry, didn't mean to imply you were saying anyone here's an elitist, didn't take it that way myself. Just wanted to clarify my own views before saying something that could easily be read that way (the mob being selfish and stupid), lol. Unfortunately for our collective memories, I had to raise the spectre of Dalton as a prime example, I'll try not to name he-who-shall-not-be-named again, lol.

I completely agree that IF electoral reform moves forward it pretty much needs to be put to a referendum, but Trudeau's pretty much said since taking office that he doesn't want to hold one.

As I said above, I'd much rather they look into recall legislation, but no self-serving politician (read: most, in my opinion) want to consider such a thing, though I firmly believe safeguards could be put in place to prevent abuses of such a process. I suspect it might even produce a more civil atmosphere in politics, and give people a viable recourse in situations like Rob Ford, Ontario's Liberals or the "evil Harperites". How to get actual traction on such a thing is beyond me (especially with Hockey Night on the tv and Zeppelin blasting, lol).

lukin2006 · October 2016

DarthMaeglin said:

lukin2006 said:

DarthMaeglin said:

lukin2006 said:

DarthMaeglin said:
I completely agree with both of you that the way their salaries and benefits are self-determined is an absurd situation, though PJ Soul nails it that they need to keep such things at a level that will attract capable candidates to run for office.

Personally I'm a fan of more "direct" democracy (through referendums and the like), and while the costs may be prohibitive right now, I'll suggest technology may (soon?) make such things more feasible (as long as proper safeguards against fraud can be enacted as well). Whether or not the populace are reasonable enough be given such a responsibility remains a point of debate as well (I'm not so sure given the current hyper-partisan political climate).
We are more than capable, it's the elitists who don't think we are. As far as salaries go, there high now, when are we going to attract candidates that are qualified...
Well, I do my best to be non-elitist, but I also firmly believe that the mob (the electorate) are inherently selfish and stupid (as a whole, not as individuals), and think we've still got some ways to go until the masses can really be trusted with such responsibilities (especially in the areas PJ Soul highlighted above). Part of why Ontario's suffered 13+ years under the Liberals is Dalton was the only one promising everyone an extra day off work (the laughable Family Day).

It would also be nice if better candidates were brought in to run for office, though I suspect that may have as much to do with the way the parties are set up (and the way they function within the system).
When I say elitist I'm referring more to the politicians, no one here comes across as elitist...

But when I read that politicians like May of the GP doesn't think we should have a referendum on changing the electoral system, that's elitist. What's makes her more qualified than any of us, and now it looks like Trudeau is waffling on that.

Of boy, I was hoping never to hear Dalton McGuintys name ever again...lol, now a poll indicates that many think Wynne will step down, she's polling at 14% in personal popularity...fun times in ontario
Sorry, didn't mean to imply you were saying anyone here's an elitist, didn't take it that way myself. Just wanted to clarify my own views before saying something that could easily be read that way (the mob being selfish and stupid), lol. Unfortunately for our collective memories, I had to raise the spectre of Dalton as a prime example, I'll try not to name he-who-shall-not-be-named again, lol.

I completely agree that IF electoral reform moves forward it pretty much needs to be put to a referendum, but Trudeau's pretty much said since taking office that he doesn't want to hold one.

As I said above, I'd much rather they look into recall legislation, but no self-serving politician (read: most, in my opinion) want to consider such a thing, though I firmly believe safeguards could be put in place to prevent abuses of such a process. I suspect it might even produce a more civil atmosphere in politics, and give people a viable recourse in situations like Rob Ford, Ontario's Liberals or the "evil Harperites". How to get actual traction on such a thing is beyond me (especially with Hockey Night on the tv and Zeppelin blasting, lol).

I agree about Zeppelin and hockey night, however tonight was about college football and penn state shocking Ohio state, as a wolverine fan that was great.

Yes I would love recall legislation, your right politicians would never put that in place. Referendums are used quite regularly in Switzerland and work really well and I've heard they have one of the best democracies on earth. Personally I believe all we do is elect our dictators, the worst part of our political system is the so called majority, when's the last time a government in Canada has achieved a true majority...usually around 40% of the vote gives a party a so called majority, then you factor in the amount of eligible voters who vote it's usually under 25% of eligible voters who put the government in place. I would like proportional representation, doubt we'll see it, because PM sunny ways doesn't want to lose the power he holds...why I figure the flip flop is starting. I find it funny that his policies are not much dlefferent than Harper, or better yet he's essentially doing as Harper would, yet his polling numbers are good ... so my guess is he has nice hair and that got him elected...hahahaha.

Anyways I really like the recall legislation idea, could be put to a referendum...hahaha. I support referendums, always will...

lukin2006 · October 2016

I should state that I even agreed with McGuinty when he called the referendum on electoral reform in Ontario, it failed and status quo remained, but I'm fine with it because the people said no...

Thirty Bills Unpaid · October 2016

Just in case anyone is interested... teen killer, Kelly Ellard, is pregnant while serving a life sentence. The situation is calling for a policy review regarding inmates and visitations.

The 'life sentence', as demonstrated in this case, isn't actually a sentence for life in Canada (that's just tough talk). Many think she will be released in 2017 when she comes up for parole again. Reena Virk's family isn't going to fight the parole applications anymore.

The father? Another convict currently incarcerated.

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/canada/bc-killer-kelly-ellards-prison-pregnancy-spurs-calls-for-policy-review/ar-AAjm4ok?li=AAggFp5&ocid=edgsp

lukin2006 · October 2016

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:
Just in case anyone is interested... teen killer, Kelly Ellard, is pregnant while serving a life sentence. The situation is calling for a policy review regarding inmates and visitations.

The 'life sentence', as demonstrated in this case, isn't actually a sentence for life in Canada (that's just tough talk). Many think she will be released in 2017 when she comes up for parole again. Reena Virk's family isn't going to fight the parole applications anymore.

The father? Another convict currently incarcerated.

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/canada/bc-killer-kelly-ellards-prison-pregnancy-spurs-calls-for-policy-review/ar-AAjm4ok?li=AAggFp5&ocid=edgsp

Yeah, I read that...shakes head

Canadian Politics Redux

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