Wells Fargo Scandal...
pjalive21
St. Louis, MO Posts: 2,818
http://money.cnn.com/2016/09/08/investing/wells-fargo-created-phony-accounts-bank-fees/index.html
Everyone hates paying bank fees. But imagine paying fees on a ghost account you didn't even sign up for.
That's exactly what happened to Wells Fargo customers nationwide.
On Thursday, federal regulators said Wells Fargo employees secretly created millions of unauthorized bank and credit card accounts -- without their customers knowing it -- since 2011.
The phony accounts earned the bank unwarranted fees and allowed Wells Fargo employees to boost their sales figures and make more money.
"Wells Fargo employees secretly opened unauthorized accounts to hit sales targets and receive bonuses," Richard Cordray, director of the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau, said in a statement.
Wells Fargo confirmed to CNNMoney that it had fired 5,300 employees related to the shady behavior over the last few years. Employees went to far as to create phony PIN numbers and fake email addresses to enroll customers in online banking services, the CFPB said.
The scope of the scandal is shocking. An analysis conducted by a consulting firm hired by Wells Fargo concluded that bank employees opened up over 1.5 million deposit accounts that may not have been authorized, according to the CFPB.
The way it worked was that employees moved funds from customers' existing accounts into newly-created accounts without their knowledge or consent, regulators say. The CFPB described this practice as "widespread" and led to customers being charged for insufficient funds or overdraft fees -- because the money was not in their original accounts.
Additionally, Wells Fargo employees also submitted applications for 565,443 credit card accounts without their knowledge or consent, the CFPB said the analysis found. Many customers who had unauthorized credit cards opened in their names were hit by annual fees, interest charges and other fees.
The CFPB said Wells Fargo will pay "full restitutions to all victims."
Wells Fargo is being slapped with the largest penalty since the CFPB was founded in 2011. The bank agreed to pay $185 million in fines, along with $5 million to refund customers.
"We regret and take responsibility for any instances where customers may have received a product that they did not request," Wells Fargo said in a statement.
Wells Fargo confirmed to CNNMoney that the firings represent about 1% of its workforce and took place over several years.
"At Wells Fargo, when we make mistakes, we are open about it, we take responsibility, and we take action," the bank said in a memo to employees on Thursday.
It's not clear when Wells Fargo hired a consulting firm to investigate the allegations, nor what triggered the response. Wells Fargo did not respond to a request for comment on this.
The CFPB declined to comment on when the investigation began and what sparked it, citing agency policy. "We don't comment on how we uncover these matters," a spokesman said.
As part of the settlement, Wells Fargo needs to make changes to its sales practices and internal oversight.
"Consumers must be able to trust their banks. They should never be taken advantage of," said Mike Feuer, the Los Angeles City Attorney who joined the settlement.
Feuer's office sued Wells Fargo in May 2015 over allegations of unauthorized accounts. After filing the suit, his office received more than 1,000 calls and emails from customers as well as current and former Wells Fargo employees about the allegations.
Even though the Wells Fargo scandal took place nationally, the settlement with L.A. requires the bank to alert all its California customers to review their accounts and shut down ones they don't recognize or want.
Everyone hates paying bank fees. But imagine paying fees on a ghost account you didn't even sign up for.
That's exactly what happened to Wells Fargo customers nationwide.
On Thursday, federal regulators said Wells Fargo employees secretly created millions of unauthorized bank and credit card accounts -- without their customers knowing it -- since 2011.
The phony accounts earned the bank unwarranted fees and allowed Wells Fargo employees to boost their sales figures and make more money.
"Wells Fargo employees secretly opened unauthorized accounts to hit sales targets and receive bonuses," Richard Cordray, director of the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau, said in a statement.
Wells Fargo confirmed to CNNMoney that it had fired 5,300 employees related to the shady behavior over the last few years. Employees went to far as to create phony PIN numbers and fake email addresses to enroll customers in online banking services, the CFPB said.
The scope of the scandal is shocking. An analysis conducted by a consulting firm hired by Wells Fargo concluded that bank employees opened up over 1.5 million deposit accounts that may not have been authorized, according to the CFPB.
The way it worked was that employees moved funds from customers' existing accounts into newly-created accounts without their knowledge or consent, regulators say. The CFPB described this practice as "widespread" and led to customers being charged for insufficient funds or overdraft fees -- because the money was not in their original accounts.
Additionally, Wells Fargo employees also submitted applications for 565,443 credit card accounts without their knowledge or consent, the CFPB said the analysis found. Many customers who had unauthorized credit cards opened in their names were hit by annual fees, interest charges and other fees.
The CFPB said Wells Fargo will pay "full restitutions to all victims."
Wells Fargo is being slapped with the largest penalty since the CFPB was founded in 2011. The bank agreed to pay $185 million in fines, along with $5 million to refund customers.
"We regret and take responsibility for any instances where customers may have received a product that they did not request," Wells Fargo said in a statement.
Wells Fargo confirmed to CNNMoney that the firings represent about 1% of its workforce and took place over several years.
"At Wells Fargo, when we make mistakes, we are open about it, we take responsibility, and we take action," the bank said in a memo to employees on Thursday.
It's not clear when Wells Fargo hired a consulting firm to investigate the allegations, nor what triggered the response. Wells Fargo did not respond to a request for comment on this.
The CFPB declined to comment on when the investigation began and what sparked it, citing agency policy. "We don't comment on how we uncover these matters," a spokesman said.
As part of the settlement, Wells Fargo needs to make changes to its sales practices and internal oversight.
"Consumers must be able to trust their banks. They should never be taken advantage of," said Mike Feuer, the Los Angeles City Attorney who joined the settlement.
Feuer's office sued Wells Fargo in May 2015 over allegations of unauthorized accounts. After filing the suit, his office received more than 1,000 calls and emails from customers as well as current and former Wells Fargo employees about the allegations.
Even though the Wells Fargo scandal took place nationally, the settlement with L.A. requires the bank to alert all its California customers to review their accounts and shut down ones they don't recognize or want.
Post edited by pjalive21 on
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Comments
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Bank fees...now that's a whole other debate we could have0
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fuck them getting fired, were any ever charged and convicted?_____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '140 -
article said 5300 over the past 5 years? that's upper management direction.pjalive21 said:
completely agree....getting fired seems like a slap on the wristmickeyrat said:fuck them getting fired, were any ever charged and convicted?
_____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '140 -
Yup, it's fucking theft. Just one more horror story from Wall St. Too bad we won't be electing a leader this year who will hold Wall St.'s feet to the fire.mickeyrat said:fuck them getting fired, were any ever charged and convicted?
"I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/080 -
Wow. That is really shocking honestly. I've seen some crazy shit but it's usually relegated to to a few people. For instance the LIBOR fixing scam was terrible, but it was isolated to a few people. The Linda Almonte whistle blower scandal was relegated to a business unit. When something is this widespread, it tells me that the there is a cultural issue at this bank. And they are likely incentivizing people incorrectly. It's a travesty.0
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I used to work at WorldCom when I was 21 (im 37 now) and you are right about the incentivizing....when I left that company after a few years and they got busted for fraud for all the things they did I wasn't surprised one bit...they used to throw money at us like it was growing on treesmrussel1 said:Wow. That is really shocking honestly. I've seen some crazy shit but it's usually relegated to to a few people. For instance the LIBOR fixing scam was terrible, but it was isolated to a few people. The Linda Almonte whistle blower scandal was relegated to a business unit. When something is this widespread, it tells me that the there is a cultural issue at this bank. And they are likely incentivizing people incorrectly. It's a travesty.
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A lot of you St Louis people got burned up there at WorldBomb. My brother was there when it happened. He landed at Verizon Business where he is still today. He told me his boss, who was a VP, had every cent of his 401k invested in MCI. His value when from several million to nothing in a matter of days. And then they fired him. Apparently he was a doucher, but no one really deserves that, especially since they were in IT and not really part of the business.pjalive21 said:
I used to work at WorldCom when I was 21 (im 37 now) and you are right about the incentivizing....when I left that company after a few years and they got busted for fraud for all the things they did I wasn't surprised one bit...they used to throw money at us like it was growing on treesmrussel1 said:Wow. That is really shocking honestly. I've seen some crazy shit but it's usually relegated to to a few people. For instance the LIBOR fixing scam was terrible, but it was isolated to a few people. The Linda Almonte whistle blower scandal was relegated to a business unit. When something is this widespread, it tells me that the there is a cultural issue at this bank. And they are likely incentivizing people incorrectly. It's a travesty.
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this is why the foundation of the economy needs to be blown up ... we can talk about all the "watchdogs" there are ... but in the end ... the object of the game is what causes this ... it's the cause of all imbalances and fraud ... this won't be the last scandal ... this is not an isolated case ...0
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What does 'blown up' mean? What type of economy are you recommending, if not a market economy?polaris_x said:this is why the foundation of the economy needs to be blown up ... we can talk about all the "watchdogs" there are ... but in the end ... the object of the game is what causes this ... it's the cause of all imbalances and fraud ... this won't be the last scandal ... this is not an isolated case ...
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it's what we talked about before in other threads ... stockmarkets, shareholders, growth, etc ...mrussel1 said:
What does 'blown up' mean? What type of economy are you recommending, if not a market economy?polaris_x said:this is why the foundation of the economy needs to be blown up ... we can talk about all the "watchdogs" there are ... but in the end ... the object of the game is what causes this ... it's the cause of all imbalances and fraud ... this won't be the last scandal ... this is not an isolated case ...
the fundamentals of our economy are based on mythological objectives that do not serve societal needs ... what we discussed about the unemployment rate is a great example ...
the economy should be founded on principles of sustainability ... not just environmental but economic sustainability ... it should focus on creating a system that accounts for injustices and inequities ... not just seek profits and growth ... an economy that seeks for people to earn living wages not amass as much wealth as possible without consequence ...0 -
What it appears you are advocating is the stepping stone into communism. The problem with communism (among many) is that it is soiled by human nature. There are no examples of communism being successful in practice, only corrupt, just like capitalism can be corrupt.polaris_x said:
it's what we talked about before in other threads ... stockmarkets, shareholders, growth, etc ...mrussel1 said:
What does 'blown up' mean? What type of economy are you recommending, if not a market economy?polaris_x said:this is why the foundation of the economy needs to be blown up ... we can talk about all the "watchdogs" there are ... but in the end ... the object of the game is what causes this ... it's the cause of all imbalances and fraud ... this won't be the last scandal ... this is not an isolated case ...
the fundamentals of our economy are based on mythological objectives that do not serve societal needs ... what we discussed about the unemployment rate is a great example ...
the economy should be founded on principles of sustainability ... not just environmental but economic sustainability ... it should focus on creating a system that accounts for injustices and inequities ... not just seek profits and growth ... an economy that seeks for people to earn living wages not amass as much wealth as possible without consequence ...
For me, I believe we should strive for equality of opportunity, not equality of outcomes. If you are in the workforce with more than 10 people, I'm sure you see it everyday. There are people who work harder than other people. People who care more, put in more hours, create a better work product. Why should the reward be the same? That makes no sense to me.0 -
nothing of the sort ... there is nothing n what I wrote that begs for communism ...mrussel1 said:
What it appears you are advocating is the stepping stone into communism. The problem with communism (among many) is that it is soiled by human nature. There are no examples of communism being successful in practice, only corrupt, just like capitalism can be corrupt.polaris_x said:
it's what we talked about before in other threads ... stockmarkets, shareholders, growth, etc ...mrussel1 said:
What does 'blown up' mean? What type of economy are you recommending, if not a market economy?polaris_x said:this is why the foundation of the economy needs to be blown up ... we can talk about all the "watchdogs" there are ... but in the end ... the object of the game is what causes this ... it's the cause of all imbalances and fraud ... this won't be the last scandal ... this is not an isolated case ...
the fundamentals of our economy are based on mythological objectives that do not serve societal needs ... what we discussed about the unemployment rate is a great example ...
the economy should be founded on principles of sustainability ... not just environmental but economic sustainability ... it should focus on creating a system that accounts for injustices and inequities ... not just seek profits and growth ... an economy that seeks for people to earn living wages not amass as much wealth as possible without consequence ...
For me, I believe we should strive for equality of opportunity, not equality of outcomes. If you are in the workforce with more than 10 people, I'm sure you see it everyday. There are people who work harder than other people. People who care more, put in more hours, create a better work product. Why should the reward be the same? That makes no sense to me.
it's definitely socialist in principle but nowhere near communism ...
like barack obama said ... global warming is the biggest threat to life on this planet ... and yet the environment is an afterthought in the metrics of the economy ... the well being of people is not considered ...
the current structure is a rigged game ... it should be blatantly obvious by now ...0 -
Then I guess I don't understand how the philosophy you set forth is achievable or actionable. Are you basically saying that we encourage the wrong behaviors which lead to the wrong results so this is just a mindset that needs to change by parents, teachers, churches, etc but no gov't action? Or are you saying there is some specific government action that would be taken?polaris_x said:
nothing of the sort ... there is nothing n what I wrote that begs for communism ...mrussel1 said:
What it appears you are advocating is the stepping stone into communism. The problem with communism (among many) is that it is soiled by human nature. There are no examples of communism being successful in practice, only corrupt, just like capitalism can be corrupt.polaris_x said:
it's what we talked about before in other threads ... stockmarkets, shareholders, growth, etc ...mrussel1 said:
What does 'blown up' mean? What type of economy are you recommending, if not a market economy?polaris_x said:this is why the foundation of the economy needs to be blown up ... we can talk about all the "watchdogs" there are ... but in the end ... the object of the game is what causes this ... it's the cause of all imbalances and fraud ... this won't be the last scandal ... this is not an isolated case ...
the fundamentals of our economy are based on mythological objectives that do not serve societal needs ... what we discussed about the unemployment rate is a great example ...
the economy should be founded on principles of sustainability ... not just environmental but economic sustainability ... it should focus on creating a system that accounts for injustices and inequities ... not just seek profits and growth ... an economy that seeks for people to earn living wages not amass as much wealth as possible without consequence ...
For me, I believe we should strive for equality of opportunity, not equality of outcomes. If you are in the workforce with more than 10 people, I'm sure you see it everyday. There are people who work harder than other people. People who care more, put in more hours, create a better work product. Why should the reward be the same? That makes no sense to me.
it's definitely socialist in principle but nowhere near communism ...
like barack obama said ... global warming is the biggest threat to life on this planet ... and yet the environment is an afterthought in the metrics of the economy ... the well being of people is not considered ...
the current structure is a rigged game ... it should be blatantly obvious by now ...
I'll take you up on the 'rigged game' comment later. I don't understand this phrase in its current context and it has been used and abused in 2016.0 -
it's pretty simple ... we need to add objectives and line items to foster the society we want ... right now ... everything is predicated on metrics such as gdp, growth, unemployment rate, etc.. metrics that are not only misleading but deliver us a society of inequalities and injustices along with an unsustainable future ...mrussel1 said:
Then I guess I don't understand how the philosophy you set forth is achievable or actionable. Are you basically saying that we encourage the wrong behaviors which lead to the wrong results so this is just a mindset that needs to change by parents, teachers, churches, etc but no gov't action? Or are you saying there is some specific government action that would be taken?polaris_x said:
nothing of the sort ... there is nothing n what I wrote that begs for communism ...mrussel1 said:
What it appears you are advocating is the stepping stone into communism. The problem with communism (among many) is that it is soiled by human nature. There are no examples of communism being successful in practice, only corrupt, just like capitalism can be corrupt.polaris_x said:
it's what we talked about before in other threads ... stockmarkets, shareholders, growth, etc ...mrussel1 said:
What does 'blown up' mean? What type of economy are you recommending, if not a market economy?polaris_x said:this is why the foundation of the economy needs to be blown up ... we can talk about all the "watchdogs" there are ... but in the end ... the object of the game is what causes this ... it's the cause of all imbalances and fraud ... this won't be the last scandal ... this is not an isolated case ...
the fundamentals of our economy are based on mythological objectives that do not serve societal needs ... what we discussed about the unemployment rate is a great example ...
the economy should be founded on principles of sustainability ... not just environmental but economic sustainability ... it should focus on creating a system that accounts for injustices and inequities ... not just seek profits and growth ... an economy that seeks for people to earn living wages not amass as much wealth as possible without consequence ...
For me, I believe we should strive for equality of opportunity, not equality of outcomes. If you are in the workforce with more than 10 people, I'm sure you see it everyday. There are people who work harder than other people. People who care more, put in more hours, create a better work product. Why should the reward be the same? That makes no sense to me.
it's definitely socialist in principle but nowhere near communism ...
like barack obama said ... global warming is the biggest threat to life on this planet ... and yet the environment is an afterthought in the metrics of the economy ... the well being of people is not considered ...
the current structure is a rigged game ... it should be blatantly obvious by now ...
I'll take you up on the 'rigged game' comment later. I don't understand this phrase in its current context and it has been used and abused in 2016.
it's not about everyone getting everything for free or not rewarding hard work ... it's about promoting the outcomes that is in the interests of all ... take the nfl for example ... the objective is to win the superbowl ... only 1 team can ... and we've seen in recent history what teams will do to achieve that ... concussions, addiction to pain killers, spygate, deflategate, steroids, etc ... imagine a game where the objective is for players to have fun and stay active so that they can live a healthy lifestyle into their later years? ... the economic system now is more reflected by the NFL than it does a system that's meant to benefit society ...0 -
Interesting. And how long do you think the NFL will be in business if its objective is to have fun and stay healthy? Do you think people will pay to go to games? Advertisers will put ads on the TV? Will the networks renew their contracts? What you are advocating is essentially a televised exercising in the park which will be the end of the NFL.polaris_x said:
it's pretty simple ... we need to add objectives and line items to foster the society we want ... right now ... everything is predicated on metrics such as gdp, growth, unemployment rate, etc.. metrics that are not only misleading but deliver us a society of inequalities and injustices along with an unsustainable future ...mrussel1 said:
Then I guess I don't understand how the philosophy you set forth is achievable or actionable. Are you basically saying that we encourage the wrong behaviors which lead to the wrong results so this is just a mindset that needs to change by parents, teachers, churches, etc but no gov't action? Or are you saying there is some specific government action that would be taken?polaris_x said:
nothing of the sort ... there is nothing n what I wrote that begs for communism ...mrussel1 said:
What it appears you are advocating is the stepping stone into communism. The problem with communism (among many) is that it is soiled by human nature. There are no examples of communism being successful in practice, only corrupt, just like capitalism can be corrupt.polaris_x said:
it's what we talked about before in other threads ... stockmarkets, shareholders, growth, etc ...mrussel1 said:
What does 'blown up' mean? What type of economy are you recommending, if not a market economy?polaris_x said:this is why the foundation of the economy needs to be blown up ... we can talk about all the "watchdogs" there are ... but in the end ... the object of the game is what causes this ... it's the cause of all imbalances and fraud ... this won't be the last scandal ... this is not an isolated case ...
the fundamentals of our economy are based on mythological objectives that do not serve societal needs ... what we discussed about the unemployment rate is a great example ...
the economy should be founded on principles of sustainability ... not just environmental but economic sustainability ... it should focus on creating a system that accounts for injustices and inequities ... not just seek profits and growth ... an economy that seeks for people to earn living wages not amass as much wealth as possible without consequence ...
For me, I believe we should strive for equality of opportunity, not equality of outcomes. If you are in the workforce with more than 10 people, I'm sure you see it everyday. There are people who work harder than other people. People who care more, put in more hours, create a better work product. Why should the reward be the same? That makes no sense to me.
it's definitely socialist in principle but nowhere near communism ...
like barack obama said ... global warming is the biggest threat to life on this planet ... and yet the environment is an afterthought in the metrics of the economy ... the well being of people is not considered ...
the current structure is a rigged game ... it should be blatantly obvious by now ...
I'll take you up on the 'rigged game' comment later. I don't understand this phrase in its current context and it has been used and abused in 2016.
it's not about everyone getting everything for free or not rewarding hard work ... it's about promoting the outcomes that is in the interests of all ... take the nfl for example ... the objective is to win the superbowl ... only 1 team can ... and we've seen in recent history what teams will do to achieve that ... concussions, addiction to pain killers, spygate, deflategate, steroids, etc ... imagine a game where the objective is for players to have fun and stay active so that they can live a healthy lifestyle into their later years? ... the economic system now is more reflected by the NFL than it does a system that's meant to benefit society ...0 -
^^^^^^took the words right out of my mouthmrussel1 said:
Interesting. And how long do you think the NFL will be in business if its objective is to have fun and stay healthy? Do you think people will pay to go to games? Advertisers will put ads on the TV? Will the networks renew their contracts? What you are advocating is essentially a televised exercising in the park which will be the end of the NFL.polaris_x said:
it's pretty simple ... we need to add objectives and line items to foster the society we want ... right now ... everything is predicated on metrics such as gdp, growth, unemployment rate, etc.. metrics that are not only misleading but deliver us a society of inequalities and injustices along with an unsustainable future ...mrussel1 said:
Then I guess I don't understand how the philosophy you set forth is achievable or actionable. Are you basically saying that we encourage the wrong behaviors which lead to the wrong results so this is just a mindset that needs to change by parents, teachers, churches, etc but no gov't action? Or are you saying there is some specific government action that would be taken?polaris_x said:
nothing of the sort ... there is nothing n what I wrote that begs for communism ...mrussel1 said:
What it appears you are advocating is the stepping stone into communism. The problem with communism (among many) is that it is soiled by human nature. There are no examples of communism being successful in practice, only corrupt, just like capitalism can be corrupt.polaris_x said:
it's what we talked about before in other threads ... stockmarkets, shareholders, growth, etc ...mrussel1 said:
What does 'blown up' mean? What type of economy are you recommending, if not a market economy?polaris_x said:this is why the foundation of the economy needs to be blown up ... we can talk about all the "watchdogs" there are ... but in the end ... the object of the game is what causes this ... it's the cause of all imbalances and fraud ... this won't be the last scandal ... this is not an isolated case ...
the fundamentals of our economy are based on mythological objectives that do not serve societal needs ... what we discussed about the unemployment rate is a great example ...
the economy should be founded on principles of sustainability ... not just environmental but economic sustainability ... it should focus on creating a system that accounts for injustices and inequities ... not just seek profits and growth ... an economy that seeks for people to earn living wages not amass as much wealth as possible without consequence ...
For me, I believe we should strive for equality of opportunity, not equality of outcomes. If you are in the workforce with more than 10 people, I'm sure you see it everyday. There are people who work harder than other people. People who care more, put in more hours, create a better work product. Why should the reward be the same? That makes no sense to me.
it's definitely socialist in principle but nowhere near communism ...
like barack obama said ... global warming is the biggest threat to life on this planet ... and yet the environment is an afterthought in the metrics of the economy ... the well being of people is not considered ...
the current structure is a rigged game ... it should be blatantly obvious by now ...
I'll take you up on the 'rigged game' comment later. I don't understand this phrase in its current context and it has been used and abused in 2016.
it's not about everyone getting everything for free or not rewarding hard work ... it's about promoting the outcomes that is in the interests of all ... take the nfl for example ... the objective is to win the superbowl ... only 1 team can ... and we've seen in recent history what teams will do to achieve that ... concussions, addiction to pain killers, spygate, deflategate, steroids, etc ... imagine a game where the objective is for players to have fun and stay active so that they can live a healthy lifestyle into their later years? ... the economic system now is more reflected by the NFL than it does a system that's meant to benefit society ...
competition is necessary, not just in the example of the NFL, but in the market...its the dirty antics used in both that need to be scrubbed out its not necessarily the systems themselves that are the problems which has been seen in both our economy and those in socialism and communism
Post edited by pjalive21 on0 -
you're looking at the business side of the NFL ... my analogy focuses simply on the game ... and the objectives of the game ... when the objective is to win at all costs ... it fosters cheating ... and that is what you see on almost every play of the game ... someone is holding, someone is trying to get away with things because ultimately winning is all that matters ...mrussel1 said:
Interesting. And how long do you think the NFL will be in business if its objective is to have fun and stay healthy? Do you think people will pay to go to games? Advertisers will put ads on the TV? Will the networks renew their contracts? What you are advocating is essentially a televised exercising in the park which will be the end of the NFL.polaris_x said:
it's pretty simple ... we need to add objectives and line items to foster the society we want ... right now ... everything is predicated on metrics such as gdp, growth, unemployment rate, etc.. metrics that are not only misleading but deliver us a society of inequalities and injustices along with an unsustainable future ...mrussel1 said:
Then I guess I don't understand how the philosophy you set forth is achievable or actionable. Are you basically saying that we encourage the wrong behaviors which lead to the wrong results so this is just a mindset that needs to change by parents, teachers, churches, etc but no gov't action? Or are you saying there is some specific government action that would be taken?polaris_x said:
nothing of the sort ... there is nothing n what I wrote that begs for communism ...mrussel1 said:
What it appears you are advocating is the stepping stone into communism. The problem with communism (among many) is that it is soiled by human nature. There are no examples of communism being successful in practice, only corrupt, just like capitalism can be corrupt.polaris_x said:
it's what we talked about before in other threads ... stockmarkets, shareholders, growth, etc ...mrussel1 said:
What does 'blown up' mean? What type of economy are you recommending, if not a market economy?polaris_x said:this is why the foundation of the economy needs to be blown up ... we can talk about all the "watchdogs" there are ... but in the end ... the object of the game is what causes this ... it's the cause of all imbalances and fraud ... this won't be the last scandal ... this is not an isolated case ...
the fundamentals of our economy are based on mythological objectives that do not serve societal needs ... what we discussed about the unemployment rate is a great example ...
the economy should be founded on principles of sustainability ... not just environmental but economic sustainability ... it should focus on creating a system that accounts for injustices and inequities ... not just seek profits and growth ... an economy that seeks for people to earn living wages not amass as much wealth as possible without consequence ...
For me, I believe we should strive for equality of opportunity, not equality of outcomes. If you are in the workforce with more than 10 people, I'm sure you see it everyday. There are people who work harder than other people. People who care more, put in more hours, create a better work product. Why should the reward be the same? That makes no sense to me.
it's definitely socialist in principle but nowhere near communism ...
like barack obama said ... global warming is the biggest threat to life on this planet ... and yet the environment is an afterthought in the metrics of the economy ... the well being of people is not considered ...
the current structure is a rigged game ... it should be blatantly obvious by now ...
I'll take you up on the 'rigged game' comment later. I don't understand this phrase in its current context and it has been used and abused in 2016.
it's not about everyone getting everything for free or not rewarding hard work ... it's about promoting the outcomes that is in the interests of all ... take the nfl for example ... the objective is to win the superbowl ... only 1 team can ... and we've seen in recent history what teams will do to achieve that ... concussions, addiction to pain killers, spygate, deflategate, steroids, etc ... imagine a game where the objective is for players to have fun and stay active so that they can live a healthy lifestyle into their later years? ... the economic system now is more reflected by the NFL than it does a system that's meant to benefit society ...
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who is saying taking competition out? ... again ... this is simply about changing the objectives and outcomes ...pjalive21 said:
^^^^^^took the words right out of my mouthmrussel1 said:
Interesting. And how long do you think the NFL will be in business if its objective is to have fun and stay healthy? Do you think people will pay to go to games? Advertisers will put ads on the TV? Will the networks renew their contracts? What you are advocating is essentially a televised exercising in the park which will be the end of the NFL.polaris_x said:
it's pretty simple ... we need to add objectives and line items to foster the society we want ... right now ... everything is predicated on metrics such as gdp, growth, unemployment rate, etc.. metrics that are not only misleading but deliver us a society of inequalities and injustices along with an unsustainable future ...mrussel1 said:
Then I guess I don't understand how the philosophy you set forth is achievable or actionable. Are you basically saying that we encourage the wrong behaviors which lead to the wrong results so this is just a mindset that needs to change by parents, teachers, churches, etc but no gov't action? Or are you saying there is some specific government action that would be taken?polaris_x said:
nothing of the sort ... there is nothing n what I wrote that begs for communism ...mrussel1 said:
What it appears you are advocating is the stepping stone into communism. The problem with communism (among many) is that it is soiled by human nature. There are no examples of communism being successful in practice, only corrupt, just like capitalism can be corrupt.polaris_x said:
it's what we talked about before in other threads ... stockmarkets, shareholders, growth, etc ...mrussel1 said:
What does 'blown up' mean? What type of economy are you recommending, if not a market economy?polaris_x said:this is why the foundation of the economy needs to be blown up ... we can talk about all the "watchdogs" there are ... but in the end ... the object of the game is what causes this ... it's the cause of all imbalances and fraud ... this won't be the last scandal ... this is not an isolated case ...
the fundamentals of our economy are based on mythological objectives that do not serve societal needs ... what we discussed about the unemployment rate is a great example ...
the economy should be founded on principles of sustainability ... not just environmental but economic sustainability ... it should focus on creating a system that accounts for injustices and inequities ... not just seek profits and growth ... an economy that seeks for people to earn living wages not amass as much wealth as possible without consequence ...
For me, I believe we should strive for equality of opportunity, not equality of outcomes. If you are in the workforce with more than 10 people, I'm sure you see it everyday. There are people who work harder than other people. People who care more, put in more hours, create a better work product. Why should the reward be the same? That makes no sense to me.
it's definitely socialist in principle but nowhere near communism ...
like barack obama said ... global warming is the biggest threat to life on this planet ... and yet the environment is an afterthought in the metrics of the economy ... the well being of people is not considered ...
the current structure is a rigged game ... it should be blatantly obvious by now ...
I'll take you up on the 'rigged game' comment later. I don't understand this phrase in its current context and it has been used and abused in 2016.
it's not about everyone getting everything for free or not rewarding hard work ... it's about promoting the outcomes that is in the interests of all ... take the nfl for example ... the objective is to win the superbowl ... only 1 team can ... and we've seen in recent history what teams will do to achieve that ... concussions, addiction to pain killers, spygate, deflategate, steroids, etc ... imagine a game where the objective is for players to have fun and stay active so that they can live a healthy lifestyle into their later years? ... the economic system now is more reflected by the NFL than it does a system that's meant to benefit society ...
competition is necessary, not just in the example of the NFL, but in the market...its the dirty antics used in both that need to be scrubbed out its not necessarily the systems themselves that are the problems which has been seen in both our economy and those in socialism and communism
use 5 words that you would want your society to be about ... your idea ...0 -
That's why you have referees (e.g., courts, prosecutors, CFPB, regulators). They can't catch everything, but they catch many things and the rules have changed in the past few years to better protect the athletes, like no helmet to helmet contact and no low hits on the QB. It's like instilling new reserve requirements at a bank, creating the CFPB, strengthening the OCC. It's actually a pretty fair analogy when you think about it. If you make winning not important, the league folds. If you tweak the rules to continue to foster fair competition, the game thrives.polaris_x said:
you're looking at the business side of the NFL ... my analogy focuses simply on the game ... and the objectives of the game ... when the objective is to win at all costs ... it fosters cheating ... and that is what you see on almost every play of the game ... someone is holding, someone is trying to get away with things because ultimately winning is all that matters ...mrussel1 said:
Interesting. And how long do you think the NFL will be in business if its objective is to have fun and stay healthy? Do you think people will pay to go to games? Advertisers will put ads on the TV? Will the networks renew their contracts? What you are advocating is essentially a televised exercising in the park which will be the end of the NFL.polaris_x said:
it's pretty simple ... we need to add objectives and line items to foster the society we want ... right now ... everything is predicated on metrics such as gdp, growth, unemployment rate, etc.. metrics that are not only misleading but deliver us a society of inequalities and injustices along with an unsustainable future ...mrussel1 said:
Then I guess I don't understand how the philosophy you set forth is achievable or actionable. Are you basically saying that we encourage the wrong behaviors which lead to the wrong results so this is just a mindset that needs to change by parents, teachers, churches, etc but no gov't action? Or are you saying there is some specific government action that would be taken?polaris_x said:
nothing of the sort ... there is nothing n what I wrote that begs for communism ...mrussel1 said:
What it appears you are advocating is the stepping stone into communism. The problem with communism (among many) is that it is soiled by human nature. There are no examples of communism being successful in practice, only corrupt, just like capitalism can be corrupt.polaris_x said:
it's what we talked about before in other threads ... stockmarkets, shareholders, growth, etc ...mrussel1 said:
What does 'blown up' mean? What type of economy are you recommending, if not a market economy?polaris_x said:this is why the foundation of the economy needs to be blown up ... we can talk about all the "watchdogs" there are ... but in the end ... the object of the game is what causes this ... it's the cause of all imbalances and fraud ... this won't be the last scandal ... this is not an isolated case ...
the fundamentals of our economy are based on mythological objectives that do not serve societal needs ... what we discussed about the unemployment rate is a great example ...
the economy should be founded on principles of sustainability ... not just environmental but economic sustainability ... it should focus on creating a system that accounts for injustices and inequities ... not just seek profits and growth ... an economy that seeks for people to earn living wages not amass as much wealth as possible without consequence ...
For me, I believe we should strive for equality of opportunity, not equality of outcomes. If you are in the workforce with more than 10 people, I'm sure you see it everyday. There are people who work harder than other people. People who care more, put in more hours, create a better work product. Why should the reward be the same? That makes no sense to me.
it's definitely socialist in principle but nowhere near communism ...
like barack obama said ... global warming is the biggest threat to life on this planet ... and yet the environment is an afterthought in the metrics of the economy ... the well being of people is not considered ...
the current structure is a rigged game ... it should be blatantly obvious by now ...
I'll take you up on the 'rigged game' comment later. I don't understand this phrase in its current context and it has been used and abused in 2016.
it's not about everyone getting everything for free or not rewarding hard work ... it's about promoting the outcomes that is in the interests of all ... take the nfl for example ... the objective is to win the superbowl ... only 1 team can ... and we've seen in recent history what teams will do to achieve that ... concussions, addiction to pain killers, spygate, deflategate, steroids, etc ... imagine a game where the objective is for players to have fun and stay active so that they can live a healthy lifestyle into their later years? ... the economic system now is more reflected by the NFL than it does a system that's meant to benefit society ...0
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