Police shooting people.....

Of course that distrust only puts them in greater danger and widens the gulf, but gut reactions like fear, anger, and resentment don't come from a place of dispassionate reason.

What gambis wrote isn't a generalization, it's validating a lot of black people's emotions around the issue and pointing out some people's ridiculous logic used in response to pointing out police abuse of power.

rgambs said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

rgambs said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

dignin said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

"Wow. Another black guy got shot by a cop!"
- implies cops mowing down black guys fueled by racist attitudes

"Wow. Another black guy resisting arrest got shot by a cop!"
- implies guy at point of arrest challenged cops and got shot for doing so

Which of the big profile cases were of the first variety? I can think of Tamir Rice and the recent one in Minnesota off the top of my head.

The other cases I'm remembering were of the second variety. And being of the second variety, in many circles including ones here, a very significant part of the equation is consistently left out- damning cops in the process and nurturing the 'us versus them' attitude which has recently resulted in cops targeted for death by people buying the 'us versus them' attitude.

The police have had an us vs. them attitude for a long time. It is shitty that civilians are starting to buy into that but who couldn't see that happening?

I know. That's stupid on the part of civilians. The criminals are the only ones that should think of themselves as 'them'.

I'm on the 'us' side of the equation alongside cops. I don't break the law and I value their efforts to uphold it.

What bothers me is that you hold citizens to higher standards than police.
Your expectations are jacked. A highly trained professional officer is allowed to suspend judgement and act out of fear at the mere suggestion of a weapon, but when a cop points a weapon in a citizens face, the citizen is expected to keep their cool, follow directions, and remain calm.
That's just fucked.

I give police the right to protect themselves. I ask citizens to comply with the police.

If a citizen doesn't comply, resists, and is shot as a result... what can you say? I am not going to say cops need to exercise unbelievable restraint when dealing with confrontational people at the point of arrest- especially when doing so might place their lives at risk.

Don't want to get shot? Comply. Better yet... don't break the law.

Edit: what is f**ked is your eagerness to hold the bar so low for citizens... as if it is their right to not only break it, but resist it in a last ditch effort to avoid arrest.

That sounds like a direct quote from an SS officer.

I hope you never have to be put in a situation where a cop is losing his shit and pointing weapons at you for simply asking questions, but it would be nice to see you learn a little humility. "Just comply", right like it's so easy to comply when your being tased for asking what you did wrong.

Here's a guy that did just comply:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2016/07/21/fla-police-shoot-black-man-with-his-hands-up-as-he-tries-to-help-autistic-patient/?tid=sm_fb.

He did not call the cops "sir" though and not using "sir" is the gateway to getting combative.

This is an interesting one. The victim is a professional, is on camera being diplomatic and laying down with his arms in the air, and as a survivor can tell his story (assuming he's not taken out). Right now his background is being scoured and if we find out he was in a fight in high school, or got written up for smoking weed in his college dorm, I suppose all will be forgiven.

Most people either feel that the cops are justified each and every time or the cops are racists bent on killing each and every time. No middle ground; takes too much critical thought. And from the perspective of the former, they've usually found a transgression in the victim's past or saw a twitch (False Start, #71) so they could say "he was going for the cop's gun!"

Here the victim is a professional. He was clearly a non-threat. He was clearly compliant. And he's still alive. The only thing left is the results of the extensive search for past transgressions that is already underway. If any felonies turn up, then this gets put in the "justified shooting" bin with the rest of 'em. If a bar fight in 1993 turns up, people will use it. If nothing turns up, then maybe this becomes the wake up call to some that this is not all or none. Of course if nothing turns up, some fake stuff may surface.

rgambs said:

Degeneratefk said:

rgambs said:

Degeneratefk said:

rgambs said:

Clearly, there is no reason for black people to fear the police.
Just comply and everything will be fine.
Stop breaking the law.

This is the only example that I've seen where the was no resisting involved. If you have other examples of this happening, share them.

I don't, but if you choose to believe that this first definitive video represents the first instance of this happening, there is no reason to bother continuing the discussion.

These sorts of incidents are something the black community has lived with from the very beginning.
When a black man who hasn't broken the law is suspicious of police and "resists" an unjust detainment, perhaps people should remember this video when they wonder why trust is lacking.

I'm not saying cops haven't shot people in the past for little to no reason. What I'm saying goodbye is that your narrative that cops are walking around killing black people for no reason is not valid. Of all of the videos of cops killing people, there has been 1 common theme: resisting.

This particular shooting is obviously an exception to that. And there is no doubt this cop should be locked up.

There is no doubt he probably won't be.

I'm not saysaying this happens frequently, but it does happen regularly.
When you start paying attention to all the shit short of shooting (beatings, unreasonable searches and detainment, etc) that black people are regularly subjected to, the distrust of police should make sense.

He would almost certainly face some charges, the only other case as clear cut that I've seen (in SC) the cop was promptly arrested for murder and you never hear of it again.

He may not fave attempted murder charges if they believe it was an accidental discharge. Which I find believable. What seem more likely, that a racist murderous cop decided to commit a homicide in front of dozens of witnesses including cops, or couldn't handle the heat and unintentially discharged his weapon-remember they thought he was armed, which makes it seem more plausible to me.
Not that I think he didn't do anything wrong and shouldn't fave consequences, just that it's possible it wasn't a flat out attempted murder. Maybe wreckless endangerment, not sure what would be appropriate without any of the facts.

mace1229 said:

rgambs said:

Degeneratefk said:

rgambs said:

Degeneratefk said:

rgambs said:

Clearly, there is no reason for black people to fear the police.
Just comply and everything will be fine.
Stop breaking the law.

This is the only example that I've seen where the was no resisting involved. If you have other examples of this happening, share them.

I don't, but if you choose to believe that this first definitive video represents the first instance of this happening, there is no reason to bother continuing the discussion.

These sorts of incidents are something the black community has lived with from the very beginning.
When a black man who hasn't broken the law is suspicious of police and "resists" an unjust detainment, perhaps people should remember this video when they wonder why trust is lacking.

I'm not saying cops haven't shot people in the past for little to no reason. What I'm saying goodbye is that your narrative that cops are walking around killing black people for no reason is not valid. Of all of the videos of cops killing people, there has been 1 common theme: resisting.

This particular shooting is obviously an exception to that. And there is no doubt this cop should be locked up.

There is no doubt he probably won't be.

I'm not saysaying this happens frequently, but it does happen regularly.
When you start paying attention to all the shit short of shooting (beatings, unreasonable searches and detainment, etc) that black people are regularly subjected to, the distrust of police should make sense.

He would almost certainly face some charges, the only other case as clear cut that I've seen (in SC) the cop was promptly arrested for murder and you never hear of it again.

He may not fave attempted murder charges if they believe it was an accidental discharge. Which I find believable. What seem more likely, that a racist murderous cop decided to commit a homicide in front of dozens of witnesses including cops, or couldn't handle the heat and unintentially discharged his weapon-remember they thought he was armed, which makes it seem more plausible to me.
Not that I think he didn't do anything wrong and shouldn't fave consequences, just that it's possible it wasn't a flat out attempted murder. Maybe wreckless endangerment, not sure what would be appropriate without any of the facts.

Michael slager, the cop in north charleston, will most likely walk. The prosecution is still insisting on a first degree murder charge. But, if you remember, the guy he shot was not only running away, but when slager caught up to him, he was able to grab slagers taser and give him a couple of zaps. That's why he drew his gun in the first place.

Degeneratefk said:

mace1229 said:

rgambs said:

Degeneratefk said:

rgambs said:

Degeneratefk said:

rgambs said:

Clearly, there is no reason for black people to fear the police.
Just comply and everything will be fine.
Stop breaking the law.

This is the only example that I've seen where the was no resisting involved. If you have other examples of this happening, share them.

I don't, but if you choose to believe that this first definitive video represents the first instance of this happening, there is no reason to bother continuing the discussion.

These sorts of incidents are something the black community has lived with from the very beginning.
When a black man who hasn't broken the law is suspicious of police and "resists" an unjust detainment, perhaps people should remember this video when they wonder why trust is lacking.

I'm not saying cops haven't shot people in the past for little to no reason. What I'm saying goodbye is that your narrative that cops are walking around killing black people for no reason is not valid. Of all of the videos of cops killing people, there has been 1 common theme: resisting.

This particular shooting is obviously an exception to that. And there is no doubt this cop should be locked up.

There is no doubt he probably won't be.

I'm not saysaying this happens frequently, but it does happen regularly.
When you start paying attention to all the shit short of shooting (beatings, unreasonable searches and detainment, etc) that black people are regularly subjected to, the distrust of police should make sense.

He would almost certainly face some charges, the only other case as clear cut that I've seen (in SC) the cop was promptly arrested for murder and you never hear of it again.

He may not fave attempted murder charges if they believe it was an accidental discharge. Which I find believable. What seem more likely, that a racist murderous cop decided to commit a homicide in front of dozens of witnesses including cops, or couldn't handle the heat and unintentially discharged his weapon-remember they thought he was armed, which makes it seem more plausible to me.
Not that I think he didn't do anything wrong and shouldn't fave consequences, just that it's possible it wasn't a flat out attempted murder. Maybe wreckless endangerment, not sure what would be appropriate without any of the facts.

Michael slager, the cop in north charleston, will most likely walk. The prosecution is still insisting on a first degree murder charge. But, if you remember, the guy he shot was not only running away, but when slager caught up to him, he was able to grab slagers taser and give him a couple of zaps. That's why he drew his gun in the first place.

I had forgotten a lot of the details. Read up on it again, and I have to say it's hard to have much sympathy for the victim if the evidence ends up supporting Slager's story (not that he deserves to get shot, but you can't expect a good result when you wrestle a cop to the group and take his taser).
The defense is also arguing (or plan to argue) that lethal force is allowed if you believe there is an imminent threat to the community, which they will argue there was after the struggle. Looks like prosecutors are looking at additional charges other than first degree too.
I'd have to say if Slager's story is supported Id have a hard time with first degree (if it's not, then no problem with it). But still hold him responsible and that a second degree or manslaughter would be appropriate. If he walks it'll probably be the result of an over-reach on the prosecution, which does happen on high profile cases when they try to make too big of a statement.

Degeneratefk said:

mace1229 said:

Degeneratefk said:

mace1229 said:

rgambs said:

Degeneratefk said:

rgambs said:

Degeneratefk said:

rgambs said:

Clearly, there is no reason for black people to fear the police.
Just comply and everything will be fine.
Stop breaking the law.

This is the only example that I've seen where the was no resisting involved. If you have other examples of this happening, share them.

I don't, but if you choose to believe that this first definitive video represents the first instance of this happening, there is no reason to bother continuing the discussion.

These sorts of incidents are something the black community has lived with from the very beginning.
When a black man who hasn't broken the law is suspicious of police and "resists" an unjust detainment, perhaps people should remember this video when they wonder why trust is lacking.

I'm not saying cops haven't shot people in the past for little to no reason. What I'm saying goodbye is that your narrative that cops are walking around killing black people for no reason is not valid. Of all of the videos of cops killing people, there has been 1 common theme: resisting.

This particular shooting is obviously an exception to that. And there is no doubt this cop should be locked up.

There is no doubt he probably won't be.

I'm not saysaying this happens frequently, but it does happen regularly.
When you start paying attention to all the shit short of shooting (beatings, unreasonable searches and detainment, etc) that black people are regularly subjected to, the distrust of police should make sense.

He would almost certainly face some charges, the only other case as clear cut that I've seen (in SC) the cop was promptly arrested for murder and you never hear of it again.

He may not fave attempted murder charges if they believe it was an accidental discharge. Which I find believable. What seem more likely, that a racist murderous cop decided to commit a homicide in front of dozens of witnesses including cops, or couldn't handle the heat and unintentially discharged his weapon-remember they thought he was armed, which makes it seem more plausible to me.
Not that I think he didn't do anything wrong and shouldn't fave consequences, just that it's possible it wasn't a flat out attempted murder. Maybe wreckless endangerment, not sure what would be appropriate without any of the facts.

Michael slager, the cop in north charleston, will most likely walk. The prosecution is still insisting on a first degree murder charge. But, if you remember, the guy he shot was not only running away, but when slager caught up to him, he was able to grab slagers taser and give him a couple of zaps. That's why he drew his gun in the first place.

I had forgotten a lot of the details. Read up on it again, and I have to say it's hard to have much sympathy for the victim if the evidence ends up supporting Slager's story (not that he deserves to get shot, but you can't expect a good result when you wrestle a cop to the group and take his taser).
The defense is also arguing (or plan to argue) that lethal force is allowed if you believe there is an imminent threat to the community, which they will argue there was after the struggle. Looks like prosecutors are looking at additional charges other than first degree too.
I'd have to say if Slager's story is supported Id have a hard time with first degree (if it's not, then no problem with it). But still hold him responsible and that a second degree or manslaughter would be appropriate. If he walks it'll probably be the result of an over-reach on the prosecution, which does happen on high profile cases when they try to make too big of a statement.

8 shots in the back is definitely excessive and unnecessary. But, given the circumstances, slayer will probably walk. Slagers DNA was found on the tips of the taser. Which pretty much closes the door on first degree murder.

What's even more weird is the police union is refusing to pay for slagers defense. Slagers was fired after the shooting, but shouldn't he still get the benefits because the incident happened while he was an active member?

My guess would be the Union says something like if his job is terminated due to unlawful action then so is his union benefits. It's not like Darren Wilson who quit because of death threats from an on-duty shooting, Slager's was fired.

Cliffy6745 said:

Back to the North Miami shooting...

https://twitter.com/MrGeorgeWallace/status/756480685401972737

I believe it, there are a ton of officers out there that only hit the gun range when they have to renew certification. I'm blown away at how bad some of them shoot. It's not all entirety their fault, though. During ammo shortages, some agencies around here have relied on local reloaders to supply them with practice ammo. Some just aren't interested in firearm proficiency...which is a dumb thing in that line of work.

Cliffy6745 said:

PJPOWER said:

Cliffy6745 said:

Back to the North Miami shooting...

https://twitter.com/MrGeorgeWallace/status/756480685401972737

I believe it, there are a ton of officers out there that only hit the gun range when they have to renew certification. I'm blown away at how bad some of them shoot. It's not all entirety their fault, though. During ammo shortages, some agencies around here have relied on local reloaders to supply them with practice ammo. Some just aren't interested in firearm proficiency...which is a dumb thing in that line of work.

PJPOWER said:

Cliffy6745 said:

Back to the North Miami shooting...

https://twitter.com/MrGeorgeWallace/status/756480685401972737

I believe it, there are a ton of officers out there that only hit the gun range when they have to renew certification. I'm blown away at how bad some of them shoot. It's not all entirety their fault, though. During ammo shortages, some agencies around here have relied on local reloaders to supply them with practice ammo. Some just aren't interested in firearm proficiency...which is a dumb thing in that line of work.

So why did they handcuff him? Little bit of a hole in the story...

No clue, sounds like these particular individuals aren't very good at their job. Maybe that city should address crisis response as well as firearm proficiency training. The shooting was probably something as stupid as accidental discharge and they panicked? No excuses though, if I were to accidentally discharge a firearm and injure an innocent person, I would fully expect to be investigated and charged. Will they be?
Another thought on the handcuffs. As a formal mental health professional, I saw people restrained with cuffs by the police to keep them from further injuring themselves... Cuffs are not always used for arrests is the point I'm trying to make. Not trying to defend anyone, just thinking of other possibilities other than the typical "racism" response that people are all to quick to jump to.