Taxing Yourself to Oblivion

EdsonNascimento · June 2016

http://www.msn.com/en-us/money/taxes/why-americans-are-giving-up-citizenship-in-record-numbers/ar-BBtKrxc?li=BBnbfcL

Taxes, taxes, taxes

Reminds me of the parable that goes something like - 6 people meet for beers every week and all split the cost. Bartender decides, hey, they come every week, I'll double the price. 2 of the friends unfortunately can't afford the new price, so won't be coming. The other 4 are such good people they say, don't worry about it, just pay what you can. We like your company. Slowly, those 2 start paying less and less as they realize the other 4 are willing to cover more and more. After a while, the bartender decides - hey, they keep coming, let me raise the price again. Another 2 say they can't afford the new price. Well, the "remaining" 2 say - no worries. We can cover the difference, just pay what you had been paying, and we'll be fine. Works for a short while until those 2nd 2 start wondering why they are paying so much when the 1st 2 now pay nothing. So, they start paying less and less. So, as not to disrupt the gathering they like so much the 2 payers tighten up elsewhere so they can continue the gathering. Then the bartender decides to raise the price per beer again. Now, the 5th one pulls the 6th one aside and says - dude, I'd love to keep doing this, but my wife really wants that vacation, and I can't keep doing this. The 6th says- I hear ya, but it's such a good time. Don't tell the others, and I'll cover the difference. So, 5 and 6 keep paying this way for a while. Then number 6 stops showing up. Number 5 picks up the tab that week, but decides at that moment - no way I'm coming next week. The next week the first 4 show up, get their beers and spend their last night together bitching that 5 and 6 ditched them and left them holding the check.

polaris_x · June 2016

lame analogy ...

in any case ... americans aren't taxed that high unless you're in a few select states/places ... compare american taxation rates to any other oecd country ... then understand that no country would consider americans socialists in any way ... so, if you think americans are paying too much tax and yet do not qualify as a socialist country ... where is all that money going to? ... perhaps fueling the MIC or tax breaks for coporations?

Gern Blansten · June 2016

yeah that is just ignorant

If you want to compare the US tax rate to other countries you have to factor in the % of income that you pay in the US for things that are provided for you in other countries. Depending on your income health care could be anywhere from 30% to 5% of your income.

rgambs · June 2016

Hahaha taxation is only something a person worries about when their life is so good they have absolutely nothing else to occupy their anxieties.

Clearly America has it bad, I mean, it's terrible living in the most comfortable society on Earth with our taxes driving us into oblivion.

EdsonNascimento · June 2016

Let's not take it so literal. Let's also not compare the US to other countries. That's 100% besides the point. I don't expect Canada to conform to the US anymore than I want the US to conform to anyone.

So, now the main issue - let's say this type of migration (not that specifically sited in the article, but just a general movement when someone of their own volition decides - I move) causes a loss of even $100M in tax revenue. How is that made up? And who is less mobile and more apt to be on the hook (if we in fact ever intend to pay for all the stuff we like to buy)?

polaris_x · June 2016

the problem with your analogy is that it continues to represent this mythological concept of social construct ... that the wealthy pay for everything ...

also - if your concern is about tax revenue loss due to migration ... maybe consider letting people into your country legally and allow them to earn a fair wage where they can contribute to the tax pool ... on top of that - maybe look to see how the panama papers show who's been avoiding contributing to the tax pool ...

EdsonNascimento · June 2016

Ha, ha, ha. The US has the greatest immigration of any country in the world. We have legal means to become a citizen. I think that comment is beyond hysterical. We are trying to stop ILLEGAL immigration b/c that's a drain on resources and takes jobs from people who are trying to do it the legal way. If it's not quick enough, those people should try another country. We don't make them stay.

That being said, you are arguing a totally different point. Even if they earned a "fair" wage, they'd be contributing very little to the tax pool (if at all).

As for avoiding taxes - I agree, but that's one in the same argument isn't it? Those are people that are leaving without leaving, but the concept is the same. I don't like that either, and it's illegal, but it only further serves to prove my point.

So, I will ask again - if you lose $100M in tax revenue who pays? (and that neglects to add all the ILLEGAL - as in breaking the law - "residents" you want the US to grant legal status to w/o following the same proper legal process that millions each year do).

lukin2006 · June 2016

Taxes aren't the problem ... Governments who spend like drunken sailors on pie in the sky ideas without so much of a shred of a business plan is the problem.

Gern Blansten · June 2016

lukin2006 said:
Taxes aren't the problem ... Governments who spend like drunken sailors on pie in the sky ideas without so much of a shred of a business plan is the problem.

exactly....going to war without paying for it comes to mind

EdsonNascimento · June 2016

lukin2006 said:
Taxes aren't the problem ... Governments who spend like drunken sailors on pie in the sky ideas without so much of a shred of a business plan is the problem.

Agree.

EdsonNascimento · June 2016

Gern Blansten said:

lukin2006 said:
Taxes aren't the problem ... Governments who spend like drunken sailors on pie in the sky ideas without so much of a shred of a business plan is the problem.
exactly....going to war without paying for it comes to mind

Or, enlarging yet another entitlement program ignoring the experts and without anyone reading it nor a method of payment.

rgambs · June 2016

EdsonNascimento said:
Ha, ha, ha. The US has the greatest immigration of any country in the world. We have legal means to become a citizen. I think that comment is beyond hysterical. We are trying to stop ILLEGAL immigration b/c that's a drain on resources and takes jobs from people who are trying to do it the legal way. If it's not quick enough, those people should try another country. We don't make them stay.

That being said, you are arguing a totally different point. Even if they earned a "fair" wage, they'd be contributing very little to the tax pool (if at all).

As for avoiding taxes - I agree, but that's one in the same argument isn't it? Those are people that are leaving without leaving, but the concept is the same. I don't like that either, and it's illegal, but it only further serves to prove my point.

So, I will ask again - if you lose $100M in tax revenue who pays? (and that neglects to add all the ILLEGAL - as in breaking the law - "residents" you want the US to grant legal status to w/o following the same proper legal process that millions each year do).

Of course it couldn't be the corporations that are hiding TRILLIONS in offshore accounts.
You would never support that, would you?

EdsonNascimento · June 2016

rgambs said:

EdsonNascimento said:
Ha, ha, ha. The US has the greatest immigration of any country in the world. We have legal means to become a citizen. I think that comment is beyond hysterical. We are trying to stop ILLEGAL immigration b/c that's a drain on resources and takes jobs from people who are trying to do it the legal way. If it's not quick enough, those people should try another country. We don't make them stay.

That being said, you are arguing a totally different point. Even if they earned a "fair" wage, they'd be contributing very little to the tax pool (if at all).

As for avoiding taxes - I agree, but that's one in the same argument isn't it? Those are people that are leaving without leaving, but the concept is the same. I don't like that either, and it's illegal, but it only further serves to prove my point.

So, I will ask again - if you lose $100M in tax revenue who pays? (and that neglects to add all the ILLEGAL - as in breaking the law - "residents" you want the US to grant legal status to w/o following the same proper legal process that millions each year do).
Of course it couldn't be the corporations that are hiding TRILLIONS in offshore accounts.
You would never support that, would you?

I don't support that if it's illegal. If it's illegal, it's illegal. However, if it's legal, then change the laws and see what happens. It's not so simple. Calling it hiding leads the question. But, again, this only further serves to prove my point.

Again, you're arguing how the money is migrating, I am asking - how are you going to pay for lost revenue when the money walks out the door and who is left holding the bag?

lukin2006 · June 2016

According to Tim Cook ... CEO of Apple it's the us tax code that's screwed up ... It was designed for the Industrial Age, not the digital / technology age and these corporations are not hiding as much as the media and politicians make out ... The money kept overseas is money earned overseas and if Apple as an example were to repatriate the money they have overseas they'd pay 40% tax ... So why should those companies pay tax to the a government where the revenue was earned elsewhere?

rgambs · June 2016

EdsonNascimento said:

rgambs said:

EdsonNascimento said:
Ha, ha, ha. The US has the greatest immigration of any country in the world. We have legal means to become a citizen. I think that comment is beyond hysterical. We are trying to stop ILLEGAL immigration b/c that's a drain on resources and takes jobs from people who are trying to do it the legal way. If it's not quick enough, those people should try another country. We don't make them stay.

That being said, you are arguing a totally different point. Even if they earned a "fair" wage, they'd be contributing very little to the tax pool (if at all).

As for avoiding taxes - I agree, but that's one in the same argument isn't it? Those are people that are leaving without leaving, but the concept is the same. I don't like that either, and it's illegal, but it only further serves to prove my point.

So, I will ask again - if you lose $100M in tax revenue who pays? (and that neglects to add all the ILLEGAL - as in breaking the law - "residents" you want the US to grant legal status to w/o following the same proper legal process that millions each year do).
Of course it couldn't be the corporations that are hiding TRILLIONS in offshore accounts.
You would never support that, would you?
I don't support that if it's illegal. If it's illegal, it's illegal. However, if it's legal, then change the laws and see what happens. It's not so simple. Calling it hiding leads the question. But, again, this only further serves to prove my point.

Again, you're arguing how the money is migrating, I am asking - how are you going to pay for lost revenue when the money walks out the door and who is left holding the bag?

You change the laws and enforce those being broken to stop the money from migrating, it's that simple. Make GE (for instance) pay taxes. Take away subsidies for incredibly profitable energy companies and corporations taking advantage of a system set up to benefit the richest groups and individuals.
Increase and enforce import taxes for those who walk away with their money but still want to sell the goods and services in America.

Gern Blansten · June 2016

EdsonNascimento said:

Gern Blansten said:

lukin2006 said:
Taxes aren't the problem ... Governments who spend like drunken sailors on pie in the sky ideas without so much of a shred of a business plan is the problem.
exactly....going to war without paying for it comes to mind
Or, enlarging yet another entitlement program ignoring the experts and without anyone reading it nor a method of payment.

Try again....google "net investment income tax", plus the penalty for non-coverage

EdsonNascimento · June 2016

Gern Blansten said:

EdsonNascimento said:

Gern Blansten said:

lukin2006 said:
Taxes aren't the problem ... Governments who spend like drunken sailors on pie in the sky ideas without so much of a shred of a business plan is the problem.
exactly....going to war without paying for it comes to mind
Or, enlarging yet another entitlement program ignoring the experts and without anyone reading it nor a method of payment.
Try again....google "net investment income tax", plus the penalty for non-coverage

Ha, ha, ha. Yep. That's what's going to pay for it. This is the problem with entitlement programs. They are built on pie in the sky funding mechanisms.

Penalty for non-coverage. Oh. Good one. I'm not even sure that's a drop in the bucket. Whoo. Thank you. Needed a good laugh this afternoon.

Gern Blansten · June 2016

http://www.npr.org/sections/itsallpolitics/2015/10/23/451200436/mitt-romney-finally-takes-credit-for-obamacare

keep laughing...it's the exact same plan that the repubs would have used. Romney was begging for it

EdsonNascimento · June 2016

rgambs said:

EdsonNascimento said:

rgambs said:

EdsonNascimento said:
Ha, ha, ha. The US has the greatest immigration of any country in the world. We have legal means to become a citizen. I think that comment is beyond hysterical. We are trying to stop ILLEGAL immigration b/c that's a drain on resources and takes jobs from people who are trying to do it the legal way. If it's not quick enough, those people should try another country. We don't make them stay.

That being said, you are arguing a totally different point. Even if they earned a "fair" wage, they'd be contributing very little to the tax pool (if at all).

As for avoiding taxes - I agree, but that's one in the same argument isn't it? Those are people that are leaving without leaving, but the concept is the same. I don't like that either, and it's illegal, but it only further serves to prove my point.

So, I will ask again - if you lose $100M in tax revenue who pays? (and that neglects to add all the ILLEGAL - as in breaking the law - "residents" you want the US to grant legal status to w/o following the same proper legal process that millions each year do).
Of course it couldn't be the corporations that are hiding TRILLIONS in offshore accounts.
You would never support that, would you?
I don't support that if it's illegal. If it's illegal, it's illegal. However, if it's legal, then change the laws and see what happens. It's not so simple. Calling it hiding leads the question. But, again, this only further serves to prove my point.

Again, you're arguing how the money is migrating, I am asking - how are you going to pay for lost revenue when the money walks out the door and who is left holding the bag?
You change the laws and enforce those being broken to stop the money from migrating, it's that simple. Make GE (for instance) pay taxes. Take away subsidies for incredibly profitable energy companies and corporations taking advantage of a system set up to benefit the richest groups and individuals.
Increase and enforce import taxes for those who walk away with their money but still want to sell the goods and services in America.

Again, you're answering the question with the question. Let's say you could accomplish all this revisionist stuff and that it's actually all true - THAT'S THE POINT!!!!!

so, keep taxing and see what the rich do. Now, can you please answer my question - when they "leave" (which according to you they already have) who's paying for stuff?

polaris_x · June 2016

sooo ... what are you proposing!?? ... make the game EVEN more favourable to the rich so they will consider staying and not hiding money or leveraging loopholes? ...

gimmesometruth27 · June 2016

Gern Blansten said:
http://www.npr.org/sections/itsallpolitics/2015/10/23/451200436/mitt-romney-finally-takes-credit-for-obamacare

keep laughing...it's the exact same plan that the repubs would have used. Romney was begging for it

thank you for pointing it out.

you would think the revisionists on here had never heard of romneycare before. :facepalm:

Taxing Yourself to Oblivion

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