Taxing Yourself to Oblivion

gimmesometruth27

rgambs said:

Hahaha taxation is only something a person worries about when their life is so good they have absolutely nothing else to occupy their anxieties.

Clearly America has it bad, I mean, it's terrible living in the most comfortable society on Earth with our taxes driving us into oblivion.

yeah i don't know how i am going to stay afloat with my 15% tax rate, all of which is taken out of my paycheck before i even receive my check.... so it is like i never had that money to begin with. so it is basically like i am not missing it at all. but i am going to complain about it loudly!!!!

what dreams

15% . . . Is that for real? What do I have to do to get a 15% tax rate?

All I know is that as a teacher, I've had to work two or three jobs to make it month to month for almost my entire career. The only time I was able to afford the luxury of only working one job was for a few years under the Bush tax cuts. Those of you living large may poo-poo a $200/month difference, but when you are living hand to mouth, it's huge. Then Obama came along, promising that people like me would be just fine, and Congress allowed the tax cut to expire. Guess who's working two jobs again? It's either that, or charging groceries and gas on a credit card the last week of the month.

I am not an economist and will not claim to understand the intricacies of the tax code, but it's fucked. I'm not married, I have no kids, no house, no charitable contributions. I'm not a farmer or a railroad worker, I'm not in school, nothing. The standard deduction is my only friend. It pisses me off to no end that the government uses the tax code for social engineering purposes -- to promote this or support that kind of lifestyle. It's bullshit. Why do I get no breaks just because I choose to be childless and I don't want to be tied to a house?

And these people who talk about these rates being so low compared to whatever measure . . . Do they count all the other myriad taxes and fees besides income? We pay sales tax, gas tax, meals tax, tourism tax, tolls on the highway, car taxes and tags, registrations, and inspections, communications tax, surcharges on electric and water, 2.5% on FOOD. I gotta pay the government just to eat!!!. . . If you add all that shit up, I'm easily forking 50% of my income over to some government entity. I'm being robbed blind!

rgambs

what dreams said:

15% . . . Is that for real? What do I have to do to get a 15% tax rate?

All I know is that as a teacher, I've had to work two or three jobs to make it month to month for almost my entire career. The only time I was able to afford the luxury of only working one job was for a few years under the Bush tax cuts. Those of you living large may poo-poo a $200/month difference, but when you are living hand to mouth, it's huge. Then Obama came along, promising that people like me would be just fine, and Congress allowed the tax cut to expire. Guess who's working two jobs again? It's either that, or charging groceries and gas on a credit card the last week of the month.

I am not an economist and will not claim to understand the intricacies of the tax code, but it's fucked. I'm not married, I have no kids, no house, no charitable contributions. I'm not a farmer or a railroad worker, I'm not in school, nothing. The standard deduction is my only friend. It pisses me off to no end that the government uses the tax code for social engineering purposes -- to promote this or support that kind of lifestyle. It's bullshit. Why do I get no breaks just because I choose to be childless and I don't want to be tied to a house?

And these people who talk about these rates being so low compared to whatever measure . . . Do they count all the other myriad taxes and fees besides income? We pay sales tax, gas tax, meals tax, tourism tax, tolls on the highway, car taxes and tags, registrations, and inspections, communications tax, surcharges on electric and water, 2.5% on FOOD. I gotta pay the government just to eat!!!. . . If you add all that shit up, I'm easily forking 50% of my income over to some government entity. I'm being robbed blind!

Something doesn't seem right here. If you make so little that you live hand to mouth then your tax rate shouldn't be much more than 15% unless you are living luxuriously. 200$ a month difference seems like way more than makes sense for the Bush tax cuts expiring, unless you are actually making pretty damn good money. It wasn't nearly so much for myself or my old man, who was making about 45k a year. Also, I don't know any teachers that struggle nearly that much, they all get summer jobs that make up a nice chunk of their income and none have Ever needed second jobs.
Maybe I am wrong, but it doesn't match at all what my experience has been as a pretty lowly paid worker.

Edit*
You aren't being robbed blind, you are being overcharged, if that.
Our taxes go a long way towards maintaining this as the safest and most comfortable country on the planet.

josevolution

EdsonNascimento said:

http://www.msn.com/en-us/money/taxes/why-americans-are-giving-up-citizenship-in-record-numbers/ar-BBtKrxc?li=BBnbfcL

Taxes, taxes, taxes

Reminds me of the parable that goes something like - 6 people meet for beers every week and all split the cost. Bartender decides, hey, they come every week, I'll double the price. 2 of the friends unfortunately can't afford the new price, so won't be coming. The other 4 are such good people they say, don't worry about it, just pay what you can. We like your company. Slowly, those 2 start paying less and less as they realize the other 4 are willing to cover more and more. After a while, the bartender decides - hey, they keep coming, let me raise the price again. Another 2 say they can't afford the new price. Well, the "remaining" 2 say - no worries. We can cover the difference, just pay what you had been paying, and we'll be fine. Works for a short while until those 2nd 2 start wondering why they are paying so much when the 1st 2 now pay nothing. So, they start paying less and less. So, as not to disrupt the gathering they like so much the 2 payers tighten up elsewhere so they can continue the gathering. Then the bartender decides to raise the price per beer again. Now, the 5th one pulls the 6th one aside and says - dude, I'd love to keep doing this, but my wife really wants that vacation, and I can't keep doing this. The 6th says- I hear ya, but it's such a good time. Don't tell the others, and I'll cover the difference. So, 5 and 6 keep paying this way for a while. Then number 6 stops showing up. Number 5 picks up the tab that week, but decides at that moment - no way I'm coming next week. The next week the first 4 show up, get their beers and spend their last night together bitching that 5 and 6 ditched them and left them holding the check.

Ok so you posed the ? What's your answer please tell us how you want things to be ? Please give us your tax plan

PJfanwillneverleave1

rgambs said:

what dreams said:

15% . . . Is that for real? What do I have to do to get a 15% tax rate?

All I know is that as a teacher, I've had to work two or three jobs to make it month to month for almost my entire career. The only time I was able to afford the luxury of only working one job was for a few years under the Bush tax cuts. Those of you living large may poo-poo a $200/month difference, but when you are living hand to mouth, it's huge. Then Obama came along, promising that people like me would be just fine, and Congress allowed the tax cut to expire. Guess who's working two jobs again? It's either that, or charging groceries and gas on a credit card the last week of the month.

I am not an economist and will not claim to understand the intricacies of the tax code, but it's fucked. I'm not married, I have no kids, no house, no charitable contributions. I'm not a farmer or a railroad worker, I'm not in school, nothing. The standard deduction is my only friend. It pisses me off to no end that the government uses the tax code for social engineering purposes -- to promote this or support that kind of lifestyle. It's bullshit. Why do I get no breaks just because I choose to be childless and I don't want to be tied to a house?

And these people who talk about these rates being so low compared to whatever measure . . . Do they count all the other myriad taxes and fees besides income? We pay sales tax, gas tax, meals tax, tourism tax, tolls on the highway, car taxes and tags, registrations, and inspections, communications tax, surcharges on electric and water, 2.5% on FOOD. I gotta pay the government just to eat!!!. . . If you add all that shit up, I'm easily forking 50% of my income over to some government entity. I'm being robbed blind!

Something doesn't seem right here. If you make so little that you live hand to mouth then your tax rate shouldn't be much more than 15% unless you are living luxuriously. 200$ a month difference seems like way more than makes sense for the Bush tax cuts expiring, unless you are actually making pretty damn good money. It wasn't nearly so much for myself or my old man, who was making about 45k a year. Also, I don't know any teachers that struggle nearly that much, they all get summer jobs that make up a nice chunk of their income and none have Ever needed second jobs.
Maybe I am wrong, but it doesn't match at all what my experience has been as a pretty lowly paid worker.

Edit*
You aren't being robbed blind, you are being overcharged, if that.
Our taxes go a long way towards maintaining this as the safest and most comfortable country on the planet.

Explain how a no war attitude can support this?

oftenreading

rgambs said:

what dreams said:

15% . . . Is that for real? What do I have to do to get a 15% tax rate?

All I know is that as a teacher, I've had to work two or three jobs to make it month to month for almost my entire career. The only time I was able to afford the luxury of only working one job was for a few years under the Bush tax cuts. Those of you living large may poo-poo a $200/month difference, but when you are living hand to mouth, it's huge. Then Obama came along, promising that people like me would be just fine, and Congress allowed the tax cut to expire. Guess who's working two jobs again? It's either that, or charging groceries and gas on a credit card the last week of the month.

I am not an economist and will not claim to understand the intricacies of the tax code, but it's fucked. I'm not married, I have no kids, no house, no charitable contributions. I'm not a farmer or a railroad worker, I'm not in school, nothing. The standard deduction is my only friend. It pisses me off to no end that the government uses the tax code for social engineering purposes -- to promote this or support that kind of lifestyle. It's bullshit. Why do I get no breaks just because I choose to be childless and I don't want to be tied to a house?

And these people who talk about these rates being so low compared to whatever measure . . . Do they count all the other myriad taxes and fees besides income? We pay sales tax, gas tax, meals tax, tourism tax, tolls on the highway, car taxes and tags, registrations, and inspections, communications tax, surcharges on electric and water, 2.5% on FOOD. I gotta pay the government just to eat!!!. . . If you add all that shit up, I'm easily forking 50% of my income over to some government entity. I'm being robbed blind!

Something doesn't seem right here. If you make so little that you live hand to mouth then your tax rate shouldn't be much more than 15% unless you are living luxuriously. 200$ a month difference seems like way more than makes sense for the Bush tax cuts expiring, unless you are actually making pretty damn good money. It wasn't nearly so much for myself or my old man, who was making about 45k a year. Also, I don't know any teachers that struggle nearly that much, they all get summer jobs that make up a nice chunk of their income and none have Ever needed second jobs.
Maybe I am wrong, but it doesn't match at all what my experience has been as a pretty lowly paid worker.

Edit*
You aren't being robbed blind, you are being overcharged, if that.
Our taxes go a long way towards maintaining this as the safest and most comfortable country on the planet.

Pardon me? By what measure is the US the safest and most comfortable country on the planet?

Smellyman

what dreams said:

15% . . . Is that for real? What do I have to do to get a 15% tax rate?

All I know is that as a teacher, I've had to work two or three jobs to make it month to month for almost my entire career. The only time I was able to afford the luxury of only working one job was for a few years under the Bush tax cuts. Those of you living large may poo-poo a $200/month difference, but when you are living hand to mouth, it's huge. Then Obama came along, promising that people like me would be just fine, and Congress allowed the tax cut to expire. Guess who's working two jobs again? It's either that, or charging groceries and gas on a credit card the last week of the month.

I am not an economist and will not claim to understand the intricacies of the tax code, but it's fucked. I'm not married, I have no kids, no house, no charitable contributions. I'm not a farmer or a railroad worker, I'm not in school, nothing. The standard deduction is my only friend. It pisses me off to no end that the government uses the tax code for social engineering purposes -- to promote this or support that kind of lifestyle. It's bullshit. Why do I get no breaks just because I choose to be childless and I don't want to be tied to a house?

And these people who talk about these rates being so low compared to whatever measure . . . Do they count all the other myriad taxes and fees besides income? We pay sales tax, gas tax, meals tax, tourism tax, tolls on the highway, car taxes and tags, registrations, and inspections, communications tax, surcharges on electric and water, 2.5% on FOOD. I gotta pay the government just to eat!!!. . . If you add all that shit up, I'm easily forking 50% of my income over to some government entity. I'm being robbed blind!

Are you trying to live like Trump? I know tons of teachers and none work two jobs.

50% of your income to the government on a teachers salary CANNOT BE TRUE

what dreams

Who are all of you to judge how I live? My rent alone in the DC metro area, for a 1 bedroom apartment built in 1986, is $1500. If trying to live by myself as single 46 year-old woman in the community where I work is "living like Trump," then just go fuck you if you choose to live in a trailer in the woods among the Amish. I don't even know why I bother to participate in these discussions. These threads are full of nothing but condescending know-it-alls who think they are going to change the world by telling everybody else how to live and breathe, including how to run my own household finances on a salary that hasn't changed since 2008, no thanks to Obama and his grand economic succces. I should be so lucky to know everything.

what dreams

Correction: my income DID change under Obama. IT WENT DOWN. In the year the tax cuts expired, it was $120 less a month. Another year, in response to all the anti-teacher rhetoric because we're all living like Trump, the state shifted the burden of retirement contributions onto teachers -- another $50 in lowered benefits. In the year after the ACA, my school district overhauled its health benefits, so my premium increased by $30 for much shittier coverage, and next year they are implementing a $2000 deductible including office visits. So there goes that "benefit." Thanks, Obama, for all the hope and change I voted for.

Gern Blansten

what dreams said:

Correction: my income DID change under Obama. IT WENT DOWN. In the year the tax cuts expired, it was $120 less a month. Another year, in response to all the anti-teacher rhetoric because we're all living like Trump, the state shifted the burden of retirement contributions onto teachers -- another $50 in lowered benefits. In the year after the ACA, my school district overhauled its health benefits, so my premium increased by $30 for much shittier coverage, and next year they are implementing a $2000 deductible including office visits. So there goes that "benefit." Thanks, Obama, for all the hope and change I voted for.

excuse me...the tax cuts that you are talking about were a stimulus. That was always temporary. Obama didn't change anything...the GOP congress voted to let those cuts expire and that is what happened. They blasted Obama for not doing away with the expiration but if he would have extended it they would have blasted him for increasing the deficit.

I would bet that you pay very little federal income tax. If you have a child you are paying $0 income tax so quit exaggerating.

what dreams

Gern Blansten said:

what dreams said:

Correction: my income DID change under Obama. IT WENT DOWN. In the year the tax cuts expired, it was $120 less a month. Another year, in response to all the anti-teacher rhetoric because we're all living like Trump, the state shifted the burden of retirement contributions onto teachers -- another $50 in lowered benefits. In the year after the ACA, my school district overhauled its health benefits, so my premium increased by $30 for much shittier coverage, and next year they are implementing a $2000 deductible including office visits. So there goes that "benefit." Thanks, Obama, for all the hope and change I voted for.

excuse me...the tax cuts that you are talking about were a stimulus. That was always temporary. Obama didn't change anything...the GOP congress voted to let those cuts expire and that is what happened. They blasted Obama for not doing away with the expiration but if he would have extended it they would have blasted him for increasing the deficit.

I would bet that you pay very little federal income tax. If you have a child you are paying $0 income tax so quit exaggerating.

Jesus, what do I have to do, submit my pay stubs and W2 forms to you people? Get over yourselves!! I pay 33% of my income to the feds and state. Then I pay all those additional taxes on just plain old living.

Gern Blansten

what dreams said:

Gern Blansten said:

what dreams said:

Correction: my income DID change under Obama. IT WENT DOWN. In the year the tax cuts expired, it was $120 less a month. Another year, in response to all the anti-teacher rhetoric because we're all living like Trump, the state shifted the burden of retirement contributions onto teachers -- another $50 in lowered benefits. In the year after the ACA, my school district overhauled its health benefits, so my premium increased by $30 for much shittier coverage, and next year they are implementing a $2000 deductible including office visits. So there goes that "benefit." Thanks, Obama, for all the hope and change I voted for.

excuse me...the tax cuts that you are talking about were a stimulus. That was always temporary. Obama didn't change anything...the GOP congress voted to let those cuts expire and that is what happened. They blasted Obama for not doing away with the expiration but if he would have extended it they would have blasted him for increasing the deficit.

I would bet that you pay very little federal income tax. If you have a child you are paying $0 income tax so quit exaggerating.

Jesus, what do I have to do, submit my pay stubs and W2 forms to you people? Get over yourselves!! I pay 33% of my income to the feds and state. Then I pay all those additional taxes on just plain old living.

You've told us what you make....if you pay 33% income tax you are doing your taxes wrong.

EdsonNascimento

polaris_x said:

sooo ... what are you proposing!?? ... make the game EVEN more favourable to the rich so they will consider staying and not hiding money or leveraging loopholes? ...

Sorry, got distracted by life. Anyhoo, to wade back into it -

Simplify the tax code and stop worrying about legislating against hoggishness. Continuing to raise taxes on the rich and pretending that they don't have ways around it only further puts the middle class in a bind. Perhaps, if you make the actual tax rate less, there will be less need to "hide," avoid, etc and you can grow your base by both having less need to hide riches and more incentive to pay down the scale.

Look at it another way - If I'm rich and hoggish and want my million dollar boat, am I going to accept less net pay or just increase my pay (or hide it if you will) until my net pay matches my desired outcome? So, let's go with the latter. Now, if I can gross less to net more, I can either decrease prices on my goods or pay my staff more. Either way, the less rich and hoggish benefit (and for the truly hoggish, there's nothing you're ever going to do, so let's leave them out of this for a moment - they will move to the moon if that's what's necessary).

Now, that is a WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAYYYYYY over simplification. And true pigs are going to be true pigs - we can't legislate against it now, so what makes you think you can legislate against it later?

Now, maybe this is a scheme where you lower income tax and increase sales tax, so everyone pays the same %. Eliminate loopholes, even eliminate the child tax credit (I love it and take advantage of it, but honestly, I don't get the concept - I decide to have children, so others give me a break?)

However, my massive tax plan is - stop spending money we don't have, so you don't need to continually need to consider raising taxes. Stop entitlement programs (you need some, but they have grown so outsized that a disincentive is created - 99 weeks of unemployment? Good lord - just 1 example.)

EdsonNascimento

Gern Blansten said:

what dreams said:

Gern Blansten said:

what dreams said:

Correction: my income DID change under Obama. IT WENT DOWN. In the year the tax cuts expired, it was $120 less a month. Another year, in response to all the anti-teacher rhetoric because we're all living like Trump, the state shifted the burden of retirement contributions onto teachers -- another $50 in lowered benefits. In the year after the ACA, my school district overhauled its health benefits, so my premium increased by $30 for much shittier coverage, and next year they are implementing a $2000 deductible including office visits. So there goes that "benefit." Thanks, Obama, for all the hope and change I voted for.

excuse me...the tax cuts that you are talking about were a stimulus. That was always temporary. Obama didn't change anything...the GOP congress voted to let those cuts expire and that is what happened. They blasted Obama for not doing away with the expiration but if he would have extended it they would have blasted him for increasing the deficit.

I would bet that you pay very little federal income tax. If you have a child you are paying $0 income tax so quit exaggerating.

Jesus, what do I have to do, submit my pay stubs and W2 forms to you people? Get over yourselves!! I pay 33% of my income to the feds and state. Then I pay all those additional taxes on just plain old living.

You've told us what you make....if you pay 33% income tax you are doing your taxes wrong.

Regardless if it's 33% or 15% - the point is this is middle class. When the rich go and "hide" their income from taxes, which direction is that tax rate going to go to cover the expenses?

EdsonNascimento

gimmesometruth27 said:

Gern Blansten said:

http://www.npr.org/sections/itsallpolitics/2015/10/23/451200436/mitt-romney-finally-takes-credit-for-obamacare

keep laughing...it's the exact same plan that the repubs would have used. Romney was begging for it

thank you for pointing it out.

you would think the revisionists on here had never heard of romneycare before. :facepalm:

Facepalm all you want. The whole thing is a boon doggle, and this is the single biggest piece of shit that made me dislike Romney. He is a stupid Masshole.

I do enjoy how all your responses involve painting everyone in black and white brushes. Kind of makes you look foolish. Though it is telling that you think everyone thinks a certain way b/c they speak about certain things a certain way. The funding is irrelevant if you don't do the wrong headed method to begin with. And not to get on healthcare (though I realize I started it) - aside from being predominantly unfunded, it is a complete and utter failure at it's stated purpose and hidden agenda. It has clearly not bent the cost curve, and it clearly has not provided everyone (or even nearly everyone) coverage. And as rates continue to go up due the Actuarially correct pricing, it will be an even bigger failure. Just in time for the next Administration to clean it up. you think Obama had to clean up after Bush? Wait until the next Administration gets this pile of shit thrown at its door. Funny how some very critical components go into effect - next year.

Let's see some more Pioneer ACOs and Federally backed Exchange Health Plans go out of business and leave tax payers holding the bag.

Anyway, just an example of spending money we don't have foolishly. I'm sure the so called rich will just accept another tax hike.

polaris_x

EdsonNascimento said:

polaris_x said:

sooo ... what are you proposing!?? ... make the game EVEN more favourable to the rich so they will consider staying and not hiding money or leveraging loopholes? ...

Sorry, got distracted by life. Anyhoo, to wade back into it -

Simplify the tax code and stop worrying about legislating against hoggishness. Continuing to raise taxes on the rich and pretending that they don't have ways around it only further puts the middle class in a bind. Perhaps, if you make the actual tax rate less, there will be less need to "hide," avoid, etc and you can grow your base by both having less need to hide riches and more incentive to pay down the scale.

Look at it another way - If I'm rich and hoggish and want my million dollar boat, am I going to accept less net pay or just increase my pay (or hide it if you will) until my net pay matches my desired outcome? So, let's go with the latter. Now, if I can gross less to net more, I can either decrease prices on my goods or pay my staff more. Either way, the less rich and hoggish benefit (and for the truly hoggish, there's nothing you're ever going to do, so let's leave them out of this for a moment - they will move to the moon if that's what's necessary).

Now, that is a WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAYYYYYY over simplification. And true pigs are going to be true pigs - we can't legislate against it now, so what makes you think you can legislate against it later?

Now, maybe this is a scheme where you lower income tax and increase sales tax, so everyone pays the same %. Eliminate loopholes, even eliminate the child tax credit (I love it and take advantage of it, but honestly, I don't get the concept - I decide to have children, so others give me a break?)

However, my massive tax plan is - stop spending money we don't have, so you don't need to continually need to consider raising taxes. Stop entitlement programs (you need some, but they have grown so outsized that a disincentive is created - 99 weeks of unemployment? Good lord - just 1 example.)

sooo ... basically, because the rich are greedy assholes ... we should create a tax system that makes them happy!? ... don't take this the wrong way but I totally appreciate and understand your position here and there is reasonable logic to it ... and it makes a lot of sense in so much as we live in a world where people are shit ...

still, in the end - what are you going to be left with? ... still a populace of massive income disparity and wealth ... which ultimately leads to societal failures ...

what dreams

EdsonNascimento said:

Gern Blansten said:

what dreams said:

Gern Blansten said:

what dreams said:

Correction: my income DID change under Obama. IT WENT DOWN. In the year the tax cuts expired, it was $120 less a month. Another year, in response to all the anti-teacher rhetoric because we're all living like Trump, the state shifted the burden of retirement contributions onto teachers -- another $50 in lowered benefits. In the year after the ACA, my school district overhauled its health benefits, so my premium increased by $30 for much shittier coverage, and next year they are implementing a $2000 deductible including office visits. So there goes that "benefit." Thanks, Obama, for all the hope and change I voted for.

excuse me...the tax cuts that you are talking about were a stimulus. That was always temporary. Obama didn't change anything...the GOP congress voted to let those cuts expire and that is what happened. They blasted Obama for not doing away with the expiration but if he would have extended it they would have blasted him for increasing the deficit.

I would bet that you pay very little federal income tax. If you have a child you are paying $0 income tax so quit exaggerating.

Jesus, what do I have to do, submit my pay stubs and W2 forms to you people? Get over yourselves!! I pay 33% of my income to the feds and state. Then I pay all those additional taxes on just plain old living.

You've told us what you make....if you pay 33% income tax you are doing your taxes wrong.

Regardless if it's 33% or 15% - the point is this is middle class. When the rich go and "hide" their income from taxes, which direction is that tax rate going to go to cover the expenses?

Thank you for understanding. I totally get your point, and I agree with you completely that tax hikes on the rich ALWAYS suck the middle class dry.

In response to Gern:
I just calculated all the REQUIRED deductions coming out of my paycheck, requirements that the government decided I have to have:

Fed taxes= 18%
FICA = 6%
Medicare = 1%
State tax = 5%
Health plan and state pension =5%
Disability insurance = 1%

So, in my math, that is 39% of my paycheck GONE before I even leave the building. Don't tell me I'm doing my taxes wrong. They take it against my will.

Then I go to do my taxes in the spring. Even though the government already knows what they took from me, I have to fill out a paper to see if they get more. As I file these taxes, I see the government giving all kinds of everybody something back in the form of credits, but I don't get shit. Why? Because the government has decided certain behaviors should be rewarded over others. That is a fucked up system.

Gern Blansten

what dreams said:

EdsonNascimento said:

Gern Blansten said:

what dreams said:

Gern Blansten said:

what dreams said:

Correction: my income DID change under Obama. IT WENT DOWN. In the year the tax cuts expired, it was $120 less a month. Another year, in response to all the anti-teacher rhetoric because we're all living like Trump, the state shifted the burden of retirement contributions onto teachers -- another $50 in lowered benefits. In the year after the ACA, my school district overhauled its health benefits, so my premium increased by $30 for much shittier coverage, and next year they are implementing a $2000 deductible including office visits. So there goes that "benefit." Thanks, Obama, for all the hope and change I voted for.

excuse me...the tax cuts that you are talking about were a stimulus. That was always temporary. Obama didn't change anything...the GOP congress voted to let those cuts expire and that is what happened. They blasted Obama for not doing away with the expiration but if he would have extended it they would have blasted him for increasing the deficit.

I would bet that you pay very little federal income tax. If you have a child you are paying $0 income tax so quit exaggerating.

Jesus, what do I have to do, submit my pay stubs and W2 forms to you people? Get over yourselves!! I pay 33% of my income to the feds and state. Then I pay all those additional taxes on just plain old living.

You've told us what you make....if you pay 33% income tax you are doing your taxes wrong.

Regardless if it's 33% or 15% - the point is this is middle class. When the rich go and "hide" their income from taxes, which direction is that tax rate going to go to cover the expenses?

Thank you for understanding. I totally get your point, and I agree with you completely that tax hikes on the rich ALWAYS suck the middle class dry.

In response to Gern:
I just calculated all the REQUIRED deductions coming out of my paycheck, requirements that the government decided I have to have:

Fed taxes= 18%
FICA = 6%
Medicare = 1%
State tax = 5%
Health plan and state pension =5%
Disability insurance = 1%

So, in my math, that is 39% of my paycheck GONE before I even leave the building. Don't tell me I'm doing my taxes wrong. They take it against my will.

Then I go to do my taxes in the spring. Even though the government already knows what they took from me, I have to fill out a paper to see if they get more. As I file these taxes, I see the government giving all kinds of everybody something back in the form of credits, but I don't get shit. Why? Because the government has decided certain behaviors should be rewarded over others. That is a fucked up system.

so first off...your withholding % isn't what you are technically paying...it's what you are depositing toward what you owe. Maybe you get a refund and maybe you don't....if you don't then the withholding % is accurate.

The person I was responding to suggested that they make about $36K/year....my point was that if they filed with a child their tax would be zero. I do taxes for a living so that's a fact.

and by the way...that totals 36%

EdsonNascimento

polaris_x said:

EdsonNascimento said:

polaris_x said:

sooo ... what are you proposing!?? ... make the game EVEN more favourable to the rich so they will consider staying and not hiding money or leveraging loopholes? ...

Sorry, got distracted by life. Anyhoo, to wade back into it -

Simplify the tax code and stop worrying about legislating against hoggishness. Continuing to raise taxes on the rich and pretending that they don't have ways around it only further puts the middle class in a bind. Perhaps, if you make the actual tax rate less, there will be less need to "hide," avoid, etc and you can grow your base by both having less need to hide riches and more incentive to pay down the scale.

Look at it another way - If I'm rich and hoggish and want my million dollar boat, am I going to accept less net pay or just increase my pay (or hide it if you will) until my net pay matches my desired outcome? So, let's go with the latter. Now, if I can gross less to net more, I can either decrease prices on my goods or pay my staff more. Either way, the less rich and hoggish benefit (and for the truly hoggish, there's nothing you're ever going to do, so let's leave them out of this for a moment - they will move to the moon if that's what's necessary).

Now, that is a WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAYYYYYY over simplification. And true pigs are going to be true pigs - we can't legislate against it now, so what makes you think you can legislate against it later?

Now, maybe this is a scheme where you lower income tax and increase sales tax, so everyone pays the same %. Eliminate loopholes, even eliminate the child tax credit (I love it and take advantage of it, but honestly, I don't get the concept - I decide to have children, so others give me a break?)

However, my massive tax plan is - stop spending money we don't have, so you don't need to continually need to consider raising taxes. Stop entitlement programs (you need some, but they have grown so outsized that a disincentive is created - 99 weeks of unemployment? Good lord - just 1 example.)

sooo ... basically, because the rich are greedy assholes ... we should create a tax system that makes them happy!? ... don't take this the wrong way but I totally appreciate and understand your position here and there is reasonable logic to it ... and it makes a lot of sense in so much as we live in a world where people are shit ...

still, in the end - what are you going to be left with? ... still a populace of massive income disparity and wealth ... which ultimately leads to societal failures ...

Well, you could read it that way. Honestly, I don't mind a progressive tax. But, at some point you have to realize there are actually diminishing returns. And either way, the Middle Class has to bear the brunt. You cannot simply continue to spend money you don't have. And anticipating the prospects of taxing the rich more is foolhardy at best. We all seem to be agreeing that the truly rich have the means and capability to do what they can to avoid at least a portion of taxes.

We should also simplify things to make enforcement easier (not easy, but easier). We would spend more trying to chase those dollars down than they would net us. The last thing we need is more bureaucracy.

So, I'm not in fact saying - make a system that makes anyone happy (I mean, really, c'mon). But, what I am saying is some prudent, intelligent tax code thinking (which I will admit is beyond me) is wiser than simply spending and crying for higher taxes on the truly rich that end up impacting the middle class more b/c someone has to pay at least the part of the bill the gov't intends on paying.

Gern Blansten

EdsonNascimento said:

polaris_x said:

EdsonNascimento said:

polaris_x said:

sooo ... what are you proposing!?? ... make the game EVEN more favourable to the rich so they will consider staying and not hiding money or leveraging loopholes? ...

Sorry, got distracted by life. Anyhoo, to wade back into it -

Simplify the tax code and stop worrying about legislating against hoggishness. Continuing to raise taxes on the rich and pretending that they don't have ways around it only further puts the middle class in a bind. Perhaps, if you make the actual tax rate less, there will be less need to "hide," avoid, etc and you can grow your base by both having less need to hide riches and more incentive to pay down the scale.

Look at it another way - If I'm rich and hoggish and want my million dollar boat, am I going to accept less net pay or just increase my pay (or hide it if you will) until my net pay matches my desired outcome? So, let's go with the latter. Now, if I can gross less to net more, I can either decrease prices on my goods or pay my staff more. Either way, the less rich and hoggish benefit (and for the truly hoggish, there's nothing you're ever going to do, so let's leave them out of this for a moment - they will move to the moon if that's what's necessary).

Now, that is a WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAYYYYYY over simplification. And true pigs are going to be true pigs - we can't legislate against it now, so what makes you think you can legislate against it later?

Now, maybe this is a scheme where you lower income tax and increase sales tax, so everyone pays the same %. Eliminate loopholes, even eliminate the child tax credit (I love it and take advantage of it, but honestly, I don't get the concept - I decide to have children, so others give me a break?)

However, my massive tax plan is - stop spending money we don't have, so you don't need to continually need to consider raising taxes. Stop entitlement programs (you need some, but they have grown so outsized that a disincentive is created - 99 weeks of unemployment? Good lord - just 1 example.)

sooo ... basically, because the rich are greedy assholes ... we should create a tax system that makes them happy!? ... don't take this the wrong way but I totally appreciate and understand your position here and there is reasonable logic to it ... and it makes a lot of sense in so much as we live in a world where people are shit ...

still, in the end - what are you going to be left with? ... still a populace of massive income disparity and wealth ... which ultimately leads to societal failures ...

Well, you could read it that way. Honestly, I don't mind a progressive tax. But, at some point you have to realize there are actually diminishing returns. And either way, the Middle Class has to bear the brunt. You cannot simply continue to spend money you don't have. And anticipating the prospects of taxing the rich more is foolhardy at best. We all seem to be agreeing that the truly rich have the means and capability to do what they can to avoid at least a portion of taxes.

We should also simplify things to make enforcement easier (not easy, but easier). We would spend more trying to chase those dollars down than they would net us. The last thing we need is more bureaucracy.

So, I'm not in fact saying - make a system that makes anyone happy (I mean, really, c'mon). But, what I am saying is some prudent, intelligent tax code thinking (which I will admit is beyond me) is wiser than simply spending and crying for higher taxes on the truly rich that end up impacting the middle class more b/c someone has to pay at least the part of the bill the gov't intends on paying.

that's really not true....most of the rich are paid just like you are via W-2