Research On Alcoholism Refutes The Success of the 12 Step Program (AA)
HughFreakingDillon
Winnipeg Posts: 39,473
very long read, but very interesting.....
http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/04/the-irrationality-of-alcoholics-anonymous/386255/?utm_source=rstw
http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/04/the-irrationality-of-alcoholics-anonymous/386255/?utm_source=rstw
By The Time They Figure Out What Went Wrong, We'll Be Sitting On A Beach, Earning Twenty Percent.
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A friend who had been a chemical dependency counselor told me many years ago that 12 step groups weren't for everyone. I respect that and hope that alternative treatment methods are developed and gain acceptance. But I'm not going to knock AA, which has kept my sister-in-law sober for 15 years. The person she is now is light years from who she was when she drank. My impression is that people who don't favor 12 step groups seem to think such groups are completely ineffective. I don't think it's such an either/or situation."The stars are all connected to the brain."0
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Will check back._____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
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another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '140 -
I don't think I could do it (I don't need it, fortunately, but I'm just saying IF I did...). I'm an Atheist. Not just a passive one, either. The whole god factor in AA (or whatever you can think of to replace god, so they say) wouldn't fly for me. I wouldn't even be able to tolerate that whole side of it. The whole 'give yourself to a higher power' factor. I know they have sort of attempted to work around this issue for those who don't go for religion by trying to say it's "spiritual, not religious", but I think they fail at doing that.
I do, however, think it's helpful to get together with others who understand what you're going through. Having an understanding support system without judgment seems like it would be very important.With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata0 -
the point of the article, from what I got from it, was not knocking AA per say, except maybe on the point that they claim to have a 75% success rate, which is apparently a massive overstatement. as it does seem to work for some. but it fails many, many more. mainly because it was developed before we knew what we know now about addiction and how to handle it. if it works for someone, I say hey, more power to them. but people have to know there are alternatives out there, alternatives that are science-, not faith-, based.Who Princess said:A friend who had been a chemical dependency counselor told me many years ago that 12 step groups weren't for everyone. I respect that and hope that alternative treatment methods are developed and gain acceptance. But I'm not going to knock AA, which has kept my sister-in-law sober for 15 years. The person she is now is light years from who she was when she drank. My impression is that people who don't favor 12 step groups seem to think such groups are completely ineffective. I don't think it's such an either/or situation.
By The Time They Figure Out What Went Wrong, We'll Be Sitting On A Beach, Earning Twenty Percent.0 -
the other issue, as pointed out in the article, is that no one affiliated with AA has any formal training in counselling. it is entirely based on experience. can you imagine going to a psychologist whose plaque on the wall said "crazy for 15 years, but now I'm good" instead of a diploma? that wouldn't fly in any other medium.PJ_Soul said:I don't think I could do it (I don't need it, fortunately, but I'm just saying IF I did...). I'm an Atheist. Not just a passive one, either. The whole god factor in AA (or whatever you can think of to replace god, so they say) wouldn't fly for me. I wouldn't even be able to tolerate that whole side of it. The whole 'give yourself to a higher power' factor. I know they have sort of attempted to work around this issue for those who don't go for religion by trying to say it's "spiritual, not religious", but I think they fail at doing that.
I do, however, think it's helpful to get together with others who understand what you're going through. Having an understanding support system without judgment seems like it would be very important.
support groups are great. they are invaluable. but when you are, as the article said, dealing with the law as well and people's livelihoods, these people need to be represented by those who have knowledge on the subject, not just personal experience. that's tantamount to hearsay.By The Time They Figure Out What Went Wrong, We'll Be Sitting On A Beach, Earning Twenty Percent.0 -
HughFreakingDillon said:
can you imagine going to a psychologist whose plaque on the wall said "crazy for 15 years, but now I'm good" instead of a diploma?
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata0 -
I agree but people who have faith-based beliefs will always start with the option of faith and will continue on that route guided by faith.HughFreakingDillon said:
the point of the article, from what I got from it, was not knocking AA per say, except maybe on the point that they claim to have a 75% success rate, which is apparently a massive overstatement. as it does seem to work for some. but it fails many, many more. mainly because it was developed before we knew what we know now about addiction and how to handle it. if it works for someone, I say hey, more power to them. but people have to know there are alternatives out there, alternatives that are science-, not faith-, based.
If the program helps in someway for them to give up their ghost fine. But I don't remember what step it is that you have to apologize to people you have wronged. If you apologize for being a bully to someone in school way back when you are looking for a punch to the face as an adult.
Post edited by PJfanwillneverleave1 on0 -
Who here has direct experience with AA or any other 12 step program which was based off AA?
I read this article back when it was first published. Soem of its premises are wrong and I need to read it again to give both my opinion and the facts of my experince while also sharing what I believe is the truth of where i see the error in the article._____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '140 -
For a start I'd like to know what they define as faith based._____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '140 -
For starters.mickeyrat said:For a start I'd like to know what they define as faith based.
http://www.aa.org/assets/en_US/smf-121_en.pdf
http://www.aa.org/assets/en_US/smf-122_en.pdfPost edited by PJfanwillneverleave1 on0 -
Think they have their history a little wrong here, At one time there was a push with Bill W to open and run a string of treatment centers. That was shut down by the membership at the time. This Mann person ended up being a chief driver through his actions of what became the 12 traditions(which are guiding principles for AA furnctionality)
Given the anonymous nature of the program i.e. No membership lists official or otherwise , its all speculation as to how many members there are or even the number of groups who call themselves an AA meeting. Unless they choose to register the meeting with the new york main office it would stay a locally known group.
AA has no opinion on what it considers "outside" issues , as it became clear with Mann that it put what did work for some in jeopardy but in the text it does encourgae going to those professionals trained in xy or z. Neither does it claim to be the only thing out there. It was however the only known thing that seemed to work for the hopelessly alcoholic for an awful long time. In fact it makes clear that what was found to work in AA was only a beginning and a very small drop in a vast sea.
Now something that bugs me personally in the rooms is folks who state without question as AA is the only way. Its just not true and the text doesnt make that claim. It may be that AA is the only way for them ( I hold this position), but often that clarifier is left off. Knowing what alcoholism and drug addiction did to stunt my "growth" as a human being and the hell of active addiction, my fervent wish is for the addict to find what works for them. But that help , whatever it may be , requires a measure of discipline regardless of method.
So AA claims to only be able to help those who deem themselves hopeless in the face of alcohol. I have so much more to say but think I should see if you guys have questions that I can answer._____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '140 -
So what exactly is your point? That doesnt proscribe a particular religious faith tradition.PJfanwillneverleave1 said:
The steps chart you showed is not much more than an outline. The meat of the program , the steps themselves, are found within the text of the book.
I would encouage you to go to aa.org and look for the chapter 4 pdf. It explains in detail just how it is that aa can be applied by the athiest or agnostic.
Try not to get to hung up on that 3 letter word. Because truely its the action taken by the individual that has the most effect on staying stopped.
As for the traditions, the group conscience is the collective voice of that group.Post edited by mickeyrat on_____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '140 -
That's like saying read the bible but don't get hung up on the god stuff.mickeyrat said:
So what exactly is your point?
The steps chart you showed is not much more than an outline. The meat of the program , the steps themselves, are found within the text of the book.
I would encouage you to go to aa.org and look for the chapter 4 pdf. It explains in detail just how it is that aa can be applied by the athiest or agnostic.
Try not to get to hung up on that 3 letter word. Because truely its the action taken by the individual that has the most effect on staying stopped.
As for the traditions, the group conscience is the collective voice of that group.0 -
Go read chapter 4.PJfanwillneverleave1 said:
That's like saying read the bible but don't get hung up on the god stuff.
http://www.aa.org/assets/en_US/en_bigbook_chapt4.pdf_____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '140 -
On pg 47 of that pdf it saysmickeyrat said:
"When, therefore, we speak to you of god, we mean your own conception of god"
AA is faith based.0 -
How then are you defining that faith? what does that statement mean to you? That its religious in nature? Because thats the usual definition.PJfanwillneverleave1 said:
On pg 47 of that pdf it says
"When, therefore, we speak to you of god, we mean your own conception of god"
AA is faith based.
I walked into a room of people, listen to thwem tell their story and that they found a way to stay sober, when I could not. I took it on faith that what would work for them could work for me._____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '140 -
It's great that this program worked for you.mickeyrat said:
How then are you defining that faith? what does that statement mean to you? That its religious in nature? Because thats the usual definition.
I walked into a room of people, listen to thwem tell their story and that they found a way to stay sober, when I could not. I took it on faith that what would work for them could work for me.
And I encourage all programs that seek to help others.
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I will wake up to 9 years 11 months free from drugs and alcohol tomorrow morning through the 12 steps of alcoholics anonymous.
You are absolutely welcome to any opinion you have._____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '140 -
Awesome.mickeyrat said:I will wake up to 9 years 11 months free from drugs and alcohol tomorrow morning through the 12 steps of alcoholics anonymous.
You are absolutely welcome to any opinion you have.
It worked for you and I am sure it will work for many others.0 -
It most certainly will. For those I personally come into contact with , I will tell them what I did and how I did it, and they are then free to choose for themselves. Whatever they choose for themselves will get my support and encouragement. If they drank and/or used like I did , I dont care what method they choose, I only want for them to know a freedom such as I have now.PJfanwillneverleave1 said:_____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '140
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