Iran Deal, the reset..... and halt

mickeyrat · April 2015

BS44325 said:

i_lov_it said:
Well just watching the news and John Kerry said that this deal is to make the World safer.
All while Iran secures missle components

http://freebeacon.com/national-security/north-korea-transfers-missile-goods-to-iran-during-nuclear-talks/

Umm, reports are that russia will sell sell missle tech to Iran

mickeyrat · April 2015

You know, even if congress succedes in blocking U.S involvement in the deal and keeps sanctions in place on our end , that doesn't stop the rest of the world in saying fuck you congress and lifting their end of things.

BS44325 · April 2015

mickeyrat said:

BS44325 said:

i_lov_it said:
Well just watching the news and John Kerry said that this deal is to make the World safer.
All while Iran secures missle components

http://freebeacon.com/national-security/north-korea-transfers-missile-goods-to-iran-during-nuclear-talks/
Umm, reports are that russia will sell sell missle tech to Iran

Yup. Russia as well. They delayed that sale as part of the "reset" but apparently the reset is over.

rgambs · April 2015

Sounds like they are having success in moving toward "the bomb" (BS coined it and I like it, succinct and potent) without the deal, so why is it bad again??

Jason P · April 2015

Halifax2TheMax said:

No, it doesn't. They don't despise western culture. Some conservatives in their clerical leadership might despise western culture just as some conservatives here would like to, "take their country back." Iran has one of the youngest demographics in the developing world. A younger generation hungry for western pop cultural and increased ties and relations with the west. The aging clerics realize they need the economy back and they need to appeal to and satisfy their up and coming generation. Otherwise, they're going to have major domestic unrest. Have you ever met anyone from Iran? Had a conversation with them? Been to Iran or spoken with someone who has traveled there? Iranians don't hate the US. The average Iranian would like for nothing more than to have peace between our countries and decent relations. These are the folks Obama is trying to appeal to and having a 10 year framework to appeal further and build mutual trust is what he's trying to accomplish. As BB pointed out, after we fucked them from 1954-1979, is it any wonder government directed elements parade around chanting death to America? I don't know where Iran is heavily influencing culture or trying to strong arm nations into a similar governing systems nor do I see them acting superior. Superior where and to who? Very unlike this country. News alert, not everyone wants to live under a western democratic capitalist system.

I agree that the clerics are discussing the negotiations are doing this because the sanctions are doing exactly as intended and are empowering the younger generation to put pressure on them. If Obama cuts a deal, they are fucked and the clerics retain power. They get to keep their nuclear program and resume their oppression. And Obama gets to look like a humanitarian.

Ironic, don't ya think?

I've never been to Iran, have you? I don't claim to be an expert. If Iran had freedom of press, I may be able to determine a more accurate picture of their society, but they don't, so I can't.

And perhaps there is an element of their society that doesn't embrace Western culture, but I'm sure that the Iranian feminist, LGBT, and even lovers of dancing and music do.

Also, I've railed about this within the American political landscape for years. 10 year plans are complete bullshit. Every politician, no matter their affiliation, loves the the ten year promise. It's because their is no accountability in a 10 year plan. It gives them 10 years to make an excuse in case the rare event that someone remembers what they promised 10 years ago.

hedonist · April 2015

benjs said:

hedonist said:
My mother is Persian, and given that all but less than a handful of my German father's relatives lived through the Holocaust, my mom's side - huge family between here in LA, in NY and in London - and that Iranian culture - have been a constant.

Definitely for better and worse. But whatever - part of me.

We spent a summer in Tehran before the revolution and while it was so beautifully welcoming and sensual, warm and colorful (bless the food but fuck the traffic!), there was also a sense of oppression, of that have-to-look-around and check yourself feeling. Not in the usual (common) sense, but in a you-might-be-seriously-fucked-with sense.

Have mentioned before about having grown men at a construction site throwing stones at my physically-developed but eleven-year-old self. I will never forget it, their anger - such anger; how within whatever tenet can you reconcile your actions and conscience? - toward a girl wearing a tube top because it was hot.

Fuck that, and fuck them. You don't do that. You don't act like that.

And within my own family, I see prejudice that breaks my heart. Not necessarily an anti-US stance - the first generation came here in the late 40s with pretty much nothing and built businesses, families, communities, lives. But there is much close-mindedness in many veins. Traditions and lifestyles to be upheld, and attempts - from the older generation - to shame those who value choice and forging their / our own paths.

All that said, I wouldn't be myself without all of that, good, bad or within the spectrum.

Didn't intend to so ramble on! Just wanted to give my perspective.
This is fascinating to hear about. Thanks for the insight, Hedonist.

I'll be honest: the close-mindedness, the attachment to old-age traditions and values, the negative spin on choice and change - these are constants in a vast amount of different sects.

It happens in Judaism (and I would assume many other religions): why do we have derogative terms for "non-Jews"? Why has it been deemed unacceptable by many Jewish communities to not advocate for blind acceptance of any Israeli actions?
It happens in Canadian culture: why with a church/state division do we still call out to a god to keep our land glorious and free? Why is it still illegal to drag a dead horse down Yonge Street in Toronto on a Sunday?
It happened amongst white supremacists: Slave owners certainly would've frowned on promoting the black liberation movement.

Traditions, by virtue of what they are, represent older-time mentalities, which are (at least sometimes) not of proper 'today' mindset, omitting concepts such as equality, righteousness, and justice. Shame and guilt have always been present to help traditions maintain their places in peoples' lives.

Are you really in your early/mid-20s? You have a wise - and openminded but realistic - perspective.

Yes, same as you are - my family is Jewish and I've seen hypocrisy and double standards in both the sense of fervency and action. Actually from the younger generation too. Agreed it's among most if not all religions (hell, I do it myself at times).

And Jason, this - And perhaps there is an element of their society that doesn't embrace Western culture, but I'm sure that the Iranian feminist, LGBT, and even lovers of dancing and music do.

Absolutely.

benjs · April 2015

hedonist said:

benjs said:

hedonist said:
My mother is Persian, and given that all but less than a handful of my German father's relatives lived through the Holocaust, my mom's side - huge family between here in LA, in NY and in London - and that Iranian culture - have been a constant.

Definitely for better and worse. But whatever - part of me.

We spent a summer in Tehran before the revolution and while it was so beautifully welcoming and sensual, warm and colorful (bless the food but fuck the traffic!), there was also a sense of oppression, of that have-to-look-around and check yourself feeling. Not in the usual (common) sense, but in a you-might-be-seriously-fucked-with sense.

Have mentioned before about having grown men at a construction site throwing stones at my physically-developed but eleven-year-old self. I will never forget it, their anger - such anger; how within whatever tenet can you reconcile your actions and conscience? - toward a girl wearing a tube top because it was hot.

Fuck that, and fuck them. You don't do that. You don't act like that.

And within my own family, I see prejudice that breaks my heart. Not necessarily an anti-US stance - the first generation came here in the late 40s with pretty much nothing and built businesses, families, communities, lives. But there is much close-mindedness in many veins. Traditions and lifestyles to be upheld, and attempts - from the older generation - to shame those who value choice and forging their / our own paths.

All that said, I wouldn't be myself without all of that, good, bad or within the spectrum.

Didn't intend to so ramble on! Just wanted to give my perspective.
This is fascinating to hear about. Thanks for the insight, Hedonist.

I'll be honest: the close-mindedness, the attachment to old-age traditions and values, the negative spin on choice and change - these are constants in a vast amount of different sects.

It happens in Judaism (and I would assume many other religions): why do we have derogative terms for "non-Jews"? Why has it been deemed unacceptable by many Jewish communities to not advocate for blind acceptance of any Israeli actions?
It happens in Canadian culture: why with a church/state division do we still call out to a god to keep our land glorious and free? Why is it still illegal to drag a dead horse down Yonge Street in Toronto on a Sunday?
It happened amongst white supremacists: Slave owners certainly would've frowned on promoting the black liberation movement.

Traditions, by virtue of what they are, represent older-time mentalities, which are (at least sometimes) not of proper 'today' mindset, omitting concepts such as equality, righteousness, and justice. Shame and guilt have always been present to help traditions maintain their places in peoples' lives.
Are you really in your early/mid-20s? You have a wise - and openminded but realistic - perspective.

Yes, same as you are - my family is Jewish and I've seen hypocrisy and double standards in both the sense of fervency and action. Actually from the younger generation too. Agreed it's among most if not all religions (hell, I do it myself at times).

And Jason, this - And perhaps there is an element of their society that doesn't embrace Western culture, but I'm sure that the Iranian feminist, LGBT, and even lovers of dancing and music do.

Absolutely.

Thanks Hedonist, but I only developed my voice thanks to communities like this one with inspiring writers like yourself and many others, as well as a litany of fantastic teachers throughout my lifetime (both within and outside of the education system). I can only try my best to be like those fine folks who've inspired me. I'm also basically an old man at heart - I'm Benjamin Buttoning this life, so since I'm 25 technically, I think I'm going on 75 or so by now

I agree about the younger generation of Jews - I'm reaching the age where my friends have mostly developed a position on political/socioeconomic spectrums, and there seems to be a correlation between the certainty with which they speak, and the religious background they possess. Even my friends with politically-outspoken parents seem to be less likely to be politically involved than their counterparts who do come from religion. I'm guilty of this too, though I went the opposite direction: the rhetoric on Judaism and Israel dissuaded me from blind acceptance of either.

I also totally agree about Jason's comment. I wouldn't necessarily refer to America as the 'land of the free', but it is less oppressed and more accepting than many nations. I'd like to see the nations of the world equalized at that level, before we call for raising the bar across the board.

callen · April 2015

BS44325 said:
I don't even know what thread this goes under anymore but the Palestinian Authority is now asking for Saudi help in targeting Hamas which they see as being backed by Iran. This is the greater war that is underway and the west should be backing the PA in crushing Hamas and preventing further Iranian expansionism. Any deal needs to be realistic about Iranian ambitions in the region.

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2015/04/14/hamas-pa-could-be-next-pawns-in-saudi-iranian-proxy-war/

(Fox News...so sorry...I know how it offends)

Fox doesn't offend. Wrong word.

Fox is simply corporate mouthpiece that influences many to do their work. Sickens better word.

callen · April 2015

BS44325 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

Jason P said:
And the theory of exceptionalism doesn't apply to Iran? A country that despises Western culture and influence and see themselves as superior?

Iran, according to wiki, Last Week with Jon Oliver, and other esteemed news sources chants "Death to America" after weekly Friday prayers (T.G.I.F!) and other public events. They have been doing this on a regular basis for all of my life.

So while we have a pity party over how we Americans are oppressive fucks, do any of us really think Iran would sign and agree to any deal outside of us bowing for forgiveness while lifting all sanctions and promising to send them a bunch of Doritos and dip as repercussions? Do you really think we will be smoking peace pipes and chanting kumbaya if an agreement is signed?

Iran's hard liners make the neocons look like a bunch of Girl Scouts.
No, it doesn't. They don't despise western culture. Some conservatives in their clerical leadership might despise western culture just as some conservatives here would like to, "take their country back." Iran has one of the youngest demographics in the developing world. A younger generation hungry for western pop cultural and increased ties and relations with the west. The aging clerics realize they need the economy back and they need to appeal to and satisfy their up and coming generation. Otherwise, they're going to have major domestic unrest. Have you ever met anyone from Iran? Had a conversation with them? Been to Iran or spoken with someone who has traveled there? Iranians don't hate the US. The average Iranian would like for nothing more than to have peace between our countries and decent relations. These are the folks Obama is trying to appeal to and having a 10 year framework to appeal further and build mutual trust is what he's trying to accomplish. As BB pointed out, after we fucked them from 1954-1979, is it any wonder government directed elements parade around chanting death to America? I don't know where Iran is heavily influencing culture or trying to strong arm nations into a similar governing systems nor do I see them acting superior. Superior where and to who? Very unlike this country. News alert, not everyone wants to live under a western democratic capitalist system.

Nixon went to China, Reagan met with Gorbachev, Clinton opened relations with Vietnam and sent former Senator Mitchell to Ireland. All of these were much more preferable than "bombing", "going to war" or being isolationist. Difficult work ahead? Sure. Impossible? No. Going to war is easy and a sign of weakness and should be considered only as a last resort. You have to start somewhere and as john Lennon once said, "give peace a chance." Something I'm willing to try before embarking on another war of choice.

And how do you describe John Bolton who wrote an op-ed published in the NYT calling for the bombing of Iran because, "it's the only thing they understand?" Or McCain singing bomb, bomb, bomb Iran? Or, well the Bush administration that invaded Iraq, killing 4000+ Americans and upwards of a million Iraqis? Girl Scouts? Hardly.

And my guess on BS, he's heavily invested in oil and defense industry stocks. Turn off the war drums and wait to see what happens around June 30th when the details of the framework agreement are supposed to be codified into a substantive agreement that both sides take back to their governments for approval.
Ha! I'm heavily invested in oil and defense industry stocks now? Yesterday I was a lobbyist/agent of Israel? The inability for some of you to hear an alternate opinion is staggering. Alternative music...good. Alternative opinion...bad.

Some hear someone that is scared of the boogey man and falls for one sided argument while calling for war. Become a mercenary and take your butt and fight the Evildoers. Also send 30% of your income to me reimbursing my tax dollars spent on war as the US taxpayer is paying for this shit.

callen · April 2015

BS44325 said:

i_lov_it said:
Well just watching the news and John Kerry said that this deal is to make the World safer.
All while Iran secures missle components

http://freebeacon.com/national-security/north-korea-transfers-missile-goods-to-iran-during-nuclear-talks/

So would you if you were Iran.

badbrains · April 2015

callen said:

BS44325 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

Jason P said:
And the theory of exceptionalism doesn't apply to Iran? A country that despises Western culture and influence and see themselves as superior?

Iran, according to wiki, Last Week with Jon Oliver, and other esteemed news sources chants "Death to America" after weekly Friday prayers (T.G.I.F!) and other public events. They have been doing this on a regular basis for all of my life.

So while we have a pity party over how we Americans are oppressive fucks, do any of us really think Iran would sign and agree to any deal outside of us bowing for forgiveness while lifting all sanctions and promising to send them a bunch of Doritos and dip as repercussions? Do you really think we will be smoking peace pipes and chanting kumbaya if an agreement is signed?

Iran's hard liners make the neocons look like a bunch of Girl Scouts.
No, it doesn't. They don't despise western culture. Some conservatives in their clerical leadership might despise western culture just as some conservatives here would like to, "take their country back." Iran has one of the youngest demographics in the developing world. A younger generation hungry for western pop cultural and increased ties and relations with the west. The aging clerics realize they need the economy back and they need to appeal to and satisfy their up and coming generation. Otherwise, they're going to have major domestic unrest. Have you ever met anyone from Iran? Had a conversation with them? Been to Iran or spoken with someone who has traveled there? Iranians don't hate the US. The average Iranian would like for nothing more than to have peace between our countries and decent relations. These are the folks Obama is trying to appeal to and having a 10 year framework to appeal further and build mutual trust is what he's trying to accomplish. As BB pointed out, after we fucked them from 1954-1979, is it any wonder government directed elements parade around chanting death to America? I don't know where Iran is heavily influencing culture or trying to strong arm nations into a similar governing systems nor do I see them acting superior. Superior where and to who? Very unlike this country. News alert, not everyone wants to live under a western democratic capitalist system.

Nixon went to China, Reagan met with Gorbachev, Clinton opened relations with Vietnam and sent former Senator Mitchell to Ireland. All of these were much more preferable than "bombing", "going to war" or being isolationist. Difficult work ahead? Sure. Impossible? No. Going to war is easy and a sign of weakness and should be considered only as a last resort. You have to start somewhere and as john Lennon once said, "give peace a chance." Something I'm willing to try before embarking on another war of choice.

And how do you describe John Bolton who wrote an op-ed published in the NYT calling for the bombing of Iran because, "it's the only thing they understand?" Or McCain singing bomb, bomb, bomb Iran? Or, well the Bush administration that invaded Iraq, killing 4000+ Americans and upwards of a million Iraqis? Girl Scouts? Hardly.

And my guess on BS, he's heavily invested in oil and defense industry stocks. Turn off the war drums and wait to see what happens around June 30th when the details of the framework agreement are supposed to be codified into a substantive agreement that both sides take back to their governments for approval.
Ha! I'm heavily invested in oil and defense industry stocks now? Yesterday I was a lobbyist/agent of Israel? The inability for some of you to hear an alternate opinion is staggering. Alternative music...good. Alternative opinion...bad.
Some hear someone that is scared of the boogey man and falls for one sided argument while calling for war. Become a mercenary and take your butt and fight the Evildoers. Also send 30% of your income to me reimbursing my tax dollars spent on war as the US taxpayer is paying for this shit.

I've been telling him to enlist or enlist his kids, but of course he hides behind his computer and the safety of his home IN Canada.

BS44325 · April 2015

callen said:

BS44325 said:
I don't even know what thread this goes under anymore but the Palestinian Authority is now asking for Saudi help in targeting Hamas which they see as being backed by Iran. This is the greater war that is underway and the west should be backing the PA in crushing Hamas and preventing further Iranian expansionism. Any deal needs to be realistic about Iranian ambitions in the region.

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2015/04/14/hamas-pa-could-be-next-pawns-in-saudi-iranian-proxy-war/

(Fox News...so sorry...I know how it offends)
Fox doesn't offend. Wrong word.

Fox is simply corporate mouthpiece that influences many to do their work. Sickens better word.

So Fox is now a corporate mouthpiece for the Palestinian Authority?

BS44325 · April 2015

callen said:

BS44325 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

Jason P said:
And the theory of exceptionalism doesn't apply to Iran? A country that despises Western culture and influence and see themselves as superior?

Iran, according to wiki, Last Week with Jon Oliver, and other esteemed news sources chants "Death to America" after weekly Friday prayers (T.G.I.F!) and other public events. They have been doing this on a regular basis for all of my life.

So while we have a pity party over how we Americans are oppressive fucks, do any of us really think Iran would sign and agree to any deal outside of us bowing for forgiveness while lifting all sanctions and promising to send them a bunch of Doritos and dip as repercussions? Do you really think we will be smoking peace pipes and chanting kumbaya if an agreement is signed?

Iran's hard liners make the neocons look like a bunch of Girl Scouts.
No, it doesn't. They don't despise western culture. Some conservatives in their clerical leadership might despise western culture just as some conservatives here would like to, "take their country back." Iran has one of the youngest demographics in the developing world. A younger generation hungry for western pop cultural and increased ties and relations with the west. The aging clerics realize they need the economy back and they need to appeal to and satisfy their up and coming generation. Otherwise, they're going to have major domestic unrest. Have you ever met anyone from Iran? Had a conversation with them? Been to Iran or spoken with someone who has traveled there? Iranians don't hate the US. The average Iranian would like for nothing more than to have peace between our countries and decent relations. These are the folks Obama is trying to appeal to and having a 10 year framework to appeal further and build mutual trust is what he's trying to accomplish. As BB pointed out, after we fucked them from 1954-1979, is it any wonder government directed elements parade around chanting death to America? I don't know where Iran is heavily influencing culture or trying to strong arm nations into a similar governing systems nor do I see them acting superior. Superior where and to who? Very unlike this country. News alert, not everyone wants to live under a western democratic capitalist system.

Nixon went to China, Reagan met with Gorbachev, Clinton opened relations with Vietnam and sent former Senator Mitchell to Ireland. All of these were much more preferable than "bombing", "going to war" or being isolationist. Difficult work ahead? Sure. Impossible? No. Going to war is easy and a sign of weakness and should be considered only as a last resort. You have to start somewhere and as john Lennon once said, "give peace a chance." Something I'm willing to try before embarking on another war of choice.

And how do you describe John Bolton who wrote an op-ed published in the NYT calling for the bombing of Iran because, "it's the only thing they understand?" Or McCain singing bomb, bomb, bomb Iran? Or, well the Bush administration that invaded Iraq, killing 4000+ Americans and upwards of a million Iraqis? Girl Scouts? Hardly.

And my guess on BS, he's heavily invested in oil and defense industry stocks. Turn off the war drums and wait to see what happens around June 30th when the details of the framework agreement are supposed to be codified into a substantive agreement that both sides take back to their governments for approval.
Ha! I'm heavily invested in oil and defense industry stocks now? Yesterday I was a lobbyist/agent of Israel? The inability for some of you to hear an alternate opinion is staggering. Alternative music...good. Alternative opinion...bad.
Some hear someone that is scared of the boogey man and falls for one sided argument while calling for war. Become a mercenary and take your butt and fight the Evildoers. Also send 30% of your income to me reimbursing my tax dollars spent on war as the US taxpayer is paying for this shit.

Your country invaded Iraq and then proceeded to fuck it up for the rest of the world. My country is there now doing our best with our limited resources to help the local forces clean up some of the mess you left behind. Whether or not you were for the war your country started it and should have the guts to see it through. As Colin Powell said "If you break it you buy it". Canada has troops in Ukraine, Afghanistan, Iraq and we're conducting bombing runs over Syria...these deployments are barely controversial up here. Maybe you should be thanking us for doing the jobs that Americans just won't do.

dignin · April 2015

BS44325 said:

callen said:

BS44325 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

Jason P said:
And the theory of exceptionalism doesn't apply to Iran? A country that despises Western culture and influence and see themselves as superior?

Iran, according to wiki, Last Week with Jon Oliver, and other esteemed news sources chants "Death to America" after weekly Friday prayers (T.G.I.F!) and other public events. They have been doing this on a regular basis for all of my life.

So while we have a pity party over how we Americans are oppressive fucks, do any of us really think Iran would sign and agree to any deal outside of us bowing for forgiveness while lifting all sanctions and promising to send them a bunch of Doritos and dip as repercussions? Do you really think we will be smoking peace pipes and chanting kumbaya if an agreement is signed?

Iran's hard liners make the neocons look like a bunch of Girl Scouts.
No, it doesn't. They don't despise western culture. Some conservatives in their clerical leadership might despise western culture just as some conservatives here would like to, "take their country back." Iran has one of the youngest demographics in the developing world. A younger generation hungry for western pop cultural and increased ties and relations with the west. The aging clerics realize they need the economy back and they need to appeal to and satisfy their up and coming generation. Otherwise, they're going to have major domestic unrest. Have you ever met anyone from Iran? Had a conversation with them? Been to Iran or spoken with someone who has traveled there? Iranians don't hate the US. The average Iranian would like for nothing more than to have peace between our countries and decent relations. These are the folks Obama is trying to appeal to and having a 10 year framework to appeal further and build mutual trust is what he's trying to accomplish. As BB pointed out, after we fucked them from 1954-1979, is it any wonder government directed elements parade around chanting death to America? I don't know where Iran is heavily influencing culture or trying to strong arm nations into a similar governing systems nor do I see them acting superior. Superior where and to who? Very unlike this country. News alert, not everyone wants to live under a western democratic capitalist system.

Nixon went to China, Reagan met with Gorbachev, Clinton opened relations with Vietnam and sent former Senator Mitchell to Ireland. All of these were much more preferable than "bombing", "going to war" or being isolationist. Difficult work ahead? Sure. Impossible? No. Going to war is easy and a sign of weakness and should be considered only as a last resort. You have to start somewhere and as john Lennon once said, "give peace a chance." Something I'm willing to try before embarking on another war of choice.

And how do you describe John Bolton who wrote an op-ed published in the NYT calling for the bombing of Iran because, "it's the only thing they understand?" Or McCain singing bomb, bomb, bomb Iran? Or, well the Bush administration that invaded Iraq, killing 4000+ Americans and upwards of a million Iraqis? Girl Scouts? Hardly.

And my guess on BS, he's heavily invested in oil and defense industry stocks. Turn off the war drums and wait to see what happens around June 30th when the details of the framework agreement are supposed to be codified into a substantive agreement that both sides take back to their governments for approval.
Ha! I'm heavily invested in oil and defense industry stocks now? Yesterday I was a lobbyist/agent of Israel? The inability for some of you to hear an alternate opinion is staggering. Alternative music...good. Alternative opinion...bad.
Some hear someone that is scared of the boogey man and falls for one sided argument while calling for war. Become a mercenary and take your butt and fight the Evildoers. Also send 30% of your income to me reimbursing my tax dollars spent on war as the US taxpayer is paying for this shit.
Your country invaded Iraq and then proceeded to fuck it up for the rest of the world. My country is there now doing our best with our limited resources to help the local forces clean up some of the mess you left behind. Whether or not you were for the war your country started it and should have the guts to see it through. As Colin Powell said "If you break it you buy it". Canada has troops in Ukraine, Afghanistan, Iraq and we're conducting bombing runs over Syria...these deployments are barely controversial up here. Maybe you should be thanking us for doing the jobs that Americans just won't do.

I'm willing to bet you wanted Canada to invade Iraq back in 2003. If claim you didn't, it would be entirely out of character.

badbrains · April 2015

BS44325 said:

callen said:

BS44325 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

Jason P said:
And the theory of exceptionalism doesn't apply to Iran? A country that despises Western culture and influence and see themselves as superior?

Iran, according to wiki, Last Week with Jon Oliver, and other esteemed news sources chants "Death to America" after weekly Friday prayers (T.G.I.F!) and other public events. They have been doing this on a regular basis for all of my life.

So while we have a pity party over how we Americans are oppressive fucks, do any of us really think Iran would sign and agree to any deal outside of us bowing for forgiveness while lifting all sanctions and promising to send them a bunch of Doritos and dip as repercussions? Do you really think we will be smoking peace pipes and chanting kumbaya if an agreement is signed?

Iran's hard liners make the neocons look like a bunch of Girl Scouts.
No, it doesn't. They don't despise western culture. Some conservatives in their clerical leadership might despise western culture just as some conservatives here would like to, "take their country back." Iran has one of the youngest demographics in the developing world. A younger generation hungry for western pop cultural and increased ties and relations with the west. The aging clerics realize they need the economy back and they need to appeal to and satisfy their up and coming generation. Otherwise, they're going to have major domestic unrest. Have you ever met anyone from Iran? Had a conversation with them? Been to Iran or spoken with someone who has traveled there? Iranians don't hate the US. The average Iranian would like for nothing more than to have peace between our countries and decent relations. These are the folks Obama is trying to appeal to and having a 10 year framework to appeal further and build mutual trust is what he's trying to accomplish. As BB pointed out, after we fucked them from 1954-1979, is it any wonder government directed elements parade around chanting death to America? I don't know where Iran is heavily influencing culture or trying to strong arm nations into a similar governing systems nor do I see them acting superior. Superior where and to who? Very unlike this country. News alert, not everyone wants to live under a western democratic capitalist system.

Nixon went to China, Reagan met with Gorbachev, Clinton opened relations with Vietnam and sent former Senator Mitchell to Ireland. All of these were much more preferable than "bombing", "going to war" or being isolationist. Difficult work ahead? Sure. Impossible? No. Going to war is easy and a sign of weakness and should be considered only as a last resort. You have to start somewhere and as john Lennon once said, "give peace a chance." Something I'm willing to try before embarking on another war of choice.

And how do you describe John Bolton who wrote an op-ed published in the NYT calling for the bombing of Iran because, "it's the only thing they understand?" Or McCain singing bomb, bomb, bomb Iran? Or, well the Bush administration that invaded Iraq, killing 4000+ Americans and upwards of a million Iraqis? Girl Scouts? Hardly.

And my guess on BS, he's heavily invested in oil and defense industry stocks. Turn off the war drums and wait to see what happens around June 30th when the details of the framework agreement are supposed to be codified into a substantive agreement that both sides take back to their governments for approval.
Ha! I'm heavily invested in oil and defense industry stocks now? Yesterday I was a lobbyist/agent of Israel? The inability for some of you to hear an alternate opinion is staggering. Alternative music...good. Alternative opinion...bad.
Some hear someone that is scared of the boogey man and falls for one sided argument while calling for war. Become a mercenary and take your butt and fight the Evildoers. Also send 30% of your income to me reimbursing my tax dollars spent on war as the US taxpayer is paying for this shit.
Your country invaded Iraq and then proceeded to fuck it up for the rest of the world. My country is there now doing our best with our limited resources to help the local forces clean up some of the mess you left behind. Whether or not you were for the war your country started it and should have the guts to see it through. As Colin Powell said "If you break it you buy it". Canada has troops in Ukraine, Afghanistan, Iraq and we're conducting bombing runs over Syria...these deployments are barely controversial up here. Maybe you should be thanking us for doing the jobs that Americans just won't do.

Is there a reason you're not enlisting? We've brought it up to you a few times, even offered to hook u up with a recruit I know. You're so GUNG-HO about war, mite as well volunteer your services. I'm sure there are a SHITLOAD of servicemen who'd be willing to let you take their place. So please pm me your info and I'll make sure the recruits get in touch with you or someone in your family willing to die for "your" bombing campaign. Don't be a pussy now.

BS44325 · April 2015

dignin said:

BS44325 said:

callen said:

BS44325 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

Jason P said:
And the theory of exceptionalism doesn't apply to Iran? A country that despises Western culture and influence and see themselves as superior?

Iran, according to wiki, Last Week with Jon Oliver, and other esteemed news sources chants "Death to America" after weekly Friday prayers (T.G.I.F!) and other public events. They have been doing this on a regular basis for all of my life.

So while we have a pity party over how we Americans are oppressive fucks, do any of us really think Iran would sign and agree to any deal outside of us bowing for forgiveness while lifting all sanctions and promising to send them a bunch of Doritos and dip as repercussions? Do you really think we will be smoking peace pipes and chanting kumbaya if an agreement is signed?

Iran's hard liners make the neocons look like a bunch of Girl Scouts.
No, it doesn't. They don't despise western culture. Some conservatives in their clerical leadership might despise western culture just as some conservatives here would like to, "take their country back." Iran has one of the youngest demographics in the developing world. A younger generation hungry for western pop cultural and increased ties and relations with the west. The aging clerics realize they need the economy back and they need to appeal to and satisfy their up and coming generation. Otherwise, they're going to have major domestic unrest. Have you ever met anyone from Iran? Had a conversation with them? Been to Iran or spoken with someone who has traveled there? Iranians don't hate the US. The average Iranian would like for nothing more than to have peace between our countries and decent relations. These are the folks Obama is trying to appeal to and having a 10 year framework to appeal further and build mutual trust is what he's trying to accomplish. As BB pointed out, after we fucked them from 1954-1979, is it any wonder government directed elements parade around chanting death to America? I don't know where Iran is heavily influencing culture or trying to strong arm nations into a similar governing systems nor do I see them acting superior. Superior where and to who? Very unlike this country. News alert, not everyone wants to live under a western democratic capitalist system.

Nixon went to China, Reagan met with Gorbachev, Clinton opened relations with Vietnam and sent former Senator Mitchell to Ireland. All of these were much more preferable than "bombing", "going to war" or being isolationist. Difficult work ahead? Sure. Impossible? No. Going to war is easy and a sign of weakness and should be considered only as a last resort. You have to start somewhere and as john Lennon once said, "give peace a chance." Something I'm willing to try before embarking on another war of choice.

And how do you describe John Bolton who wrote an op-ed published in the NYT calling for the bombing of Iran because, "it's the only thing they understand?" Or McCain singing bomb, bomb, bomb Iran? Or, well the Bush administration that invaded Iraq, killing 4000+ Americans and upwards of a million Iraqis? Girl Scouts? Hardly.

And my guess on BS, he's heavily invested in oil and defense industry stocks. Turn off the war drums and wait to see what happens around June 30th when the details of the framework agreement are supposed to be codified into a substantive agreement that both sides take back to their governments for approval.
Ha! I'm heavily invested in oil and defense industry stocks now? Yesterday I was a lobbyist/agent of Israel? The inability for some of you to hear an alternate opinion is staggering. Alternative music...good. Alternative opinion...bad.
Some hear someone that is scared of the boogey man and falls for one sided argument while calling for war. Become a mercenary and take your butt and fight the Evildoers. Also send 30% of your income to me reimbursing my tax dollars spent on war as the US taxpayer is paying for this shit.
Your country invaded Iraq and then proceeded to fuck it up for the rest of the world. My country is there now doing our best with our limited resources to help the local forces clean up some of the mess you left behind. Whether or not you were for the war your country started it and should have the guts to see it through. As Colin Powell said "If you break it you buy it". Canada has troops in Ukraine, Afghanistan, Iraq and we're conducting bombing runs over Syria...these deployments are barely controversial up here. Maybe you should be thanking us for doing the jobs that Americans just won't do.

I'm willing to bet you wanted Canada to invade Iraq back in 2003. If claim you didn't, it would be entirely out of character.

I did, so did our current Prime Minister, so did your current Democratic party front-runner.

callen · April 2015

BS44325 said:

dignin said:

BS44325 said:

callen said:

BS44325 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

Jason P said:
And the theory of exceptionalism doesn't apply to Iran? A country that despises Western culture and influence and see themselves as superior?

Iran, according to wiki, Last Week with Jon Oliver, and other esteemed news sources chants "Death to America" after weekly Friday prayers (T.G.I.F!) and other public events. They have been doing this on a regular basis for all of my life.

So while we have a pity party over how we Americans are oppressive fucks, do any of us really think Iran would sign and agree to any deal outside of us bowing for forgiveness while lifting all sanctions and promising to send them a bunch of Doritos and dip as repercussions? Do you really think we will be smoking peace pipes and chanting kumbaya if an agreement is signed?

Iran's hard liners make the neocons look like a bunch of Girl Scouts.
No, it doesn't. They don't despise western culture. Some conservatives in their clerical leadership might despise western culture just as some conservatives here would like to, "take their country back." Iran has one of the youngest demographics in the developing world. A younger generation hungry for western pop cultural and increased ties and relations with the west. The aging clerics realize they need the economy back and they need to appeal to and satisfy their up and coming generation. Otherwise, they're going to have major domestic unrest. Have you ever met anyone from Iran? Had a conversation with them? Been to Iran or spoken with someone who has traveled there? Iranians don't hate the US. The average Iranian would like for nothing more than to have peace between our countries and decent relations. These are the folks Obama is trying to appeal to and having a 10 year framework to appeal further and build mutual trust is what he's trying to accomplish. As BB pointed out, after we fucked them from 1954-1979, is it any wonder government directed elements parade around chanting death to America? I don't know where Iran is heavily influencing culture or trying to strong arm nations into a similar governing systems nor do I see them acting superior. Superior where and to who? Very unlike this country. News alert, not everyone wants to live under a western democratic capitalist system.

Nixon went to China, Reagan met with Gorbachev, Clinton opened relations with Vietnam and sent former Senator Mitchell to Ireland. All of these were much more preferable than "bombing", "going to war" or being isolationist. Difficult work ahead? Sure. Impossible? No. Going to war is easy and a sign of weakness and should be considered only as a last resort. You have to start somewhere and as john Lennon once said, "give peace a chance." Something I'm willing to try before embarking on another war of choice.

And how do you describe John Bolton who wrote an op-ed published in the NYT calling for the bombing of Iran because, "it's the only thing they understand?" Or McCain singing bomb, bomb, bomb Iran? Or, well the Bush administration that invaded Iraq, killing 4000+ Americans and upwards of a million Iraqis? Girl Scouts? Hardly.

And my guess on BS, he's heavily invested in oil and defense industry stocks. Turn off the war drums and wait to see what happens around June 30th when the details of the framework agreement are supposed to be codified into a substantive agreement that both sides take back to their governments for approval.
Ha! I'm heavily invested in oil and defense industry stocks now? Yesterday I was a lobbyist/agent of Israel? The inability for some of you to hear an alternate opinion is staggering. Alternative music...good. Alternative opinion...bad.
Some hear someone that is scared of the boogey man and falls for one sided argument while calling for war. Become a mercenary and take your butt and fight the Evildoers. Also send 30% of your income to me reimbursing my tax dollars spent on war as the US taxpayer is paying for this shit.
Your country invaded Iraq and then proceeded to fuck it up for the rest of the world. My country is there now doing our best with our limited resources to help the local forces clean up some of the mess you left behind. Whether or not you were for the war your country started it and should have the guts to see it through. As Colin Powell said "If you break it you buy it". Canada has troops in Ukraine, Afghanistan, Iraq and we're conducting bombing runs over Syria...these deployments are barely controversial up here. Maybe you should be thanking us for doing the jobs that Americans just won't do.

I'm willing to bet you wanted Canada to invade Iraq back in 2003. If claim you didn't, it would be entirely out of character.
I did, so did our current Prime Minister, so did your current Democratic party front-runner.

But many including me didn't and many including you didn't learn from it.

BS44325 · April 2015

badbrains said:

BS44325 said:

callen said:

BS44325 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

Jason P said:
And the theory of exceptionalism doesn't apply to Iran? A country that despises Western culture and influence and see themselves as superior?

Iran, according to wiki, Last Week with Jon Oliver, and other esteemed news sources chants "Death to America" after weekly Friday prayers (T.G.I.F!) and other public events. They have been doing this on a regular basis for all of my life.

So while we have a pity party over how we Americans are oppressive fucks, do any of us really think Iran would sign and agree to any deal outside of us bowing for forgiveness while lifting all sanctions and promising to send them a bunch of Doritos and dip as repercussions? Do you really think we will be smoking peace pipes and chanting kumbaya if an agreement is signed?

Iran's hard liners make the neocons look like a bunch of Girl Scouts.
No, it doesn't. They don't despise western culture. Some conservatives in their clerical leadership might despise western culture just as some conservatives here would like to, "take their country back." Iran has one of the youngest demographics in the developing world. A younger generation hungry for western pop cultural and increased ties and relations with the west. The aging clerics realize they need the economy back and they need to appeal to and satisfy their up and coming generation. Otherwise, they're going to have major domestic unrest. Have you ever met anyone from Iran? Had a conversation with them? Been to Iran or spoken with someone who has traveled there? Iranians don't hate the US. The average Iranian would like for nothing more than to have peace between our countries and decent relations. These are the folks Obama is trying to appeal to and having a 10 year framework to appeal further and build mutual trust is what he's trying to accomplish. As BB pointed out, after we fucked them from 1954-1979, is it any wonder government directed elements parade around chanting death to America? I don't know where Iran is heavily influencing culture or trying to strong arm nations into a similar governing systems nor do I see them acting superior. Superior where and to who? Very unlike this country. News alert, not everyone wants to live under a western democratic capitalist system.

Nixon went to China, Reagan met with Gorbachev, Clinton opened relations with Vietnam and sent former Senator Mitchell to Ireland. All of these were much more preferable than "bombing", "going to war" or being isolationist. Difficult work ahead? Sure. Impossible? No. Going to war is easy and a sign of weakness and should be considered only as a last resort. You have to start somewhere and as john Lennon once said, "give peace a chance." Something I'm willing to try before embarking on another war of choice.

And how do you describe John Bolton who wrote an op-ed published in the NYT calling for the bombing of Iran because, "it's the only thing they understand?" Or McCain singing bomb, bomb, bomb Iran? Or, well the Bush administration that invaded Iraq, killing 4000+ Americans and upwards of a million Iraqis? Girl Scouts? Hardly.

And my guess on BS, he's heavily invested in oil and defense industry stocks. Turn off the war drums and wait to see what happens around June 30th when the details of the framework agreement are supposed to be codified into a substantive agreement that both sides take back to their governments for approval.
Ha! I'm heavily invested in oil and defense industry stocks now? Yesterday I was a lobbyist/agent of Israel? The inability for some of you to hear an alternate opinion is staggering. Alternative music...good. Alternative opinion...bad.
Some hear someone that is scared of the boogey man and falls for one sided argument while calling for war. Become a mercenary and take your butt and fight the Evildoers. Also send 30% of your income to me reimbursing my tax dollars spent on war as the US taxpayer is paying for this shit.
Your country invaded Iraq and then proceeded to fuck it up for the rest of the world. My country is there now doing our best with our limited resources to help the local forces clean up some of the mess you left behind. Whether or not you were for the war your country started it and should have the guts to see it through. As Colin Powell said "If you break it you buy it". Canada has troops in Ukraine, Afghanistan, Iraq and we're conducting bombing runs over Syria...these deployments are barely controversial up here. Maybe you should be thanking us for doing the jobs that Americans just won't do.
Is there a reason you're not enlisting? We've brought it up to you a few times, even offered to hook u up with a recruit I know. You're so GUNG-HO about war, mite as well volunteer your services. I'm sure there are a SHITLOAD of servicemen who'd be willing to let you take their place. So please pm me your info and I'll make sure the recruits get in touch with you or someone in your family willing to die for "your" bombing campaign. Don't be a pussy now.

My answer is the same as before. I'm too old and the kids are too young. I look back with regret for not enlisting in my younger days but we can't change the past. Spent too much time smoking weed and bathing in the groupthink of the left. As far as the kids are concerned my oldest is about 6 years out until she can enlist. All three are constantly taught about the nobility of service but in the end they will be free to choose their own career path. We can guide our kids but ultimately it is up to them to decide how they wish to spend their lives.

BS44325 · April 2015

Now if you are all done attacking the messenger we can back to the news...

http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/saudi-iran-rivalry-yemen-deepens-mideast-sectarianism-30368937?singlePage=true

This shit is real whether I enlist or not. Everyday things get worse. Al qaeda just took over an airport, oil port and sea port in Yemen. Ramadi is falling. We will either be sucked in on our terms or on someone elses. We need to be proactive and not reactive. We as the west need to decide what our principles are and take action before it's too late.

http://youtu.be/gBCy-UxtMAU

Edit - Had to add that Egyptian tv is now asking Israel to hit Iran. None of this will end well.

badbrains · April 2015

BS44325 said:
Now if you are all done attacking the messenger we can back to the news...

http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/saudi-iran-rivalry-yemen-deepens-mideast-sectarianism-30368937?singlePage=true

This shit is real whether I enlist or not. Everyday things get worse. Al qaeda just took over an airport, oil port and sea port in Yemen. Ramadi is falling. We will either be sucked in on our terms or on someone elses. We need to be proactive and not reactive. We as the west need to decide what our principles are and take action before it's too late.

http://youtu.be/gBCy-UxtMAU

Edit - Had to add that Egyptian tv is now asking Israel to hit Iran. None of this will end well.

Lol, a 12 second sound bite taken out of context? Why the fuck would Israel need to refuel to bomb Iran? This video you posted didn't clarify shit except that you have a hard on for dropping bombs on Muslim countries. IsrAel killed over 500 kids and that's ok. Iran has killed how many kids? Is that more or less then 500?

Edit- I hope to god your kids enlist. Someone like you that writes checks with their mouth deserves to stay up at night wondering if their kids are safe walking the streets of Iran. Night after night

Iran Deal, the reset..... and halt

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