Iran Deal, the reset..... and halt

Aafke said:

josevolution said:

benjs said:

Aafke said:

badbrains said:

BS44325 said:

brianlux said:

BS44325 said:

brianlux said:

BS44325 said:

badbrains said:

BS44325 said:

badbrains said:

BS44325 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

BS44325 said:

Where the deal stands right now

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/04/10/opinion/david-brooks-the-revolution-lives.html?partner=rssnyt&emc=rss&_r=0&referrer=

A David Brooks opinion piece is not indicative of "where the deal stands right now."

It is indicative of where the politics of this is moving. Brooks is/was Obama's biggest supporter on the mainstream media "conservative" side. The Corker bill will move forward probably with a likely veto-proof bipartisan majority (see response of Tim Kaine for proof). The "deal" which appears to be a mirage is probably dead. The question now will be how does Obama respond? He could blame Iran for the failure and drop the hammer or he can blame Israel and the 47 "treasonous" senators. I know which way this message board will go but let's see what the president does.

A message board full of people who want NO MORE WARS and one clown advocating for and spreading the war machine. It's fucken sickening how anyone would want another war. You are one twisted human. Drooling at the prospect of another fucken war to benefit who? Exactly.

Edit-you want a fucken war, then stop being a fucken coward and enlist. If you're to old then have your son/daughter enlist and have your family well represented there.

Four F-words in one post. Good work.

Lucky it was only 4. Anyone who advocates for war is fucken crazy. There's one more.

If we stay on the path we are on war will be inevitable. If and when it begins I suggest we win it.

Only nobody really wins, right?

Correct

So that begs the question- why do we keep doing engaging in war?

Because history hasn't ended. Not everyone amongst us are rational actors. I want the world you want but unfortunately evil does exist. "Death to America" cannot be written off as a meaningless slogan for a domestic audience. It is the will of some. We can't wish it away.

This coming from a guy living in CANADA. Let America decide what to do. Why you so gung-ho for fucken war? And you have a funny fucken way of determining who's evil and who's the good guys.

Yes, BS, evil does exist, we can´t wish it away, but by posting the way you do, in my opinion, you fuel the existing evil, instead of looking for a solution. War has never, ever had any winners, it only brings pain and grief on both sides... By fueling up the fear and hatred you are part of the problem in my opinion, not part of the solution. All humans have a lot in common, if we start looking for these commons instead of the differences, the world can be a peaceful place maybe, one day...

I couldn't have said it better myself if I tried (and I have).

It's unfortunate, because to be empathetic has become synonymous with being naive. That's how little faith we collectively have in each other at this point, and it's going to take a massive, widespread pivot in mentality to bring about tangible change in our human-human relationships.

If we as North Americans truly believe in the power of democracy - power of the people - we need to recognize the self-serving bias introduced by our leadership, and reclaim that power to bring change. We need to think of "everyone" as the group we make a priority - and not ourselves as individuals. This means we need to enact this movement in North America, it also means the Iranian people need to speak up for this. The Israelis need to speak up for this. The Palestinians need to speak up for this. No one can be exempt from the movement of redefining who we give a shit about, regardless of status (oppressor, oppressed, wealthy, poor, powerful, powerless). It must be comprehensive.

In addition, ludicrous as this sounds, this movement can't be limited to humans, and it can't be limited to earth. We can't handle interracial or inter-regional relationships - and we certainly haven't mastered inter-species relationships. If foreign beings (i.e. of other planets) become an issue - you'd better believe this is going to go from bad to worse if we can't master empathy.

It sounds to me like it would take massive movements/protests to really get that point across , unfortunately their is a large % of populace here in this country that is totally arrogant they lack compassion for man kind ...Its the mentality of my way or the highway ....

And that is exactly the whole problem. In Western societies, not only in North America, but Europe as well.... we all became a bunch of egoistic bullies. We stopped listening to one another. The ones that scream the loudest, get the most attention.... No matter if its an substantiated point he or she is making or not. We are all just a bunch off self-centered bastards... We just want to have more, more and more, no matter the price some others have to pay for it. Changing this menthality sure won´t be easy, but I think will be necessary to save the environment and humanity. Maybe at the moment we can live the life's we wanna live, but look at the costs... On my own I can´t do much to change it accept speak out over and over again, until people start listening, and start caring for one another and the world once again. Call me an idealist, sure I am, but without ideals, what makes life worth living for?

At least this is my point of view, do with it what you wanna do...

Once again, couldn't agree more

I'm all for idealism, and I'm left scratching my head when I speak to people with dissent for idealism. Seems to me those are the folks who have succumbed to the faithlessness in universal empathy that modern society can induce in a person.

I think if you want to bring change, you have to get used to being seen as naive.

Otherwise, we might as well recognize our own impending doom and be all for the Iran deal in the hopes that it brings about a nuclear holocaust that gets rid of us all faster and with less pain.

I agree wholeheartedly with both of you up above its just a damn shame that it seems hopeless at times ....

Jose our current president isn't as hawkish so maybe plititio

BS44325 said:

Aafke said:

badbrains said:

BS44325 said:

brianlux said:

BS44325 said:

brianlux said:

BS44325 said:

badbrains said:

BS44325 said:

badbrains said:

BS44325 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

BS44325 said:

Where the deal stands right now

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/04/10/opinion/david-brooks-the-revolution-lives.html?partner=rssnyt&emc=rss&_r=0&referrer=

A David Brooks opinion piece is not indicative of "where the deal stands right now."

It is indicative of where the politics of this is moving. Brooks is/was Obama's biggest supporter on the mainstream media "conservative" side. The Corker bill will move forward probably with a likely veto-proof bipartisan majority (see response of Tim Kaine for proof). The "deal" which appears to be a mirage is probably dead. The question now will be how does Obama respond? He could blame Iran for the failure and drop the hammer or he can blame Israel and the 47 "treasonous" senators. I know which way this message board will go but let's see what the president does.

A message board full of people who want NO MORE WARS and one clown advocating for and spreading the war machine. It's fucken sickening how anyone would want another war. You are one twisted human. Drooling at the prospect of another fucken war to benefit who? Exactly.

Edit-you want a fucken war, then stop being a fucken coward and enlist. If you're to old then have your son/daughter enlist and have your family well represented there.

Four F-words in one post. Good work.

Lucky it was only 4. Anyone who advocates for war is fucken crazy. There's one more.

If we stay on the path we are on war will be inevitable. If and when it begins I suggest we win it.

Only nobody really wins, right?

Correct

So that begs the question- why do we keep doing engaging in war?

Because history hasn't ended. Not everyone amongst us are rational actors. I want the world you want but unfortunately evil does exist. "Death to America" cannot be written off as a meaningless slogan for a domestic audience. It is the will of some. We can't wish it away.

This coming from a guy living in CANADA. Let America decide what to do. Why you so gung-ho for fucken war? And you have a funny fucken way of determining who's evil and who's the good guys.

Yes, BS, evil does exist, we can´t wish it away, but by posting the way you do, in my opinion, you fuel the existing evil, instead of looking for a solution. War has never, ever had any winners, it only brings pain and grief on both sides... By fueling up the fear and hatred you are part of the problem in my opinion, not part of the solution. All humans have a lot in common, if we start looking for these commons instead of the differences, the world can be a peaceful place maybe, one day...

This sounds nice but not everyone wants to find common ground with us. Pointing this out is not to "fuel fear and hatred". I apologize if this makes you uncomfortable.

Wrong most humans would prefer common ground. We just listen to war profiteers too much.

benjs said:

badbrains said:

Just felt like chiming in with FUCK WAR. Carry on

But see even this has to be rethought. The opposite of war isn't coexistence. So, rather than putting energy into hating war, we need to put energy into championing peace, and letting differences become positive factors instead of negative ones. It sounds like a small and pedantic comment, but I think it'll be paramount to learning to love universally.

I completely agree...We don´t need more hate in this world, we need more companionship.

mickeyrat said:

Aafke said:

First of all I am no American but European, and therefor I do not operate from the principle of American Exceptionalism. Second of all I think these principle of American Exceptionalism, is one of the mean problems, Western societies think so highly of themselves, the right way to see the world is our way... But so does a part of the Muslim culture, which rage against the western world, so there´s one example of a common ground for you. To be more specific, this isn´t an exclusive American problem, it´s a western problem or maybe even an universal problem.... But by raging against one another the only gain will be war and grief. If we don´t want it to happen we have to start a movement based on common grounds and companionship, instead of hatred and dividing.

was directed at our canadian friend. I find you to be openminded and willing to hear or consider other viewpoints. I appreciate your contributions to the threads you participate in.

To my point though, that IS an issue , this idea of American Exceptionalism. Height of ego for a country , no? Seems to preclude any kind of meeting of the minds.

Yes, I do believe you certainly have a point there... Unfortunately this attitude is catching on in Europe, or better said catching on again, because I´m afraid it started in Europe. The colonization of the rest of the world are well documented example for the ludicrous arrogant behavior of the European past...

But also in the present tense this arrogance is once again arising... For example in my country we do have one very anti Muslim politician, who also does play the blame game very, very well, (everything which goes wrong in our country, is entirely the fault of the immigrated Muslims, certainly not of the Europeans). Unfortunately he wins on support every election and sees the US as his great example. I don´t think I have to explain around here I will never, ever vote for this guy. But it worries me so many do. By blaming the Muslims he does single out a black sheep, and does divide our society, even further. Unfortunately this kind of messages win election because, they are fueling up the hatred and fear for a minority.

With this kind of rhetorical argumentation about 80 years ago some Austrian won elections in German, and murdered more than 6 million Jews. But the alienation of the Jews in these countries started way before he even was born. It started 60 years before the start of World War Two. When the Jews, became the elite in Austria and the locals, felt threaten to lose their dominant place in society.

History now a day tries to make Hitler into a devil, surely he wasn´t the nicest person to have around, but he was only human, he was a product of his hate fueled society, and only did take it to the next level. In my opinion this can happen once again, and looking at the growing hate and fear of Muslims, this is happening right now, all over again.

Step by step we are building up to a next disaster founded on difference of faith, as an excuse, to slaughter of entire groups of human beings. In my opinion the only way to prevent this is by talking to people, look for the commons, instead of the differences. Keep seeing them as persons instead of enemies! And to speak out to those who can´t do this anymore.

By this I do not mean that everyone has to be the same, or we must chop off divisive elements, because there will always be differences between people. That makes the world just a more adventures place to live in. But with all our differences, we have to live together on this planet, so lets try to respect each other, and stop trying to convince one another with force to accept our own world view. All our views on the world are different, but one is not better than the other, they are just different. Despite all our differences we do also have a lot in common. let these differences not divide us, but unit us...