What the hell happened in Wisconsin?

brianlux said:

brianlux said:

You guys are arguing about those few times where a split second decision must be made in which either the suspect will be killed or the cop. What about all the times (and we know they have been, are, and will be) where racial profiling is a factor and lives are needlessly taken? What about getting to the root of the cause which is discrimination, racism and economic disparity?

And why are some of you so obsessed with making sure people are killed? The whole flavor of this thread has gotten depressing. (I know... I can leave.)

OK, the high-lighted was poorly worded and I'm OK with the criticism of my poor wording in that sentence. Better wording would be, "And why are some of you so obsessed with it being OK for cops to kill so quickly and easily instead of discussing taking evasive measures when possible." My point is, our society is becoming more and more jaded about violence, more and more inclined to accept a police state mentality, more and more OK with shoot first, ask questions later and at best stagnant on racism.

What I'm not OK with is the way some of you, including some of you I generally have show respect and high regard for, chose to attack my post. Wouldn't some of you agree it's getting at least a bit viscous and redundant around here?

What's ironic is that it seems like this forum, which is based on a band that has a more progressive "liberal" (if you will) stance on things, seems to be moving in a more conservative direction. As an old fuck, I'll tell you why that is. It is because, in general, as generations age they seem to become more conservative. Not me and I'm a boomer and boomers are far more conservative today than they were 35-40 years ago. I find that perplexing and at least a bit disturbing. Some of you are going to seek a more conservative stance because you think it will be better for you now that you have a family and a mortgage. You're going to take the "safer" route because something inside tells you status quo is safer. You're going to begin to resist change because change involves risk and you don't want to jeopardize your creature comforts. That's all fine and good on an emotional here and now level but don't be surprised when you start to wonder why your train is no longer moving.

Brian,even though I don't agree with some of your stance on this one,you know,like Hedo I Also respect your position and input on issues.

I do however agree with you that yes ,we do get more conservative with age.Not just politically but with certain social issues.
My dad used to say if you aren't a liberal at 20 you have no heart.If you aren't a conservative at 40 you have no brain.

I think we can keep(talking for myself here) certain social liberal stances like women's choice,Gay marraige,etc and still take conservative fiscal positions like certain tax breaks and spending limits.
In fact I think it's a nice mix and allows me to see and cherry pick both sides of an issue to suit my personal view and perspective.

backseatLover12 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

brianlux said:

Serious issues sometimes call for serious emotions. I don't see what's wrong with that.

But sweeping ridiculous false statements like bsl keeps spewing get annoying after a while. "Apathy for life", "regarding cops as saints". To be blunt, it's fucking stupid and childish to make statements like this to try to just get a reaction from others, especially when the evidence points to the direct opposite. We can discuss without half the thread being many of us refuting these ridiculous claims.

So what exactly do you call justification for ending one's life when one is on the ground and there are 4 cops on you? Justify the killing a 12 year old with a toy gun. That is APATHY for life. Some of you talk like you view the police can do no wrong and does the term "pledge allegiance" sound familiar? It's only been mentioned by me and Gambs several times in this thread regarding the common thread with many of the unquestioning the police people.

And the "evidence points to the direct opposite". Laughable. Show me the evidence.

Jesus Christ, man.

Give it up. You are like the human embodiment of Bill Murray in Groundhog Day: you keep making entries that say the same fucking thing. If your purpose is to annoy people to the point they want to stick pins in their eyeballs... you are inching nearer to success.

One last time from me... get ready... if you've been skimming to this point stop skimming now and really concentrate 'cause here it comes... the points you need to hear:

1. There are cases where cops have acted poorly in the line of duty. In these cases, cops need to be held accountable. Nobody is pleased that Tamir Rice was gunned down while playing in the park- it was unbelievably poor police work that should lead to dismissals, but not necessarily murder. In extreme cases, criminal charges should be laid (Thomas).

2. Cops are human and prone to error. They have a difficult job to do... it's much tougher than your job (whatever that might be... maybe it's no job?). When they make errors while performing under pressure and in tense moments we can't simply throw therm off a cliff. We have to afford a measure of appreciation and understanding for the challenges they face. Anyone of us might make errors in the same position.

3. If anybody tries to reach for a cop's gun in a scuffle... they can expect to be shot. What do you think the victim was trying to get the gun for? It's self defense. Period.

4. Blaming cops, at the point of trouble is like blaming the car directly in front of you for a traffic jam. They are not to blame for the racial divide. Look at your corporate machine and the unbelievable inequity in wealth as a more significant factor contributing to what you have such a problem with.

There's more, but that's all I care to reiterate for now. If you are going to persist with going on about how awesome you and RG are and how shitty 'the rest of us are'... I might have to take the gloves off.

Have a nice day.

Fail.

PJfanwillneverleave1 said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

backseatLover12 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

brianlux said:

Serious issues sometimes call for serious emotions. I don't see what's wrong with that.

But sweeping ridiculous false statements like bsl keeps spewing get annoying after a while. "Apathy for life", "regarding cops as saints". To be blunt, it's fucking stupid and childish to make statements like this to try to just get a reaction from others, especially when the evidence points to the direct opposite. We can discuss without half the thread being many of us refuting these ridiculous claims.

So what exactly do you call justification for ending one's life when one is on the ground and there are 4 cops on you? Justify the killing a 12 year old with a toy gun. That is APATHY for life. Some of you talk like you view the police can do no wrong and does the term "pledge allegiance" sound familiar? It's only been mentioned by me and Gambs several times in this thread regarding the common thread with many of the unquestioning the police people.

And the "evidence points to the direct opposite". Laughable. Show me the evidence.

Jesus Christ, man.

Give it up. You are like the human embodiment of Bill Murray in Groundhog Day: you keep making entries that say the same fucking thing. If your purpose is to annoy people to the point they want to stick pins in their eyeballs... you are inching nearer to success.

One last time from me... get ready... if you've been skimming to this point stop skimming now and really concentrate 'cause here it comes... the points you need to hear:

1. There are cases where cops have acted poorly in the line of duty. In these cases, cops need to be held accountable. Nobody is pleased that Tamir Rice was gunned down while playing in the park- it was unbelievably poor police work that should lead to dismissals, but not necessarily murder. In extreme cases, criminal charges should be laid (Thomas).

2. Cops are human and prone to error. They have a difficult job to do... it's much tougher than your job (whatever that might be... maybe it's no job?). When they make errors while performing under pressure and in tense moments we can't simply throw therm off a cliff. We have to afford a measure of appreciation and understanding for the challenges they face. Anyone of us might make errors in the same position.

3. If anybody tries to reach for a cop's gun in a scuffle... they can expect to be shot. What do you think the victim was trying to get the gun for? It's self defense. Period.

4. Blaming cops, at the point of trouble is like blaming the car directly in front of you for a traffic jam. They are not to blame for the racial divide. Look at your corporate machine and the unbelievable inequity in wealth as a more significant factor contributing to what you have such a problem with.

There's more, but that's all I care to reiterate for now. If you are going to persist with going on about how awesome you and RG are and how shitty 'the rest of us are'... I might have to take the gloves off.

Have a nice day.

Fuck ya thirty bills!

At least this one isn't the same as all the other ones.

But, to be fair, this is not an original submission. It's been presented already in the MT.

Look... you seem like a decent person and I'm tired of arguing with you. Here's all I have for an olive branch: I get and respect your passion and compassion for those people subjected to unfair police treatment. I'm there with you in some cases as well. All I ask is you look at these situations from an individual cop's perspective at times too. These people do a tough job and at the end of the day... they want to come home, hug their kids, have a glass of wine, and listen to Pearl Jam just like all of us. Wearing the uniform doesn't make them subhuman.

I know you'll say I DO... but if you do... you do so with such a teeny weeny little font and with so few words that one is hardly left with the impression you have things in complete perspective.

* Edit: My apologies BSL. I erroneously thought this was your response to mine. I stand by my 'olive branch' though.

brianlux said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

brianlux said:

Serious issues sometimes call for serious emotions. I don't see what's wrong with that.

But sweeping ridiculous false statements like bsl keeps spewing get annoying after a while. "Apathy for life", "regarding cops as saints". To be blunt, it's fucking stupid and childish to make statements like this to try to just get a reaction from others, especially when the evidence points to the direct opposite. We can discuss without half the thread being many of us refuting these ridiculous claims.

Emotional I get but, really, "sweeping ridiculous false statements", "fucking stupid", "childish", "ridiculous claims"? What could be said about those sentiments, Hugh?

Emotional... right!

We are a passionate bunch, I'll grant that.

Not emotional, at all. Just my opinion.

brianlux said:

Wow this thread... when the bullying posturing starts up it's time to shut this fucker down.

Good grief and GOOD NIGHT!

No shit. I'm out. There is no room for reasoned debate here.

backseatLover12 said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

brianlux said:

hedonist said:

Brian, I hope you know you weren't being attacked, and your specific post/comment questioned - fairly so. Again, even though you re-stated, there is no obsession. Surely you can see how that's an unfair assessment of those you respect (as is reciprocated by myself as well as I'm sure others.

There've been many incidents mentioned in this and other related threads, some seen as valid by no other choice, and others denounced, rightly so. The one here recently in LA had nothing to do with race, nor did Kelly Thomas - my opinions of which are vastly different.

I'll grant "obsessed" may be too strong a word. The point is, several here have dug in their heels with defending the trend toward "shoot first, ask questions later". At least that's how I read it. I'm not talking about a specific incident (and to be fair, that is what this thread is about) but rather the multiple incidents (we've talked about several of them on AMT) of people getting gunned down, choked to death etc.

I remember when the first person was killed by a police officer in Palo Alto, CA. That had never happened before. Ever! People were shocked. It was a big deal. Now it's just another shooting, ho hum... sad how things have changed.

Again, no one advocates for shoot first ask questions later. Do you really beleive what you are writing?

Bullshit. In the Czech Republic, as I already stated, the policy is to shoot only after fired upon. How many cases in the U.S. end up with a fatality only to find that it was a toy gun? knife? no weapon? That as what Brian means in shoot first, talk later. Cops jump the gun, assume their life is threatened and because the law is nothing like the CR, they don't have to wait. They can assume that the victim is reaching for the gun, so that gives them permission to fire. And not just fire, fire center mass, for the heart, shoot dead. Get away with murder.

Andonce again, sure, if you Choose to cherry pick for point you are trying to make, yeah, the CR has a fabulous police policy of shooting the extremities first.

Except when the perp is shooting at them. Then they fucking execute them. Mafia style. Two in the chest. One in the head. Direct from the article you posted. Apathy for life, as you would say. You think that is a policy worth emulating?