What the hell happened in Wisconsin?

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  • HughFreakingDillon
    HughFreakingDillon Winnipeg Posts: 39,473
    brianlux said:

    hedonist said:

    Brian, I hope you know you weren't being attacked, and your specific post/comment questioned - fairly so. Again, even though you re-stated, there is no obsession. Surely you can see how that's an unfair assessment of those you respect (as is reciprocated by myself as well as I'm sure others.

    There've been many incidents mentioned in this and other related threads, some seen as valid by no other choice, and others denounced, rightly so. The one here recently in LA had nothing to do with race, nor did Kelly Thomas - my opinions of which are vastly different.

    I'll grant "obsessed" may be too strong a word. The point is, several here have dug in their heels with defending the trend toward "shoot first, ask questions later". At least that's how I read it. I'm not talking about a specific incident (and to be fair, that is what this thread is about) but rather the multiple incidents (we've talked about several of them on AMT) of people getting gunned down, choked to death etc.

    I remember when the first person was killed by a police officer in Palo Alto, CA. That had never happened before. Ever! People were shocked. It was a big deal. Now it's just another shooting, ho hum... sad how things have changed.

    Again, no one advocates for shoot first ask questions later. Do you really beleive what you are writing?

    By The Time They Figure Out What Went Wrong, We'll Be Sitting On A Beach, Earning Twenty Percent.




  • HughFreakingDillon
    HughFreakingDillon Winnipeg Posts: 39,473
    brianlux said:

    Your talking about a few specific incidents, Thirty. Don't assume I think all cops are bad or that their job is easy or that I don't believe people make mistakes. But what about the general trend? Do you really believe that in general the situation is not more violence oriented , more police state oriented, more oriented toward shoot first, ask questions later? Maybe I assume too much by talking about general trends instead of one or two specific situations.

    Also, I find it interesting that the issue of racism and racial profiling keeps being ignored here.

    Not sure why you keep ignoring the rebuttals to your last statement. We all know that happens.

    And I believe that a lot of what we see in society today is a reflection of what is actually going on. Not so much in decades past. You didnt have a video camera on a hand held device on 95% of the population back then. This crap still happened, but it is gaining more attention now because of visual proof. And I think a lot more of it happened back then as there was much less accountability. 4 white cops word against 1 black kid with a criminal record.

    Racism is obviously still a huge problem, but does anyone think it is worse now than in the past?
    By The Time They Figure Out What Went Wrong, We'll Be Sitting On A Beach, Earning Twenty Percent.




  • backseatLover12
    backseatLover12 Posts: 2,312
    Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

    Some seem unwilling to acknowledge this fact, Hugh- that cops are human and as a result... we can safely expect a few things to happen no matter what policies are in place and regardless of training including:

    1. Being shaped by their experiences.
    2. Being prone to error.
    3. Being extra cautious when their life might be at risk.

    And the list goes on.

    We want cops to perform their duties at the highest level possible, but we have to exercise a remote level of understanding when they screw up. Our mentality cannot be, "Go do this incredibly challenging and dangerous job. Do it well, but don't screw up defending yourself because if you do... we will crucify you."

    Think about it for a second... some seem more willing to forgive the assailant for their indiscretion attacking the police officer (alluding to poverty and the resentment they have developed) than they do for the officer hastily making a error in judgement (performing his duties and becoming defensive engaged in an altercation while doing so).

    Yet, the professional here, should lead by example. I do recall talking about police retraining to include human relations training, since they've lost that connection to the very people they are to protect. Shoot first, talk later? That's not exactly talking down a dangerous person, that's a trigger moment where uttering a word is much more difficult than pulling the trigger. If I can't count on my public protector to actually talk to me but rather handle me roughly, and have his gun ready to use, we are living in a very dangerous country.

    If you seriously want me to consider police as humans, you'd better not forget that so are all the victims. Cut each other some slack and drop the drama and urgency to use a weapon. And yeah, it goes for BOTH sides.
  • brianlux
    brianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 43,662
    edited March 2015
    Fail.
    Post edited by brianlux on
    "It's a sad and beautiful world"
    -Roberto Benigni

  • backseatLover12
    backseatLover12 Posts: 2,312
    http://www.cnn.com/2014/12/02/politics/kristoff-oreilly-police-shooting-numbers-fact-check/

    Factcheck: Grim statistics on race and police killings

  • backseatLover12
    backseatLover12 Posts: 2,312
    edited March 2015
    HughFreakingDillon said:

    brianlux said:

    hedonist said:

    Brian, I hope you know you weren't being attacked, and your specific post/comment questioned - fairly so. Again, even though you re-stated, there is no obsession. Surely you can see how that's an unfair assessment of those you respect (as is reciprocated by myself as well as I'm sure others.

    There've been many incidents mentioned in this and other related threads, some seen as valid by no other choice, and others denounced, rightly so. The one here recently in LA had nothing to do with race, nor did Kelly Thomas - my opinions of which are vastly different.

    I'll grant "obsessed" may be too strong a word. The point is, several here have dug in their heels with defending the trend toward "shoot first, ask questions later". At least that's how I read it. I'm not talking about a specific incident (and to be fair, that is what this thread is about) but rather the multiple incidents (we've talked about several of them on AMT) of people getting gunned down, choked to death etc.

    I remember when the first person was killed by a police officer in Palo Alto, CA. That had never happened before. Ever! People were shocked. It was a big deal. Now it's just another shooting, ho hum... sad how things have changed.

    Again, no one advocates for shoot first ask questions later. Do you really beleive what you are writing?

    Bullshit. In the Czech Republic, as I already stated, the policy is to shoot only after fired upon. How many cases in the U.S. end up with a fatality only to find that it was a toy gun? knife? no weapon? That as what Brian means in shoot first, talk later. Cops jump the gun, assume their life is threatened and because the law is nothing like the CR, they don't have to wait. They can assume that the victim is reaching for the gun, so that gives them permission to fire. And not just fire, fire center mass, for the heart, shoot dead. Get away with murder.
    Post edited by backseatLover12 on
  • brianlux
    brianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 43,662
    edited March 2015
    Fail.

    Post edited by brianlux on
    "It's a sad and beautiful world"
    -Roberto Benigni

  • backseatLover12
    backseatLover12 Posts: 2,312
    brianlux said:

    backseatLover12 said:

    http://www.cnn.com/2014/12/02/politics/kristoff-oreilly-police-shooting-numbers-fact-check/

    Factcheck: Grim statistics on race and police killings

    This is worth checking out! This is what I mean by getting to the root of the problem. It really blows my mind that we aren't discussing this more. I'm surprised that some of you are more inclined to think it was right for that unarmed kid to be shot down. If this kind of response is common HERE, imagine what the discussion would look like on an NRA or a Clint Eastwood fan club site. Scary!
    Scary indeed.
  • backseatLover12
    backseatLover12 Posts: 2,312
    edited March 2015
    And although Brian feels that the word "obsessed" with death is a strong word (it is), it doesn't negate the apathy all over this thread in regards to life in general, and how death is deemed an appropriate punishment by most here in situations fitting enough to accommodate the officer.

    Some here place outlandish regard for police officers, place them above the law, saintly, even. They are humans, they make errors, they take advantage of situations. They are supposed to be professionals, they are supposed to be capable of being a hero, a protector and getting bad guys. But they no longer should be viewed as heroes if the bad cops are taking advantage of the title, they are no longer heroes or protectors if they shoot first, talk later. The sooner we acknowledge that they are errored humans just like us, the sooner we solve our issues - race and brutality issues.
    Post edited by backseatLover12 on
  • Last-12-Exit
    Last-12-Exit Charleston, SC Posts: 8,661
    backseatLover12 said:

    Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

    Some seem unwilling to acknowledge this fact, Hugh- that cops are human and as a result... we can safely expect a few things to happen no matter what policies are in place and regardless of training including:

    1. Being shaped by their experiences.
    2. Being prone to error.
    3. Being extra cautious when their life might be at risk.

    And the list goes on.

    We want cops to perform their duties at the highest level possible, but we have to exercise a remote level of understanding when they screw up. Our mentality cannot be, "Go do this incredibly challenging and dangerous job. Do it well, but don't screw up defending yourself because if you do... we will crucify you."

    Think about it for a second... some seem more willing to forgive the assailant for their indiscretion attacking the police officer (alluding to poverty and the resentment they have developed) than they do for the officer hastily making a error in judgement (performing his duties and becoming defensive engaged in an altercation while doing so).

    Yet, the professional here, should lead by example. I do recall talking about police retraining to include human relations training, since they've lost that connection to the very people they are to protect. Shoot first, talk later? That's not exactly talking down a dangerous person, that's a trigger moment where uttering a word is much more difficult than pulling the trigger. If I can't count on my public protector to actually talk to me but rather handle me roughly, and have his gun ready to use, we are living in a very dangerous country.

    If you seriously want me to consider police as humans, you'd better not forget that so are all the victims. Cut each other some slack and drop the drama and urgency to use a weapon. And yeah, it goes for BOTH sides.
    That's unbelievable. Stop the drama and urgency? Why not just take guns away from the cops?
  • backseatLover12
    backseatLover12 Posts: 2,312
    Last-12-Exit said:

    backseatLover12 said:

    Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

    Some seem unwilling to acknowledge this fact, Hugh- that cops are human and as a result... we can safely expect a few things to happen no matter what policies are in place and regardless of training including:

    1. Being shaped by their experiences.
    2. Being prone to error.
    3. Being extra cautious when their life might be at risk.

    And the list goes on.

    We want cops to perform their duties at the highest level possible, but we have to exercise a remote level of understanding when they screw up. Our mentality cannot be, "Go do this incredibly challenging and dangerous job. Do it well, but don't screw up defending yourself because if you do... we will crucify you."

    Think about it for a second... some seem more willing to forgive the assailant for their indiscretion attacking the police officer (alluding to poverty and the resentment they have developed) than they do for the officer hastily making a error in judgement (performing his duties and becoming defensive engaged in an altercation while doing so).

    Yet, the professional here, should lead by example. I do recall talking about police retraining to include human relations training, since they've lost that connection to the very people they are to protect. Shoot first, talk later? That's not exactly talking down a dangerous person, that's a trigger moment where uttering a word is much more difficult than pulling the trigger. If I can't count on my public protector to actually talk to me but rather handle me roughly, and have his gun ready to use, we are living in a very dangerous country.

    If you seriously want me to consider police as humans, you'd better not forget that so are all the victims. Cut each other some slack and drop the drama and urgency to use a weapon. And yeah, it goes for BOTH sides.
    That's unbelievable. Stop the drama and urgency? Why not just take guns away from the cops?
    It's like talking to a wall. I swear to Bob.
  • Last-12-Exit
    Last-12-Exit Charleston, SC Posts: 8,661
    edited March 2015
    backseatLover12 said:

    Last-12-Exit said:

    backseatLover12 said:

    Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

    Some seem unwilling to acknowledge this fact, Hugh- that cops are human and as a result... we can safely expect a few things to happen no matter what policies are in place and regardless of training including:

    1. Being shaped by their experiences.
    2. Being prone to error.
    3. Being extra cautious when their life might be at risk.

    And the list goes on.

    We want cops to perform their duties at the highest level possible, but we have to exercise a remote level of understanding when they screw up. Our mentality cannot be, "Go do this incredibly challenging and dangerous job. Do it well, but don't screw up defending yourself because if you do... we will crucify you."

    Think about it for a second... some seem more willing to forgive the assailant for their indiscretion attacking the police officer (alluding to poverty and the resentment they have developed) than they do for the officer hastily making a error in judgement (performing his duties and becoming defensive engaged in an altercation while doing so).

    Yet, the professional here, should lead by example. I do recall talking about police retraining to include human relations training, since they've lost that connection to the very people they are to protect. Shoot first, talk later? That's not exactly talking down a dangerous person, that's a trigger moment where uttering a word is much more difficult than pulling the trigger. If I can't count on my public protector to actually talk to me but rather handle me roughly, and have his gun ready to use, we are living in a very dangerous country.

    If you seriously want me to consider police as humans, you'd better not forget that so are all the victims. Cut each other some slack and drop the drama and urgency to use a weapon. And yeah, it goes for BOTH sides.
    That's unbelievable. Stop the drama and urgency? Why not just take guns away from the cops?
    It's like talking to a wall. I swear to Bob.
    I know. You keep harping on this idea of trying to talk a guy that is about to kill you down. When most of us know in the real world it doesn't work like that.
    Post edited by Last-12-Exit on
  • HughFreakingDillon
    HughFreakingDillon Winnipeg Posts: 39,473
    backseatLover12 said:

    And although Brian feels that the word "obsessed" with death is a strong word (it is), it doesn't negate the apathy all over this thread in regards to life in general, and how death is deemed an appropriate punishment by most here in situations fitting enough to accommodate the officer.

    Some here place outlandish regard for police officers, place them above the law, saintly, even. They are humans, they make errors, they take advantage of situations. They are supposed to be professionals, they are supposed to be capable of being a hero, a protector and getting bad guys. But they no longer should be viewed as heroes if the bad cops are taking advantage of the title, they are no longer heroes or protectors if they shoot first, talk later. The sooner we acknowledge that they are errored humans just like us, the sooner we solve our issues - race and brutality issues.

    The drama in your posts is underwhelming.

    By The Time They Figure Out What Went Wrong, We'll Be Sitting On A Beach, Earning Twenty Percent.




  • backseatLover12
    backseatLover12 Posts: 2,312
    The drama of the denial you people live in is really unbelievable. (Not specifically you, just all of you).
  • brianlux
    brianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 43,662
    edited March 2015
    Fail.
    Post edited by brianlux on
    "It's a sad and beautiful world"
    -Roberto Benigni

  • HughFreakingDillon
    HughFreakingDillon Winnipeg Posts: 39,473
    brianlux said:

    Serious issues sometimes call for serious emotions. I don't see what's wrong with that.


    But sweeping ridiculous false statements like bsl keeps spewing get annoying after a while. "Apathy for life", "regarding cops as saints". To be blunt, it's fucking stupid and childish to make statements like this to try to just get a reaction from others, especially when the evidence points to the direct opposite. We can discuss without half the thread being many of us refuting these ridiculous claims.
    By The Time They Figure Out What Went Wrong, We'll Be Sitting On A Beach, Earning Twenty Percent.




  • HughFreakingDillon
    HughFreakingDillon Winnipeg Posts: 39,473
    backseatLover12 said:

    The drama of the denial you people live in is really unbelievable. (Not specifically you, just all of you).

    And yet you don't understand how this can be viewed as coming off as self-righteous? Really?

    By The Time They Figure Out What Went Wrong, We'll Be Sitting On A Beach, Earning Twenty Percent.




  • brianlux
    brianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 43,662
    edited March 2015
    Fail.


    Post edited by brianlux on
    "It's a sad and beautiful world"
    -Roberto Benigni

  • backseatLover12
    backseatLover12 Posts: 2,312
    HughFreakingDillon said:

    brianlux said:

    Serious issues sometimes call for serious emotions. I don't see what's wrong with that.


    But sweeping ridiculous false statements like bsl keeps spewing get annoying after a while. "Apathy for life", "regarding cops as saints". To be blunt, it's fucking stupid and childish to make statements like this to try to just get a reaction from others, especially when the evidence points to the direct opposite. We can discuss without half the thread being many of us refuting these ridiculous claims.
    HughFreakingDillon said:

    backseatLover12 said:

    The drama of the denial you people live in is really unbelievable. (Not specifically you, just all of you).

    And yet you don't understand how this can be viewed as coming off as self-righteous? Really?

    Explain how it is reality to believe that there is no police brutality especially with minority groups in the U.S.
  • Last-12-Exit
    Last-12-Exit Charleston, SC Posts: 8,661
    Why explain that? There certainly is police brutality in this country. And yes, at times, people are killed as a result. Retraining entire police forces will not solve this. You cant turn someone that is a racist. No amount of training will do that. You try and weed those people out in the interviewing process.

    Cops are trained well. Ask a cop how much training they go through. Not just at the academy, but throughout their career. Want to know what can stem "police brutality"? People listening to the cops. Every day Joe's can stop reaching for a cops gun. Hell, you don't have to respect the people that protect you, but you sure as hell have to listen to them.

    This thread asked in the OP what happened in this Wisconsin shooting. I haven't heard anything different from what I posted in the OP. If that's what happened, then it is another justified shooting and another reason for people to bash the police because of the actions OF A CRIMINAL. Personally, until body cameras are mandatory on all cops (which I'm in favor of) I will take the word of a cop over a criminal unless there's evidence that supports the contrary.

    What really is baffling to me is the group here that hears none of the evidence but wants to immediately blame the police for the shooting. The Michael Brown case was a perfect example. Nobody knew what actually happened one week after the incident. But some here were ready to convict. Turns out, it was justified. Point is, until all of the evidence is heard, why blame?

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